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Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 201
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.Page 9 of 58    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)

HFX, the man was TACKLED in the store, he did absolutely NOTHING. I asked the question if it was about race because the man was black and he is walking in the store, doing what you would be doing in the store, WALKING.

You did not ask a question about race, you implied that I was making about his race.

Of course you didn't bring up the possibility of a race issue with this white thug, because it doesn't fit your reasoning.

And you did not bring up the fact that it was one guy mounted on top of the other guy because you kinda got turned on by it?

The problem is a human being is walking and he gets attacked. He is living in a state where what he is doing and what he is carrying is legal.

That is my point, as it shows just how dangerous people walking around carrying guns can be, as there are crazy people out there who will do crazy sh*t.

If you had been paying attention to why I posted it and the reasons behind it and not on some derp hunt for what you think you may have seen that and saved yourself the embarrassment.

To make an excuse for this white thug is ridiculous and that is what you did. Wonder why you didn't defend this man who was attacked?

Where the f*ck did I defend him?

Interesting to say the least. You said "Are you really that stupid", I don't think you should be looking in the mirror while you state your feelings, it doesn't reinforce positive thinking.

Irony noted.
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 202
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/23/2015 5:35:55 PM

Of course you didn't bring up the possibility of a race issue with this white thug, because it doesn't fit your reasoning. article cite the man as a white vigilante attempting to do his civic duty bring down an old black guy with a concealed weapon...I wonder what would have happened if the black guy, fearing for his life, shot his attacker?
Joined: 11/28/2014
Msg: 203
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/23/2015 6:02:55 PM
"I wonder what would have happened if the black guy, fearing for his life, shot his attacker?"

^^^^^^Seeing the facts, the black man would have been justified. The white guy doing his civic duty? Hardly a civic duty now wasn't it after seeing the facts?
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 204
view profile
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 1:45:05 AM

LyingCheat...for the examples you gave about lawnmowers, automobiles, and even lawn darts...I concur that if any of them are used in a criminal manner, the PERSON doing the crime should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

You miss, or perhaps avoid, the point. You inserted the bumper-sticker slogan "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" into the thread, so I pointed out that "Lawnmowers don't mow lawns, people do" since you seem unaware of the role the tools play in the performance of any particular activity. It follows that large numbers of people in possession of high capacity lawnmowers will have the capability to mow down a lot of grass in a relatively short time. Which is no big deal, and may even be desirable, but that same logic throws up an alarming possibility when the tool being discussed is a lethal one. It's even more alarming, or should be, when we discover that very sophisticated large capacity lethal tools are already in the possession of very large numbers of people, because the implication is that these tools - just like the lawnmowers - will be used. In one way or another.

Does that implication turn out, in fact, to be the case? Well, yes. The US is a world leader, by a big margin, amongst the developed nations for the numbers of its own citizens, including large numbers of children, who get mown down in one way or another, by that lethal tool. What a surprise hey?

You also seem to have missed the point of why I included the reference to Lawn Darts - they weren't necessarily being used criminally and I've got no idea if anyone was prosecuted for accidentally drilling a childs skull with one. The point is that an obvious danger to public safety was discovered and action was taken to restrict access to the dangerous item.
Neither the general public nor the public safety experts seemed to care that 'lawn darts don't kill people, people kill people', they just banned those fvckers anyway.

And they did it after only a few 'accidents' - three children lost their lives.

Every year 100 children aged under 14 lose their lives when they are 'accidentally' shot. They shoot themselves carelessly, they shoot each other carelessly, they are shot by their 'care-givers', carelessly.
8 out of 10 times they are shot at home, at the home of a relative, or in the family car.

The other concept to bear in mind is citizens of the United States of America have these rights guaranteed by the words written very clearly in the Constitution. That document and its contents are revered in this country.

I addressed this point in the first few sentences of the post you are replying to. You must have missed it, so here it is again - "The focus on '2nd amendment rights' is all very well, but no declaration of rights should abrogate the necessity to actually be sensible."

I only mentioned your Constitution briefly because I don't care about it, and I'm not directing my argument at anything it says. Though I can't help but notice the 'guaranteed rights' you refer to are within the context of a 'well regulated militia' or some such are they not? And well... the vast numbers of people who shoot either themselves or someone else every year in the US would tend to indicate there's a problem with the well regulated part of the militia clause.
Unless it seems normal to you that a well regulated militia would not only be incapable of storing, securing, or handling its weapons appropriately, it would also tend to resist being 'regulated' by a qualified agency. In that case I have to admit whatever distinction in meaning might be made between the phrase "well regulated militia" and the phrase "loose collection of careless oafs" escapes me.

