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 AUTHOR
 Archiver
Joined: 3/10/2013
Msg: 26
communication trapPage 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)

My experience has been that the response from most women is that my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings.


If your feelings are being invalidated, it sounds like a deal breaker to me. You should choose nicer women.

If she's just disagreeing with your opinion on something, loosen up and be open to honest discussion.
 King_of_Nuthin
Joined: 3/17/2013
Msg: 27
communication trap
Posted: 8/15/2013 8:09:44 PM

that sounds like something randal would say

I can't say that cause Randal is the singer of one of my favorite bands so it would just remind me of a few of their songs.
Besides saying that's something hitler would say isn't giving him props, it's telling the person they are an idiot like hitler.



I disagree. Venting is an excellent way to release the pent up anger, to "get it out of their system", and allow a person to think about the problem more clearly and not say or do something rash or stupid.

Absolutely agree, but venting to a partner about them is never a good thing. Call up your buddies to vent about your girl/guy. Call up your girl/guy to vent about your buddies.
Depending on your relationship with your girl/guy and your friends you can figure out which one to vent to about work, school, every day life.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 6/22/2012
Msg: 28
communication trap
Posted: 8/15/2013 9:23:39 PM
It's basically cowardice - people are just plain afraid to reveal too much to an anonymous internet connection. It's not a male vs female thing - although I do sympathize with Guys who are more or less 'expected' to make the first move - but this 'unfairness' of give-and-take is nothing more than fear of the unknown. Two 'cowards' (for lack of a better term) that are just 'daring' each other to reveal themselves first.

That's why people with some internet experience in here are constantly preaching about NOT lingering online for very long and trying to get a real-life meet arranged as soon as possible. You gotta get past that fear. Have confidence in yourself, and people will follow you.
 Randal5
Joined: 10/23/2009
Msg: 29
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 6:42:58 AM
63t probably plays Mother Goose rhymes backwards to ferret out evil messages to children. I think a likely Hitler response would be "I have not come to this world to make men better, but to make use of their weaknesses"....hmmm, that might be an actual response from one lady. The statements of feelings that have I used were not the assaualtive or accusatory type. Responses like "you shouldn't feel that way" you don' really feel that way" and "how do you think I feel" don't work well in furthering the conversation.
 the_biggavell
Joined: 7/9/2012
Msg: 30
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 7:23:37 AM
The trap you speak of really.. lying.
What you want to be is to righteously communicate how you feel in a honest, unedited way, that has reason and logic attached. Women know when your editing.

You know you edit yourself when you feel something at the pit of your stomach, but then when you want to voice it, it would come out hideously mean, so yoy use your heart to edit it, and then your brain to edit it in a way she could understand it without being mean. -----stop this.

Women dont edit how they feel. It comes from the stomach, and out their mouth.

Women oftentimes wont understand logic, but thats not for them to understand, because women are a different kind of animal, connected to the emotion, and you as a man just cant tune into their level of emotion.

Your logic trumps everything.
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 31
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 7:26:00 AM
We have heard many times the complaint from women that we need to communicate our feelings openly and effectively to improve relationships.

this is a double edged sword of potentially epic proportions.

saying to someone, "you need to..." presupposes a deficiency. which may or may not be true. your posts were without context. speaking of complaints, yours sounded more like a vague, Rorschach blot grievance than anything else. there is a saying in the NLP branch of linguistics... "communication is the results you get".

"communicating feelings openly and effectively" could be damn near impossible for someone to do, despite the demand (based on other factors). on the other hand, telling someone how you feel about this or that is just information. based on the way you've framed it though, it insinuates something else ("what are you going to do about it?).

if it were me? nothing. i'm not in the business of managing other people's feelings. it's not something that even remotely interests me. besides, i can't stand complainers and people who go around being really inscrutable and indirect all the time because they have an agenda. i simply wouldn't hang around for that kind of bizarre behavior.

if someone's communication is marked by ambiguity and characterized by either a lot of spilling or shutting down, they're not trying to "communicate", they're having a power struggle. it takes two to tango, man.
 VolcanoKing
Joined: 8/6/2012
Msg: 32
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 7:37:57 AM
Sometimes women (well. let's be fair..HUMANS) just cant handle the honesty. It's like forcing a guy to respond to the "do I look fat in this dress?" question. There is no right answer, no matter what you say, you'll get a melt down, argument or be forced into admitting that yes, she really DOES look fat.

