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 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 1376
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Getting Past 'OK' is not an entitlementPage 56 of 73    (33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73)

My point is it's generally the women dictate what they expect, and men should follow the woman's lead in the matter.

But the fun part about blind internet dates is that there is NO dictation for general needs and such beforehand. It's set up with a bare minimum of text messages, and that's about it. Women DON'T lead. They passively wait for the guy to make moves, and criticize silently in a lot of cases. Even nonverbal actions are disguised. This paralyzing fear of revealing too much, showing their 'hand' or whatever - means a lot of these early encounters are random, dumb luck - like blindly groping in a dark room.


I think this whole discussion must be part of the "participation trophy" culture that I don't really understand, but that's fine. Applied to dating, it says that every man should get a participation trophy, not matter how he looks, how much money he has, how his personality is, he deserves equal consideration from the women out there. In other words to be rewarded for trying, not winning.

You can swap 'women' for 'men' in every place in this statement and it wouldn't be any less true.
The effort women put forth to make themselves beautiful and presentable and attractive - who dictates THAT work ethic? It sure as hell isn't the ordinary Joe looking for a date. It's peer pressure - from friends, magazines, Dr. Oz - and basically anyone who stands to profit from purchasing those shoes, makeup, or gym membership. Investing more time, money, and energy in that physical appearance makes a boatload of women feel superior, entitled - but it doesn't make an ugly soul any less ugly.


I mean, doesn't a really, really hot woman have the same power over a guy who's maybe a bit under his league, or vice versa?

Telling bit of text - using 'hot' to explain why others don't need to be given a chance. Sure - the Beautiful people have an advantage - but YOU are not 'hot' in the general total of the population. You are 'Average', just like MOST people - and people - especially women - absolutely cannot stand being told that - because we've been brainwashed from a very early age that we can do 'better' - be 'better' - find 'better' - but are never really told HOW to do it, or given a reasonable mindset from where to start that 'better' journey. A lot of women see themselves as 'hot' - but that never means a guy HAS to agree with them - or ever will. The Fair Market Value of a person is determined by the market, not by a bestie or someone selling them a drink.
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 1377
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Men choose, women decide what's acceptable
Posted: 6/7/2018 10:54:38 AM
Men have the power of choosing. Women have the power over what they find acceptable.

Do outward appearances make someone a better person, of course not. Does it give you certain entitlements, it certainly does. Don't attractive men try to date the most attractive women? Are they entitled, I guess so. That's life.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 1378
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Men choose, women decide what's acceptable
Posted: 6/7/2018 11:26:12 AM
Dan wrote:
But the fun part about blind internet dates is that there is NO dictation for general needs and such beforehand. It's set up with a bare minimum of text messages, and that's about it. Women DON'T lead. They passively wait for the guy to make moves, and criticize silently in a lot of cases.
But don't women do the choosing when they're messaging you online, or responding to your initial message? They're passively dictating what they want. The accept or reject. From what I read here, women are bombarded with messages, men get relatively few. To me, that imbalance says that women have the luxury of choice, sifting through the mens' messages. It may be a passive dictation, but it's dictation. I do understand with younger folks, women are more likely to be more aggressive.


means a lot of these early encounters are random, dumb luck - like blindly groping in a dark room.
Dumb luck or not, I do like the idea of "blindly groping in a dark room."


You can swap 'women' for 'men' in every place in this statement and it wouldn't be any less true.
The effort women put forth to make themselves beautiful and presentable and attractive - who dictates THAT work ethic? It sure as hell isn't the ordinary Joe looking for a date. It's peer pressure - from friends, magazines, Dr. Oz - and basically anyone who stands to profit from purchasing those shoes, makeup, or gym membership. Investing more time, money, and energy in that physical appearance makes a boatload of women feel superior, entitled - but it doesn't make an ugly soul any less ugly.
I don't disagree with any of this, but in the context of this conversation, someone is suggesting that women unfairly wield their power over men by expecting that men pay. My point is that there are other points of power, such as looks, besides money, and should all those other factors be treated as money, i.e., eliminated from the "power" consideration for a date to be on more equal footing?. Where women must consider all bald men, or all men with skullets also, just to be fair?


