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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Solar power indifference      Home login  
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 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 45
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Hydrogen Fuel car indifferencePage 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
That makes perfect sense, because we all know it's only possible to be interested in one thing at a time...
 1OdDmAnOuT2
Joined: 12/29/2014
Msg: 46
Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 1:21:27 AM
Actually, it makes perfect sense because I cannot currently drive something that does not exist yet.
I am interested in reading about hydrogen fuel cells and many other things.
The indifference with them is that they are not practical for me yet.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 47
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Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 1:51:54 AM

Actually, it makes perfect sense because I cannot currently drive something that does not exist yet.

If by 'does not exist yet' you really mean 'are not freely available in Luxembourg yet', you would be correct. If by 'does not exist yet' you really mean 'the technology is not sufficiently advanced to have entered commercial production', you would be incorrect.

The indifference with them is that they are not practical for me yet.

If I was indifferent to everything that wasn't practical solely for me, I wouldn't have much left to be different about.
 1OdDmAnOuT2
Joined: 12/29/2014
Msg: 48
Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 2:24:00 AM
Oh shut the **** up gingerosity
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 49
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Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 2:34:02 AM
Did you know, with just 10% of the equivalent soya grown in the USA put over to algae hydrogen production, you would displace the use of petrol used by cars in America.

Now you've come full-circle... algae is solar powered! lol
 1OdDmAnOuT2
Joined: 12/29/2014
Msg: 50
Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 2:37:23 AM

Now you've come full-circle... algae is solar powered! lol


But kudos here gingerosity
 1OdDmAnOuT2
Joined: 12/29/2014
Msg: 51
Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 2:52:25 AM

Have you asked yourself, how is this electric being produced in Luxembourg?


Energy is imported.
In terms of electricity, the total generation capacity amounted to 640 MW in 2011, excluding the pump storage plant of Vianden. The total generation capacity of the Creos zone it is about 265 MW, which constitutes an increase compared to 2010. This increase is due to the increase in capacity of photovoltaic plants (11.2 MW).
 1OdDmAnOuT2
Joined: 12/29/2014
Msg: 52
Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 2:54:08 AM
So Tesla must be a mad man to continue down the VHS path?
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 53
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Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 3:39:13 AM

Algae converts it's energy into hydrogen which IS the higher energy potential. This hydrogen is then the equivalent of the battery/head of water/flywheel.

Sure, and there is no disputing that chemical batteries are limited to the standard reduction potentials of stable and reasonably abundant isotopes. Even though we are now applying vanadium redox batteries, flywheels and ultrabatteries on MW scales, it doesn't mean there are no physical limitations to any of these, or any others to come. Flywheels are limited by the tensile strength of the rotating material, as I'm sure you know. However, when you previously asserted that a particular energy harvesting technology (eg. solar) is made useless because of a limitation in a particular energy storage technology (eg. lithium)... it made no sense to me at all. It can simly be coupled to a different type of storage.

While we're re-hashing from last page, I notice they're working on storing gravitational potential energy with sand/gravel to get around the evaporation losses and poor overlap of high insolation and water abundance that you didn't like about the head of water storage. I'll be interested to see how that might develop, since something like 99% of clean energy is stored via the head of water method at the moment.

I think the anology with Betamax/VHS is valid only in a very limited sense - perhaps within particular countries for particular applications. Hydrogen may dominate in one car market, and EV in another. Thorium reactors and wind might provide grid base load in some areas, geothermal and solar in others. Nasa is looking at solar with flywheel load levelling for NEOs, but beyond the inner solar system nuclear makes more sense than solar. And let's not forget fusion, which is just around the corner (still).

Yes, everything is solar if you go back far enough... even geothermal and nuclear. But I was talking about directly harvesting the energy from the sun now when pointing out that algae is solar powered. In that regard, Algae/H2 = PV/Li or PV/FES.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 54
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Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 5:11:30 AM

You could use solar panels to produce electric for hydrolysis and obtain the hydrogen that way. It would just be grossly inefficient, both financially and environmentally. In the same way they are inefficient at producing grid electric. You see time and time again, these companies folding after so many promises.

Grossly inefficient according to your current understanding if its limitations. Is there a physics reason you know of that it cannot become more efficient than algae? I'm not biased against algae, I like it. I just don't want to close my mind to other possibilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_photosynthesis

Where they work well, domestic solar panels can either pump electric into the grid, offsetting your electric bill but not the set up cost, or you can store the electric in a flywheel for example but not supply the grid or the set up cost.

