Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Dating Experiences  > Are there any gentlemen out there?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Behind-Blue-Eyes_53
Joined: 12/19/2011
Msg: 126
Are there any gentlemen out there?Page 6 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)

leafs.fan.89:
My point was mainly that most "nice guys" aren't the type to start up random conversations, whether its at the bar, in the grocery line, or at the street corner, and that if women are sick of only meeting ***holes, they should try taking the initiative to talk to guys, rather than waiting to be approached, because just waiting for guys to talk to them will yield a very high amount of guys who are just looking for sex. Myself and most of my friends are really nice guys, but don't have the confidence to approach a woman that they don't have a reason to speak to.


IDK, maybe you're confusing 'nice-guys' with little Beta-Whimps.... Just because sex may happen sooner than later with Alpha's, doesn't mean they're just looking for sex. Bet you're one of those guys who doesn't dance, either....
 juliettes7
Joined: 11/4/2012
Msg: 127
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/11/2014 9:00:01 PM
I just made helpful suggestions, but knew men aren't up to the task, too hard.

"If you want some gals to approach you--
Don't assume sex will happen.
Don't get bitter if you get LJBF or call it blowing hot n cold, teasing, fake flirts, slander all of womankind because somebody talked to you a few times, and didn't want to go further."

If you already are like this, great, maybe women who know you are civilized won't be afraid to get to know you.

"Nope, this is only true for the same ***holes/ douchebag types that I was discussing earlier. "

Nope what, that only douche bags want sex, vs the "nice guy/gentleman"?

"Most guys are super impressed when a women approaches, it shows she is independent and ambitious. Some women seem to think guys are "turned off" by aggressive women, but I have no idea where that perception comes from, if anything, I'm so impressed when a woman actually comes and talks to me that I become way more interested in her than I was before."

I never refuted men like women to approach them, only WHY women don't approach some men.

If they aren't approaching you, they haven't decided you are for them, that is the real reason. Some guy called me "bashful'--I just wasn't attracted to him at that point. He was ok looking, but maybe if we were compatible on other levels, who knows.

Women DO show interest in men they already feel attraction.

It's the "grey area guy"--not a "no", but not a "yes"- they're unsure if attracted enough to Mr. Maybe, so they don't approach him first.

They might, to find out about character, goals, interests but think showing interest first, might be misconstrued as "leading him on", if they decide he's a "no" because men don't take LJBF or "no match" calmly, in stride.

Women have experienced that many men do think attention from a woman first, is a "likely score" and, after getting to know him, deciding its a non match, no intimacy experienced, he gets hysterical, feels "led on", and it's about his dramatic reaction to the "sexual rejection".

I was addressing the plaint-"why won't she give me a chance/get to know me"?
Because if it doesn't go as he wants, drama.
Who wants to go through it for someone they're not even sure they like enough?

The forums are evidence of this kind of drama. If a woman decides "no thanks" after talking to a guy for a bit-

she must be screwing 10 guys on the side, looking for Brad, they get bitter and volatile when its "not a match"--but they will never say that--
1 it's more about her insanity, she's a master manipulator/"controlling" about sex, making him hoop jump, wanting a movie star, etc.
2 women don't know what they want/can't decide/are looking for Mr. Nonexistent
3 they are shallow flakes, innately whorish and untrustworthy teases and prostitutes, looking for perfection, are users trying to exploit me for food, attention whoring, laughter, etc. according to the fora.

"I find it amusing that your advice to us is to not "slander all womankind", at the exact same time as you make huge incorrect generalizations about men, based on the behavior of a few immature jerks."

Thanks, all your "nice guy" posts are amusing, too. The immature jerks are not the minority.
The "real nice guys" are the minority, and usually snapped up, as they attract women.

What "huge incorrect male generalizations" do you mean?

