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 LadyEssKay
Joined: 2/13/2015
Msg: 551
Paying for a datePage 23 of 74    (9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49)
Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

This just went from bad to worse.

Now I understand how some people could kill each other over 50 bucks or a pair of kicks.

Yikes.
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 552
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 12:20:25 PM

her exact response: "i assumed you were going to pay for it."


Why am I not surprised?

So much "assuming" going on with online dating, or even dating in general, by both genders, about so many aspects of it.
 Kay9876
Joined: 7/4/2012
Msg: 553
view profile
History
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 12:21:47 PM

Msg. 565: "the restaurant wants you to come in and pay your bill for the food an drink you ordered".

her exact response: "i assumed you were going to pay for it."

my exact response: "why would you think that?"

her exact response, "because all the other guys I've been out on a date with have paid and i'm old fashioned. I believe men are supposed to pay."

started to get awkward but I persevered...

my response: "this was a mutual meet and greet from online dating. each person pays for their own."

her response: " I didn't know that. I guess i'll take care of it when I go there. but I believe the man pays."

my general response was that that was the way it USED to be. women work and share the expense now. I told her when I take out womenin their 20's and 30's that they almost insist on paying to show their independence and once again she averred to her "old Fashioned" statement of men paying. I explained that that is not how it is done tday and that in the future we would have to talk about who would pay. she didn't get upset with that but i'm sure she's rethinking the whole situation with me.

Tom, it seems you and she have different experiences with dating. Given your preference to serial date, I can see why you get away with “your way or the highway.” If you wanted a long-term relationship, there would need to be compromise and a better acceptance of each other’s perspectives.

Your comments about dating women in their 20s and 30s, all of whom are young enough to be your children and some of whom are young enough to be her children, sound like a neg. In fact, many of your posts make you sound like a man who has been following PUAs. I get it, though. A man should walk the path that gets him to the destination he desires.
 tgif111
Joined: 10/24/2014
Msg: 554
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 12:27:46 PM

Your comments about dating women in their 20s and 30s, all of whom are young enough to be your children and some of whom are young enough to be her children, sound like a neg.


almost anything can be deemed a negative depending on the spin you want to put on it.

women of all ages seem to enjoy dating me and I them. THERE'S NOTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT BEING WITH SOMEONE WHO IS POSITVE AND FUN TO BE WITH.


why doesn't anyone , ANYONE AT ALL comment about the women IN THEIR 70'S THAT I TAKE OUT???WHY???
 LadyEssKay
Joined: 2/13/2015
Msg: 555
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 12:33:23 PM

why doesn't anyone , ANYONE AT ALL comment about the women IN THEIR 70'S THAT I TAKE OUT???WHY???


Oh hey!! It's great that you take out women in their 70s.

(To be honest, I'm still sat in my chair oh dearing over this fiasco....)
 Kay9876
Joined: 7/4/2012
Msg: 556
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History
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 12:43:39 PM

Msg: 575 (Quoting me): Your comments about dating women in their 20s and 30s, all of whom are young enough to be your children and some of whom are young enough to be her children, sound like a neg.

(Your comment): almost anything can be deemed a negative depending on the spin you want to put on it. ... why doesn't anyone , ANYONE AT ALL comment about the women IN THEIR 70'S THAT I TAKE OUT???WHY???

To clarify, I wasn't making a comment about the age of the women you date. My point was that you mentioned it to a 46-year-old. From her perspective, it could have sounded like you were rubbing in her face the fact that you date women a lot younger than her (some of them young enough to be her children). Making matters worse, you insinuated that they know how to date better than she does. They do it "how it's done today."
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 557
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History
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 12:59:56 PM

If you wanted a long-term relationship, there would need to be compromise and a better acceptance of each other’s perspectives.

