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 flaneur001
Joined: 7/31/2011
Msg: 74
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History
My family is very importantPage 4 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
OP I haven't read all of the posts.

So, let's break this down a little:

you're curious about this
a very large percentage of women declare that their family is very important in their lives.


you answer your own question with this:
It looks to me that these women are really saying "You will always be second to my family, get used to it!"
Of all the possible answers why this???

of all the possible reasons (listed by numerous folks in this thread) your reject most of the answers.

So, there is something about your own answer that seems to resonate for you. The statement has a rejecting edge, a pecking order, my way or the highway ultimatum. I'm curious if on an unconcious level you experienced in your past someone who rejected you, made you feel second rate and your natural self protection mechanism is on the look out for such a future situation - when you read the 'family first' line - this activates this experience and you have a negative reaction to it...but it also seems very perplexing to you that someone who has such an unappealing attitude would be looking on-line for a potential mate. So you are curious about this contradition - being rejecting yet seeing a mate.
I think this is what you are trying to figure out on the forum it just doesn't seem to be going very well.

What do you think?
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 75
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 12:56:17 PM
I think people who say this are trying to let potentials know they won't shelf their family for a new person - perhaps they were told by an ex that they expected to be put before everyone else in the picture (or in some way the message was conveyed that they were to be revolved around).
 ArtisteRoyale
Joined: 11/5/2013
Msg: 76
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 1:01:14 PM
Hi flaneur:

So, there is something about your own answer that seems to resonate for you. The statement has a rejecting edge, a pecking order, my way or the highway ultimatum. I'm curious if on an unconcious level you experienced in your past someone who rejected you, made you feel second rate and your natural self protection mechanism is on the look out for such a future situation - when you read the 'family first' line - this activates this experience and you have a negative reaction to it...but it also seems very perplexing to you that someone who has such an unappealing attitude would be looking on-line for a potential mate. So you are curious about this contradition - being rejecting yet seeing a mate.
I think this is what you are trying to figure out on the forum it just doesn't seem to be going very well.


Repeating myself (see my last two posts) but thanks for your interest. I have to wonder why you focus on me rather than the issue but that aside I am watching perfectly good relationships under attack and I want to avoid the same problem . I have no personal experience but I'm trying to learn from the mistakes of others and therefore avoid the problem. When I read the "family first line" nothing is activated. You are assuming way too much and I ask again why you focus on me rather than the topic under discussion. What happens is that I think of some friends who have gone and/or are going through a rough time because of this problem. The problem DOES exist. I'm trying to head it off at the pass.
 flaneur001
Joined: 7/31/2011
Msg: 77
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History
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 1:31:39 PM

I have to wonder why you focus on me rather than the issue


OP I know you've been getting the gears here...but most of us are trying to understand why this is such a 'hot'' topic for you. You raised the issue and a number of people responded...most had reasonable responses - but you've rejected most of them. When someone is so 'stuck' it's not a stretch to wonder if the comments are triggers to past experiences. After a few pages of responses you've given us more information. You have friends where you see that the 'families first' declaration has contributed to relational difficulties - and this is something you want to avoid.
Reasonable.

If you have had several good relationships with stable, grounded and emotionally generous women - then trust that will happen again. Just because other people find themselves in a pickle doesn't mean that you will. Dating on line is a huge risk...but it can be a calculated one. You won't know if someone will put you first or second until you acutally start having real life experiences with them. Obtuse lines in a profile offers no guarantees about future behaviours - just projected perceptions. Just get out there and trust that you will figure it out as 'whatever' unfolds.
 MutedEnthusiasm
Joined: 7/8/2011
Msg: 78
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 1:46:13 PM
When I read the "family first line" nothing is activated.

There is no “family first” line. According to your opening post, the women declare that their family is very important in their lives.

You interpret that to mean "You will always be second to my family, get used to it!", but that’s not what was said. That’s your interpretation. Others, myself included, interpret it differently.

