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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > What would you do, if you were a god?      Home login  
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 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 101
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What would you do, if you were a god?Page 5 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
^ Hey, just make a tree that does grow money.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 102
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/12/2013 6:23:52 PM
HUH?? So a person with a gun comes up to me, and says, your money or I will shoot, I smile and give them my money willingly, there was no crime comitted? Perhaps in your spare time, you should go to law school too, seeing how divinity school did not teach much about the law. There is nothing left to say that hasn't been said so many times that this is now silly. You will believe, mistakenly, what you want to believe.

When you do something willingly, it is by freely exercising your will (what do you think the word "will" in "willingly" refers to?). Since, according to your logic, the victim had free will, they did it willingly. Make sense?

Like I said earlier, with your scenario and explanation, there is going to have to be a gradient of free will. As one of the choices becomes less dire, according to you, then the victum somehow seems to aquire more free will................

We have the freedom to do somethings and do not have the freedom to do other things (e.g., we have the freedom to drive a car but not the freedom to run people over with it). Similarly, there are numerous constraints that can prevent us from exercising our will - the less constraints there are the freer our choices. We can have more freedom or less freedom, there is always a gradient.

Again, your proposition that anytime we have a choice we have free will means that whatever we do we do freely, thus willingly. This is a ludicrous proposition.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 103
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/13/2013 10:22:48 PM
In your example above, would we have the free will TO run people over with it?

YES, we would.

I thought it was pretty clear from my example: no, I do not. There are many powerful constraints that prevent me from making such a choice, thus I could not make it freely, thus I do not have free will to make it.

Again, your assertion that anytime that we can make a choice we have free will means that any choice that we make is done using free will, thus we do it willingly, meaning that a robber can never be prosecuted since their "victim" gave their money to the robber willingly. I've pointed out how ludicrous this is, yet you still fail to get it!

Furthermore, your assertion that free will is absolute (either we have it or don't have it) is typically restricted to discussion of determinism vs non-determinism - which has nothing to do with this discussion (it can easily be shown that neither determinism nor non-determinism lead to free will so such a discussion is moot in the first place).

The definition of "will" (from Wikipedia):

Will, in philosophy, refers to a property of the mind, and an attribute of acts intentionally committed. Actions made according to a person's will are called “willing” or “voluntary” and sometimes pejoratively “willful” or “at will”. In general, "will" does not refer to one particular or most preferred desire but rather to the general capacity to have such desires and act decisively based on them, according to whatever criteria the willing agent applies. The will is in turn important within philosophy because a person's will is one of the most distinct parts of their mind, along with reason and understanding. It is one of the things which makes a person who they are, and it is especially important in ethics, because it is the part which determines whether people act, at least when they act deliberately.


"Free will" can thus be defined as the ability of a person to carry out their will, done deliberately and voluntarily ("willingly"), in accordance with their desire. If something restricts a person from carrying out their will then their free will cannot be expressed (once again, from Wikipedia from their article on free will):

Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors. Factors of historical concern have included metaphysical constraints (such as logical, nomological, or theological determinism), physical constraints (such as chains or imprisonment), social constraints (such as threat of punishment or censure, or structural constraints), and mental constraints (such as compulsions or phobias, neurological disorders, or genetic predispositions). The principle of free will has religious, legal, ethical, and scientific implications.


If a person is not free to carry out their will, do they have free will? According to me, no. But according to you, everyone has "free will" all the time because they can make choices, regardless of what they desire (this seems to go against everything that we know about "free will", as well as "will" itself). Like I said many times before, you are using your own definition of free will, instead of trying to understand how free will has traditionally been understood.
 RyanohRyan
Joined: 11/12/2012
Msg: 104
What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/14/2013 3:39:02 PM
I would create my own new universe with one big bang.

I would not get bored because I would simply choose to exist outside of time.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 105
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/14/2013 7:08:41 PM

So that means that YOU had a CHOICE to make. Whether or not you made ONE of the choices that were available to you, you STILL had a choice to make.

But that choice wasn't free, which is my point. Although free choice implies choice, it doesn't work the other way around (that is, having a choice doesn't automatically imply that it's a free choice). Just because we have will (the desire or motivation to do things) doesn't mean that we have free will (the largely unconstrained ability to carry out our will).

Although some debates on free will are based on the simple ability to make a choice, that is largely within the context of determinism and non-determinism. The thing is, neither of them actually lead to free will in any meaningful sense (determinism leads to fate, so no free will, while non-determinism leads to randomness, so no free will). This is why I take the compatibilists approach, which defines free will based on constraints to one's will.


The whole conversation on free will was started because some religions believe that most hevaenly beings do not have free will. This was used by Lucifer in an argument with Lucifer saying that since the beings cannot make a choice, IF they were able to make a choice, some of them would choose to side with Lucifer. God then created Earth, and gave humanity FREE WILL, to choose as they want, to show just how that would work out................ As they say, the rest is history.