you're putting the cart before the horse. the dynamics of long-term relationship do not apply to early courtship, where the goal is mutual exploration, not mutual maintenance of the relationship. compromise in relationship happens after trust and bond are established, where mutual knowledge gives confidence that sacrifices made for the sake of compromise will be rewarded. with a bare acquaintance like someone met on a first meet, there is no trust and bond, no confidence in mutuality.

you suggest tom is unreasonably stubborn for adhering to his policy. if she continues to adhere to her policy that first dates should be a free ride, will she too be unreasonable? or is the onus of compromise only on men?
 Kay9876
Joined: 7/4/2012
Msg: 558
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History
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 1:20:20 PM

Msg. 578 (Quoting me): If you wanted a long-term relationship, there would need to be compromise and a better acceptance of each other’s perspectives.

(Your comment): you're putting the cart before the horse. the dynamics of long-term relationship do not apply to early courtship, where the goal is mutual exploration, not mutual maintenance of the relationship. compromise in relationship happens after trust and bond are established, where mutual knowledge gives confidence that sacrifices made for the sake of compromise will be rewarded. with a bare acquaintance like someone met on a first meet, there is no trust and bond, no confidence in mutuality.

you suggest tom is unreasonably stubborn for adhering to his policy. if she continues to adhere to her policy that first dates should be a free ride, will she too be unreasonable? or is the onus of compromise only on men?

A person looking for a long-term relationship should start the relationship the way he/she hopes it will continue. Relationships deepen over time, but from the beginning, it's necessary to try to consider each other's perspectives.

Note that I'm not saying who should pay. I'm saying that Tom has taken a hard stance. If things were different and he was hoping for a long-term relationship with the 46-year-old, it would serve him well to look for a place of commonality with her. If there is no commonality, then it would help to try to find acceptance of each other’s perspectives. If that isn’t possible, the couple isn’t compatible.
 tgif111
Joined: 10/24/2014
Msg: 559
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 1:58:39 PM
Kay msg 574
Tom, it seems you and she have different experiences with dating. Given your preference to serial date, I can see why you get away with “your way or the highway.”
*********************************************************************************************************************

my way or the highway? I believe I made it clear that my way was 50% of the highway. we alternate in who pays or we pay half and half.

my way or the highway is the woman paying for everything.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Kay again:
To clarify, I wasn't making a comment about the age of the women you date. My point was that you mentioned it to a 46-year-old. From her perspective, it could have sounded like you were rubbing in her face the fact that you date women a lot younger than her (some of them young enough to be her children). Making matters worse, you insinuated that they know how to date better than she does. They do it "how it's done today."
**********************************************************************************************************************


I see it as "educating and enlightening " her on what is happening today. if every man she ever goes out with from here on in pays for her that's HIS prerogative. I HAVE CHOICES AND OPTIONS. she should know that she is NOT my only date. she's coming off as a privileged Diva Princess.
as a matter of fact if I may be so blunt the younger they are the more they are apt to invite you into their beds! and since i'm not yet on long term and just here for dating why wouldn't I accept? there was this 22 yr old who took me to her dad's camper at Lake Erie and............
oh, nevermind.

this 46 year old woman should be told that there are other ways of thinking. I know I said in a previous post that I wasn't going to go out with her again but she seemed agreeable to another after I MAN-SPLAINED the 2015 suggestions for modern dating.

our next conversation should be just as interesting when I ask her to agree to split expenses or take turns paying.

if she refuses to shell out the dough THEN WHO IS THE CHEAPSKATE ETERNITYBOREME???
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

from Kay again msg 579:
I'm saying that Tom has taken a hard stance.
***********************************************************************************

how so Kay?

BTW ---- WE HAD ONLY EMAILED FOR 2 DAYS AND THE THIRD WE TALKED ON THE PHONE.
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 560
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History
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 2:16:21 PM

If things were different and he was hoping for a long-term relationship with the 46-year-old,

again, you're introducing ideas that are irrelevant to these circumstances. an emotionally stable person is not going to hope for a relationship with someone they're meeting for the first time.

the only way things would be different is if they had logged enough time together to bond and determine compatibility. in which case, early boundaries like this one would have long since been accepted, meaning compromise on this issue would have long since been rendered moot.