Well I already pointed out the difference here. In Aus we get 2-3 times the Wh/m2 that you do in the UK. We do make back the set-up cost over the lifespan of the system, with or without subsidy.

If you don't get more than 5 hours of direct sunlight you are going to have to rely on grid electric which needs to be variable for energy spikes like these, which solar cannot cater for but fossil power generators have been driven out of production through heavily subsidised 'green' power. Where they don't work well, like northern Europe and Germany where I've seen them buried in snow for months at a time??

Why would anyone want to live somewhere where you only get 5 hours of direct sunlight? Anyway, if we're talking globally, the strange people living up there in the dark aren't much of a concern.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/07/map-more-than-half-of-humanity-lives-within-this-circle/

While Africa is only a billion people at the moment, Nigeria is projected to hit a billion just on it's own this century. The point is the vast majority of the population has extremely good solar energy resources. Relying on your almost-arctic solar economics is highly unrepresentative.


Lithium batteries, brilliant. Great in gadgets and portable devices, charge quickly, last for hours, but useless when you try to scale up to cars or lorries.

its not that the technology's being suppressed, the physics is against you.

We seem to be going around in circles here - if not lithium, then something else. FES. H2. Whatever you want.

You could start 'growing' your own fuel tomorrow and make petrol/gas a thing of the past in the developed world within 10 years

I am not indifferent to algae. There are significant bioengineering milestones being reached with it as we speak. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_hydrogen_production_%28Algae%29
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 55
Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 5:45:28 AM

Anybody want to enlighten me on how they go from a 4-5 hour estimated workshop charge for replacing tesla s batteries to doing it on the road side in 90 seconds for $60 ?


I think they are called advancements in technology.

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/batteryswap


 
VHS won out even though betamax was the superior product. Now some people will argue this case because by definition, how can an inferior product out perform a superior one. Well it's all to do with what's called 'whole product'. Betamax was technically superior but vhs was cheaper, you could rent/buy more films and the product was available over a greater range.


The Beta / VHS wat was won by VHS because the porn industry adopted VHS as the standard.

A problem that should be avoided by companies going together and adopting a standard which is not possible as Tesla has released all pattens.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 56
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Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 5:50:04 AM
Yes, I've just been reading the artificial photosynthesis page I linked to which explains the inefficiency of that intermediate conversion.

There are some areas where we could improve on algae: "Photosynthetic organisms are able to collect about 50% of incident solar radiation, but photochemical cells could use materials absorbing a wider range of solar radiation."

Unfortunately photochemical cells don't seem very well researched at this stage. The bioengineering approach is far more advanced.
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 57
Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 5:53:52 AM

No one see something wrong here?


I do.

That fact that seem to be still confused even though provide a link that explains it all.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 58
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Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 5:58:30 AM

Are you confusing direct sunlight with hours of daylight?

I don't think so, I'm just looking at annual kWh/m2. The peak insolation in the UK is as low as the lowest insolation in Tasmania. UK is 750-1100kWh, Aus is 1100-2300kWh. There's a reason the World Solar Challenge runs from Darwin to Adelaide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SolarGIS-Solar-map-Australia-en.png
http://www.contemporaryenergy.co.uk/solarmap.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 59
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Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 7:36:12 AM
India has a great solar energy resource. The Thar desert alone is big enough to generate 700GW to 2100GW if fully utilised. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_India

Even if there is the odd rainy month, what of it? I haven't seen anyone claim they or any other country can run on 100% solar with no base load plants, storage or backup. Besides, a lot of people who would benefit from solar in India have no power in any month right now.

Are you sure your indifference isn't just because it is not practical for you?
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 60
Electric car is available and practical
Posted: 1/2/2015 10:30:42 AM
I have solar panels and they are extremely efficient even on cold murky days in winter. Solar panels in my part of the world are very popular, largely due to government subsidies. The good thing about it is my power bill is negligible, compared to what it used to be.
240 volts is the standard in my country, so I have investigated hooking up 10 24 volt batteries to be self sufficient and off the grid altogether. it is possible however it is economically unviable due to the cost of the batteries and their relatively short lifespan.

It is a similar problem to the unviability of electric cars you guys are talking about. At this point in time anyway.
 Countryheart1967
Joined: 5/19/2014
Msg: 61
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Solar power indifference
Posted: 1/9/2015 7:00:46 AM
^^^^^

And how does arcing make amps higher? Arc faults are always less current (which is amperage) than their short circuit counterparts. What you suggest does not follow Ohm's law. :/

A megawatt can just as easily be 5000V at 200A. Once again, Ohm's law.
 Countryheart1967
Joined: 5/19/2014
Msg: 62
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Solar power indifference
Posted: 1/9/2015 8:55:17 AM

Who said it did?