That even self described "nice guys" don't take rejection well, nor aholes
AND they DON'T turn to make ego sparing generalizations on these threads about her morality, mental status, evil machinations, vs just say "oh not a match, oh wells.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 128
view profile
History
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/11/2014 9:59:11 PM
juliettes7, you're killing me. I hope you'll learn to use the "quote" feature at some point.
 juliettes7
Joined: 11/4/2012
Msg: 129
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/11/2014 10:20:47 PM
If you saw any of my posts last year, I know "how" to use the quote feature, not that that's the point of any of your prefab pua or whatever generated responses. It's just as well you don't read my posts, as I don't come here to deal with dismissive, juvenile posters. I may make the mistake of replying once to be polite, but I don't make that mistake twice.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 130
view profile
History
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/11/2014 10:53:43 PM

If you saw any of my posts last year, I know "how" to use the quote feature, not that that's the point of any of your prefab pua or whatever generated responses. It's just as well you don't read my posts, as I don't come here to deal with dismissive, juvenile posters. I may make the mistake of replying once to be polite, but I don't make that mistake twice.


Why are you criticizing what I write to help people? I think I have good intentions and everything I said has merit to it. You really shouldn't be putting down what other people contribute when you simply can't be bothered to use a feature that makes it easier for everyone to read your posts. I would actually read them if you used the proper quote featured so it was more organized. Calling other people juvenile says something about your character, not mine. I felt it was appropriate to speak up about how you're posting because more people would actually read it if it wasn't confusing.
 drivingharmony2
Joined: 6/23/2013
Msg: 131
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 12:10:42 AM

juliettes7, you're killing me. I hope you'll learn to use the "quote" feature at some point.


J7 - I think you have a lot of good info but it is really hard to read when noted the way you wrote it. :)
==
CW: I think your intentions are just fine and I agree with your post. AND YOU WERE VERY MUCH A GENTLEMAN ABOUT IT :)
==
And AA: you can pass me the warm glass of milk but be sure to have a chocolate chip cookie with it, too :)
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 132
view profile
History
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 11:32:47 AM

CW: I think your intentions are just fine and I agree with your post. AND YOU WERE VERY MUCH A GENTLEMAN ABOUT IT :)


Thank you very much. :) What I'm trying to explain to guys like Vertical Man is that most women won't reply unless they feel some sort of attraction. The same goes for men. A guy isn't going to reply to a woman he's clearly not into. They need to communicate their confidence and value with their first or second message to get more replies.
 juliettes7
Joined: 11/4/2012
Msg: 133
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 7:18:41 PM
Guess you 3 -4 won't be reading my posts, since you "can't read" them.

1 How do I get all the critical comments if you can't read my posts?

2 People claiming they are blind unless POF quote boxes are used--so how did you read single spaced newsprint, books, magazines, text online, text on food boxes, etc.?

3 I can read every post on here, even single spaced but I prefer more spacing yet wouldn't say-hey add space. Read it or don't read it--not the end of the world.

4 Are you using a tiny screened device?

I box quoted, till I switched to a tablet and it's just easier right now.

*Maybe you mean you cannot "follow" the post rather than "can't read". *

Even when quote boxes are used, I get lost in any thread I haven't followed closely, so I don't bother in that case.

In that context, my post would make sense had you read the other posts prior in the thread, though I get you "prefer" the text bento boxed.
I think if you read the thread progression, it's not that perplexing.

I've seen neatly quote boxed discussions and I get lost as well, due to the branched out discussion and very lengthy thread.

If an OP made a polite request ok, I'd do that, but I see no need here-don't read me, it's not required.

Somehow, I bet you will or you always have--as your critical comments indicate, and are just being cute or you read it off your device, and just the same way if I told someone hey, you need to space your posts to my preference, people would tell me to eff off. People post as they prefer, read it or don't..

Coma, I'm not buying your act-others do, whatever.. Every comment you have ever made to me is snide nonsense addressing nothing, just passive aggressive negativity directed at me, having to do with nothing, just a smokescreen, like the quote feature this time, grammar another, etc. to annoy me because I offended some sensibility of yours which you don't address directly or respectfully. Don't play superiority games with me in lieu of actually making a point, which you're incapable of doing. What a joke.

