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 AUTHOR
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 42
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communication trapPage 3 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
"communication trap". You are believing their intent is mean. Why?

"I'm asking the guys on this forum if they have had the same experience. " Why? Do you feel justified in your anger at women if other men agree?

"We have heard many times the complaint from women that we need to communicate our feelings openly and effectively to improve relationships." Good, because communicating is good.

"My experience has been that the response from most women is that my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings." Pick kinder women if "most" you date do this.

"It feels like I got suckered into opening a door for more criticism." MORE criticism? Could it be that you aren't so sweet yourself?
Suckered is a term for "poor me" types who won't own their part.

"Whoops, should I strike what it feels like? " Why, because "most women" will jump on you for that too?

"Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway." Cause we just can't help ourselves from butting in?

I don't think you have that much respect for women to be honest.

Do you?
 Randal5
Joined: 10/23/2009
Msg: 43
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 2:06:18 PM
My post has generated some well written and thoughtful replies. Dynadaze I would refer you back to AnEvilgenius. I thought, not felt, that my original post explained why I mainly directed it toward other men who might have had similar experiences . I did premise the postby saying that women have oten labled men as poor communicators and less likley to share feelings honestly and openly. Yes , su essful communication and negotation does require effort from both individuals and that is really the point I was trying to make
 Fleuron
Joined: 8/18/2010
Msg: 44
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 3:06:11 PM

I'm asking the guys on this forum if they have had the same experience. We have heard many times the complaint from women that we need to communicate our feelings openly and effectively to improve relationships. My experience has been that the response from most women is that my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings. It feels like I got suckered into opening a door for more criticism. Whoops, should I strike what it feels like? Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway.


Yeah, I see your power issues clearly. It’s a “criticizing” “complaint’ for a woman to dare to suggest open communication in a relationship….well how can you be expected to tolerate such a demanding shrew? And then she went and suckered you into communicating with her and THEN had the nerve to have her own feelings that she probably even wanted you to respect…..at the same time?! You poor baby!

I wouldn’t expect anything from a man who thinks desiring healthy communication in a romantic relationship is “complaining.” Don’t you have some grunting and scratching to do…..


Yes , su essful communication and negotation does require effort from both individuals


Omg….this is truly an earth shattering revelation!

Well so glad that’s cleared up for ya.
 63T
Joined: 5/28/2006
Msg: 45
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communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 4:05:20 PM

63t probably plays Mother Goose rhymes backwards to ferret out evil messages to children.

The quoted response above is an example of manipulative, inciting and stifling, negative thought.
It contains no constructive or helpful information and certainly doesn't, in your own words, "work well in furthering the conversation".
It does not convey your true feelings at all.
You seem to be willing to aknowledge perceived negative thoughts of others but not your own.

The statements of feelings that have I used were not the assaualtive or accusatory type

"I got suckered into opening a door for more criticism"
"Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway"
"my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings"
"He does this without demonizing the OP"
These quoted thoughtful statements by you are absolutely accusatory, whether you wish to accept or not.

Yes , su essful communication and negotation does require effort from both individuals and that is really the point I was trying to make

Please refer me to the exact words in your op that illustrate precisely, this point that you were trying to make?

If you learn to take responsibility for how YOU "communicate" and it's effect on others and try to be more accurate and truthful in terms of the message you are trying to convey, you will notice that others will respond differently. You will begin to feel better about yourself and the people around you instead of fostering and maintaining a fragile, sensitive ego through accusing/blaming others.
 lostsoultoo
Joined: 2/12/2013
Msg: 46
communication trap
Posted: 8/16/2013 4:33:13 PM
OP, you appear to be an intelligent, well spoken man, so I wonder why you would present this post. Perhaps to stir the pot?? I believe that people who do not know one another very well will communicate in a different manner than people who know each other well. When the relationship is new, I think ,because of our life experiences we want the other person to understand and accept us and sometimes we may display that" oh that happened to me too" attitude that may come off as being invalidating the others person's message. When we are struggling so hard to like and be liked, it would be nice if we could be respectful and interested in each other's POV. I'm sorry if the people you are communicating with seem to treat you badly, maybe you can turn it around by hearing them out since obviously they are uncomfortable with the way you are expressing your feelings. A little patience may open the door to a very fascinating person, who, once they get to know you, could become the best communicator you'll ever know.
 Tsar850
Joined: 3/23/2013
Msg: 47
communication trap
Posted: 8/17/2013 8:55:50 AM