A person looking for a long-term relationship should start the relationship the way he/she hopes it will continue.

what about boundaries? an emotionally healthy person looking for long term is going to set them, and expect the other person to set them too. a person who waffles early on just to avoid alienating the other isn't doing him or her any favors.
 LadyEssKay
Joined: 2/13/2015
Msg: 561
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 2:16:56 PM

I know I said in a previous post that I wasn't going to go out with her again but she seemed agreeable to another after I MAN-SPLAINED the 2015 suggestions for modern dating.


I assumed that you weren't the type of fist pumping, chest pounding, I rule the world because I have testicles, type of guy. My bad.

Carry on....
 Behind-Blue-Eyes_53
Joined: 12/19/2011
Msg: 562
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 2:55:48 PM
If I had been on the M&G that Tom posted about, I think I would have probably paid for the Ladies' 1st drink when it was brought..... After We finished our 1st drinks, I may have waited to see if She offered to pick up the 2nd round...

Still, in My experience, the Bartender would have asked if I/Her/We wanted to Open a Tab, when (S)He, brought the Lady Her 1st drink......
 Halcyon_Skies
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 563
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 6:28:06 PM

this 46 year old woman should be told that there are other ways of thinking. I know I said in a previous post that I wasn't going to go out with her again but she seemed agreeable to another after I MAN-SPLAINED the 2015 suggestions for modern dating.


You're not obligated to pay for her tab---however, the time to "MAN-SPLAIN" things to her was before the fact, not after. When she told you she hadn't eaten, and asked you if you would mind if she ate something, that was your opening to speak up and let the chips fall where they may:

"I'm not hungry, but I don't mind if you buy yourself something to eat. Since this is only a meet and greet, not a date, we'll each pick up our own tab."
 rockin-trucker82
Joined: 1/4/2014
Msg: 564
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 7:41:32 PM

"I'm not hungry, but I don't mind if you buy yourself something to eat. Since this is only a meet and greet, not a date, we'll each pick up our own tab."


Why does that even need to be explained? What does any stranger owe to another stranger? A lot of women need to understand that the guy isn't necessarily going to pay for them.

Now, I'll agree, if you take your GIRLFRIEND out and force her to pay her bill, you're a jerk. But someone you don't know? Why isn't just expected that both people pay their own way in that situation? There's this huge sense of entitlement when it comes to going out somewhere with someone for the first time. And where do you draw the line? If I invite my friend and his girlfriend to come have a drink, do I have to cover their tab? Because, hey, I invited them. If you agree on no, then why should I pay for someone who's less a part of my life than my friend is?

People need to remember that you're not on a first date with your boyfriend or girlfried that you've been with for the last 5 years... You're on a first date with someone that this is your first date. The word "first" is kind of a hint at that. Nobody owes each other anything. Pay your way. If he offers to pay for you, be grateful and appreciate it. Have the words "thank" and "you" somehow come out of your mouth. A lot of guys will pay 100% for that first date. The problem is the expectation that they do it... The answer of if the guy pays for the whole date or if you split the bill is that it's the guy's choice. He has no obligation to some girl he only just met.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 565
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 8:13:27 PM

Well someone has to offer. It's not like you talk to someone and then you both serendipitously show up at the same place at the same time knowing psychically that the other person will be there.

