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 Hamilton12345
Joined: 3/29/2012
Msg: 76
What about for the people who don't want kids?Page 4 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

Get a few drinks in a lot of parents and they'll admit that there are times (or a lot of times) when they're envious of the freedom that they gave up by having kids, or regrets over being married and stuck in family situations, etc.


Oh the good old "in vino veritas" logic. People say a lot things they don't mean after having a few drinks in them. Never see the drunk with his arm around some guy saying I love this guy, he is my best friend, when you know he can't stand him? Sure some guy with a few drinks under his belt and reminiscing about the good old single days may say that and what does he do when he gets home? Opens the doors, looks in on his sleeping kids and thinks "no don't miss the single life after all"


Parents don't hear other parents talking about regretting being parents because they're worried that other parents will judge them as not loving their kids or something. They also don't hear the condescending "you'll change your mind," or "what about when you're old" or "well what's the point of life" type nonsense, because, again, they're parents


I seriously call BS on that one. How do you know what parents talk about to other parents? You don't. And yes I have said that those who do not want children may change their mind (not will just may) because I know enough people who have changed their mind to know that this is true. I know people who have left it too late and regret not having kids and I also know people who have absolutely no regrets about not having children. The you may change your mind is not condescending, it is fact.


Not directed at anyone in particular but perhaps to a close minded society that has no qualms with laying on the guilt and shame rather heavily towards those who to choose to follow their heart instead of a cultural institution. No, it's not respectful or remotely considerate to offer your little lectures of "maybe you will change your mind". How would parents like it if we told them to drop the kids off at an orphanage when they incessantly complain about the little varmits.


As for these statements. You pick the people who lay the guilt and shame. Most people really don't care. Good Gawd you would think those of us who said you may change your mind laid a great insult on those with different choices. Guess what? Some people do change their mind, so why would I not say you may change your mind?


Doth protest too much?


You when I read these types of statements and the jealously comments etc, I really do have to wonder where they are coming from. What is it about happy parents that makes you so uncomfortable that you have to make these kind of bold sweeping statements? Can't you just be happy with your choices and let me be happy with mine?

And back to the OP again. If you don't want kids, you shouldn't have them, I do think that it may be hard to find a woman your age who doesn't want kids. What I am about to say know may be harsh but it is the truth. As abmcmurray has stated, women with higher education and career goals are more likely to be the ones who do not want children and sorry OP, this type of woman is not so likely to be interested in a guy with a high school education that works in a print shop. Harsh but true, you are going to have an even harder time finding someone in your age range that does not want kid.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 77
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/5/2013 9:47:31 AM
The large difference is that most people who do not have children can EASILY have children if they want to, and those that do have children can't undo it. Well, not legally, at least.

Good point. Yes, you will find more people who have some level of jealousy, even if they wouldn't trade what they have in for the world, amongst those who have kids VS those who don't and never were trying to have kids.

It's kind of hard for someone to be jealous of something they CAN do.

True. There are people who to some extent do want kids but wisely aren't going to try and get pregnant or their SO pregnant, or rush to marriage for it. Those people may have a bit of jealousy ... and at the same time positive feelings of not going down the wrong route. And if they do feel that social pressure from friends & family & upbringing, they may have some jealousy of fitting-in, even though they know that logically they made the better of choices not to produce offspring given their situation.

People say a lot things they don't mean after having a few drinks in them.

And it's a key time to say or do things they do mean or want, that they otherwise wouldn't do. We all know that. You can't say "oh, it's just something they didn't mean!" if they had a few drinks. If they're wasted, that can apply more because their sense of reality is warped -- not just the ice broken or the PC coat being hung at the door.

He's not saying or implying that a mass majority of people with kids are jealous of those who don't have them. And jealousy doesn't mean they would trade it in -- at all. But when you've been a "real" adult for a while (over 30), and you're not in position to have kids and don't have kids, and you have many family & friends who have kids -- you will hear things that:
(a) Have a tone of sympathy, as if you're at a loss or something (like not having a job or having a sucky job)
(b) Expressing at least good-spirited jealousy. Ex: "Man, that's awesome -- I would love to be able to [this and that] -- make the most of it."