I see no ranking of priorities in their statement. I see no hierarchy of importance. I see a simple statement. Family is very important. I feel the same. Family is important to me. So is an intimate relationship. It really isn't that hard to work these things out.
 moonbeamlover
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 79
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 1:47:01 PM

I suspect that this family thing is a sort of insight into their true intentions and is written without thought for what is really meant. When I wrote my profile it didn't occur to me to say anything about my family and I was rather surprised that others did. Methinks they protesteth too much. The very notion that family could ever not be important is foreign to me. No family can be as close as mine so I become suspicious if others feel the need to mention it. In other words I smell a rat!


Well, OP, if you are suspicious to start, looking for "true" intentions and trying to "read into" statements assuming any statement is an overstatement by default because, to you, it does not need to be stated, then this entire thread is looking for support for your position (hence your thanking maleman for supporting you, and disagreeing with everyone else).

If you are looking for "proof" for something you are already convinced of, then you will take the agreements, throw out the rest and rest assured that you interpretation and your position are faultless and anyone who disagrees or has a different view must therefore be wrong.

But what if someone has DIFFERENT experiences than you, and they have been put on the spot for not telling their kids to shove off in deference to someone they are seeing, and had repeatedly been made to choose one or the other. Would it not then make sense that they felt the need to say they were close to their family so that someone too insecure to share know in advance, so they did not waste each other's time?

Assuming there is a rat because you assume you know what someone's experiences are, their mindset is, and their reasoning is, without knowing them or anything about them, it makes you seem more than a little suspicious, a lot more than a little narrow minded and judgmental, and you could be TOTALLY wrong in way more instances than you are right. I say this with full respect, but the second you look for rats?

You will find them. The problem with them? Is many of them are made up by you, projected onto someone else. I recently had to leave a date early to drive my autistic son to a third shift job that would have been a $50 cab ride for him, or a four hour walk after having worked for 18 straight hours before. I left to drive him. And it was a two hour date, it was not a fast one.

He then proceeded to tell me that I left him because I was going on another date with another man, that it was incredibly disrespectful of me and that he could not in good conscience go out with someone who was that callous with his feelings. And this was my making time for a date on a 70 hour workweek when I was exhausted but wanted to make sure he knew he was important enough to me to make time for in the middle of the insanity.

He LITERALLY tried, convicted and sentenced me. I had my son call him and tell him that I did indeed drive him to work that night, and then I told him to never contact me ever again.

Insecurity, suspicion, paranoia, looking for "real" meanings with people?

Whenever you do that? What you will find? Way more often than not will be the product of your own suspicions rather than actual guilt.

Give each person the benefit of the doubt, just like you would like THEM to do for you if something in your profile rang funny to them. Don't we each deserve our own actual answers and changes without being judged without a jury?

At least consider it, k? Don't go looking for rats. You will find enough of them; but don't manufacture ones that just aren't.

Peace.
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 80
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 1:57:53 PM
Okay, after thinking about this thread, the OP has brought up some real good points about misrepresentation when it comes to profiles. So, just to set the record straight and make things crystal clear for anyone that cares. Yes, I LOVE good whiskey. And there is no phucking way I'll ever drink that JD stuff, ever again.


Well, maybe.

If it's like 3 in the morning and all the other bottles are empty, I just may have to reconsider.

But, only at that one moment in time.

I just wanted to make sure no one was confused.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 81
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 2:33:09 PM
ArtisteRoyale- You have asked a valid question and many here are tarring and feathering you for it.
The problem is the part where you deviate from "my family is important to me" and translate that into "you will always come second."
That may well be the case with SOME people, but not all.
If everything else in a profile attracts your attention, but you find yourself doubting over their family, why not at least send them a message and chat and just ask enough questions to find out for sure.
I've been the person in a relationship where not was I not first, I'm not sure I was even fourth or fifth.
It hurts, it's not fun, caution is wise but fear paralyzes, just food for thought.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, you never forget, but just be sure in not forgetting that you aren't transferring feelings and hurt from an ended relationship into one that has hope (if you let it).
You want to be first, many people do, so find that person who wants the same thing and will give it in return. It's as simple as that.
I think way too many of you are judging this op rather harshly, ironic given the amount of profiles that contain the "my children are my life" line. (which ALWAYS turns me off).
 Hamilton12345
Joined: 3/29/2012
Msg: 82
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 2:46:53 PM

You want to be first, many people do, so find that person who wants the same thing and will give it in return. It's as simple as that.
I think way too many of you are judging this op rather harshly, ironic given the amount of profiles that contain the "my children are my life" line. (which ALWAYS turns me off).


