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 phule
Joined: 4/8/2004
Msg: 12
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Where am I going wrong?Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)

Now, could it stand to reason that IF a lot of women could indeed use some MORE logical thinking in their approach and choices, these same women would be more like.......... men?

It might stand to reason if the only thing that separated men and women was logic. It does stand to reason that if a number of women used more logical thinking in their approach and choices, they would get along better with men... just like men tend to get along better with other like-minded men. You know, those male friendships where you can say anything, actually only have to say little, and always find a way to get along.

Hmm.... that sounds like a pretty cool relationship if you could have one with a woman. The knowledge that you COULD say anything and not get screamed at/thrown out, the knowledge that you don't really have to say anything and life would still be good, and the knowledge that no matter what happens you know that you will always find a way to get along. I'd love it if I could find a woman who would get along like that.

*sigh*
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 13
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Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 1:58:39 AM

Well, I bit the bullet and asked one of the girls I've been on what I've asked here, and the response I got was this:

I totally understand where you're coming from. I have also have had a difficult time with dating lately, and I didn't mean to come across as a jerk in my text. The reason I sent it was because i honestly just didn't feel a personal connection - like when you meet someone for the first time and you just "click", conversation flows naturally, etc. It honestly has nothing to do with your personality or your looks, because both are great. From the date though, I just didn't get the vibe that your personality was something that would really "turn into anything" with mine in the long run, and I didn't want to lead you on.

Which is honest....but it doesn't really help me very much


How does it not help you? It tells you exactly what you need to know. I'll break it down for you.

When she said she doesn't feel a personal connection, it means she didn't feel attraction. Remember, attraction isn't a choice and you can't convince anyone to feel it for you. There has to be a bit of push and pull when you interact with people. A cat will play with a string if you dangle it, but if you give it the string, it wil become bored and walk away. Imagine going to to see some romance movie that you're just not into. It could be one of the best movies in the world, but if it doesn't make you feel something, you're not going to buy it on dvd.

She said you guys didn't "click" because there was a lack of attraction and that caused her to lose interest and become less engaged, and less invested in the situation. You have show a more "alpha male" side of yourself. That doesn't mean you have to be a bully with big muscles that makes fun of everyone. Imagine a rock star or famous actor. Is there any doubt that other women want them, that they're seen as a "leader" of their social circle and that they're not intimidated by beautiful women? You need to communicate those things when you interact with people.

When she said it won't turn into anything in the long run, she's restating the fact that she didn't feel attraction. Conversation is great, but you also need some animal magnetism. Think about that qualities make you attracted to the women you meet, physical and personality wise. What I'm trying to get at is that you need to reframe things so your focus is on yourself instead of your date. Stop worrying about trying to impress her or getting her to accept you. Concentrate on having a good time and sharing that feeling with whoever is with you and then you'll start to get better emotional responses from your dates.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 14
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 6:37:48 AM
Which is honest....but it doesn't really help me very much


It should help you. It's awesome recon. She was willing to tell you that you didn't connect. And in the end that is all there's to it. I had about a month ago a date with a very good looking runner girl. We connected mentally, had a great time, but no bells. Then I had a date with an absolute 10, she could have been in the runways of Milan, yet, no connection. Then I went out with a tall, skinny blond, that turned out to be an artsy geek. The magnetism was out of this world. We are still going strong.

So each exchange, each thing that you do with women makes you wiser and teaches you something new.

Also, you may have a problem with your techniques that amplify their sense of attraction. These techniques work quite well, if anything they also allow you to read the situation like an open book.


Stop worrying about trying to impress her or getting her to accept you. Concentrate on having a good time and sharing that feeling with whoever is with you and then you'll start to get better emotional responses from your dates.


This is a big problem with young people. You're trying to impress instead of being impressed. Perhaps next time you can try to get inside her head. HOw do you do that? You ask her a ton of fun, chit-chat questions.


Remember, attraction isn't a choice and you can't convince anyone to feel it for you. There has to be a bit of push and pull when you interact with people.