I agree with you totally. You're dame write. The man is not supposed to feel anger, and if he does, he by no means should communicate it. If he needs to communicate his feelings, in my opinion, it only ought to be feelings that are complimentary, sweet, and becoming to his feelings communications partner. If the feelings are not rosy, pink, or lavender, they are not the kind of feelings a man or a woman ought to communicte. If he does any criticizing, or invalidating her feelings, or questioning her moral validity on making him feel entrapped, tricked, then it's his fault, clearly, and therefore he should not mention these things.

A guy who has no respect for women, does not deserve respect from women, and therefore gets no respect from women. It is only right that he be tactfully and kindly criticised at every instance and for every of his sentences. Otherwise, how can he expect to learn how to communicate his feelings?

True. True, true.


This shows why women "claim" men don't communicate with them. It is not that we don't communicate it is we don't say the things that they want to hear.

As i said.....
Women don't want to hear what men think they want to hear what they think in a deeper voice.
 theforumfiend
Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 48
communication trap
Posted: 8/17/2013 11:15:13 AM
I respectfully disagree. Both men and women are capable of using this so-called communication trap.

My ex-husband was the one that talked all the time about his feelings - his wants, his desires. Mine were poo-pooed or outright ignored. When he wanted justification to leave the house he would pick a fight that always started with, "Tell me what's bothering you." There was no safe answer. If I said what was bothering me I was called a ****. If I said I didn't want to talk about it then I was accused of not trusting him. The reality was that I had quit trusting him because there was no way he wouldn't end up yelling. It was a set up so he could stomp out of the house to drink with the boys and stay out all night.

When I finally left he begged to try counseling. I let him pick the counselor. We were assigned homework. The counselor wanted each of us to write about what we thought was wrong with the marriage. He didn't write anything. He was given several opportunities to share his thoughts and feelings. Finally the counselor read what I had written and asked my then husband if he knew I was feeling this way. His response was no. The counselor asked if I ever told him this. His response was yes. When asked why he didn't know his response was that he didn't think it was important.

Both men and women are capable of doing dumb, selfish things when in a relationship. If your "partner" is continually disregarding your thoughts and feelings you are in a bad relationship. If the relationship is one sided you are in a bad relationship.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 49
communication trap
Posted: 8/17/2013 2:43:48 PM

on the one hand he seemed to crave women's attention and approval, but on the other hand he didn't seem to think much of them and absolutely could not let them be "right" if his opinion and theirs conflicted.

There may be an incarnation of him present on this thread...


"Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway." Cause we just can't help ourselves from butting in?

I don't think you have that much respect for women to be honest.


I think men lacking true respect for women as equal human beings is a VERY common scenario in the dating/relationship/marriage world.
Perhaps its' always tended to be like that and women weren't always positioned to take issue with the matter?

Yes , successful communication and negotation does require effort from both individuals and that is really the point I was trying to make

It requires genuine respect for one another on the part of both individuals involved in the communication.


The statements of feelings that have I used were not the assaualtive or accusatory type
******************
"I got suckered into opening a door for more criticism"
"Ladies, feel free to respond. I know you will anyway"
"my feelings are not valid or superceded by their feelings"
"He does this without demonizing the OP"
These quoted thoughtful statements by you are absolutely accusatory, whether you wish to accept or not.


Inclined to agree.


OP, you appear to be an intelligent, well spoken man, so I wonder why you would present this post. Perhaps to stir the pot??


I find that to be an intriguing thought-OF COURSE pot-stirring NEVER happens here in the POF forums,lol.


Both men and women are capable of doing dumb, selfish things when in a relationship. If your "partner" is continually disregarding your thoughts and feelings you are in a bad relationship. If the relationship is one sided you are in a bad relationship.