The ONE time ever responded to your repeated dumbsniderywithnopoint other than wanting attention- I don't know why you need to be hugged and soothed, play hurt cub.

Bleh, and knowing you, you will doggedly try to have the last word. Yes, that is juvenile, to annoy people to draw attention to yourself. So don't read my posts, it's fine.
 drivingharmony2
Joined: 6/23/2013
Msg: 134
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 7:31:02 PM

1 How do I get all the critical comments if you can't read my posts?


Personally, when I see lengthy posts without quote enclosure as noted above, I general read the beginning info, the end, and forget the middle. It's kind of like a book for me. I'll read a little in the front and the back, then guess what's in the middle. :)
==

What kills me is that there are so many women with broken pickers here who want to make all men feel guilty for their own poor character-judgement skills.


Come on, Wordsmith, you know this isn't gender specific....right? This works both ways....or do you really not get that?
==

.......act like a gentleman to a woman who appreciates and reciprocates to one.


^^^Sounds reasonable :)
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 135
view profile
History
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 8:08:37 PM

Coma, I'm not buying your act-others do, whatever.. Every comment you have ever made to me is snide nonsense addressing nothing, just passive aggressive negativity directed at me, having to do with nothing, just a smokescreen, like the quote feature this time, grammar another, etc. to annoy me because I offended some sensibility of yours which you don't address directly or respectfully. Don't play superiority games with me in lieu of actually making a point, which you're incapable of doing. What a joke.


There's nothing fake or passive aggressive about what I said. It only takes a few seconds to use the quote feature and it makes it way easier for people to follow what you're trying to say. I'm not offended by anything, I'm telling you that people are going to skip your post if you can't be bothered to use the quote feature when including multiple quotes from different people. I have no idea what you're talking about when you bring up superiority games or making a point. The point is that less people are going to read your posts if they look disorganized. You don't need to be so angry. I'm just passing along constructive criticism because it seems silly to take the time to write a long response that's hard for people to read.
 drivingharmony2
Joined: 6/23/2013
Msg: 136
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 8:10:48 PM

You'd make a fantastic mentor for young people. Are you perhaps, a professional professional counselor???


The professional professional professed in a professional manner....a resounding "No" not a counselor. I think it's more common sense than anything. I have two offspring that I mentor, one close to your age. :) (and thank you AA for your kind words, very sweet)
===
In reading OP's initial post, she communicates with two guys on PoF and the guys fairly quickly go into sexual topics. It makes me wonder if there are some guys who think women want to discuss sex early on? Maybe some women have no problem discussing sex topics early on?
===
In reading OP's initial post further, I am not so sure the guy she went out with was not a gentleman. He got a "bit handsy" she turned him down and they parted friendly, he even "understood" why he was turned down, and they even discussed getting together the following weekend. It does not sound like the guy tried to take it further when OP turned him down. I think if the guy was truly interested in OP, he would have followed through with another date? Would OP have accepted the second date if asked???
Is it possible the guy was getting mixed signals? If OP was truly offended by his behavior, why even discuss a potential second date? Just some thoughts.....
 juliettes7
Joined: 11/4/2012
Msg: 137
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 8:21:14 PM
Dh2, so suddenly it makes sense where before it was garbled muck?

I just made helpful suggestions, but knew men aren't up to the task, too hard.


If you want some gals to approach you--
Don't assume sex will happen.
Don't get bitter if you get LJBF or call it blowing hot n cold, teasing, fake flirts, slander all of womankind because somebody talked to you a few times, and didn't want to go further.


If you already are like this, great, maybe women who know you are civilized won't be afraid to get to know you.


Nope, this is only true for the same ***holes/ douchebag types that I was discussing earlier.


Nope what, that only douche bags want sex, vs the "nice guy/gentleman"?


Most guys are super impressed when a women approaches, it shows she is independent and ambitious. Some women seem to think guys are "turned off" by aggressive women, but I have no idea where that perception comes from, if anything, I'm so impressed when a woman actually comes and talks to me that I become way more interested in her than I was before.