In some cases, I can see how some guys can't win.

So...Im not entirely sure it's a trap, I think what's happened is you just discovered someone who has a hard time with the hard truth. If anyone, man or woman, tells you to just be totally upfront, honest, and tell them what they think...then they crash and burn over it, well, the next move is yours. You either put up with it or head for the door.

Also, and maybe it's because I work among alot of artists, I have found men to have *no problem whatsoever* expressing themselves about their relationship/dating issues. None at all. What I DO wonder is if they choose to spill the sob story to others, like me, rather than the person who actually needs to hear it.

Most of what I hear is the "I just cant win" thing coming from men. I only say this because I work, listen to, deal with and have been friends with alot of men because of the industry I am in. They get frustrated because they cant seem to make their women happy no matter what they say or do.

The reason for this is up for grabs. Could be they dont know how to operate in a relationship, or the women they pick are not compatible with them, or a combo of both.
 AnEvilGenius1
Joined: 6/5/2012
Msg: 33
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 7:43:13 AM

My experience has been that the response from most women is that my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings.


I've mentioned this issue many many times in other threads usually when others are trying to use "feelings" or "respect" to get others to do as they want them to do.

My question has always been and seems it will always be "who's feelings trump who's " , is it the first person to say their feelings are hurt that gets the upper hand, or is the person with the most dramatically convincing story of why their feelings are hurt even more then then others ?

As far as your issue goes it's as basic as basic can be... This is what you get when you try to be what others want you to be and not who you really are, so right about now is when you should scream "Mr. Wizard, get me out of here"..
 Randal5
Joined: 10/23/2009
Msg: 34
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 8:24:39 AM
anEvilgenius1, cuts through the bs, foregoes the psycho babble and delivers the most on target response so far. He does this without demonizing the OP.
 AnEvilGenius1
Joined: 6/5/2012
Msg: 35
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 9:14:47 AM

Like Motown pointed out, this isn't communication it's a power struggle. And yes, that style of "communication" does require the participation of two people.


The "right" two people is the real key to just about any relationship problem. It doesn't matter if you take two inept fools or if you take two successful sound minded people, if they are on the same wave then derp derp derp can be just as endearing as a well written poem.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 36
view profile
History
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 9:41:44 AM
Not only are men & women different, but women are different from other women and men are different from other men. Pretty obvious wouldn't you say? I have no idea what you mean about being open about your feelings but it would all depend on who you really are, how honest you are, or are you following some formula you read somewhere, and what kind of women you are attracted to. Why shouldn't people be open? I mean if you run off those not interested in you as you are, that's a good thing. If you are playing some role you think will get you laid, then yeah, you are going to come across as phony. There aren't clones of women out there who all want one thing, nor are there cloned women out there who are just messing with your head. Stop playing your life and just live it. Who you are will attract those who want to be with you. Those who reject you, don't matter, they aren't interested in you. You trying to get women who aren't interested in you is a waste of time.

Your little polarizing comment about asking only men (not allowed here) and then passively/aggressively jabbing women about answering because well you know they will because all women are like that...that shows some issues that may well be giving you an attitude that turns a lot of people off. Not just women either. A lot of people are not interested in being proof of the fear or dislike you have toward others. Dating isn't a reward exercise, you don't play being open and then expect a return of getting whatever it is you think you deserve for playing some part. People like each other and want to keep seeing each other, or they don't. There is not a prize at the end for spoon feeding someone what some other woman might have said she wanted.
 Tsar850
Joined: 3/23/2013
Msg: 37
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 10:30:37 AM
randal5

I heard something one time that has proven true. Women really don't want to hear what a man thinks she wants to hear what she thinks in a deeper voice.

I can tell you that men actually communicate much better and efficiently than the ladies I have known.

Just try and express the idea of actual equality in a relationship or anything like that and see.

They will tell you quickly that your feelings are wrong if they do not align with theirs.

There are a few exceptions to this rule so there is hope of finding a lady that can actually handle a real conversation.

So I just hang in there.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 38
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History
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 11:03:21 AM
Once, I had a BF with whom I always seemed to end up in arguments and I couldn't figure out why. I tried all sorts of communication techniques, such as "active listening", quiet listening, using *I* statements, choosing my words carefully to avoid emotionally-laden ones, keeping my tone of voice very neutral, using open body language, focusing on positives; we even went to counseling and the counselor gave us 'homework' which I did, and he did not. He always seemed determined to mishear/misinterpret and accuse, while simultaneously telling me how much he valued open and honest communication.

