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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?      Home login  
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 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 26
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?Page 2 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
I guess there is no need for stuff to exist in a conventional way.
Remember, the universe is made out of nothing.

This wasn't exactly my point back there, but a thought can be 'bigger' then the universe.
 basilisk123
Joined: 12/17/2011
Msg: 27
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/17/2014 8:18:33 AM
I don't think the universes are nothing. It is just this one is a zero sum environment. All matter is another form of energy and all energy is either given or taken, but never destroyed. So it stands to reason, that even if the big freeze occured, the energy inherent in our universe will not stop being energy, it will just be in a potential energy (stored) state. I don't know if I am making any sense...too many sci-fi shows I guess. lol
 basilisk123
Joined: 12/17/2011
Msg: 28
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/17/2014 10:05:24 AM
About the measurement problem.
I read it as "it is inherently impossible to predict a particles movement by measurement, because the act of measurement itself will throw off said particle. Thus giving a percentage chance of each probable placement of a measured particle would be the best bet of were the measured particle would be if it was not measured."
Thus shrodingers theory, we cant tell were the particle is, because if we search for it with another particle, it will move again to a different place. Sort of like using a bunkerbuster missle to find an indestructible cue ball. So all we can do is assign a probable placement of location until another known location is determined, but then we return back to the original problem because us searching for it moved ot again.
My head hurts...

my bad, i thought you were talking about quantum placement, instead of waveform collapse.

Same thing still applies I guess.
I think the act of measuring the waveform collapse, will move the particle placement. Thus making a confirmation or future observation of the same particle impossible. Thus a percentage must be assigned until another known is found. Which brings it back to the original problem.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 29
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/17/2014 3:50:48 PM
Andyaa

Well, if its not made out of nothing, then what's it made from?

See, if its made from something, then that something had to have existed forever.
Then god can have existed forever too.

Thy universe is something, but, it kinda has to be made from nothing, which can work fine with the laws of the universe (laws of physics and all).
 basilisk123
Joined: 12/17/2011
Msg: 30
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/22/2014 9:23:52 AM
"You have this slightly wrong, it is the act of measuring or observing that causes the wave collapse. However, once we have established one of its properties eg spin, it is impossible to measure any of the others such as position or speed. This is because it's next position according to qm is indeterminate. It could be over here or over there until we look again. This is known as the uncertainty principle. The wave function is in all places at the same time until we again observe . The weird thing here is that the particle then retraces it's path to that position as if it has always travelled in that direction."-Andyaa

The fact that I got in the same ballpark when I was so completely talking out of my ass makes me happy.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 31
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/26/2014 8:40:28 AM
Mess # 34 sounds good.
If the conditions for existance (aka laws of physics), disappeared, all would be gone.
That's what I mean by made from nothing.
And yeah, there's that proposed singularity.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 32
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/29/2014 10:23:37 AM

If you look at a scaled example of how big humans are versus how big the universe is, it is pretty easy to question our own significance in this universe

imagine it from the view point of that which exist on a microscopic level in which every step a human takes galaxies are crushed, entire universes are wiped out and left in the wake

and while burping after dining on a tasty meal or perhaps so nonchalantly passing gas you will get no arguments from the denizens on those microscopic planets that humans aren't responsible for climate change and global warming as the flatulent gas bubble spewed from the Humanoid encase their microscopic world and apocalyptically burn it to a crisp.... or perhaps mutate everything on it and in turn create new lifeforms..for it is the stuff that Stars are made from

the moral of the story....within the universe even the supposedly minuscule can exist as Gods
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/30/2014 10:40:00 AM

...it is the act of measuring or observing that causes the wave collapse...(etc)...

I find this interesting, because I think of the act of observing as simply "interacting with" when you observe - the universe doesn't "know" that you are "observing", and doesn't think of it as such. So thinking of it this way, I imagine that everything is "observing" everything else all of the time. Therefore, what does that mean, concerning everything else, when it comes to a wave collapsing, etc?

The only other option as I can see it is that there'd have to be something different with our consciousness, or brains, such that it causes this to happen, if it's only happening when we observe.
 basilisk123
Joined: 12/17/2011
Msg: 34
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/31/2014 5:13:33 AM
"If the universe cannot exist except in a state of superposition without humans... how insignificant are we?"-Andyaa

About as significant as anything else that can think in theoretical and abstract thought.
 basilisk123
Joined: 12/17/2011
Msg: 35
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 10/31/2014 6:13:15 AM
"We are according to qm the most significant thing in the universe, including the universe itself for without us, it would not Exist"-Andyaa

That we know of. There is a lot we don't know. The math just doesn't work out for me. I truly believe there are others out there. That some are as intelligent as us. There must be other communal organisms that developed higher intelligence and the ability to have abstract thoughts.