However, there are non-verbal techniques that allow to push and pull and amplify attraction.
 badzee28
Joined: 10/16/2013
Msg: 16
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 9:42:39 AM
Sometimes, I think I just feel like people put way too much emphasis on "chemistry" though. When you meet someone for the first time, you're not seeing the whole person. And just because there is chemistry doesn't mean that indicates there's something there. I met a girl online a few months back that I had fantastic chemistry with that I dated for almost two months. I wish I hadn't, as she turned out to be a very horrible, toxic person with some serious, deep seated issues. It just makes me question people who always claim "there has to be chemistry" right off the bat.

I've always shied away from the macho stereotype. I personally hate it. Truth be told, I wasn't always attractive or in good shape. I grew up as the quiet type that was always getting picked on by those types of people. Without coming off as arrogant, I'm a pretty big guy. But I don't want to be that stereotypical macho, in your face, alpha male. The whole idea turns me off.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 6/22/2012
Msg: 17
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 10:13:31 AM
You don't have to be the alpha of ALL males - just of her. Having enough confidence to show you're capable of making wise 'group' decisions for her and yourself. You avoid arrogance by allowing her input and recognizing her decisions and not ignoring them - but you don't wimp out and follow her every move if you don't agree with it.

If you're meeting women who refuse to let ANY guy be their 'alpha', then you're dealing with women that have other issues that gave them those chips on their shoulders. Instead of confronting them as an adversary, show curiosity in their decision-making process and find a way to compromise.

People that claim the chemistry has to be 'instant' are pretty much not mature enough to recognize the time it takes to really get to know a person. They're the people that keep coming back to online dating time and time again. Let them be the impatient ones, not you.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 18
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 11:41:31 AM

But I don't want to be that stereotypical macho, in your face, alpha male. The whole idea turns me off.


Very good. And the truth is that you do not have to come across that way. Yet, you do have to come across as having confidence. And confidence has to do with your ability to live with whatever decision you have to make and just do it.
And part of that is what makes chemistry. Relationships are not based on logic, on thinking, on mental ideas, but on feelings, emotions, desires. The more you want to reduce it to cognition, the more you will hit the wall, the more that you understand that is emotional and yes chemistry, the more you will flow, the more you will succeed.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 19
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Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 12:08:12 PM

Sometimes, I think I just feel like people put way too much emphasis on "chemistry" though. When you meet someone for the first time, you're not seeing the whole person. And just because there is chemistry doesn't mean that indicates there's something there. I met a girl online a few months back that I had fantastic chemistry with that I dated for almost two months. I wish I hadn't, as she turned out to be a very horrible, toxic person with some serious, deep seated issues. It just makes me question people who always claim "there has to be chemistry" right off the bat.


You're right that you're not seeing EVERY aspect of a person, but you still get a first impression that gives you a lot of imformation. They don't need to know everything about you right off the bat, you just need to communicate confidence over insecurity and abundance over scarcity. That's what they mean by chemistry. No chemistry means that you communicated the wrong ideas through your words and actions and nothing about you interested them enough to want a second date. The idea that I'm trying to get across to you is that you need to communicate things that will trigger enough attraction so she's interested in a second date. It's about emotions, it's not about convincing people or logic.


I've always shied away from the macho stereotype. I personally hate it. Truth be told, I wasn't always attractive or in good shape. I grew up as the quiet type that was always getting picked on by those types of people. Without coming off as arrogant, I'm a pretty big guy. But I don't want to be that stereotypical macho, in your face, alpha male. The whole idea turns me off.