I think that there is a lot more of this going on than we realize. As long as so many people place SO MUCH VALUE on "being in a relationship" , regardless of the QUALITY of it, thse situations will abound. That may well be part of the 30-50% marriage failure rate.I say part, because I think some of the high divorce rate, lower marriage rates, more single people and all that, is part of shifting social environments and probably can't be helped.
But OP, I think the "traps" you believe you keep falling into, are considerably of your own making.
This does not mean you are a bad person or that you will never find true love, but you may want to give careful consideration to some of the things that have been pointed out to you-it might make your life a bit easier and isn't that ALWAYS a PLUS??
Cindy O
 jlynn1955
Joined: 8/24/2012
Msg: 50
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communication trap
Posted: 8/17/2013 5:38:27 PM
Nah, I'm going to pass on this one. Already read the other 198,0456,387 women bashing threads. Thanks anyway, though.
 Midwest_Southwest
Joined: 9/9/2012
Msg: 51
communication trap
Posted: 8/18/2013 2:30:13 PM
I agree with Midwest_Southwest some are unwilling to even have a discussion or them to understand anything but what their way of doing things.


Yes, though sometimes discussion is pointless if the other person “discusses” only to prevail or convince you, or they generalize and stereotype and have already decided who you are and what your “type” is like. They really have no interest in anything that doesn’t fit their stereotypes. Or, as 4ms4me said, they don’t want to consider anything that deviates from their existing thinking.

And I don’t assume that you discuss to get someone to do things the way you want them to. Often it’s just to understand how the other person thinks and feels, not to necessarily change anyone’s way of doing things. Driving is a good example. I used to have a BF who used to speed and weave in and out of traffic. I told him it scared me and he said that that’s just he way he drives because heavy traffic and slow drivers annoy him. So after that, either I drove or we drove separately. We didn’t try to change each other.
 ICtheLite
Joined: 9/12/2010
Msg: 52
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communication trap
Posted: 8/20/2013 11:39:29 PM
" Your problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem." ~ Captain Jack Sparrow
 MutedEnthusiasm
Joined: 7/8/2011
Msg: 53
communication trap
Posted: 8/21/2013 2:40:27 AM
OP doesn’t come off as a cynic so much as someone who never really understood what it means to communicate feelings openly and effectively, nor wishes to give it a try.

Yet he’s so sure it wouldn’t work, not with women-folk being the way they are.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 54
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communication trap
Posted: 8/21/2013 7:14:43 AM
The man is not supposed to feel anger, and if he does, he by no means should communicate it.


Me: "OH MY GOD, WHO LET THE CAT OUT?"
The BF: "We have a cat?"

Me: "Has anyone seen the beach towels?"
The BF "WHERE THE HELL ARE THE GOD-DAMNED BEACH TOWELS"

Anger is fine, it's the level of appropriatness that always makes me wonder.
 moonbeamlover
Joined: 1/22/2013
Msg: 55
communication trap
Posted: 8/21/2013 8:47:10 AM
Op your post sounds scarily like something a good friend of mine says and I used to believe they were the pure victim until they turned it on me. They honestly thought their communication was fair they were impartial open and truly wanting dialogue give and take and that they were great at it while the women they encountered were defensive and hostile and discounted their perception they took as their feelings being invalidated. They were reasonable and open but the women unreasonable invalidating and overly defensive.