It's much the same when you're in a stretch of time of being single or basically single (more than just 'seeing' someone). There can be sympathy held by some, and jealousy held by some. And it's not rare or uncommon -- it's quite common. But that doesn't mean they "go off" -- that's more rare, or something grandma may feel so strongly about.

It's not high-school but a common human thing to want to make others they know and have known, generally fit into their circle/lifestyle if it varies so much. To what extent obviously varies. But it doesn't require a drunken stupor for someone to express that you're at a lower or higher state due to your not-so-common situation. Why? For most people, it leads to a different lifestyle. To some, it's strongly different. They may have degrees of jealousy that they CAN'T do that even if they wanted to for a while -- just that alone, even if they don't crave that at all and would never think to turn having their kinds in for the world (that'd be silly) -- it's still to some degree common/popular to have a degree of jealousy at some points in their lives. Some strong, some what they wouldn't call jealousy. And some -- far from it! It's the opposite and look down upon the other. Or a combination of both!

Again, I think it's stronger when it comes to people who have been married for X-number of years looking at someone who's not young and is more or less single, no kids, etc.

When it comes to the having-kids-thing when one's over 25 and not in position to have any -- I think you'll more often find the signs of sympathy or jealous among those who are more close family & friends. It's not rare or all that uncommon at all. Something one should expect -- it's the "high school" thing that is part of human nature to some degree among many people out there, whether they're 30 or 70. Just how humans tend to be in society, although it's becoming less and less as decades roll on.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 78
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 8:25:39 AM

Thus why those with children to be more likely to have feelings of resentment or jealousy behind their statements than those that don't.

What utter and complete bull-pockey. That assumes, first of all, that those people think being childless is better and that's simply not true. Many people think having kids is the single more rewarding they can do; for them, children and family come first. Other people might not be quite so dedicated, but they still feel children are a special blessing and responsibility. And still other people don't see the point of kids at all.

Also people are, for the most part, happy with the choices they make - it's been demonstrated that once a person has made a choice, they proceed to validate that choice for themselves, regardless of how doubtful they may have been previously. If people didn't do that, they'd spend their life constantly second-guessing, or be unable to make a choice at all. (Read: Stumbling on Happiness, by Daniel Gilbert).


A fertile person that can easily date and has choice of multiple sexual partners if need be is -not- going to be jealous of a single parent, ever

More bull-pockey. There are many childless people who will *monentarily* envy those with kids, just as there are many parents who will *momentarily* envy those who are childless.

Life is full of differnt paths you can take, and each time you choose one path over another, you lose some options and gain others. There is nothing inherently *better* about having kids or remaining childless, but for anyone to assume the other side must be jealous and *their* side would never be ridiculous. IMO, and all that.
 abmccray
Joined: 8/3/2008
Msg: 79
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 1:02:59 PM
You're missing the big point. It is more likely for a person to feel jealousy for something they CAN'T have as opposed to something they DON'T have but CAN get. People don't get envious of things they can actually get - but they often do when it's something they don't have.

My post was in response to the idea that was expressed by some people - that the anti and pro statements are coming from the same place, when they aren't. There's a place that one side CAN be coming from that is not applicable to the other side.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 80
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 1:37:19 PM

That assumes, first of all, that those people think being childless is better and that's simply not true.

First, people's feelings vary through periods of time. Second, there can be people who think childless is better (at a certain point) -- but that's not the focus, as it's not a requirement.

It does not assume people have to think childless is better. Not at all. They can and will many times think childless is worse, and yet Still be jealous. There's a concept called mixed feelings. Most wouldn't give up their kids or "re-do" -- although some might -- it's that they can't change it, and they see grass on the other side of the fence that they Can't Have. This feeling isn't limited to toddlers & teenagers. It's a common human thing. It doesn't have to be strong, it doesn't have to be high-pitched -- it's implied, said outright, etc. Not by all couples or single moms/dads. But once you get older, more and more of friends & family do have kids of course -- and when without kids or aiming to have kids -- you see that come out, sorry.