Telling bit of text - using 'hot' to explain why others don't need to be given a chance.
Sure. I believe what I wrote. You can't dictate "hot" to a prospective dater. So do you think women should see to it at the bottom of their hearts to date average men if they don't want to? Should there be q quota? "OK, I'm done with my quote of average man dates this month.....now to the hotties!!! Now we gonna pitch a b*tch!!!" No.


but YOU are not 'hot' in the general total of the population. You are 'Average', just like MOST people
It's all relative vs the person you're trying to snag, really.


- and people - especially women - absolutely cannot stand being told that -
I would not know, because I have never told a woman she's "average." I can imagine over a candlelight dinner...."Oh honey, you're so ...average...based on the standard deviation of the normal global population of all women in your age range." Even if it may be true.....um...doubt those particular romantic musings would find their way into her heart.


A lot of women see themselves as 'hot' - but that never means a guy HAS to agree with them - or ever will. The Fair Market Value of a person is determined by the market, not by a bestie or someone selling them a drink.
Sure I do agree with this. It IS a market. "Hot" is a relative term.

After all this, I am not sure where we are agreeing or disagreeing here Dan.
 reverendswine
Joined: 4/14/2018
Msg: 1379
Men choose, women decide what's acceptable
Posted: 6/7/2018 12:12:59 PM

My point is it's generally the women dictate what they expect, and men should follow the woman's lead in the matter.


Oh, boy. I don't care how sexist this sounds, but I don't follow a woman's lead on anything pertaining to dating. I wouldn't feel like a man if I did. If/when I reach a point where I feel like I need or have to, I'll pull myself out of the dating world. They can keep their sex.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 1/17/2018
Msg: 1380
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Men choose, women decide what's acceptable
Posted: 6/7/2018 12:24:19 PM
Does that mean women can't choose?
I don't get this whole business.
No wonder there are so many single
people about, we're too busy making
things complicated and a contest all
about prizes and punishment.
 reverendswine
Joined: 4/14/2018
Msg: 1381
Men choose, women decide what's acceptable
Posted: 6/7/2018 1:02:52 PM

Does that mean women can't choose?


Nah, not at all. They can choose to turn me away when I make it clear I'm not having outdated concepts forced on me. I'm not having any woman tell me it's "my role" to pay for a first date, just as I wouldn't tell her she belongs in the kitchen.

Circus monkeys are found in the circus, not in the pig pen.

 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 1382
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Men choose, women decide what's acceptable
Posted: 6/7/2018 1:12:26 PM

Does that mean women can't choose?

Women have always had a choice, despite some guys trying their best to dominate/remove the ability to do so.

My point in that making those choices -
1. You should CLEARLY state what you feel - AT the time it happens. Say it, or write it out. Plain English. "Well, you know," is not an answer. You live on the same planet, and work to have the same interests - but you're still FROM different worlds. People who know you are ahead on the learning curve - don't expect someone new to immediately catch up, or do better. Crappy communication is what leads to a lot of crappy encounters.
2. Realize your value - in the eyes of others. Far too many act like wasting THEIR time is all that matters, what THEY want is what should happen, etc... Relationships are always a balance of give-and-take, even the first time you meet. No matter how cheap the date, your time - and theirs - is equally as valuable - because neither of you knows how much of it you have left. Bad connection or good - respect people for giving you their time, and respectful people will do the same in return.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 1383
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Men choose, women decide what's acceptable
Posted: 6/7/2018 1:16:44 PM
Reverend wrote:
Oh, boy. I don't care how sexist this sounds, but I don't follow a woman's lead on anything pertaining to dating. I wouldn't feel like a man if I did. If/when I reach a point where I feel like I need or have to, I'll pull myself out of the dating world. They can keep their sex.
And that works for you...and good on you that it does. You're probably one of the relatively few men who can call their own shots. It does take a certain panache or "Who TF cares" attitude with women to turn the tables i.e., have them want to chase you. And a "Who TF cares" attitude can be afforded if women want what you offer. I would say only a small minority of men can pull this approach off, though. Most that try this will fail, i.e, be a good customer of either the local Madame or be on the frequent buyer list at the closest "Blowup dolls 'R Us" store.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 1384
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The sea hath fish
Posted: 6/7/2018 4:11:26 PM

and men should follow the woman's lead in the matter

Nope. They should work together.