There were two things that would get him to back off:
1. Agreeing with him, admitting I was wrong and that of course he was right
2. Finally breaking down into tears, or anger: at that point, he could then walk away and call me "unreasonable".

Once, in the midst of one of these arguments where I was busily practicing calmness, using open body language and "I" statements, and he was becoming progressively more frustrated and angry, I said "Sometimes I get the feeling you want to push until I lose control in some way, either yelling or crying. Is that right?" And he responded immediately and with conviction: "Yes". That was all he said - I think he was surprised to hear himself admitting it, I doubt it was something he would have wanted me to have confirmed. He later denied ever saying such a thing. I see a few guys on here that seem to have the same communication style going on.

Now, since I know about 4 guys who do this sort of thing, that must mean *most* guys do it, and I'd like an explanation, please. Or maybe just a guy-bashing fest, so I can feel justified in stereotyping every man in my life, and maybe then I'll feel a little bit better about myself. OK?

/s
 Midwest_Southwest
Joined: 9/9/2012
Msg: 39
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 11:50:50 AM
4ms4me,
I lived exactly that too. You explained it well.
You can’t MAKE someone want to understand you. It’s futile.
I interpreted OP’s position to be the same or similar.
Having done divorce work for a long time, I can attest that this is not a sex-linked trait.
Some people are just like that.
 Tsar850
Joined: 3/23/2013
Msg: 40
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 1:20:56 PM

4ms4me,
I lived exactly that too. You explained it well.
You can’t MAKE someone want to understand you. It’s futile.
I interpreted OP’s position to be the same or similar.
Having done divorce work for a long time, I can attest that this is not a sex-linked trait.
Some people are just like that.


I agree with Midwest_Southwest some are unwilling to even have a discussion or them to understand anything but what their way of doing things.

While I am sure both sexes do this to some degree.
I also know that the sexes communicate differently. I was a service manger at a GM dealer once and had to learn how to extract the problems that the customers were having.

I can attest that men and women could have the exact same problem yet the way it was explained to me was completely different.

The other thing I learned was a person could complain about a "noise" and you drive the car and find 10 noises and fix 9 of them if it was not the exact noise they wanted fixed, then you didn't fix anything.

That is where I say men are better at communication because a man will normally be more descriptive and use more of direct complaint to convey his feelings and thoughts, Where I have found the women seem to give a general description of their complaint and want you to figure out the exact "noise" she wants fixed.

So some may want to turn it into a bash session for one gender or the other if you like but that will not get you very far.

I found that the best thing was to listen to the customer take the time for test drives and learn to listen to their way of describing the problem. Find a way to understand them so you can actually address their problem.

My customer satisfaction index was 98.8% the best in the nation. That didn't happen by refusing to listen or not being able to explain things to my customers.

If you want to be a success then you have to find a customer that wants the product you have and be able to explain how the product works.
Because sometimes the complaint is not a problem but just the way a product works.

I'm trying to say there is all kinds out there of which you are most likely only going to be compatible with a very small percentage of them.

If you want someone to walk on there are people out there that want that......Why try to say the people that really want a equal relationship are defective? Because all people are not all going to communicate the way you want them to.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 41
view profile
History
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 1:55:13 PM
Mid-South-West,


You can’t MAKE someone want to understand you..

I once asked him if he could at least sometimes understand my perspective, and he said no, because then he’d have to change.
Tall:


That is a striving for a feeling of "control" issue

No dog, but yes, he most definitely wanted to be in control. He was happiest when I said “You are right”, often and with feeling. :)


To attempt to gain some feeling of more equitable "power" in that relationship, some men use dominance/power plays in having regular arguments, never giving in ever.

Interesting. I would have to agree with that. For a long time I was confused because on the one hand he seemed to crave women's attention and approval, but on the other hand he didn't seem to think much of them and absolutely could not let them be "right" if his opinion and theirs conflicted. He was also attractive and could be charming, and not a lot of people could see that other side of him - especially not the men, as he didn't seem to have any need to 'dominate' them, at least not socially. At work, things were different, I suspect.

Thanks for your feedback, very interesting for me. :)
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 42
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History
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 2:01:29 PM
"communication trap". You are believing their intent is mean. Why?