Someone could have wanted to have kids, and every once in a while that piece of them that still does can well up, and even though they have no regrets about not having kids, they can feel jealous when spending time with a great family. It doesn't require 100% one way or another to feel jealousy. Many people who DO feel jealous -- they don't know it or don't think of it that way at all. Again, part of the human condition.

There are many childless people who will *monentarily* envy those with kids, just as there are many parents who will *momentarily* envy those who are childless.

Most people have to go out of their way not to have kids. Oh, don't get me wrong -- there are those who've always wanted kids and they could be jealous -- especially the infertile types (genetically or female past the age). But rule that out, and you have the sense of control, which the opposing side does not have.

What draws jealousy is something you can't (feasibly) have yourself. Seeing a greener grass that you CAN'T have, for some who see & understand that, at certain points at least, will have a feeling of jealousy.

For fertile people who aren't so young, and choose not to have kids -- you're going to see less potential of jealousy than those with kids and have issue with those who don't as they do. Such people who do have jealousy who have kids highly likely don't even know they're jealous.

Much can be said for being single for a good while & liking it VS those in a mult-year LTR/married. Which one has more freedom? The former. Which one has something more to be potentially jealous about? The latter. Why? One has control, one doesn't so much. They can't just up and walk, nor do they many times want to anyway.

When single for a while & liking it, when older but still young enough to hit the town, hang out, etc. -- you'll hear "I want to live vicariously through you" or "Oh, I wish I could do [this and that]". You will much less less likely hear it form the other side when someone's single AND liking it. That's not to say that the person in the relationship has to be unhappy and "uggh/stuck" in something they don't want. Not at all.

But when it comes to kids -- that's where it's lock-down. And many wouldn't trade it in for the world! But that doesn't mean there's no jealousy or envy, positive or negative, commonly had sometimes. There's a reason for it.

I guess you could make a similar case about those with kids who get much time away from their kids VS others who don't and are very restricted but love being their kids immensely.

Control vs no-control is an instigator.
 Hamilton12345
Joined: 3/29/2012
Msg: 81
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 4:18:39 PM
My biggest problem with the whole jealous thing is what exactly is it that I was suppose to jealous of?

Going on vacation to Europe, did that before kids and with two teenagers and I tell the trip with teenagers was much more fun.

Pack the car and take off for the weekend? Did that with babies, toddlers, tweens and teens.

Go to the bar? Meh, lost interest in the bar scene when I was 21.

Go for a nice dinner? Problem with that is I am an awesome cook and except for the very most expensive of restaurants, the food usually disappoints me so I prefer to entertain at home. No problem with kids.

Go to Disneyland, been there, done that, have the t-shirt and had a blast with the kids.

Caribbean, had more fun when I went with the kids than when I went with a group of adults.

Hey we were poor so we scrimped and saved for every one of those vacations which made them all the more pleasurable. Now that I can afford to do what I want when I want, not enjoying it nearly as much!

So again, tell me, what is you are doing that I should be/have been jealous of? Still not seeing it.
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 82
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 4:30:54 PM
"Now that I can afford to do what I want when I want, not enjoying it nearly as much!"

That is on you. If you can't enjoy lifestyle after children, it is because you still need to develop a without children lifestyle that makes you happy.

All parents have to go through the empty nest learning experience, and enjoy the next phase of life. Or they can sit around wishing their children had stayed children forever.

Your children gave you a fruitful life according to you. Now it is time to learn how to be fruitful without children.
 Hamilton12345
Joined: 3/29/2012
Msg: 83
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 5:26:12 PM

That is on you. If you can't enjoy lifestyle after children, it is because you still need to develop a without children lifestyle that makes you happy.