doesn't a really, really hot woman have the same power over a guy who's maybe a bit under his league, or vice versa? So then ugly men should be mad at women for wielding a looks disparity over their head? Or not getting the same consideration from a hottie, as a good looking man gets?

Nope. For many of us, there are no leagues. I don't care how hot you are or how ugly the other is...if this is the way that you think, it will show and you'll lose points immediately because of it. No matter how hot you are or how ugly the other is...if the difference isn't so great and you're still going to date...you still have to demonstrate what kind of person you are and be judged by that.
 BLONDE_ANGEL_1
Joined: 4/27/2018
Msg: 1385
It's Economics
Posted: 6/7/2018 4:16:22 PM
Some men have a higher income or more discretionary income than others, they can afford to spend $ on a regular basis & it affords them more choices in the women they can date.

The men who are lower on the financial rung cannot AFFORD to date like the others do, so they are relegated to scooping up what the higher paid men have rejected.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 1386
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A League is three miles: not an economic class
Posted: 6/7/2018 5:43:04 PM

Nope. For many of us, there are no leagues.

Just echoing this sentiment.

Failing to approach uber-attractive people doesn't always come from cowardice. Experience tells many that fighting thru a bunch of drunk riff-raff or trying to sweet talk that pretentious resting b*tch face isn't worth the effort, no matter how high or exclusive they may hold their attention on a pedestal. Trophy hunting is for people who want to put a trophy on a shelf, a notch on their bedpost - not interact with them every day as an equal. Treasuring the company of someone is not about a lust for treasure - it's about finding value in each other - and a lot of that value cannot be bought at any price. Putting a heavy price tag on yourself doesn't mean anyone is going to buy with an honest purchase.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 1387
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/7/2018 6:46:53 PM

The men who are lower on the financial rung cannot AFFORD to date like the others do, so they are relegated to scooping up what the higher paid men have rejected.


**Sigh** once again....you have demeaned women into a product available to the highest bidder....

A real woman doesn't pick a man based on his income and ability to buy her affections....
a real woman will appreciate a creative date that isn't based on how much he can spend....
a real woman will understand how expensive "life" is and show a man she is willing to invest in "their" relationship as well....
 Endless_Summer_Nights
Joined: 2/2/2015
Msg: 1388
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/7/2018 7:32:47 PM
I'd say one of my better dates wasn't really that expensive. I picked up a bottle of wine and cooked dinner at home. I used small candles and rose petals to make a pathway across the bathroom to the hot tub. They also circled it. More rose petals on the bedroom floor and on the bed. There were dozen roses on the headboard.. She got to look at them while she got a massage and um... other things. If I had to guess how much I spent on this I'd say less than $100. More memorable than dinner out. And no, it wasn't a first or second date :)
 BLONDE_ANGEL_1
Joined: 4/27/2018
Msg: 1389
It's Economics
Posted: 6/7/2018 8:42:21 PM

**Sigh** once again....you have demeaned women into a product available to the highest bidder....

A real woman doesn't pick a man based on his income and ability to buy her affections....
a real woman will appreciate a creative date that isn't based on how much he can spend....
a real woman will understand how expensive "life" is and show a man she is willing to invest in "their" relationship as well..


Quoting a male from another thread:


https://forums.plentyoffish.com/16703503datingPostpage6.aspx

ohenryx

Msg: 126

Women are the prize. Men compete for the prize. It is what it is.


Just because a person has a different idea or experience than another, does not make them less of a "real woman"

I did not state women go to the highest bidder, that is your assumption.