I don't really think so, given that anyone that didn't agree with him was told they were wrong, quite often in a rather rude manner.

He ask what it meant with the implication that it always meant a relationship would come in second. He had decided that before he posted so I am not sure why he bothered to ask.

We told him that was not what it meant, but that was not good enough for him, we were obviously wrong and didn't know what we were talking about. That is why he is being given a hard time.

As for wanting to always be first, that just isn't feasible. We all have jobs and other obligations that sometimes need to come first ( and no, not always emergencies, sometimes just life.) Most of us aren't really interested in the one who needs to be the centre of the universe.
 ArtisteRoyale
Joined: 11/5/2013
Msg: 83
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 3:19:12 PM
Hi moonbeamlover, thank you for your long and detailed post. It sure puts my problems into perspective. I only have to deal with what might be whereas you are dealing with what is and your "what is" is way more serious than my poor worries. I agree with almost all of what you are saying and take issue with only one part.

Give each person the benefit of the doubt, just like you would like THEM to do for you if something in your profile rang funny to them. Don't we each deserve our own actual answers and changes without being judged without a jury?

I'm afraid that the times when we could give the benefit of the doubt have long gone. I have just finished reading a book by a famous guy ( I gave his name but then my post got deleted so maybe I infringed the rules) but he gives relationship advice and has a TV show. He says exactly that and gives ways to recognise these nasties which are spawning rapidly in our modern world. It is worth a read. I'm sure you would recognise your recent encounter. I know it is not the way we were brought up and I wish it wasn't so but I agree with him that these days CYA is the new philosophy. I am researching ways to red flag this particular nasty and it is only the first line of defense. There was a time when I would have taken a chance but these days the stakes are too high. If I have to be alone so be it. I have alternative life styles I can pursue if needs must. I think my thread has given me some insight into the types to avoid. I'm used to taking abuse from the ignorant. It means nothing to me. Why should I care about what people I don't know say. If they say constructive stuff, and we have had a lot of that, I take it in and if they are abusive I remember the signs. It is all education and education is never a bad thing.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 84
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 3:21:02 PM
hamilton12345- Reread my post, I agreed he was making a leap by thinking that "my family is important" is the same as "you will come second".
However, I will say that a relationship takes work and dedication to last. We do have jobs, children, stress, that's why it is so important to take the time to just stop for at least a while each day and concentrate on the person we are with if we are in a relationship, I don't see it as either/ or. You can have balance in life.
Think about the people who come here and say a relationship ended out of no where and they just don't know why.
I never buy that, they knew, they just didn't give the relationship and the person what they needed and they found them selves alone and in denial.
We are not robots, we are living breathing people with needs and wants and anyone who can't admit that is just kidding themselves.
 ArtisteRoyale
Joined: 11/5/2013
Msg: 85
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 3:37:56 PM
to bamagrl
Thanks for your support. Perhaps it is a bit of leap to go from "my family is important to me" to "you will always come second" and yes maybe I said that for effect. Sometimes you have to fire for effect rather than specifics. Like you say it is a real problem and you have actually encountered it so I feel your post is very important. I have only observed it with friends. I'm sure there are many who feel the way we do and I'm sure there are many who would reciprocate the idea but we need to be aware of the problem and discuss it so we can recognise those who only want us part time or as second class citizens. I think this thread has moved us along that road a little way at least. Gave me a lot of insight anyway. I think we HAVE to be first in our partners lives and they HAVE to be first in ours for a relationship to work and to be fulfilling.
Thank you for your kind words about the abuse I'm taking but I can take it. It is only an internet forum, I can keep it in perspective, besides I've been on political forums. This stuff is a walk in the park, try taking on the middle east situation with just about anybody on the other side (whatever that is).
It is always good to meet a kindred spirit. Good luck to you
 Hamilton12345
Joined: 3/29/2012
Msg: 86
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 3:45:21 PM
Bama, I did carefully read your post and I still don't think we are being all that hard on the OP. He came with a preconceived notion and when we stated otherwise, he told us were wrong.