Wow, you assumed that this had to do with the kids and not to do with the satisfaction of having scrimp and saved and watch every penny for the vacations. I have developed a lifestyle that includes my children (see a lifestyle without will never happen because they are here for life) and also excludes them while I do things with others my own age (always have done that, part of the what do I have to be jealous of).


All parents have to go through the empty nest learning experience, and enjoy the next phase of life. Or they can sit around wishing their children had stayed children forever.


Again you assume, much as I love my children and couldn't imagine life without them, I am very happy and contented to be living on my own for the very first time in my life. No empty nest learning experience here, it was quite a shock for the kids how easily I went from being mom 24/7 to living and loving my solitary life.


Your children gave you a fruitful life according to you. Now it is time to learn how to be fruitful without children.


Really that makes in sound like I should just cut them out of my life now that they are adults. We all do our things and still find the time to get together regularly. It is called being a family.

And still you can't answer the question. What exactly is it that we are suppose to be jealous of?
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 84
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 5:36:12 PM
"Now that I can afford to do what I want when I want, not enjoying it nearly as much!"

Your words.

"Wow, you assumed that this had to do with the kids and not to do with the satisfaction of having scrimp and saved and watch every penny for the vacations. I have developed a lifestyle that includes my children (see a lifestyle without will never happen because they are here for life) and also excludes them while I do things with others my own age (always have done that, part of the what do I have to be jealous of)."

Please reread your words.

"Really that makes in sound like I should just cut them out of my life now that they are adults. We all do our things and still find the time to get together regularly. It is called being a family."

Cut them out of your life? Where did you get that from.

Please reread your words that I responded to.

I would like to hear back from OP as to what he thinks about all his take on posts from this thread.

OP please share if you have had any change of thoughts on the subject. Have you got any comfort from the fact that many people have made your choice and years later they are happy with their choices.
 Hamilton12345
Joined: 3/29/2012
Msg: 85
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 5:46:38 PM

Hamilton: Now that I can afford to do what I want when I want, not enjoying it nearly as much!"


{quote] Moraima: Your words.

You know you guys really have to stop cherry picking and only using parts of quotes. What I wrote was this


Hey we were poor so we scrimped and saved for every one of those vacations which made them all the more pleasurable. Now that I can afford to do what I want when I want, not enjoying it nearly as much


Where did it say it was about the kids, it was about the satisfaction of saving and hard work to get to the vacation.


Cut them out of your life? Where did you get that from.


From your post that I was responding to?

If you can't enjoy lifestyle after children, it is because you still need to develop a without children lifestyle that makes you happy



Now it is time to learn how to be fruitful without children


And again you have failed to answer that most pressing question. What exactly are we suppose to be jealous of?
Can't answer it can you?

As to the OP, if he doesn't want kids, of course he shouldn't have them. No one should make that type of decision without truly wanting it. Nothing wrong with being childless, it is merely a different lifestyle choice.
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 86
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 5:56:22 PM
"And again you have failed to answer that most pressing question. What exactly are we suppose to be jealous of?
Can't answer it can you?"

Hamilton, I am not one of the posters who said that.

"You know you guys really have to stop cherry picking and only using parts of quotes."

Time you where the one who stopped cherry picking.

"As to the OP, if he doesn't want kids, of course he shouldn't have them. No one should make that type of decision without truly wanting it. Nothing wrong with being childless, it is merely a different lifestyle choice."

At least we agree on that.
 John255317
Joined: 12/28/2012
Msg: 87
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/6/2013 6:48:32 PM
Seems like some on here that chose to not have children get a little "testy" on here. That's sad because like I said before, to each their own, if you didn't have kids and you are older, that is fine, nothing wrong with that at all! Broken record from me once again but most on here are replying to the OP's thread, they are not condemning anyone for not having children. Sometimes you find out more about someone when they get defensive over absolutely nothing.
 LeeleePhoenix
Joined: 12/13/2012
Msg: 88
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/7/2013 8:34:56 PM
At 22, I'm resigned to probably never wanting kids. I'm autistic, and feel it would be selfish to bring a child into the world that would be raised by me, or heaven forbid it ends up like me. Plus, I'm not rich and thus would feel guilty that I'm not providing every opportunity.