I never refuted men like women to approach them, only WHY women don't approach some men.

If they aren't approaching you, they haven't decided you are for them, that is the real reason. Some guy called me "bashful'--I just wasn't attracted to him at that point. He was ok looking, but maybe if we were compatible on other levels, who knows.

Women DO show interest in men they already feel attraction.

It's the "grey area guy"--not a "no", but not a "yes"- they're unsure if attracted enough to Mr. Maybe, so they don't approach him first.

They might, to find out about character, goals, interests but think showing interest first, might be misconstrued as "leading him on", if they decide he's a "no" because men don't take LJBF or "no match" calmly, in stride.

Women have experienced that many men do think attention from a woman first, is a "likely score" and, after getting to know him, deciding its a non match, no intimacy experienced, he gets hysterical, feels "led on", and it's about his dramatic reaction to the "sexual rejection".

I was addressing the plaint-"why won't she give me a chance/get to know me"?
Because if it doesn't go as he wants, drama.
Who wants to go through it for someone they're not even sure they like enough?

The forums are evidence of this kind of drama. If a woman decides "no thanks" after talking to a guy for a bit-

she must be screwing 10 guys on the side, looking for Brad, they get bitter and volatile when its "not a match"--but they will never say that--
1 it's more about her insanity, she's a master manipulator/"controlling" about sex, making him hoop jump, wanting a movie star, etc.
2 women don't know what they want/can't decide/are looking for Mr. Nonexistent
3 they are shallow flakes, innately whorish and untrustworthy teases and prostitutes, looking for perfection, are users trying to exploit me for food, attention whoring, laughter, etc. according to the fora.


I find it amusing that your advice to us is to not "slander all womankind", at the exact same time as you make huge incorrect generalizations about men, based on the behavior of a few immature jerks.


Thanks, all your "nice guy" posts are amusing, too. The immature jerks are not the minority.
The "real nice guys" are the minority, and usually snapped up, as they attract women.

What "huge incorrect male generalizations" do you mean?

That even self described "nice guys" don't take rejection well, nor aholes
AND they DON'T turn to make ego sparing generalizations on these threads about her morality, mental status, evil machinations, vs just say "oh not a match, oh wells.
 drivingharmony2
Joined: 6/23/2013
Msg: 138
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 8:31:22 PM

Dh2, so suddenly it makes sense where before it was garbled muck?
I just made helpful suggestions, but knew men aren't up to the task, too hard.


No, I never read the middle part of super lengthy posts so I have no clue if it's garbled muck. But, I like what you have done with your last post. :) and the comment, "too hard" hmmmm, that's what she said.
J7: You make some good, valid points.
 Seki1949
Joined: 9/4/2013
Msg: 139
view profile
History
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 11:38:15 PM
I may make the mistake of replying once to be polite, but I don't make that mistake twice.


Easy-Peasy
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 140
view profile
History
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/12/2014 11:50:30 PM

In reading OP's initial post further, I am not so sure the guy she went out with was not a gentleman. He got a "bit handsy" she turned him down and they parted friendly, he even "understood" why he was turned down, and they even discussed getting together the following weekend. It does not sound like the guy tried to take it further when OP turned him down. I think if the guy was truly interested in OP, he would have followed through with another date? Would OP have accepted the second date if asked???
Is it possible the guy was getting mixed signals? If OP was truly offended by his behavior, why even discuss a potential second date? Just some thoughts.....


I think the problem probably came from the OP getting physical before building comfort with his date and jumping into something physical without doing it in steps. On the same note, on these types of sites you definitely run into a lot of people that are into the meat market thing.
 BelleAtlantic
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 141
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/13/2014 6:09:03 AM
Lmao @halo-polishers

I'm gonna have to ask copy-right permission to say this in all venues my presence is required while indoors and outdoors, lol.
 drivingharmony2
Joined: 6/23/2013
Msg: 142
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/13/2014 6:44:23 AM

Though at no point did I say or imply "all women" - I said "so many on this forum".