Frankly, I've never heard of such a story, even as a Christian. Is there strong scriptural support for such a story, or is it something people believe outside of the bible? (you know, like Roman Catholics and the Immaculate Conception)
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 106
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/15/2013 5:01:37 AM
While the Lucifer story is not very widely accepted, it is widely accepted by enough rather established major religions so as to be a topic of discussion when the question is asked as to why is it that God gave humans the capability to sin. God did that by giving them FREE WILL, so that they can make the wrong choice, but later be forgiven. This is not so "out there" as to not be ever discussed.

Well, it's not contained in the bible so sounds like Christian mythology (much like Judaism and Lilith, or the story of Abraham and the broken god statues).


So, since no human had ejaculated in Mary, it was then called "immaculate". That is the way I look at it, and again, that is a result of belief based on faith.

Um, you do know what Immaculate Conception is, right? (from Wikipedia)

The Immaculate Conception is a dogma of the Catholic Church maintaining that from the moment when she was conceived in the womb, the Blessed Virgin Mary was kept free of original sin ...

The Immaculate Conception should not be confused with the perpetual virginity of Mary or the virgin birth of Jesus; it refers to the conception of Mary by her mother, Saint Anne.

In Roman Catholicism, Mary is free from Original Sin, just like Jesus (she basically passed on her sinless nature to Jesus). Of course this is nowhere supported in the bible, Catholics just made it up because it "just had to be true".


Tomatoe, Toematoe, (read phonetically)........ YOU have your belief, I have mine, and that is what we are arguing, our disparate beliefs.

If you want to see free will as something based on determinism / non-determinism, then why don't you discuss it in such a way? Saying that we have "choice" doesn't really answer the question, since there is no actual "choice" in the first place if determinism is true (and if non-determinism is true then your "choice" is actually just random chance).
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 107
What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/15/2013 9:04:12 AM
if I were a god, I would fart out billions and of tiny little, very limited but very proud versions of me who have lots of big ideas but totally forget who they are so they can get completely (completely) lost in the drama, for ages and ages. they would eventually get around to crying on something called the internet about how they aren't getting sufficiently laid while scratching themselves and drinking beer. half of them would be wondering when I will finally take time out of my busy, busy day to consider their very personal needs, especially after all that careful ritualistic begging. that would take up about 10 pages of human history at least.

in no particular order, i would watch them try very, very hard to "evolve" while simultaneously polluting themselves and everything around them. I would delight in their efforts to kill, torture and maim millions of others in my name and consider the cosmic irony of that for at least a little while. after taking a nap, I would plant a few carefully crafted thoughtforms about saviors and hostile alien races just to make them feel insecure about their puny little place in the vast vacuum of space. then I would maintain my inscrutable façade by yawning, stretching and blowing up the entire galaxy to start over.... whoosh. one day of Brahma, done.

well, that was interesting. maybe the next batch will be smarter.
 pfif
Joined: 8/8/2012
Msg: 108
What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/15/2013 10:12:51 AM
I'd buy Janice a Mercedez Benz (she asked nicely).
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 109
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/15/2013 3:40:39 PM

Two things........ First, I thought that you of all people would get the bit of humor when I wrote:
"So, since no human had ejaculated in Mary, it was then called "immaculate". "

Seeing how I disagree with just about most things that the catholic church holds, it is not up to me to defend their verison of Christianity............ just a little attempt at a little chuckle.

Again, did you not know what Immaculate Conception actually meant?


When did I EVER say that I was basing my belief in free will on determinism? YOU are the one that brought that up, and keeps on hammering away at it. Like the definition in Wiki said, free will is CONTRASTED to determinism......... that means the oposite of. I have been scratching my head wondering why you kept bring up determinism, and until you said "If you want to see free will as something based on determinism / non-determinism", I was at a loss as to why you were even bringing it up, but I gave you the benfit of the doubt. Now that I know why you brought it up, I understand what you were trying to say to me. I never equated the concept of determinism and the concept of free will............ that is YOUR doing. I don't think that they even belong in the same sentence.

As I said before (pay attention please), the only time that anyone thinks of free will as an absolute principle (either you have it, or you don't) it is in the context of determinism / non-determinism. Free will is always treated as a gradient outside of such discussions (how must free will do I have?). You seem to be confused about the category here, or are just using your own made-up definitions of things.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/15/2013 6:44:00 PM
Geez, I hope I pass this test about what Immaculate Conception is................. you know what, who cares what it is, even though the catholics interpretation is that it has something to do with original sin, as it doesn't enter into the conversation on free will, which is where we are. Did I pass the test on catholcism?

You could have just said "no".