It hurts when people ask me if I'm having a kid soon and seem displeased with my response, like I'm obligated to have one. I'd love to if there wasn't extreme responsibility in doing so, at the cost of ruining someone's life.
 Cynderella
Joined: 3/8/2007
Msg: 89
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 9:06:56 AM
The last paragraph by 4ms4me msg 88 hit it home for me!

Ps No dog need be thrown into this fight...even ankle bitters!
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 90
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 10:04:09 AM
My biggest problem with the whole jealous thing is what exactly is it that I was suppose to jealous of?

I'm not saying YOU are running around jealous of things. People can be, to some degree or another, at certain points of time than another, when they lack the freedom to do things that others can. And it's not jealous Not Having Kids. Okay, I guess that can happen, but that's not the reason. It's the by-product of not having kids that people, to certain degrees & times, can be jealous of when they are. It doesn't mean they want to reverse things -- that's not required for one to ever have feelings of jealousy.

A point made earlier is that for those who have been going out of their way Not to have kids, and are still fertile etc, they're going to be less apt to have feelings of jealousy. Because they could have, and they can. There are people who have a bit of envy -- as in other situations where their freedoms are seemingly more restricted than they once were etc -- but nothing that emotionally affects them much or hardly at all. And sometimes it's beyond that to at least some degree, which happens more than you may want to think.

It's not about kids vs no-kids directly. It, like other factors like but single vs in relationship, or having a ton of kids vs only a couple, or having them all grown up, etc. I'm certainly not accusing those with kids all being jealous of those who don't have them. It's just that that jealous does exist out there, not as a rarity, and it makes sense that sure, it's more often than those choosing not to have any -- and the potential jealousy I speak of, is sometimes admittedly or implicitly (more implicitly than one may think).

If there's notably more people than you think, with kids and jealous to some degree at certain times of those who don't have them and are happy, do you take that as implying that your life is a prison or something? Or a knock on people who have kids? It's not! Just a not-so-crazy observation that one should expect, that's all.

I don't see why one would be so hardened on diminishing the notion that it's not too hard to find folks out there with kids who have At Least some implicit not-that-big-a-deal jealousy of particular people who don't. It doesn't imply those raising kids are all riddled with jealousy and/or unhappy.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 91
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 10:59:13 AM

...for almost ten years every time someone asks me when I'm going to have kids and I say, "Oh I have no interest in having a child," I get the response of, "But why?"


A good response to that is when they mention they have kids, say "But why?"

I'm past the age where people always ask me: "When are you going to have kids?" Like most childfree people, I use to get that all of the time. Now, what I get is "Why didn't you have kids?" The answer I give them is: "I never had a reason to have kids." That usually quiets them, because the wheels are spinning in their heads trying to come up with a response to that, but they usually can't come up with one. I think it's because a lot of people have kids either by accident or they've been trained by society that "it's what people do" without giving it any thought. Most people never considered having kids as a choice in life, so people are shocked when they see someone who thought about it and made a choice to not have them.
 usmaleagain
Joined: 8/1/2013
Msg: 92
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 11:06:09 AM

Your feelings may change over time.



No, they won't.


- If you have an "accident", which happens a lot with you play with women, the moment you look into your little newborns' eyes, you'll be hooked for life.



Most women want to have babies in a relationship at some point (unless they have had them already) - it does not matter what they say at first.

If you want to play with women, you better know the rules.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 93
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 11:20:18 AM
I'm trying to figure out if I've ever asked a childless person why they don't/won't/didn't have kids, and honestly I don't recall ever doing that. However, I probably have since it seems to be endemic.