But that said, you have the right to run your country, and "well regulated militia" [/snicker], any way you like - but you don't have the 'right' to pretend unchallenged, on a public forum, that it's sensible, rational, or even beneficial to have 200 million or so (no one knows how many) unregulated gunz circulating about, with suitable ammunition easily available in bulk, in supermarkets.
Because, well... it obviously isn't.

That final point is illustrated quite well by the outlier status of the US in murder rates and accidentally shot children rates. But perhaps you'd like to argue there is some benefit to society in creating all these pointlessly bereaved families? That it's a rational thing to do? Perhaps you can indicate why interfering in, or 'regulating', the process with the aim of reducing the toll of misery, would be an 'irrational' or 'not sensible' thing for a civilised society to do?

I doubt you'll address the substance of the above points, because you seem to be proficient at making assertions but not so big on following them up with anything resembling solid reasoning or anything that might be described as a fact.

Perhaps you could practice on something simpler? To get the juices flowing as it were?
Here's another of your attempts at discourse we can discuss.

What we have also observed is that an armed society is a polite society.

Where have you "observed" this? Do tell.

In the marketplaces of northern Pakistan perhaps?

Downtown Tikrit?

The public square in Raqqa, Syria?

These places ^^^ all fit the 'armed society' description. One might expect them all, if your slogan contained a shred of truth, to be exemplars of polite society - but they aren't.

Mind you, those places are 3rd world, culturally alien. Perhaps they don't have the same concept of the sanctity of human life?
So how about closer to home in New Orleans maybe? Ah yes, New Orleans... where so many politely armed people kill each other the (gun) murder rate is almost the equal of Honduras. Or Baltimore, which, on a per capita basis, rivals the murder rate one "observes" in Guatemala.

You're strong on sloganeering and making claims but not so strong on backing up your claims and slogans with any references to reality.

Gun Violence in U.S. Cities Compared to the Deadliest Nations in the World

The map below compares the rate of gun murders in American cities to nations around the world. Building upon Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data... Zara Matheson of the Martin Prosperity Institute compiled additional data from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime ( and other sources collated by The Guardian (

While international crime data suffer from significant reporting and comparison issues, homicide data is more reliable. As the Urban Institute's John Roman points out, it is the one type of crime that is "hard to fake" and also most likely to be reported.

The pattern is staggering. A number of U.S. cities have gun homicide rates in line with the most deadly nations in the world.

We must have very different definitions of 'polite society', because... I dunno... it seems somehow a bit deficient in politeness for members of an allegedly advanced nation to shoot and kill, whether accidentally or deliberately, so many of their fellow citizens.
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 205
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 11:46:51 AM
The claim many gun enthusiasts use is that guns are a constitutional right granted in the second amendment...further, gun enthusiasts, the NRA, and gun lobby fiercely defend any effort to impose any form of gun control or regulation.

At the same time, many of these pro-gun people, support the control and regulation of another fundamental constitutional right...that of a woman to exercise her fundamental constitutional right to an abortion.
AR15...what was the original designed purpose of the AR15?

The AR-15 was designed in 1957 at the behest of the U.S. Army, which asked Armalite to come up with a “high-velocity, full and semi auto fire, 20 shot magazine, 6lbs loaded, able to penetrate both sides of a standard Army helmet at 500 meters rifle,” according to When it entered Army service in the 1960s, it was renamed the M16, in accordance with the Army Nomenclature System. “AR-15” came to refer to the rifle’s semi-automatic civilian equivalent. From 1994 to 2004, AR-15-style rifles were subject to the now-expired Federal Assault Weapons Ban's AR15 is actually the semi-automatic version of the M16...hmmmm...

What is the max firing rate of the AR15?

The official Bushmaster XM15 manual lists the maximum effective rate of fire at 45 rounds per minute.

My neighbor, who is an avid hunter, has often stated that when deer hunting, a true hunter, makes the kill with one shot. Why one shot? First, because it is the most humane kill...second, if one shot doesn't do it, then one must follow a wounded deer through the woods to finish the animal off. The use of an AR15 in hunting is the spray and pray method of hunting. In addition, bullets fly a long way...and the ammo the AR15 uses is the NATO .223...not a great round for hunting larger game (in spite of what some of the posters here claim) as it's small caliber often passes through flesh...but, unimpeded a round passes easily through walls-house walls...hunters employing the spray and pray method of hunting put homeowners in the are at true hunter would hunt in such a manner-only rank amateurs hunt like this.