Just because some man has $ doesn't mean any woman will want him, but all people have some standards of what they want in a mate, whether it is a talent, a look, a lifestyle, etc. & it is their right to want what they want & not be demeaned for it.

My statement was a man w/ more $ will have more choices than a man w/ no $ or less $ - I never said it's the only thing a woman looks for or that she doesn't reciprocate the male's generosity. Just like looks are not the only thing men go for, he would want certain characteristics to go along w/ the appearance.

An emotionally healthy woman (?real woman?) will want to be around people who give as well as take, she will not allow herself to be the free bed & breakfast. She will have healthy boundaries. Same goes for men. He won't put up w/ bad behavior from a woman just because she is attractive, if he is emotionally healthy.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 1390
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/7/2018 10:09:41 PM
men can buy sex, co-operation and acquiescence but thankfully no one can buy love.... naturally women prefer a man who has a good income and is successful. No virtue in being poor. These days men also prefer a woman who can pull her weight financially unless he is into control and being superior.
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 1391
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/7/2018 10:33:01 PM
When I lived in NY, men I dated made good salaries, and were into trying out new trendy restaurants, clubs and places for drinks. It wasn't about wining and dining women, but experiencing the nicer things in life with their date. I've never seen all the problems with not wanting to experience life until I got on POF forums.
 RoxyMoronic
Joined: 6/7/2016
Msg: 1392
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/7/2018 11:39:27 PM
^^^Im going to think of you as spaghetti junction, as you are capable of as many twists and turns.

Experience life on someone else’s buck? Nice.
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 1393
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/8/2018 1:16:53 AM
It is pretty nice. I date nice men.
 BLONDE_ANGEL_1
Joined: 4/27/2018
Msg: 1394
It's Economics
Posted: 6/8/2018 3:06:32 AM

naturally women prefer a man who has a good income and is successful. No virtue in being poor. These days men also prefer a woman who can pull her weight financially


^This-

why is it Ok (per some forum posters) for the man to get it all from a woman, but she must not expect a thing?

It's SEXIST IMO.
 flowersinthelake
Joined: 5/11/2018
Msg: 1395
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/8/2018 5:46:26 AM

why is it Ok (per some forum posters) for the man to get it all from a woman, but she must not expect a thing?


People who lack self-worth and self-respect will sell themselves to the lowest bidder for that reinforcement of just how unworthy they feel they are (when it isn't true) are to meet quality people. Negativity begets negativity. They will give it their all to people who don't deserve it and then take it out on more secure, self-respecting women who won't.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 1396
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/8/2018 6:53:47 AM
Not one person has said we aren't "expecting a thing" from a man....
what we are saying is it is a 2 way street and we don't expect it to be the man is the only one to contribute financially...

and once again....wtf is the "selling themselves" thing???

and the fact a woman feels quality equates to money....shows more about their "self worth" than a woman that offers to contribute to the dating process.
 cooldog65
Joined: 6/27/2011
Msg: 1397
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/8/2018 7:10:11 AM
This all sounds like an ebay auction...
 feirene
Joined: 1/3/2017
Msg: 1398
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/8/2018 7:53:15 AM
Decided i'm gonna skip the dating and just ask for money for sex instead.
 whiterose0
Joined: 2/3/2009
Msg: 1399
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Both men and women choose
Posted: 6/8/2018 8:06:31 AM

Not one person has said we aren't "expecting a thing" from a man....
what we are saying is it is a 2 way street and we don't expect it to be the man is the only one to contribute financially...

and once again....wtf is the "selling themselves" thing???

and the fact a woman feels quality equates to money....shows more about their "self worth" than a woman that offers to contribute to the dating process.


I agree with MsMicki. Women with high self-worth don't equate quality or respect to money, and don't expect men to subsidize them.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 1400
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It's Economics
Posted: 6/8/2018 11:28:07 AM

Decided i'm gonna skip the dating and just ask for money for sex instead.


Don't forget the obligated ambiance!!
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