The sentence structure you used implied that, easily misunderstood.


I don't think you'd be able to go over 1500V because of arcing WHICH makes the amperage rediculously high.
 Countryheart1967
Joined: 5/19/2014
Msg: 63
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Solar power indifference
Posted: 1/9/2015 9:03:30 AM

Are you going to plug that one in?


No, I'm only qualified to service up to 600V. :p
Though I have worked in very close proximity (inches) of 7200V.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 64
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Solar power indifference
Posted: 1/29/2015 3:12:09 PM
@hfx:

My last car I put on ~240,000kms in three years which equaled ~ 48 oil changes which is ~ 200L of oil for just one car. If I extrapolate that out to the ~# of petrol burning vehicles on the road that is a sh*t of fluids, so yes I do think that they do make a difference.

I call bullcrap. 3 years is 36 months. Are you trying telling us that you changed your oil about once every 3 weeks, so you could travel 133,000 miles?
 satx78218
Joined: 10/30/2007
Msg: 65
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Solar power indifference
Posted: 1/30/2015 2:12:30 PM
144K miles / 48 changes = 3000 miles/change, which is standard recommendation, except in California where the govt recommends every 5000 miles
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 66
Solar power indifference
Posted: 1/30/2015 3:01:59 PM

I call bullcrap. 3 years is 36 months. Are you trying telling us that you changed your oil about once every 3 weeks, so you could travel 133,000 miles?


Yep, that is what I did and I have all the paper work to back that up.

So call bull crap all you want, but I was the guy putting on those KM's and getting the oil changed at regular intervals, which for that car was every 5000kms.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 67
Solar power indifference
Posted: 4/29/2015 12:16:54 AM
"Why does it seem that solar power hasn't or isn't catching the interest of the majority?"
Because most people aren't trained to use it, and are not disciplined enough to use limited electric energy.
I think that the solar industry is at the "Betamax" stage of development right now. In ten or twenty years we may see the value go up and the cost plummet, as well as being simpler to use. If not for subsidies, solar would still be dead, and there is no telling how long that will continue.
And as far as battery cars are concerned, given the way people use battery devices now, like cellphones and cameras, the towtrucks will be very busy handling all the dead battery cars from users who kept going when the little red light started blinking. In addition , where will all the power come from to charge them all?
 satx78218
Joined: 10/30/2007
Msg: 68
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Solar power indifference
Posted: 4/29/2015 1:03:14 PM
there is no "limited electric energy" with solar connected to the grid.

the cost of solar panels has plummeted down the silicon and volume manufacturing curve by many 10s of %, and continues to decline, as well as inevitable sola panel efficiency breakthroughs that push it well above the average 20% now.

The target now is "soft costs", bureaucracy, permitting, cost of sales, labor.

Solar isn't "still be dead". It's exploding worldwide. The biggest impediment to even more explosive growth, esp in USA, is political (BigElectric trying to maintain its monopoly and buy politicians to protect itself), not technical or financial.

There is an infrastructure impediment which is the cost of converting the grid to bi-directional current flow.

All subsidies, $100Bs, and tax breaks for BigCarbon could help with that grid cost, but BigCarbon owns sufficient politicians also to defend itself.

While Tesla is betting on batteries, all the big auto mfrs are betting heavily on FCEVs and coming out with models in the next few years. The monstrosity of hybrid cars has also peaked, even declining.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 69
Solar power indifference
Posted: 4/30/2015 9:29:04 PM
The original question was - "Why does it seem that solar power hasn't or isn't catching the interest of the majority?"
And my answer was - Because most people aren't trained to use it, and are not disciplined enough to use limited electric energy.

Of course our sun's energy has no end from our perspective, but to the end user trying operate a battery car or a homeowner running his home in the off-hours, it is VERY limited. Until a simple methodology of battery use at home is developed, the grid will remain king, out of necessity. Or maybe you think that solar panels on the opposite side of the Earth will power our side at night.
I also disagree with hybrid "monstrosities". I am not a owner of hybrids but in certain situations ie big-city stop-and-go traffic they excel, and can do double duty as a conventional car, to be driven as much in a day as the driver(s) can tolerate. Gas engines are very inefficient in dense traffic, and battery cars cannot go any real distance, so hybrids bridge both roles.
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