Ahh... Not so fast. No, someone does not have to offer to take someone out, is my point. Nor do they have to Ask to be able to go out with them. They can suggest it. They can say it -- "Hey, on Saturday I'm going out of town for [such and such]. Wanna grab a drink on Friday?" If a gal says that to a guy -- and yes, that is common -- does that mean she is Taking him out, thus paying his way? Heck no. Otherwise threads like this would hardly exist! Women wouldn't raise an eyebrow if a guy (gasp) split the bill on a run-of-the-mill outing with her, either. :) Take that example quote I have there -- a friend says that to another friend too. Many times people throw out get-together ideas in the same tone. When a gal does it "Oh no buddy -- she's not asking you out. She's suggesting it." When a guy says that example I gave, "Yah - you asked to take her out." I'm making fun of false-human interpretations when the exact same approach is used on both ends. :)

That's the issue in a nutshell.

Yep. A guy can take a woman's fake offer to pay roughly half the bill (give or take) -- and 7 out of 10 times, she'll have at least some interest lost. Probably a third of the time "See ya!" in her mind, and that's just a conservative estimate. Which is why it's best to bring up the topic Outside of one's dating arena. :)

but the real crux of it is that he does [pay the whole thing w/o making an issue] to ensure at least as much as he can, that the woman who he has interest in, also has interest in him. Isn't that a "hidden agenda" as well?

No, it's more of a defense, not an offense. He does that as to not offend or ruin things. It's March Madness. Say Bob's learned Not to go on about the NCAA tourney on his dates this time of year (boy has he learned!) with his prim & proper dates. He's not doing it as some "hidden agenda". He's doing it to ensure that he doesn't lose a gal's interest. So he's not going to try and split the bill. Only a small % shot it will do no harm. Instead, typical Bob will pay the whole thing, where it pretty much does not do any good -- just ensures stability. Typical Bob's not paying for dinners for every Sally he goes out with as some "bonus points" that will get him somewhere. It's more like a (usually; to play it safe) a necessary ingredient as part of the process to garner her interest.

In a sense, he's trying to buy her affection

No, not by default, just because he's picking up the bill -- no. I've gone out on dates who, after things went along that I realized I wasn't into, but I picked up the tab. I don't find these processes fair -- but then again, it's a small world and word gets around (especially on dates at places where I will be a semi-frequenter or more of). That's just one type of situation.

So really, it's not women who are forcing and pressuring men to pay all the time, the men put that pressure on themselves.

Some do -- yes. But here's just a cultural fact: A high % of women are going to lose at least some interest in common dating situations when the guy aims to split the bill, or motions for her to pay since he paid the previous one. The "pressure" -- or better put as background frustration when one goes out on several dates that didn't pan out -- is that by default, it's "assumed" by many (no, not all -- but more than enough to not take risks) that the guy is "supposed to pay". Even if he didn't ask to Take her out. The closer it is to Asking to Take her out, the more frazzled she'll (understandably in this culture) be.

she said she still wanted to go out with me and the conversation ended sort of mildly awkward in that I said I would think about it. she said "OK sweety. let me know." then goodbye.

See dude? She Didn't Ditch You! It's So Assumed that the guy pays -- even if it's a lopsided ordering (she got a meal along with her drinks on a drink date) -- that she can leave and all that before the check, etc -- as if you Owed her. But that is what it is -- the mindset that the guy Owes You. Now, if you asked to Take Her Out -- you DO owe her... but I can understand the frustration if you said just drinks. I'd at least Want to let her know that you can't pick and choose "old fashioned" to your own vagenda. Of course, that will definitely make her lose interest if you want her to be a true dating prospect.

she's working too. she makes money. she may even make more than I do as i'm retired.

I DID NOT INVITE HER OUT ON A DATE. she picked the meeting place.