This was already addressed in my earlier post, but I can see that you still don't understand the concept, so I'll go into more detail. You don't have to be the stereotype of the "macho man". You need to be the leader of YOUR tribe or YOUR social circle. If you're a musician, be the lead singer personality. If you're a computer programmer, be the guy that organizes your group and puts together the finished product. If you're an artist, be the art teacher personality. The point is that you need to be yourself, but the best version of yourself. Confidence, not arrogance. Remember, arrogance is about proving something and confidence is about improving. Confidence means that you don't have to put anyone else down to feel like you're enough, and that's why you don't need to be the macho man.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 20
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 12:53:20 PM

The point is that you need to be yourself, but the best version of yourself. Confidence, not arrogance. Remember, arrogance is about proving something and confidence is about improving.


Arrogance tries to sell you something, confidence sells it without having to use the words.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 6/22/2012
Msg: 21
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 2:49:27 PM

My question about all of this is how long do you give someone to 'grow on you' (in terms of attraction)? That may be rhetorical or one with no one answer, but I am interested in people's differing views on this.

I fear that in the last 18 months I have erred on the side of giving someone a chance longer than I should have. It's happened a couple of times. These were perfectly fine guys - relatively attractive, stable. I'd meet them and like them just fine but..... didn't feel any instant draw towards them. Because they were nice, I continued to see them (note - I split the check when I date, so I am not 'using' anyone to buy me food, drink, whatever) I'd do my best to enjoy myself, concentrate on the positive about them, get to know them.

Still, after several dates/a few weeks it became clear to me that I was not experiencing any growing attraction. When they started to push the relationship to a sexual place (which I did not find to be at all inappropriate as that is a huge part of starting to date someone) I realized I could not see myself going there.

At this point, telling someone 'sorry I gave this a chance, but my feelings have not developed further' seems to REALLY piss people off. Man did I hear about it. Like I wasted their time.

Giving a person a few dates - say, maybe 6-8 hours of one-on-one interaction time total - divided between a few different meets - is PLENTY of time to evaluate someone. The people that install a 'revolving door' on their online dating entrance usually jump to conclusions about 'chemistry' in the first 18 SECONDs to 18 minutes of the first meet.

If you are interested in sex in a relationship at all, then yeah, you'll entertain that thought of being with them within a few dates, even if you don't act on it. If the spark is not there, don't waste time 'hoping'. Say what you feel.

Some people will get pissed off at ANY rejection, and it won't matter if it's been one date or twenty. If you're able to communicate well at date one, that should give you an idea that it's OK to go further - and that it's OK to call it off at a later time because BOTH of you will understand when it's not working. The ones that get pissed are usually completely ignorant of the other's needs and really don't listen to conversations very well, and that's usually obvious right away.
 phule
Joined: 4/8/2004
Msg: 22
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Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 5:35:53 PM

Sometimes, I think I just feel like people put way too much emphasis on "chemistry" though. When you meet someone for the first time, you're not seeing the whole person. And just because there is chemistry doesn't mean that indicates there's something there.

There is something to be said for chemistry. That desire to spend more time with a person, that desire to get to know them. Yes, you are not seeing the whole person when you meet them the first time... and indeed just because there is chemistry it does not mean that there is something there. But tell us... how many women do YOU pursue that you are not interested in? Be honest. Do you want us to believe that you are messaging EVERY SINGLE woman who has a profile on here? How many women that have profiles without pictures do you message? Again... be honest.

You are letting "chemistry" decide who you pursue. All it is, is that certain something inside you... the little voice... that says "Hmm... I think I'd like to get to know this person". That chemistry that you think too many people put emphasis on... you are just as guilty of it. All of this... this thread... isn't about how letting chemistry decide is unfair. This is all about how YOU felt that chemistry to one degree or another, and the feeling wasn't returned. You want a chance when you aren't being given one, because you believe you could prove to be what she wants. You believe this because YOU want to be with HER and you want her to return the sentiment.

So, start evaluating the criteria you are using to contact women, and you will find you are using chemistry too.... and maybe that will help you to understand that getting into a relationship isn't like applying for a job. It's about finding a partner you are compatible with.

Here's an example. If she wants you to pursue her, and you want to walk together... don't waste your time. Stop thinking like you can change her mind or desires to fit you.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 23
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 6:07:45 PM

There is something to be said for chemistry.