Fair enough, my bad.....

=

When a man does though, he gets pounced on and usually by the same women for whom man-bashing is their primary hobby on the forum.


Not necessarily accurate but I think "we" are on the same page. Yes, it gets boring and sometimes quite laughable.
 drivingharmony2
Joined: 6/23/2013
Msg: 143
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/13/2014 7:46:34 AM

I think the problem probably came from the OP getting physical before building comfort with his date and jumping into something physical without doing it in steps. On the same note, on these types of sites you definitely run into a lot of people that are into the meat market thing.


CW: OP is a woman, and she did not get physical with her date. In fact, he got "handsy" and she turned him down. Basically, she was wondering if this is how all online dating guys act. I was just thinking if OP was turned off by his behavior, why even ponder a second date. And since the date did not contact her further, obviously he was not interested or just interested in sex. But, I am curious if this date called her to go on a second date, would she have
accepted? After delving into OP's post further, I'm not so sure the date was not a gentleman. OP notes the initial phone contact talked about sexual topics, OP tried to steer the conversation away, but "somehow" it came back to sex. So, OP thinks this guy is not a gentleman. Personally, I'm not so sure.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 6/22/2012
Msg: 144
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/13/2014 7:52:47 AM
trying to get back to the original post -

We move to texting and he begins texting very suggestive sexual things. When I tell him I am uncomfortable with the conversation he says he knows. I ask if we can have a normal conversations and never hear from him again. Okay there is my answer. My question is are all men going to be that way?

All men at NOT going to be that way. A lot of people assume the past will be an indicator of the future, that their previous experiences mean everything when it comes to interpreting the actions of the next person. It shouldn't. Each person should be judged by the own behaviors and actions.

Talking about sex should be a COMFORTABLE thing, not something to be deliberately avoided. That goes for ANY other topic of discussion as well. It does a person well to realize their own 'trigger' topics that set off emotional reactions and understand that how THEY react, has a lot to do with how the OTHER person will react. Dates who stay completely ignorant and unsympathetic to those reactions are the ones to worry about, but ALSO keep in mind - the other person is not a mind reader, and if you suppress any natural reaction out of fear or lack of confidence, you are sending the wrong signals. Be yourself - but more important, recognize what 'yourself' means.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 145
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/13/2014 9:22:14 AM
"We move to texting...."

You meet guys here (or on other dating sites), you send messages back and forth, you mentioned with at least the first guy, the next step was talking on the phone, and then you move to texting each other. All of this before even meeting in person for a short coffee meet. The main mistake you made is spending too much time hiding behind a screen. Move to texting is not a step forward. Meeting someone face-to-face will tell you more about a person than sending pixels and hiding.

My take is they got bored with your childish nonsense of constant electronic messaging without meeting and are messing with you. As far as they know, you could be a 13 year old messing with them, or a man, or a 400 pound 70 year-old person. They don't know and they are not going to waste time with you to find out and won't care if you end up blocking them.
 TOaks91360
Joined: 11/22/2013
Msg: 146
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/13/2014 10:12:12 AM
The only thing that values a doormat is a pair of dirty shoes. Don't be a doormat:)
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 147
view profile
History
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/13/2014 12:53:33 PM
CW: OP is a woman, and she did not get physical with her date. In fact, he got "handsy" and she turned him down. Basically, she was wondering if this is how all online dating guys act. I was just thinking if OP was turned off by his behavior, why even ponder a second date. And since the date did not contact her further, obviously he was not interested or just interested in sex. But, I am curious if this date called her to go on a second date, would she have
accepted? After delving into OP's post further, I'm not so sure the date was not a gentleman. OP notes the initial phone contact talked about sexual topics, OP tried to steer the conversation away, but "somehow" it came back to sex. So, OP thinks this guy is not a gentleman. Personally, I'm not so sure.