Perhaps the truth is that such a choice is unusual enough that people are curious about it - the same way I might be curious if a guy told me they'd decided to raise become a butler. Butler isn't such a common career choice, especially in a world in which independene and machismo have such high value. So, I'd be curious and inclined to find out what motivated such a choice. It would have nothing to do with approval or disapproval, jealousy or envy; it would be pure curiousity about any choice that goes against the "norm" so to speak. Maybe it's not that all parents in the world are determined to assimilate all the childless people into their particular h3ll, but that they are honestly curious about motivations.

Or maybe not.
 wolvesatthedoor
Joined: 5/8/2013
Msg: 94
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 12:52:09 PM
I'm curious too^^^^^. If a child costs $250,000(or more) to raise to the age of 18, where do unemployed mothers of say three get that kind of money? And how many are there doing it?
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 95
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 1:41:37 PM
4ms4me, I agree I've had people ask out of curiousity in the past, this never bothered me because it was done in a respectful manner, it was the same with friends and family once I explained my views that was the end of it, they new I made the right life choice for me. The problem was always with those that chose to add on a insult, some stamp of abnormality to my choice not to have children because they simply couldn't or wouldn't understand another way of living or thinking, these were people who meant nothing in my life, overall the ones who's opinion I did respect were very accepting and supportive over the years. Why would you be jealous of something you never wanted in the first place, thou I do think it is human nature IMO to imagine "what if".
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 96
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 2:00:25 PM

Why would you be jealous of something you never wanted in the first place, thou I do think it is human nature IMO to imagine "what if".

Absolutely! Who hasn't wondered "what if" I won the lottery, married bob instead of bill, alice instead of mary, taken that job in timbuktu. If I hadn't gotten pregnant in error (after marriage and using BC, though not well enough apparently), I don't know if I'd ever have had kids. I'm not particularly maternal and when my daughter was first born, my main feeling wasn't of overwhelming love and joy, but that I had a responsibility to her to do the best I could for her. Of course, I did grow to love them very much and now I couldn't imagine not having them. And grandchildren are particularly rewarding, imo, all the best things about having kids without much, if any, of the downside. :) So, I can't say I'm jealous or envious of childless people, although I do recognize that my life would have been very different if I hadn't had kids.
 Hamilton12345
Joined: 3/29/2012
Msg: 97
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 8/8/2013 4:58:45 PM
I agree that at 30 you should be able to get sterilized if that is what you want. Especially if you have health issues and are adamant about not having children. You would be surprised by how many women who claim to not want kids will answer, well of course I would have the baby and keep it. Those are the ones that are likely to change their mind later. But you know, 24 years ago, I couldn't get my tubes tied after my second child without my husband consent! At least we have moved forward from that. Not far enough, but we have moved.
 EloquentlyFlawed
Joined: 6/10/2013
Msg: 98
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 7/8/2016 4:36:21 PM
I was 21 when I got my vasectomy. I have had many conversations about it with men whom have had children. They are always very curious about how much of a nightmare it was. They absolutely must get one, and are terrified. My point is that if a man, no matter the age, is seriously considering having another man dig around inside of his testicles, then there must be no doubt in his mind that might later grow into a desire for a child. It is not a lack of desire for children that drive us to this decision, it is a strong desire to NEVER have them. Now that im 33 and all my relationships have ended over my inability to provide a child, i am feeling a hopelessness that might drive me to towards comprising my desire for no children. But does anyone seriously want a man to be a reluctant father? I am hoping that online dating might be the key to make my next relationship not end in the exact same pain yet again.
 aintnodeal
Joined: 4/10/2016
Msg: 99
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What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 7/8/2016 7:38:33 PM

Some women may not want kids RIGHT NOW, but eventually in a couple years they might.

I had a gf for three years who had her ovaries out just a month after we met ( missed a date, reconnected a month later ). For those three years she kept asking me if I wanted kids, when I'd told her NO - NO - NO I'm not interested in kids.

Even when they can't have more kids, you NEVER know, they might still want them.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 100
What about for the people who don't want kids?
Posted: 7/8/2016 9:06:32 PM

I was 21 when I got my vasectomy.


Where on earth did you find a doctor who would do such a thing?? A 21-year-old's brain isn't even finished developing.
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