Yes we do need to give time to the people we love and are in relationships with, but they cannot be the most important thing in our lives 24/7 and that is what the OP seems to want. I don't know about you, but I would suffocate in that type of relationship. I want to do girl things with my friends and my daughter and soon to be daughter-in-law. I want to spend one-to-one time with my son occasionally. I have friends that I like to sit and chat with over coffee. Talk about silly things that my guy would roll his eyes at. These things are all a part of what makes me the person I am and I won't give them up for anyone. The OP is living in this world where making such a statement as My Family is Very Important means that they would be relegated to second place. I don't get this idea that one person has to sit on the top of the hierarchy, many people can sit at the top, we just focus on different ones at different times. Works for most of us and would definitely make us a bad fit for a guy like the OP.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 87
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 4:47:15 PM
hamilton12345- We agree more than you think.
When two people are in a relationship, it is healthy to do things separately SOMETIMES.
I think what the op is trying to say is that it can become a huge problem if everything always takes precedence over the person you are with.
I stand firm in my belief that no one can stay happy with someone who treats them like a toy to be played with when they feel like it and then shelved every time something else comes along.
We all need to feel like we are appreciated at least some of the time, otherwise, what's the point?
Have you ever known someone with a workaholic?, unless BOTH people are workaholics it just doesn't work. (just one example)
Again, it's all about balance.
Spend time alone, spend time together, but too much of one or the other is not good for a relationship.
I don't think the OP is asking to be first AT ALL TIMES, I think he is asking to be first in priority and there is a big difference between the two.
I hope one day to find that special someone, I have 3 children and 3 grandchildren, I love them, but I feel it would not be fair to ALWAYS put the person I love in second (or third, or fourth) place. I can spend time with my family and the one I love, but then again I would consider the person I love to be a part of my family.
Family is not just blood, family, to me, includes ALL those I love.
 Seki1949
Joined: 9/4/2013
Msg: 88
view profile
History
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 5:57:15 PM
When reading female profiles 'My family is very important to me' is 50% of the way to a deal breaker for me. Personally I think women should be hesitant to place that line in a profile.

Posed cutie pictures with the Pampered Pet is also 50% of the way to a deal breaker. Both 'My Family' and 'Pampered Poochie' and I'm hitting the 'Next Key.' Of course, maybe that is why I am still single.

PS: I have a great family and adorable pets, but you're not dating any of them for a long, long time.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 89
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 6:11:14 PM
seki1949- I think we have a similar sense of humor, you are funny :D
What's that movie?
She's my sister (slap!), she's my mother (slap!), she's my sister and my mother! :D :D :D
 SWEET_MAVERICK
Joined: 9/28/2013
Msg: 90
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 8:08:28 PM
^^Chinatown w/ Fay Dunaway

I think when someone puts a family disclaimer in the beginning of an ad, it is like they are erecting a barrier to keep people away.

Of course a normal person won't drop everything at the beginning, but they certainly will make room for a relationship. It's a given that parents have some sort of relationship, esp. if the kids r young.

Why be on this site if you r going to dwell on children/family?
 Halcyon_Skies
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 91
My family is very important
Posted: 11/10/2013 9:08:23 PM
I think people who say this are trying to let potentials know they won't shelf their family for a new person - perhaps they were told by an ex that they expected to be put before everyone else in the picture (or in some way the message was conveyed that they were to be revolved around).


I agree that this could be a motive---although I think someone who would use this type of disclaimer in their profile is throwing up obstacles to intimacy. I think they're carrying baggage if they feel a need to warn off new dating prospects just because of the actions of an ex-partner.


I think when someone puts a family disclaimer in the beginning of an ad, it is like they are erecting a barrier to keep people away.