My bad. I got them mixed up. What I was trying to say is that the man needed to build comfort and take the physical side of things in small steps intead of creeping her out. I realize there are a high number of people on here just looking for a one night stand. Before my friend got married, she was meeting a guy for coffee and he kept changing his mind and asking her to meet him in his truck instead. Like they say, you have to kiss a lot of frogs first.
 lauraboowho
Joined: 1/24/2014
Msg: 148
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/13/2014 3:37:51 PM
WELL I AM LOOKING FOR A GENTLEM ALSO , YES I HAVE TALK TO MEN THAT JUST TALK ABOUT SEX OR TRY TO BRING IT UP AT TIMES. NEVER A GOOD MALE THAT JUST WANTS TO WATCH A MOVIES THEN GO TO A PARK AN OTHER DAYS DO GOOD THINGS , I WANT TO KNOW A PERSON BEFORE I GET INTO THE BED NOWADAYS THERE GERMS AN GERMS . IT IS SO TRUE WHAT YOU SAY . THANKS
 patchman1313
Joined: 8/18/2013
Msg: 149
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 2/14/2014 12:01:40 AM
Some of these jerks that push the sex thing too early or who are really aggressive must have some success with it. If it totally failed all the time they would switch things up. I think that women, like men, also have fantasies about having unattached sex with a stranger. The difference is that women tend to be treated differently when they engage in that sort of behavior. Some women claim to be suckered in by certain men when they knew deep down what they were getting themselves into. The problem is that no matter what any women or man says on this forum or anywhere else, aggressive guys may be hated more than shy guys but the aggressive guys are still going to get more girls. This is due to thousands of years of evolution and it is imbedded deep into the subconscious. If you don't believe me look at the psychological research related to sex and mating behaviors in humans.
ATB Patchman
 NikonGuy007
Joined: 4/1/2012
Msg: 150
view profile
History
Are there any gentlemen out there?
Posted: 9/25/2015 5:41:51 PM
I did not read the original post
but,
here is what I tell any female who comes crying to me about some guy who "did her wrong"
or
is single, but can't find her Prince Charming.

Ask 10 random men (NOT guys who married the first woman who smiled at them, when they were 19 years-old)
and
7 of those 10 will agree with this (and I had this conversation with a former boss when she rhetorically asked, "Where are all the gentlemen?"

If, IF indeed "Chivalry is dead", then women killed it.

NOT ALL. However, unfortunately a significant part of the population has "ruined it for everyone". Most adult men can tell you about a time or 3, when they treated a woman like pure platinum
and
she kicked him where the sun don't shine
with the pointy end of her Louboutins
and
she
walked away
smiling.

Here they come. Do you hear them?

"Well, women can say the same thing about men......................................."

I do not doubt it
but,
that is not what THIS thread is about.

I used to work in child support. Did it for 7 years. Time, and time, and time, and time and time and time again......................I have seen very attractive, seemingly kind women, who put up with ALL manner of (repeated) abuse and disrespect. I wrote, "Time and time and time and time and time ...................again."

None of these guys were "gentlemen"
but,
they got the girl.

I was never an Oprah fan
but,
among her many 'crusades', was coming out against "misogynistic" lyrics in hip hop music. She asked some artist about it, and he had the PERFECT answer: "Oprah, when that music comes on, the women envelope the dance floor. They go crazy. If the music is so disrespectful to women, why do the women in the club respond so positively to it?"

Oprah just shook her head, with a sad look and said, "I don't know why they love to dance to music that calls them b*t#&'$ and h*es."

Granted, it is safe to assume that the women in the club are not 50 & 60 year-old's.......................but A LOT of women respond positively to poor treatment. Maybe not YOU.

Rule #1 of sales=Give the customer what they want.

And a LARGE number of (20, 30, 40 year-old women) do NOT respond positively to, 'gentlemen'.

It is NOT about what people SAY they want; it's about what they RESPOND to.
Show ALL Forums  > Dating Experiences  > Are there any gentlemen out there?