"I'm asking the guys on this forum if they have had the same experience. " Why? Do you feel justified in your anger at women if other men agree?

"We have heard many times the complaint from women that we need to communicate our feelings openly and effectively to improve relationships." Good, because communicating is good.

"My experience has been that the response from most women is that my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings." Pick kinder women if "most" you date do this.

"It feels like I got suckered into opening a door for more criticism." MORE criticism? Could it be that you aren't so sweet yourself?
Suckered is a term for "poor me" types who won't own their part.

"Whoops, should I strike what it feels like? " Why, because "most women" will jump on you for that too?

"Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway." Cause we just can't help ourselves from butting in?

I don't think you have that much respect for women to be honest.

Do you?
 Randal5
Joined: 10/23/2009
Msg: 43
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 2:06:18 PM
My post has generated some well written and thoughtful replies. Dynadaze I would refer you back to AnEvilgenius. I thought, not felt, that my original post explained why I mainly directed it toward other men who might have had similar experiences . I did premise the postby saying that women have oten labled men as poor communicators and less likley to share feelings honestly and openly. Yes , su essful communication and negotation does require effort from both individuals and that is really the point I was trying to make
 Fleuron
Joined: 8/18/2010
Msg: 44
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 3:06:11 PM

I'm asking the guys on this forum if they have had the same experience. We have heard many times the complaint from women that we need to communicate our feelings openly and effectively to improve relationships. My experience has been that the response from most women is that my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings. It feels like I got suckered into opening a door for more criticism. Whoops, should I strike what it feels like? Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway.


Yeah, I see your power issues clearly. It’s a “criticizing” “complaint’ for a woman to dare to suggest open communication in a relationship….well how can you be expected to tolerate such a demanding shrew? And then she went and suckered you into communicating with her and THEN had the nerve to have her own feelings that she probably even wanted you to respect…..at the same time?! You poor baby!

I wouldn’t expect anything from a man who thinks desiring healthy communication in a romantic relationship is “complaining.” Don’t you have some grunting and scratching to do…..


Yes , su essful communication and negotation does require effort from both individuals


Omg….this is truly an earth shattering revelation!

Well so glad that’s cleared up for ya.
 63T
Joined: 5/28/2006
Msg: 45
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History
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 4:05:20 PM

63t probably plays Mother Goose rhymes backwards to ferret out evil messages to children.

The quoted response above is an example of manipulative, inciting and stifling, negative thought.
It contains no constructive or helpful information and certainly doesn't, in your own words, "work well in furthering the conversation".
It does not convey your true feelings at all.
You seem to be willing to aknowledge perceived negative thoughts of others but not your own.

The statements of feelings that have I used were not the assaualtive or accusatory type

"I got suckered into opening a door for more criticism"
"Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway"
"my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings"
"He does this without demonizing the OP"
These quoted thoughtful statements by you are absolutely accusatory, whether you wish to accept or not.

Yes , su essful communication and negotation does require effort from both individuals and that is really the point I was trying to make

Please refer me to the exact words in your op that illustrate precisely, this point that you were trying to make?

If you learn to take responsibility for how YOU "communicate" and it's effect on others and try to be more accurate and truthful in terms of the message you are trying to convey, you will notice that others will respond differently. You will begin to feel better about yourself and the people around you instead of fostering and maintaining a fragile, sensitive ego through accusing/blaming others.
 lostsoultoo
Joined: 2/12/2013
Msg: 46
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 4:33:13 PM
OP, you appear to be an intelligent, well spoken man, so I wonder why you would present this post. Perhaps to stir the pot?? I believe that people who do not know one another very well will communicate in a different manner than people who know each other well. When the relationship is new, I think ,because of our life experiences we want the other person to understand and accept us and sometimes we may display that" oh that happened to me too" attitude that may come off as being invalidating the others person's message. When we are struggling so hard to like and be liked, it would be nice if we could be respectful and interested in each other's POV. I'm sorry if the people you are communicating with seem to treat you badly, maybe you can turn it around by hearing them out since obviously they are uncomfortable with the way you are expressing your feelings. A little patience may open the door to a very fascinating person, who, once they get to know you, could become the best communicator you'll ever know.
 Tsar850
Joined: 3/23/2013
Msg: 47
communication trap
Posted: 8/17/2013 8:55:50 AM

I agree with you totally. You're dame write. The man is not supposed to feel anger, and if he does, he by no means should communicate it. If he needs to communicate his feelings, in my opinion, it only ought to be feelings that are complimentary, sweet, and becoming to his feelings communications partner. If the feelings are not rosy, pink, or lavender, they are not the kind of feelings a man or a woman ought to communicte. If he does any criticizing, or invalidating her feelings, or questioning her moral validity on making him feel entrapped, tricked, then it's his fault, clearly, and therefore he should not mention these things.