Agreed. Personally, I avoided profiles that had any type of disclaimer---whether it be "friends first", "family first", "my kids are my world", or making any kind of mention of religion, e.g. that they "love the Lord".
 theforumfiend
Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 92
My family is very important
Posted: 11/11/2013 1:22:31 AM

Having an agenda is news to me. Just what do you suppose it is? Your other advice is very sound. I most certainly intend to do that but I see no reason why I should stifle my curiosity.


Simple. Based on your posts you have a need to confirm that you are right - women that put "my family is very important" are telling you that you will never truly matter. While I do not believe this to be true for most people I am sure there are people who are subtly telling potential partners this.

Based on what people are trying to tell you I feel most people believe family to be important and have no desire to be separated from their family. Hopefully this means that should you have entered a relationship you would become part of that family. Obviously you have seen (and/or also experienced) examples of what would not be healthy. To be curious isn't necessarily bad, however I feel you should either write off women that use the phrase because it triggers something in you or decide that you can judge each person as an individual and not try to put words in their mouths.

(dayum, working messes with following posts)
 ArtisteRoyale
Joined: 11/5/2013
Msg: 93
My family is very important
Posted: 11/11/2013 3:56:34 AM
to theforumfiend:
And to everyone else who has attacked me. I am not the subject of this debate. When you attack me you are totally off topic. Your amateur psychoanalysis of me is not only irrelevant it is pathetic. You don't know me in any way and your desire to attack me rather than address the subject in hand tells us far more about you than it can ever say about me. All of you need to take a look at yourselves and wonder why you attacked the messenger rather than address the message. You tried to hurt someone because they said something you disagreed with. That is primitive! You need to ask yourself why you want to hurt someone, anyone at all, but especially someone you don't know, can never know and is no threat to you at all. Consider your own arrogance that you think your words can hurt someone who is a face on a screen. You are only a face on my screen too. You have delusions of power. You have no power, get used to it.
You are looking for a fight rather than searching for knowledge.
The subject is real, it is a genuine problem. It is a subject that directly involves single people looking for a partner. It is a subject that you are extremely likely to encounter. You chose to ignore it and attack the poster instead. It is not me that needs any analysis, it is you.
On a personal note I got a lot out of this. I wanted to put my toe in the water of internet dating which I did and I doubt I will find a partner here. I have had a good life. I build, make and repair things and I am well aware that what I take months to make can be destroyed in less than a minute. There are people who take great delight in destruction and meeting them on an internet forum is about as close as I want to get. I find myself without a partner and I firmly believe that as a species we are hard wired to work in pairs. My experience is that two people together accomplish about four times what one person can do alone. I miss my partner terribly and I want to find another but I doubt that a place as negative as this will produce her. Petunias have been known to grow in onion patches but they are far more likely to be in flower beds.
So I am off, with places to go, people to meet and things to do. It was not pleasant but it was informative and I don't regret trying it out.
Fair thee well, one and all.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 94
My family is very important
Posted: 11/11/2013 5:41:23 AM
Your amateur psychoanalysis of me is not only irrelevant it is pathetic. You don't know me in any way and your desire to attack me rather than address the subject in hand tells us far more about you than it can ever say about me. All of you need to take a look at yourselves and wonder why you attacked the messenger rather than address the message. You tried to hurt someone because they said something you disagreed with. That is primitive! You need to ask yourself why you want to hurt someone, anyone at all, but especially someone you don't know, can never know and is no threat to you at all. Consider your own arrogance that you think your words can hurt someone who is a face on a screen. You are only a face on my screen too. You have delusions of power. You have no power, get used to it.
You are looking for a fight rather than searching for knowledge.

oh the irony

OP-Methinks they protesteth too much

hahahahaha

So I am off

Bye. Don't let the door hit you.