That does it. I'm going to a hobby store and buy a chemistry set and make a love potion that creates instant chemistry. I should be able to find the formula on the net. I just hope I don't need weird stuff like the eye of a gnat or the tongue of a spider.
 TrustInKarma
Joined: 2/14/2014
Msg: 24
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/18/2014 6:37:21 PM
Iteration77 - agree 100%, I have tried to give guys a chance that I didn't feel chemistry for, and it just doesn't work. I can tell in the first five minutes if I'm attracted to someone or not. And it has nothing to do with looks - I've gone out on dates with plenty of handsome guys that I felt NOTHING for. Just didn't click. It's like an energy that I feel when I'm attracted to someone, and you just can't force it. Now what CAN happen is that I see the guy that I had mad chemistry with in a more realistic light further down the line and lose my attraction, but it takes quite a bit before I get there.

I wish I could consciously choose whom I'm attracted to, would make my dating life a whole lot easier.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 25
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/19/2014 1:40:51 PM

The people that install a 'revolving door' on their online dating entrance usually jump to conclusions about 'chemistry' in the first 18 SECONDs to 18 minutes of the first meet.


That is not exclusive to those that have a revolving door. I can tell in those first 10 seconds if I am attracted to them or not. And I do not call it jumping to conclusions but simply trusting my instinct. I'm yet to be wrong about it.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 26
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/20/2014 8:08:10 AM
I do not understand the subgroup of people (of both genders) on here who are so bitter that seemingly every contribution they make to every discussion ends up with them spewing their disdain for the opposite sex. That can not be a very pleasant way to live.


Beautifully said.

And dare you paint a positive outlook of human relations.

Or... taking responsibility instead of acting like angry victims. (Both sexes)
 phule
Joined: 4/8/2004
Msg: 27
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Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/20/2014 12:08:23 PM

taking responsibility instead of acting like angry victims

Hey now.... sometimes victims can take responsibility back AND still get angry.... not that I'm saying this applies here.

I still believe that the OP is guilty of relying on chemistry to pick the women he wants, while at the same time complaining that chemistry is keeping the women he wants from wanting him. It is like he is throwing darts into a crowd of women to pick who he is going to go for, and complaining about the darts being thrown back at him.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 28
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/20/2014 2:13:41 PM

Hey now.... sometimes victims can take responsibility back AND still get angry.... not that I'm saying this applies here.


You're totally right dude. I think in your case you are seeing the light and finding your path away from a terrible situation.
 badzee28
Joined: 10/16/2013
Msg: 29
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 2/22/2014 3:50:32 PM
To coma_white, here's the thing; I AM a leader. I'm in the military, and being a leader is a huge element of the Armed Forces. The longer I am in and the higher I go, the more responsibility I will have. With my job in particular, there is a quite a bit of responsibility. Without networks and communications you have nothing, and keeping information safe is very crucial not only to the Navy but national security as well. So thing about being a leader is already covered. I just think people have a very broad concept of what a leader is. Yes confidence is important, but what is more important is taking care of the people below you. A leader is only as good as the people below you, and if they can't depend on you, then why would they go out of their way to make you look good?

Phule, I think you are confusing general attraction with chemistry. When I am browsing profiles, I do indeed go for people I am attracted to. I will admit that looks will catch my eye, but beyond that I also look at things like interests, intelligence, their integrity, if they seem like a nice person, etc. Those are the factors that I look at when messaging people. Chemistry is when you actually meeting the person, and the stars align and the dates goes really well and you "click".

I've dated a variety of different types. While yes, there has to be some sort of physical attraction, beyond that I don't have super high standards. I've had girls message me on here that I wasn't initially attracted to, and I gave them a chance. There was on girl that I wasn't really attracted to that I met on here that I went out on two dates with. You couldn't see it in her pictures, but she had something that's called "graves disease". It basically makes your eyes bulge out of your face.