Saying that free will is thought of in the context of determinism tells me that you really don't understand what determinism is. Determinism is a very loose belief that things that happen in the future are more or less controlled by the way things are now. Tell me how that in any way has anything to do with free will? There are no gradients of free will; either one has it or one doesn't.......... What does that have to do with the theory that the future is more or less laid out already?

I think you misunderstood something. Once again, the discussion of free will as an absolute concept, which is what you seem to view it as, is usually only thought of within the context of the debate on determinism and non-determinism. This seems to be your take on free will - as long as our actions aren't completely determined (non-determinism) and we can theoretically make different choices, we have free will. I am contrasting this take on free will with the view of compatibilism, which says it doesn't matter if determinism or non-determinism is true - what matters is if we are allowed to freely exercise our will.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/15/2013 8:33:43 PM
Progress......... we are making progress.

You wrote:
"as long as our actions aren't completely determined (non-determinism) and we can theoretically make different choices, we have free will. "

OH, so tantilizingly close........ I would re-word what you said to the following: as long as our actions aren't determined at all, and we can actually make choices that WE desire to make, we have free will. Now that I think about it, it is not that close after all. I see determinism as something that can happen in the future to us, and that occurance can be sort of foreseen by looking at the totality of our circumstances today. CONTRASTING that is free will, whereby we cannot see what will happen to us, and that our future will only be determined AFTER we make our choices based on free will.

Well, like I said before, you believe in non-determinism, where not everything is the result of cause-and-effect and where different choices can be made. However, the only way to square that logically is to say that some things can happen without cause - that is, randomly. However, how is randomness supposed to lead to free will? If our thoughts are the result of random events, then we don't actually control it (so my decision to eat teriyaki for lunch today wasn't my decision at all, but the result of random chance).

What's usually claimed is that whatever makes us who we are (the "soul" as they say in religion) can act without being constrained by the law of causality, but that is basically just making an exception for ourselves. It sort of reminds me of a student in a philosophy class saying that she believed in evolution - except for human beings (basically, she thought of human beings as special, not constrained by the normal rules of nature - human ego perhaps?). The thing is, I can understand such thinking, since I feel that I am an autonomous creature and that I can make any choice I want. However, what I've learned about physics, biology and the physical brain makes that highly unlikely. Can I choose something against my own nature, or what the processes in my brain make me to do? Can I defy the physical workings of my brain? No, I cannot (my brain IS me, and I cannot defy myself - that makes no sense) The ultimate conclusion that I have come to is that we live in a determined universe, where the physical state of my brain determines precisely what I will do next. Basically, I can't help being who I am. That gives me some reassurance, since I can be consistent with myself, think logically about my actions and plan in a predictable manner, but it also means that the idea of free will as acting outside of causality is no longer tenable.

This is why I am a compatibilist, as defined by Wikipedia:

Those who define free will otherwise, without reference to determinism, are called compatibilists, because they hold determinism to be compatible with free will. Some compatibilists hold even that determinism is necessary for free will, arguing that choice involves preference for one course of action over another, a process that requires some sense of how choices will turn out.

As long as there is no outside agent controlling me (e.g., someone putting wires in my brain to control my thoughts and actions) or someone intentionally and unnecessarily preventing me from pursuing my desires and preferences, then I am free. That is, as long as I am allowed to be my own agent, I have free will. This is why I say that if some external agent (e.g., God) is putting limitations on my actions, by the threat of punishment or otherwise, then that agent is limiting and/or denying my free will.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/16/2013 3:37:12 PM
We don't always have fee will. If we are terrified, we may go into a fight/flight or freeze mode. This is not a choice or a free willingness as we may want to flight or fight but we freeze instead.

I don't believe we are all that free anyway, there are viruses that have a lot of control over our minds and bodies, never mind stupid laws/rules that terrorize us into behaving in ways we don't want to.
 pfif
Joined: 8/8/2012
Msg: 113
What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/16/2013 9:57:05 PM
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rietdijk-Putnam_argument ]

Roger Penrose gives The Andromeda Paradox (shown on that Wikipedia
page) which is a simple example of the consequences of Rietdijk-
Putnam (and the relativity of simultaneity).

In a nutshell, two observers moving past one another on Earth do
not share in identical sets of what constitutes 'now', especially at
far distances, such as in the Andromeda Galaxy.

As a consequence, for the one observer, now includes preparation
for invasion of Earth, by the Andromedean general, delivering
a speech to his troops, while the other (Earth observer) shares
in a now that includes that invasion fleet having already set out
in their spaceships, headed for Earth, a day later in the Andromeda
Galaxy.

Yet, both Earth-bound observers share in the self-same now, as the
one passes by the other in the street.

So, both events in the Andromeda Galaxy are completely certain, yet
they are widely separated events, in local Andromedean time.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 114
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/17/2013 9:13:12 PM
What would you do, if you were a god?

