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 AUTHOR
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 52
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Jesus Lost Years. Page 2 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
I admit to being guilty of hypocrisy, but that dosen't change the fact that you backed away from my challenge....
 -One-
Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 53
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/8/2005 4:24:50 AM
I told you where to find such a thread, did I not? If you wish to debate me on it so be it, if not so be it.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 58
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/18/2005 1:30:03 PM


Completely alone floating in darkness, no light to define you as anything, no one to know you exsist, for infinty.


That doesn't sound too bad a fate to me. Never have to worry about bills, putting out the trash, eating, health, going to work, getting up early, traffic, nagging wives, bratty kids, used car salesmen, the in-laws, etc etc etc.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 61
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/19/2005 12:30:03 PM
I know there are plenty of books but when A biography is done does i entail the entire life cycle? No only to what is relevant. He was a carpenter, it was thirty yrs old that began his journey of revelance his learning time was stated that he knew so much of the scriptures that the Pharises always asked who is this boy (age 10).

Some of these books might be found who knows but the imortant aspects of the life of Jesus are here with us now. that's for sure, for it's God's awesome powerfull ways that make this happen.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 7/28/2005
Msg: 63
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/19/2005 12:58:53 PM
I did not mean it come across as such, the items of more revelance are what is written, I am sure there was more to what was then, but nothing that was not already stated in repeatition of the actual Bible. So another way of saying this sure there is something amungst those years but I am sure alot of it is repeated again in the actual Bible. For an Apostle wrote
John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 69
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/19/2005 7:31:12 PM


1. There is no historical information what-so-ever that places Jesus in India.


There doesn't appear to be any historical evidence that Jesus even existed.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 71
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/19/2005 8:05:57 PM
Legends are a far cry from historical records.
 shadowgirl58
Joined: 7/24/2005
Msg: 73
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/21/2005 7:29:41 AM
He happened to be indulged in Gods work i would hope.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 74
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/21/2005 7:54:49 AM


just for the "record"... what do you consider a "historical record" ??
...
5. "My monogamous marriage" by Bill Clinton ?


Well, strictly speaking, monogamy is being married to one person. So it really was a monogamous marriage.

Now, if I wrote a book called "The Life of Jesus" and it was totally made up, would that be a historical record? No, it would be a work of fiction. No secular record from the time of Jesus exists, that mentions Jesus. The two references in Josephus are forgeries. There are over 200 religious texts that mention him. Most of these the early church decided were forgeries (e.g. the Epistle of Barnabis). Most of the NT was written by Paul, who only met Jesus in visions. Their historical value is dubious to say the least. Anyway, Paul gives very little biographical information about Jesus. Let's look at the Gospels. Well Mark and Luke were allegedly written by two people who had apparently never met Jesus. The Gospel of John is of such a late that that it's very difficult to believe it was written by the Apostle John. It was more likely written by a John in the early church. So who knows if it's even reliable. Matthew borrowed heavily from Mark. If Matthew was one of the Apostles, inspired by God, why would he need to plagariaze from someone who never met Jesus? The Gospels value as historical records is in doubt.

No historical record is going to be considered free from error/fiction. So before trusting something in a document we need to compare it to other imperfect documents for corroboration. When we do this the case for Jesus' existence is mighty weak, if not non-existent.
 samyred
Joined: 3/6/2005
Msg: 75
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/21/2005 7:41:05 PM
He existed.... no argue for me about it, I tried to read all the posts... apparently no one mentioned the theory of Jesus being in India!
Some historical references say that Jesus was in India the land of wisdom and spirituality!

No solid proof... but can you prove it wrong? after all this is where the sect of the three wise men is (east India)!


Samy
 HedonistDrifter
Joined: 7/23/2005
Msg: 79
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/26/2005 5:47:54 PM
The Bible is a work of fiction with as much historical basis as the Three Musketeers

The three musketeers a work of fiction? OK, now I'm offended…

OT-my guess is he was being a "teenager"...stayin out late with his "long haired friends", turning water into wine, carving "grafitti" onto walls....Giving Mary and Joseph a hard time in general...you know teenager stuff…lol...
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 80
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History
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 8/28/2005 9:21:54 PM
Countibil, I recently provided some references to Jesus from the Talmud. They were not flattering references and they were contemporary with the time Jesus lived. As most Christians knew nothing about these until recently and was only uncovered by a Jewish person, it is doubtful that they were tampered with.