Good point. Especially when one wants to use the "old fashioned" excuse. It's picking and choosing one's old-fashioned "values" -- meaning what's valuable to themselves. But honestly, she most likely had No bad intentions At All about you. She just (mindlessly) hasn't given it any thought. "It's just the way things roll", she thinks -- without even really thinking about it. It's like you saying "What's up with you wearing a red & white blouse? It's Thursday...". :) Some people are just conditioned that the guy pays their way, even without him inviting her out -- all while she's a career working, independent woman. One of the fallacies of human culture, unfortunately. :)

BUT, you should be aware of it and get too worked up over it. It's not a rarity. Just use arenas like the forums to bash it, etc. Or talk about it with a solidified Girlfriend when it comes to boy vs girl talk (never a gal you're merely dating). :)
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 566
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 8:47:24 PM
You are not compatible. If she wanted you to pay and you didn't or won't, it will only build up resentment. Move along.
 tgif111
Joined: 10/24/2014
Msg: 567
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 9:02:05 PM
from Halcyon Skies:


"I'm not hungry, but I don't mind if you buy yourself something to eat. Since this is only a meet and greet, not a date, we'll each pick up our own tab."


i'm very glad you told me that. I wasn't exactly sure what language to use as I can be rough around the edges.

also I look at these get togethers for the first time as a meet and greet, not a date.

I've had so many dates in my life that I believe I just got used to ASSUMING that this woman knew the ropes.
I take responsibility from now on to let the woman know that it's dutch.

this woman also ASSUMED that because ALL the men before me had paid that I would foot the bill as well.
princess diva glamor girls have that kind of attitude of expectation. plus she has a masters degree and is almost done with her PhD. this MAY (or may not) give her a sense of privilege and empowerment to be this highly educated. but probably more than any thing she's quite the stunning woman that turns men's heads with long flowing black hair. most men would also find it difficult to look up and into her eyes as she's quite scenic in the front.

it should be VERY interesting to hear what she has to say when we discuss her paying every once in while and not just me every single time.
 browneyesseeking
Joined: 1/12/2013
Msg: 568
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 9:02:39 PM
Who pays always seems like such a contentious issue. I always go to a first meet expecting to pay for my share. If I have suggested the date, I try to pick up the whole tab. It seems extremely presumptuous to assume that someone else will pay for you.... And dinner at that!! In my opinion, that is showing extremely poor manners. I am a mom with young children and there have been ocassions where I have had to quickly leave, but I have always left money to cover my share. It a man pays for me on a first meet, it is appreciated, but never expected.

The one and only time I was a bit annoyed that the man did not offer to pay for my $2 tea was when I had driven 30 minutes for the first meet and he had walked 5 minutes from his home. To add to it, there were 2 Starbucks in the mall where we met so I sat at the wrong one for 20 minutes, before figuring it out. He was very familiar with the mall and should have been clearer about the meeting place. I never eat on a first meet. In fact, a few times the man I was meeting ordered food and I simply sipped on my tea. If a man pays for me on the first meet, I always make the point of telling them that I will pay the next time.
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 569
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 9:13:34 PM
I've said before, and still stand by this...

If profiles are still up after 2, maybe 3 dates, we can window shop in Holland.

Easy peasy.
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 570
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 9:17:05 PM

What does any stranger owe to another stranger?


Interesting point.

Since the prevailing attitude on these forums seems to be that "nobody owes anybody anything" whenever men bemoan their lack of responses.
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 571
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History
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 9:22:41 PM

You're not obligated to pay for her tab---however, the time to "MAN-SPLAIN" things to her was before the fact, not after. When she told you she hadn't eaten, and asked you if you would mind if she ate something, that was your opening to speak up and let the chips fall where they may:


I actually kind of agree with you and I stated that his 'ok' might have set him up for paying..BUT the way she asked him was done in a way that a 'ok' would most likely be given. I have never had it phrased like that.

I would hear "are you hungry?" ..I say NO..then she keeps quiet or she says "I am ordering something"..so I am off the hook. Or some version of this.

TGIF date basically asked him the = as "can I go to the bathroom? do you mind?"...lol...Who would say NO. By reflex we are all going to say "ok". Not saying it was intentionally done that way..but it is hard to say NO. And saying yes doesn't mean he agreed to pay.