I would wait for mankind to prove that he is a f--- up operating on his own.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 115
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/29/2013 3:10:45 AM
Rape and pillage. That would *never* get stale :)
 Pie_rat_of_the_Caribbean
Joined: 8/22/2013
Msg: 116
What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/29/2013 8:34:57 AM
Give everyone a near death experience by the age of 20
 LennyPane
Joined: 2/2/2011
Msg: 117
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/31/2013 1:04:02 AM
I would answer a question that's been on my mind for the past week: why the hell did kamikazes wear crash helmets?
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 118
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/31/2013 1:20:23 AM
This thread reminds me of the anime Death Note. As ging said on page 1 of this thread, given the knowledge a "god" would posses one would not be anything resembling their current self (this reminds me of Dr. Manhattan). Given the powers of a god while retaining my own current knowledge and state of being, I would probably become much like the character "Light" from Death Note.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/31/2013 1:32:22 AM

I would put the universe on pause while I tried to figure out what the big red button does. Then I'd create an infinite number of test universes with a single altered variable in each one to try to work out what changes I should make. I'd fast-forward them and decide which had the best outcomes based on the usual methods. You know - customer satisfaction surveys . I'd ask on internet forums what people would improve if they were in charge...

Hang on, guess that means we're in a beta-universe? Hope the inhabitants of the final release version of the universe appreciate our bug-reporting efforts here.


You don't by chance play Dust 514 or EVE Online do you? The forums part... I had to ask.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/31/2013 2:18:50 AM
I would write "I'm real, Mofos" across the surface of the moon every so often to avoid credibility issues. I'd also write "you're on your own" so no one could blame me for sh!t they bring upon themselves.


I like this one. This is something that is sorely needed from the supposed christian God. I have often contemplated the nature of the chronicles of the supposed life of Jesus Christ. Given the state of things before these supposed events, which took place during the life of JC, we were doing very well with the progression/evolution of thought through philosophy. After these events things took a drastic turn for the worse, ultimately resulting in the dark ages.

Playing upon the mythology of Christ/god, the actions and knowledge supposedly imparted by JC and their subsequent effects upon humanity (which are still on going) these acts do not seem like the actions of any benevolent god that I can concive of - as Tomas Jefferson once said ~ question with boldness even the existence of a god, for if there be one he must more approve of the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear ~ this is the benevolent god I have in mind. In context with the christian mith, the actions of JC seem to me to be more in line with the desires/goals of Satan. It is said that Satan is the great trickster. It would be fitting for Satan's emissary to this world to take on the mantle of the son of god. As well it would make sense for a benevolent god not to interfere, given that he has so much time in which to wait for the things Satan has screwed up to correct themselves (much as I think they are beginning to correct themselves now/historically relitivly recently). If a supposed god knows the outcome, and the outcome is still satisfactory, then there is no need to interfere. Or perhapse Satan's actions, in the supposed form of JC, were alowed/engineered for some esoteric but necessary reason...

These are all of course just simple musings over these miths.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 121
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/31/2013 10:13:35 AM
^ A cliche' passed around within religious circles (christian ones, at least) is that the devil's greatest trick is to convince people that he doesn't exist.

Well, a human being has to use his brain and think...what really would be a great deception along these lines?

I think that it's not him making you think he doesn't exist, but it's him agreeing that the devil does exist, but tricking you as to who exactly is the devil...who's the good guy and who's the bad guy.

You analyze the axioms of thought, behavior, and morality derivation of religion, objectively, and you come away thinking that it's all precisely what a devil would do if he were to construct a religion...the bible, for example, is just the kind of book that a devil would write.

"Religion is like the devil telling everyone to beware the devil."
- me
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 122
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 8/31/2013 8:32:05 PM

You don't by chance play Dust 514 or EVE Online do you? The forums part... I had to ask.

Nope, sorry dude. This god steers clear of massively multiplayer online games - too addictive. The forums part was a slightly ironic reference to this thread.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 123
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What would you do, if you were [THE] god?
Posted: 9/8/2013 7:14:20 PM
better weather, no sickness or death.
[no mutations]
don't have worldly people running the show.

its a good start, you know, the universe, dna, and all.
 April1963
Joined: 6/7/2013
Msg: 124
What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 9/8/2013 8:21:14 PM
I would do this:

1-Men: to menstruate,
2-Men: get pregnant
3-Men: have the babies

:)
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 125
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What would you do, if you were a god?
Posted: 9/9/2013 2:46:57 AM
April1963:

Hey, in a previous post, I already showed how thoughtful I would be along those lines if I were god -


I would change how the human female's reproductive system operates -

- Alternating between being infertile for 3 months, and fertile for 1 week.

- No menstrual or other pain or extreme swings.

- Not as much difficulty with stimulation and ability to orgasm via one thing versus the other.

- Males: More typical that there is no recuperation period between "shots", and capable of several per session.
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