It was a bit intimidating to look at to be honest, but I went on two dates with her anyway, because I wanted to see if I could find a way to be able to look passed it and enjoy her personality. Sadly, I couldn't get passed that and I felt really bad, but I was honest with her after the second date and told her that I didn't think we were right for each other. I try not to rule people out, and I don't think it's a big deal to go on one or two more dates with someone just to be sure. Some people open up more when they are comfortable and you see them in a better light. I've seen this happen before. Just because someone isn't good at dating doesn't mean they wouldn't be good in a relationship.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 30
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Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 3/30/2014 11:19:20 PM

To coma_white, here's the thing; I AM a leader. I'm in the military, and being a leader is a huge element of the Armed Forces. The longer I am in and the higher I go, the more responsibility I will have. With my job in particular, there is a quite a bit of responsibility. Without networks and communications you have nothing, and keeping information safe is very crucial not only to the Navy but national security as well. So thing about being a leader is already covered. I just think people have a very broad concept of what a leader is. Yes confidence is important, but what is more important is taking care of the people below you. A leader is only as good as the people below you, and if they can't depend on you, then why would they go out of their way to make you look good?


That's good that you're in a leadership role in the military, but we're talking about dating. If you want to get an emotional response from someone, you have to convey things that count. It's more important that she sees you as being the leader of your social circle or that you convey leadership qualities when you're with her. It doesn't matter if you're the manager of a restaurant or an officer in the military. If you don't convey the qualities of a high value male, you won't get an emotional response from a high percentage of women. There are managers, lead singers, officers, cops, etc, that have an easy time attracting women and there are those who have a difficult time. Confidence is good, but competence and knowing the basics is way more important.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 31
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 3/31/2014 7:32:54 AM

It's more important that she sees you as being the leader of your social circle or that you convey leadership qualities when you're with her.


Be careful with this idea. In the one side it's true. One of the reasons many women love men of uniform and cops. Yet, leadership with your men, company, team is slightly different than leadership with your mate. With a mate you are better off showing a quiet confidence and assertiveness, rather than barking orders and telling people what to do.

Actually there are a couple of good books out there about leadership, that believe it or not, make you more effective with women, than just leading a group of people.
 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 32
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Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 3/31/2014 7:44:51 AM
OP, when you are out in the real world, you meet dozens of new people in a matter of days, do you expect to have some sort of serious connection with the first 3 that come down the street? No, that would be silly wouldn't it? Yet you expect that on here? Why?

Perhaps you need to realign what you are looking for vs what you dates are looking for, be completely honest with yourself and what you plan to offer someone, casual dating is not going to interest many women, while it sound like fun on the surface, there is plenty that can go wrong and unless there is a serious connection, most wont bother. You need to understand that for many good looking women, getting someone to go out with them with no strings attached is about as easy as it gets.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 33
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Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 3/31/2014 10:43:37 AM

Be careful with this idea. In the one side it's true. One of the reasons many women love men of uniform and cops. Yet, leadership with your men, company, team is slightly different than leadership with your mate. With a mate you are better off showing a quiet confidence and assertiveness, rather than barking orders and telling people what to do.


That's exactly what I mean. Displaying that your friends look up to you is always a good thing to do. Of course you're not going to talk to your date like a new army recruit. That would demonstrate lack of social awareness and convey low value.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 34
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 3/31/2014 11:47:11 AM
1) some women love the uniform b/c of how good it makes THEM look. they attracted the guy who earned the clothes.

2)the only thing working for the alpha male, is that he's willing to ask a woman out. He takes that initiative, and the law of averages does the rest.

3)women only want to be lead to where they wanted to go in the first place. If women were weak enough to enjoy all leadership, we'd all be getting them in bed :)

4)women find looks important, too. they'll chase a guy who's better looking than them, accept the guy who's at their level and is fun, and "settle" (a relative term) for the guy who is not in their league but has a great personality to compensate. and the guy who isn't close to their league but has a great personality? he's their best friend. nothing wrong with that.