In the future these kind of mishaps can be avoided by choosing places that go along with his ideals. Cozy cafes that at best have only some dessert. Also always let them know you ate already.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 572
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 9:22:53 PM


"I'm not hungry, but I don't mind if you buy yourself something to eat. Since this is only a meet and greet, not a date, we'll each pick up our own tab."
i'm very glad you told me that. I wasn't exactly sure what language to use as I can be rough around the edges.

I think that is a bit rough around the edges, though -- date-culturally speaking. For an outing of a couple drinks, and things hit it off like they were -- I would say pay for her drinks. But if turned into her being hungry, I'd modify Halcyon's quote as: "I'm not hungry as I had this aimed for a drink date... but if you want to buy yourself something to eat, go right ahead, I won't mind." Kinda woven in the "buy yourself" on the eating part.

The date can unfold in many different ways. But basically you can end up splitting the heavier part of the bill ("Put her drinks on mine").

I'll say this though: If you guys were kissing during the date itself -- if you brought it up early on -- I doubt you guys would have been kissing at all. It would have "ruined" the date to an outdated--err, old-fashioned mindset. ;)

IMO, I'd wait until the end of the date to decide to split/pay. Since things went really well, I would have bit the bullet on it. Due to her taking things for granted mentality of just leaving like that & ordering food -- having that mentality, along with hitting it off, I myself would seriously consider bringing up the subject on a 2nd or 3rd date if things continued, since she's a working independent woman (in a nice way; in the context of the dating world as a whole in conversation).
 Halcyon_Skies
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 573
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 9:25:29 PM

Why does that even need to be explained? What does any stranger owe to another stranger? A lot of women need to understand that the guy isn't necessarily going to pay for them.


tgif111 is in his sixties---hence, he's from a generation where it was customary for the man to pay. Although the woman is quite a bit younger than he is, she might be accustomed to dating other older men, who have no issue with paying. He should have taken that into account.

While it's true that dating customs are changing with the younger generation, it's clear that not all daters across the board are so quick in embracing the changes. It's short-sighted to expect that everyone is going to agree with the concept of going Dutch. That's why early communication is necessary. If one wants to go Dutch, fine, but one needs to make that clear to his/her dating prospect long before the check arrives.


People need to remember that you're not on a first date with your boyfriend or girlfried that you've been with for the last 5 years... You're on a first date with someone that this is your first date. The word "first" is kind of a hint at that. Nobody owes each other anything. Pay your way. If he offers to pay for you, be grateful and appreciate it.


I'm not agreeing with the woman at all. I think she was wrong in not offering to pay her share---but he was also wrong for not informing her it was Dutch Treat before she left the establishment.
 Seki1949
Joined: 9/4/2013
Msg: 574
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History
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 10:14:42 PM
Am I the only one that has noticed that the story has been slowly changing with additional details from the current OP?

I don't date that much but I always expect to pay for the first meet and greet. I make the offer and suggest that she can leave the tip or pay the next time. Usually this is accepted (even if there is going to no second date). If the lady really wants to go 50-50 or pay her own way, I'm good.

I never kiss on a first meet and greet but I will hold hands if offered ; if there seems to be some chance of chemistry I will go for a hug at the end of the date. 'Spooning' on a first date is a disturbing to me. "Sex on the Third Date' strikes me as awfully quick also, but has happened. Left to my own devices, I like to get to know the other person before I get naked.

I would never stiff the restaurant or the venue even if I was stiffed by the other party.

PS: I'm no Saint; Regulation Issue Feet of Clay here.
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 575
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History
Paying for a date
Posted: 3/29/2015 11:16:37 PM

I think that is a bit rough around the edges, though -- date-culturally speaking.

this is straying a bit from the subject, but there's something to be said for showing such 'rough edges' early - you get to explore compatibility, find out what the other person is comfortable with.

i tend to be direct and unadorned, since i just don't speak the language of subtlety, and when my gf showed ease with that style early on, it was as big a jolt of joyous promise as i've ever felt.
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