We are not so sure that the references in Josephus were forgeries. It cannot be proved one way or another.

The Epistle of Barnabas to my knowledge is not considered a forgery. It is just not considered scripture. It is a part of the pseudopigrapha.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 82
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 9/5/2005 10:21:16 AM


Countibil, I recently provided some references to Jesus from the Talmud. They were not flattering references and they were contemporary with the time Jesus lived. As most Christians knew nothing about these until recently and was only uncovered by a Jewish person, it is doubtful that they were tampered with.


I agree that tampering seems unlikely. The real question is whether these references to Jesus are references to Jesus of the Bible. This site:

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html

argues that they are not or refer to the person the Jesus story was based on. I tend towards the theory that Jesus of Nazareth was based on Yeshu ben Pandira who lived around 80 BCE.



We are not so sure that the references in Josephus were forgeries. It cannot be proved one way or another.


The Testimonium Flavianum is clearly a forgery:

Antiquities 18.3.3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

Read that again but keep in mind that Josephus was a devout Jew. Do these look the like words of a devout Jew? A Jew would not doubt that Jesus was a human, call him the Christ, say he did wonderful works, say he rose from the dead on the third day, and say the prophets had written about him.

The other reference is more ambiguous.

"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others..."

Jesus is mentioned in passing as the brother of James and is referred to as Christ. The same passage mentions another Jesus. Jesus was a very common name at the time. It's an odd reference because the Roman readership wouldn't have understood the reference to Christ. It's Greek for annointed. James was also a common name back then. It would make sense for James' identity to be further explained by referencing him to someone else. But this Jesus is mentioned nowhere else since we know the first passage is a forgery. One can't help but wonder if the phrase "who was called Christ" was added later by the Christians who had possession of the Josephus manuscript and were responsible for copying it. Because of the doubt surrounding the second passage it's not very good evidence for Jesus.



The Epistle of Barnabas to my knowledge is not considered a forgery.


AFAIK the author never refers to himself as Barnabas.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 83
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History
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 9/5/2005 1:14:05 PM
I have read parts of Barnabas. Whomever the author really was, he believed that the legend of the Phoenix was a real incident.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 86
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 9/6/2005 8:14:52 PM
Seems to me the most plausible explanation of his lost years is that he was growing up just like any other Jew at the time.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 88
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 9/7/2005 6:58:15 PM
j-roc, I agree with you completely. However, the Talmud might give us some insights here. There are some Jesuses mentioned and some have erroniously assumed that they all refer to the same person, Jesus of the Bible. That's unlikely, but it's possible that there may be just two separate Jesuses. The first, Yeshu ben Stadia, lived in the 2nd century AD so a link is not reasonable (most of the Bible had already been written by then). The second is Yeshu ben Pandira. From the Talmud we find out this:

1) Executed on the day before Passover (in agreement with the Gospel of John).
2) Escaped persecution by travelling to Egypt.
3) Returned from Egypt and became an idolator.
4) Had close contacts with government officials.
5) Had 5 disciples, one named Matai.
6) Executed in Jerusalem.

These are not unlike some events of Jesus's life. The story of Joseph of Arimathea is interesting because Roman habit was to let corpses stay on the cross and become food for birds and other animals. However, if Joseph was of high rank in the political machine it's feasable that he could have got Jesus's body from the cross in accordance with the story.

The chronology is a bit off here though. Yeshu ben Pandira lived at approximately 80 BCE. But the Bible itself gives contradictory information about when Jesus was born. This Yeshu was executed for sedition. If we assume the Bible was watered down in it's anti-Rome stance after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD then it's likely that Jesus was really a seditionist executed by Rome.

There's biblical evidence that links Jesus with the Essenes, the Zealots (a radical anti-Rome faction started by Judas the Galilean), and the Sicarii (1st century Jewish terrorist organization). Jewish prophets predicted a Messiah (possibly two, one kingly the other priestly) who would rid Israel of her enemies and make her free under a Davidic throne. If Jesus was a Zealot who thought himself the Messiah he could have easily got himself executed (because history records many such people at the time) for sedition. It would only be later that his supposed kingdom became a heavenly kingdom not an earthly one.
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 90
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History
Jesus Lost Years.
Posted: 9/7/2005 10:53:37 PM
J-roc, other than this book what else have you read on the subject?
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