A guy who has no respect for women, does not deserve respect from women, and therefore gets no respect from women. It is only right that he be tactfully and kindly criticised at every instance and for every of his sentences. Otherwise, how can he expect to learn how to communicate his feelings?

True. True, true.


This shows why women "claim" men don't communicate with them. It is not that we don't communicate it is we don't say the things that they want to hear.

As i said.....
Women don't want to hear what men think they want to hear what they think in a deeper voice.
 theforumfiend
Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 48
communication trap
Posted: 8/17/2013 11:15:13 AM
I respectfully disagree. Both men and women are capable of using this so-called communication trap.

My ex-husband was the one that talked all the time about his feelings - his wants, his desires. Mine were poo-pooed or outright ignored. When he wanted justification to leave the house he would pick a fight that always started with, "Tell me what's bothering you." There was no safe answer. If I said what was bothering me I was called a ****. If I said I didn't want to talk about it then I was accused of not trusting him. The reality was that I had quit trusting him because there was no way he wouldn't end up yelling. It was a set up so he could stomp out of the house to drink with the boys and stay out all night.

When I finally left he begged to try counseling. I let him pick the counselor. We were assigned homework. The counselor wanted each of us to write about what we thought was wrong with the marriage. He didn't write anything. He was given several opportunities to share his thoughts and feelings. Finally the counselor read what I had written and asked my then husband if he knew I was feeling this way. His response was no. The counselor asked if I ever told him this. His response was yes. When asked why he didn't know his response was that he didn't think it was important.

Both men and women are capable of doing dumb, selfish things when in a relationship. If your "partner" is continually disregarding your thoughts and feelings you are in a bad relationship. If the relationship is one sided you are in a bad relationship.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 49
communication trap
Posted: 8/17/2013 2:43:48 PM

on the one hand he seemed to crave women's attention and approval, but on the other hand he didn't seem to think much of them and absolutely could not let them be "right" if his opinion and theirs conflicted.

There may be an incarnation of him present on this thread...


"Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway." Cause we just can't help ourselves from butting in?

I don't think you have that much respect for women to be honest.


I think men lacking true respect for women as equal human beings is a VERY common scenario in the dating/relationship/marriage world.
Perhaps its' always tended to be like that and women weren't always positioned to take issue with the matter?

Yes , successful communication and negotation does require effort from both individuals and that is really the point I was trying to make

It requires genuine respect for one another on the part of both individuals involved in the communication.


The statements of feelings that have I used were not the assaualtive or accusatory type
******************
"I got suckered into opening a door for more criticism"
"Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway"
"my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings"
"He does this without demonizing the OP"
These quoted thoughtful statements by you are absolutely accusatory, whether you wish to accept or not.


Inclined to agree.


OP, you appear to be an intelligent, well spoken man, so I wonder why you would present this post. Perhaps to stir the pot??


I find that to be an intriguing thought-OF COURSE pot-stirring NEVER happens here in the POF forums,lol.


Both men and women are capable of doing dumb, selfish things when in a relationship. If your "partner" is continually disregarding your thoughts and feelings you are in a bad relationship. If the relationship is one sided you are in a bad relationship.

I think that there is a lot more of this going on than we realize. As long as so many people place SO MUCH VALUE on "being in a relationship" , regardless of the QUALITY of it, thse situations will abound. That may well be part of the 30-50% marriage failure rate.I say part, because I think some of the high divorce rate, lower marriage rates, more single people and all that, is part of shifting social environments and probably can't be helped.
But OP, I think the "traps" you believe you keep falling into, are considerably of your own making.
This does not mean you are a bad person or that you will never find true love, but you may want to give careful consideration to some of the things that have been pointed out to you-it might make your life a bit easier and isn't that ALWAYS a PLUS??
Cindy O
 jlynn1955
Joined: 8/24/2012
Msg: 50
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History
communication trap
Posted: 8/17/2013 5:38:27 PM
Nah, I'm going to pass on this one. Already read the other 198,0456,387 women bashing threads. Thanks anyway, though.
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