Humans are a very young species. Its kind of like a teenager saying he knows everything because he acquired the knowledge to do basic algebra.

I do find it puzzling how fast we advanced recently though, unsettling even. Just a few thousand years ago, we were in caves, now we been to the moon and are on a realistic projected course to go to a different planet, we can study the very building blocks of the cosmos and theoretically can choose our own evolutionary path through genetic engineering. There is a theory we were influenced by something else that spurred our development with such a huge growth spurt. I really don't think we are as unique and important as we would like to believe. Our hubris will be our downfall one day.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 36
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/2/2014 3:35:32 PM

Puts the concept of aliens or a god into little boxes.


Hardly!
If anything, it puts "god" in the forefront; as we are mere members of the holograph scheme, and not the orchestrators
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 37
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/4/2014 8:09:58 PM

We are not mere members, the hologram is created by US


I'm not sure if this^ is what is being conveyed by most of its proponents
from what I'm gathering, the purported illusion/projection is the 3rd dimension but not the underlying 2D universe

http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html

Seemingly a hot topic in cosmological physics, but what would trouble me with this 'holographic' hypothesis (or conjecture), is that you can't just simply say that the universe is not reality (or illusory)and stop there.... without invoking the possibility that viewing the 3D Universe as "illusory"..... could in and of itself be an illusion(within the illusion)

This ^ of course sucks us into the Godelian conundrums(exemplified by the dialogues below)

Socrates says: what Plato is about to say is false
Plato then says: Socrates has just spoken the truth

Maldecena's proposal stirred some excitement; but it too fell victim to Godel's principle in that it could not be subject to proofs; and the verdict is still out on all the newbees (experimentalists & theorists alike)who are trying to make a name for themselves. Now, if somebody announces a breakthrough which can be solidly supported(if that could ever be possible) to which we can affix Nobel Prize candidacy material, then (and only then) will I lend any serious consideration to it. Nonetheless, I will say that further study in this field should certainly be pursued, regardless of the ultimate outcome. The biggest disservice that can be perpetrated in such undertakings is when the researchers inject their own biases into these studies so to as skew the outcome/conclusion in 1 way or another.


We are the orchestrators!


Of what! an illusion?
{see above}What if the source of this illusion....is also an illusion (propagated by the grand illusion itself!)


Without you the universe and therefore god would not exist.


^ This notion could be quite illusory!
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 38
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/5/2014 7:11:34 AM

With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?


It only makes me happy when I see it driving others nuts.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 39
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/6/2014 8:22:20 AM

the 2D universe is the hologram, the 3D universe is an illusion created by our consciousness. It explains it in the link.


But you previously said that "the hologram was created by US" in msg 46


The hologram is real, in the sense that it's not an illusion,


Not sure what the proper term would be to categorize this supposed hologram; at this stage, what may seem real; may not be real at all! Incidentally, a while back, i was reading about the Shroud of Turin, and how some scientists have now discovered that it is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional figure (who, BTW, looks entirely different on 3D as compared to the 2d image). The point here is that this phenomenon may not just be unique to the inner workings of the Universe; and that it may be something fairly ubiquitous as an example of its parsimonious nature.


but this conundrum comes with most propositions like this. If god created the universe what created god... big bang has a similar problem.


you would have to visualize it from way outside the box
and invoke a realm of eternity (for lack of a more precise word); where there is no continuum; no cause and effect; but just simply "is", so the question of how something got created is inapplicable ( Its quite easy to call something like this as 'nothingness' but does nothingness really exist!) and out of which, the Universe was created(as we have observed it from within to have been created), But within this realm of eternity; the Universe is in perpetual creation, but not in a time line continuum (as we've been experiencing it). Thus, does the universe unfold into the 3d mode the moment we observe it?


if you took one of those atoms and expanded it to the size of the visible universe, each string would be about the size of a small tree, about 12 foot. You would need a colider the size of a galaxy just to see them.


^ which re-inforces my belief that this sort of research would be a virtually impossible undertaking (Don Quixote-esque) or mission; in which there will be all sorts of conundrums or obstacles to deal with.


"you can’t prove string theory, at best you can say “hey, look, my idea has an internal logical consistency.”