Turns out open meant they had the right to dictate what the other should perceive and feel without any right to agree to disagree share their own mind or explain intent if something was taken differently from what was heard. And yet if the woman expressed the same right to say their feelings were hurt they were supposedly not trying to understand and were putting their own experiences on the other person . So based on their rules only he was allowed to take things the way he saw them whether it was meant that way or not... Only he was able to disagree with them if they took something different than he did and if they saw something differently he was right they were wrong and he was invalidated by their disagreement if their perception was different. They recently turned it on me. He told me i "was" a certain way and felt his feelings were invalidated in spite of the fact I expressed an intense aversion to spanking and so if they wanted to be sensitive to my comfort zone to not do it...He proceeded to spank me six times in a row after I expressed it while looking me in the eyes and smiling in spite of each time my clearly saying stop it i dont like that. and then say the fact they eventually stopped meant they were respectful. ( no apology for the blatant disrespect or disregard for my stated boundary) After that they expressed their belief I was defensive and overly judgmental about their intent and my expressing aversion to having my comfort zone trampled meant I was not understanding their intent to make light and poke fun and therefore they were judged and paying for someone's crimes. He sees me as his unreasonable victimizer and yet another woman he is paying for some other mans crimes for and I just wanted BOTH people to be allowed their own voice and boundaries with both seeking to understand and make each other comfortable. Not him only with my keeping quiet and sucking it up if he told me a reality he saw that i had a different interpretation for.. where i did not say he was wrong.. just that there was another possible reason if he wanted to better understand since what I was being accused of felt pretty unfair. So his " feelings" hat I was invalidating and disrespectful of his feelings and perception? I don't discount that he felt that way. What I would not do is take ownership of being the cause of them. He has a right to his feelings but he has to allow that same right to me or anyone else he is sharing with. Otherwise it is a passive aggressive arrogant dictation of someone elses reality based on their filters perceptions experiences and interpretations while fully disregarding the full extent of the other persons. If he did not demand to be heard unchallenged he would not have had so many people also wanting to be heard so his was not the only voice and agenda in the room. But he cavalierly disregarded everyone else's intent interpretations or validity of THEIR feelings while being miffed they would not just accept blindly his and thank him for sharing his infinite wisdom and reasonableness. That is taking away a persons voice.

It is not just the communicating it is the how and the emotional openness. If both people strive too understand there will be open communication. If someone is going to dictate and attack while masking themselves with impunity from any shared dialogue while claiming invalidation they may want to look at the mirror... Because frequently they are not being invalidated so much as they are having their partner not allow them to invalidate them.

Explanation openness and gentle honesty of where you are at rather than " you are doing this meaning this or making me this way" which come through as aggressive and hostile. Temper those and leave an opening for what their intent actually was rather than telling them what it was.

That is my two cents worth on the subject ( sorry about the novel). If you keep getting the same from women? Look at your own communication style and try and honestly ascertain if you are as fair open honest and seeking understanding rather than demanding open understanding while you remain blind and deaf to their feelings. And if they are passive aggressive bullies though? Find someone who is as open as hopefully you will strive to be. Sorry about the novel and i hope that makes some sense. Good luck
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 56
communication trap
Posted: 8/21/2013 5:16:31 PM

These quoted thoughtful statements by you are absolutely accusatory, whether you wish to accept or not.

op was complaining about a double bind and then persisted in perpetuating it with his own behavior. classic numbskull thinking.
 NevadaCityAngel
Joined: 7/26/2013
Msg: 57
communication trap
Posted: 8/23/2013 3:14:13 PM
People do communicate very differently. I communicate in a rather direct style. I'm in an artist's co-op, and I asked one of the male members who communicates very well with me if I was imagining things about the communication styles of two other male members. To me it was very hard to pull out of them what they were actually saying. Their message was circulatory, with vague allusions and indirect requests to work on a certain task. After an hour I was still wondering why they had called and what exactly they wanted me to do. So I pulled out what I thought they were asking and asked them if this was what they were requesting of me. They, in turn, were very puzzled because hadn't we just spent an hour talking about it? The man I asked about this said that yes, in his experience this was their regular communication style and it was confusing to him, also. But those two members were in perfect accord with each other in communication.

As I've gotten to know them better, I realize that because of the cooperative nature of the group that these two are actually extremely uncomfortable asking another member to perform a specific task. They are also uncomfortable making a command decision because it's a cooperative group. And yet decisions need to be made.

I've found in communication, and these aren't absolute rules ,only guidelines, that if someone isn't communicating clearly or is projecting then its usually because they know on some level that they don't have the right or the authority or an agreement to certain behaviors that they want to do or wish to create agreement for behaviors for the other person to do. An example would be the ex previously described who picked a fight so that he could go to the bar without his wife.
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