5)as you pointed out, OP, you've turned down some people, too. it wasn't anything reflective on their ability to be attractive to SOMEONE, they just weren't perfect for you, and you know from the amount of responses you get, that you can wait it out.

so...other people are doing the same to you. nothing wrong there, right?
 medit83
Joined: 4/3/2014
Msg: 35
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 4/8/2014 10:33:06 PM
Well, anyone reading my posts by now knows some of what I'm going to say, but my advice here is to not go on dates until you already know the date will be successful because you've said enough to let her know your mind and for you to know hers.

In that case, the introvert in you won't shut down and think "oh crap, I'm in a social situation, what do I do?" and start second guessing yourself. Wait until you are comfortable and you both can't wait to meet each other.

More than that, I'd suggest you talk about the fact of your being an introvert, and be able to say enough on Skype or email that you will already be comfortable when you both get there.

Being attractive might begin with what someone looks like, but by no means does that mean the deal is done. A lot of people post cynically in their profiles about how "you don't care what I write, it just matters what is in the photos". This is a first step, sure, because how you look says A LOT about who you are inside.

Even so, if you stop there, and believe that's exclusively true, then you'll never get to the point where your introverted mind will be comfortable. Go farther until you can be, before meeting. It's OK to say that to a woman, and if it's not OK with a particular woman, then she's not for you. When did the man being comfortable stop meaning anything? Never.

While women typically are pursued and have a lot of skills built up to deflect male attention, this doesn't mean that being comfortable is the exclusive domain of the woman.
 rockin-trucker82
Joined: 1/4/2014
Msg: 36
Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 4/12/2014 8:50:31 PM

You have show a more "alpha male" side of yourself.


This is for everyone. Can we please lay this "alpha male" thing to rest? This all started when someone misused the word in a thread, and now everyone is obsessed with it.

Does anyone actually understand what the alpha male is? It's the strongest in the pack. The most physically capable of having offspring that are strong enough to keep the species surviving. And by that point, the only one that mates.

Being confident doesn't make you an "alpha male", in the animal kingdom, it's beating the crap out of anyone who tries to dethrone you. Want to be the alpha male? You better be strong. Any physical weakness and you're out. You have to be healthy, any terminal sickness, or a family history of something like cancer, you're already weak. A more accurate description of an alpha male is the muscle-head who's in the gym every day who picks fights with random people.

You just need to take charge. Confidence only goes so far. There's confident people who get nothing but rejection, because they don't have the looks. Confidence makes you approach the girl, being attractive to her is what gets her. Take control of your dating life. Figure out the kind of girl you want, and figure out the kind of guy she would want. If it's superficial changes, that's where you start. If it means changing who you are though, you're looking for the wrong type of girl.

And you really really need to do a lot more off of here. You'll be here for a while, pay attention to how many of us will still be here with you. Dating sites, are a business. Their money comes from certain realities that we tend to try to forget exist. You can meet someone here, but an honest poll, would very likely show that most people don't.

And it's not necessarily something that you did wrong. She was there too. Maybe she rejects most guys because she's waiting for something that doesn't exist. Like your one girl who expected to "click" with someone she just met. Don't always be so quick to blame yourself. There's a reason she's single too. And your example's: She expects a fairytale relationship.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 37
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Where am I going wrong?
Posted: 4/13/2014 11:46:55 AM

Being confident doesn't make you an "alpha male", in the animal kingdom, it's beating the crap out of anyone who tries to dethrone you. Want to be the alpha male? You better be strong. Any physical weakness and you're out. You have to be healthy, any terminal sickness, or a family history of something like cancer, you're already weak. A more accurate description of an alpha male is the muscle-head who's in the gym every day who picks fights with random people.


Being the "alpha male" in a social context means being a leader and having qualities that are attractive. It's a metaphor and it's not meant to represent the physically strong alpha male in other species. It's meant to communicate the idea that you share a similar status among your peers. I would call someone that's a singer in a popular rock band an "alpha male" because they're a leader of their community and people look up to them.
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