I'd have voted this thread as troll thread of the week but, unfortunately, I think OP is trying to be serious.
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 95
My family is very important
Posted: 11/11/2013 6:01:50 AM
On a personal note I got a lot out of this.

i'll bet you did. you were all over this thread like a cheap suit


The subject is real, it is a genuine problem

but it's not a genuine problem if you bypass all those ladies who think their "family is very important" like the festering social tumors they are. they warned you about their issue right on their profile, too. you can't ask for more than that, really.

off you go then.
 moonbeamlover
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 96
My family is very important
Posted: 11/11/2013 6:39:28 AM
OP (since you haven't deleted your account yet; I'm guessing you will eventually read these)...

Again, I say this with full respect, but your last post maybe speaks more than you think about your frame of mind when you posted.

Although I will agree some of the posts were maybe a tad on the cynical side, forumfiends post was EXTREMELY respectful and there was nothing whatsoever wrong with it. The fact it was taken as hostilly and your reaction was so over the top disrespectful back does give me a little bit of pause.

I know forums can be a rough place sometimes, but to me the attacks seemed to take place when those people who were trying to be respectfully constructive and maybe give an alternate view were met with aggressive hostility by you (you maybe don't realize how much YOU attacked in this thread... and some of those that you attacked were genuinely respectful, kind and trying to honestly dialogue with you).

Dialogue? Means different people offering different perspectives based on their OWN experiences. When you open up a topic of dialogue and utterly shut down anyone who opposes YOUR viewpoint? That is not dialogue. It is a soapbox. And that is when people started getting more inflammatory.

I really hope you can chill out, calm down, walk away, and then come back and read this with fresh perspective when you are not quite so raw. I think there was a lot of really good and constructive things that were said. I'm not saying to throw out everything that person said that you read; I'm saying you might want to temper it a little. It might not be either or. It might just be a matter of degree.

But when you are trying to "analyze" someone's psychological intent based on wording in a profile, accusing mass people of being pseudo arm chair psychologists comes across as way more ironic than you would think. You kind of did not do yourself any favors. I honestly think people were trying to be constructive. Eventually I hope you appreciate that; because you did not treat the vast majority with any respect or decency, when they very much initially did you.

This is not an attack. This is an intuitive, compassionate person seeing someone with a thorn in their paw attacking people while angrily refusing to believe the thorn was there.

Take care
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 97
My family is very important
Posted: 11/11/2013 8:03:46 AM
I read the opening post but not many of the replies after it.

If I say "my family is important to me" (and even though I might
not say it, it's certainly true.) that means I spend time with them,
I'm friends with them, I help them out when they need it, I enjoy
spending holidays with them and I'd like my partner to be a part
of that.

So, if I meet someone and they prefer to do things separately on
holidays etc., if they don't want to take a weekend to help someone
move, if they'd rather stick pins in their eyes than have thankgsgiving
dinner with a large family, they don't like little kids around (grandkids),
etc., then we're simply not compatible.

Not everyone loves their family, so I don't find it an odd subject.
Some people dislike their families so much it becomes another problem
entirely.

I like to know where people stand on their family issues frankly.

and PS by the way, how does "my family is important to me" translate
to you'll never be first or as important?
 Ladyinred4755
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 98
My family is very important
Posted: 11/11/2013 8:23:02 AM
I realize the OP has chosen to move along. Regardless, I will add the following to this this thread. ................... Had a conversation just last night with my 72 yr old GF/housemate concerning the subject of this thread. She agrees completely with the OP. She and her husband married when they were still teenagers, they had 3 children/ 8 grandkids. Her husband was her first priority/number one. Some years before he died, they moved 2.5 hours away from their grown children/grandkids. On his death bed he asked ME to look after her. NOT their children or a grown grandchild. On many occasions my GF has sadly, commented. "My kids/grandkids never come to see me, I'm lucky I see them once a year."
If a lady is close to her family I'd consider that a good indicator of her being able to care for others. At least, I've noticed this to be true in most close knit families.
The above quote, speaks volumes. I hope never to be in my GF's shoes. .....................IMO, If a man is put off by a woman stating in her profile "My family is very important", or "I am first and foremost family oriented," then they would not be compatible. To each his own. Some of us ladies have healthy, loving, caring, relationships with our families. This does not imply we are "into everyone's business". Quite the opposite........................Edited: Browneyesboo, VERY WELL SAID!




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