You can make your idea or theory as logical sounding (and the Math within it as dazzling) as possible; but if the set of axioms(from which it is derived) are faulty or deficient; then it all adds up to nothing. The problem(in Godelian terms) is that we cannot fully prove any theory as such built from axioms that are internally contrived; so to accept string theory in the way you've framed it; is ultimately based on "faith"; and this wouldn't be too different from what a prelate who states that we ought to believe in God(because what the Holy scriptures say sounds good) even though we can't prove he exists.


Our consciousness seems to create this illusion which begs another of the great questions, what is conscious and where does our consciousness reside?


Its important to understand that the inner workings of the Universe allows for this to happen!
And its not just a function of what the conscious mind is able to do.
The conscious too, is not bound by the physical constraints of the Universe.


Without my mind, the universe (as i know it) wouldn't exist therefore gods existence is conditional on my existence. God did not create me, I created god.


I don't follow!
It might all depend on how you define God and existence(regardless of the infinite number of superpositions). If you die in one reality and continue to exist in another, then how would God not exist (assuming he stopped existing in the reality you just died in, it does not mean he wouldn't exist in the infinite number of others; whether mine or yours, irrespective of our differing futures). Personally, because I believe that consciousness (at least in part) resides or interacts outside the Universe, I do not therefore believe that all is extinguished at the time of death (within a given reality or superposition).
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/6/2014 11:35:21 AM
It is night. It’s always night. A night without stars, without anything - just an infinite emptiness falling away on every side. And so I float, an invisible being in a nonexistent world. How long have I been like this? I don’t know. It feels like years, but that’s just a feeling because there is nothing here by which to mark the time. I try to remember how it was, but my memories are such pale things, and they grow more pale as time drags on. I would pray, but there is nothing to pray to. And so I hope, for hope is all I have: that one day, as inexplicably as I once did, I will begin to dream the world again.

- Thomas D. Davis
 ladymercury
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 41
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/6/2014 12:09:29 PM
Obviously now I'm on the happy side of the equation; I was done work Friday and have a week and a half left in my house ... which gives me nothing but time to contemplate insignificance. And do my own math. For awhile anyway, until I have to get back to the regular, every day grind I was griping about a few weeks ago.

It feels marvelous.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 42
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/6/2014 7:14:37 PM
We aren't orchestraters of this universe, we are important participants.
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 43
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/6/2014 8:35:42 PM

We aren't orchestraters of this universe, we are important participants.


We are participants in the sense that we are no more than an evolved host for bacteria, who's every function is controlled by protein motors acting on billions of years of evolution.

Aside from that, we do not mean jack sh*t.

On the big 24hr clock that is time, it currently is 9:00pm and we arrived at the party right around 8:58pm, we are barely a blip on the radar and will not even be remembered after we are gone.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/6/2014 8:57:56 PM
the universe and other than human life would not mean jack shit without us existing and observing it.

The universe would make no sense without us in it.
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/7/2014 11:19:12 AM
But, whose universe is this? Yours or mine? Is my existence dependent upon you, or yours me? Are you just a temporary autonomous figment of my imagining, or are we all just "I", having a psychological breakdown in which we are all broken shards?
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 46
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/7/2014 7:59:21 PM
in msg 57 you say:


Once I die I cannot observe the universe therefore the universe cannot collapse....


in msg 59 you say:


if I die my universe collapses...


You are either not doing a good job explaining your position or you've fallen victim to your own convolutions.


It follows then if mankind dies, all universes collapse and there are no universes. Everything remains as a wave in spacetime, which tantamount to nothing.


If you truly believe ^ this, then you'd have to explain a Universe which has been unfolding for billions of years way before man-kind came into being. In other words, what the hell was the Universe using to "self excite itself" before any advanced life form (such as ourselves) evolved; such that it was able to develop to what it is now?


is there only one consciousness and it is experiencing every possible scenario of every one that has and will exist for every possible outcome?


If this is the case then it follows that there would be no true death (for our consciousness); thus the death you are referring to is part of the grand illusion along with everything else.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 47
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/8/2014 11:21:41 PM
There is something there already.
The whole system is already in place.
We are not creating the universe from nothing each time.
We just put the final touches to it when we 'create it'.

Yeah! My opinion.
With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/10/2014 11:32:46 AM
We are the result of a masturbating universe?
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 49
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/10/2014 2:00:49 PM
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141106-why-does-anything-exist-at-all
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
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With the insignificance of humans, does it make you happy or sad?
Posted: 11/10/2014 7:44:48 PM
The fine tuned universe exists, regardless of what we think and see.
The qm that we observe is part of this functioning universe.
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