As one hunter put it in the comments section of an article on, “I served in the military and the M16A2/M4 was the weapon I used for 20 years. It is first and foremost designed as an assault weapon platform, no matter what the spin. A hunter does not need a semi-automatic rifle to hunt, if he does he sucks, and should go play video games. I see more men running around the bush all cammo'd up with assault vests and face paint with tricked out AR's. These are not hunters but wannabe weekend warriors.”

Where else is the AR15 being used?

On Dec. 24, in Webster, New York, an ex-con named William Spengler set fire to his house and then shot and killed two responding firefighters before taking his own life. He shot them with a Bushmaster AR-15-style semi-automatic rifle—the same weapon that Adam Lanza used 10 days earlier when he shot and killed 26 people at Sandy Hook Elementary. James Holmes used an AR-15-style rifle with a detachable 100-round magazine this past summer when he shot up a movie theater in Colorado. (Though the AR-15 is a specific model of rifle made by Colt, the term has come to generically refer to the many other rifles built to similar specifications.)

Three makes a trend

Adam Lanza had a 30 round magazine...James Holmes had a 100 magazine...what hunter needs a 30 or 100 round magazine? The people hunter?

Let's look at the AR15 for home protection:

In terms of repelling a home invasion—which is what most people mean when they talk about home defense—an AR-15-style rifle is probably less useful than a handgun. The AR-15 is a long gun, and can be tough to maneuver in tight quarters. When you shoot it, it’ll overpenetrate—sending bullets through the walls of your house and possibly into the walls of your neighbor’s house—unless you purchase the sort of ammunition that fragments on impact. (This is true for other guns, as well, but, again, the thing with the AR-15 is that it lets you fire more rounds faster.)

Other than helping wanna be weekend warriors look cool with tricked out AR15's what other purpose does the AR15 serve?

AR-15-style rifles are very useful, however, if what you’re trying to do is sell guns. In a recent Forbes article, Abram Brown reported that “gun ownership is at a near 20-year high, generating $4 billion in commercial gun and ammunition sales.” But that money’s not coming from selling shotguns and bolt-action rifles to pheasant hunters. In its 2011 annual report, Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation announced that bolt-action hunting rifles accounted for 6.6 percent of its net sales in 2011 (down from 2010 and 2009), while modern sporting rifles (like AR-15-style weapons) accounted for 18.2 percent of its net sales. The Freedom Group’s 2011 annual report noted that the commercial modern sporting rifle market grew at a 27 percent compound annual rate from 2007 to 2011, whereas the entire domestic long gun market only grew at a 3 percent rate.

What is the best purpose of the AR15?

But the AR-15 is very good at one thing: engaging the enemy at a rapid rate of fire. When someone like Adam Lanza uses it to take out 26 people in a matter of minutes, he’s committing a crime, but he isn’t misusing the rifle. That’s exactly what it was engineered to do.

All quotes from

The AR15 isn't a hunting's poor for home defense...perhaps ok for range practice...sure does make the man seem more effective high fire rate weapon to engage the enemy...who is the enemy?
Joined: 1/10/2015
Msg: 206
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 11:50:39 AM
likely it is very popular with the wanna-be types who like to feel macho, who never served in the armed forces but like to pretend they did, or could.

but that is part of a free society, I laws against being a wanna-be
Joined: 11/18/2014
Msg: 207
view profile
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 2:05:24 PM

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

If the gun you own or wish you did has nothing to do with belonging to a well regulated Militia securing a free State, you do NOT have the right to own it.

Wrong. In strict constitutional terms,


There have been more than a handful of challenges brought upon the Supreme Court since the early 1800s and all have been decided as the 2nd Amendment being an INDIVIDUAL , or citizens right versus a COLLECTIVE, or states right.

Concerning a "well regulated militia", the militia clause is just that - a COLLECTIVE, or state militia being ultimately formed from these ever-perpetually armed PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS/citizens IF EVER NEEDED.

UNLESS NEEDED, no militia needs to be formed, and private INDIVIDUALS/ citizens(PEOPLE) maintain the perpetual INDIVIDUAL right, and that right is " the right of the people to keep and bear arms", which shall not be infringed.

THAT is how the amendment is worded, & what the SCOTUS interpreted. How hard is that to understand?

The AR15 isn't a hunting rifle.

The civilian semi-auto AR 15 is a sporting rifle. What does hunting have to do with anything??
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 208
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 2:50:42 PM
Irish, it doesn't even need to be a semi:

I suspect this new crew of defenders of guns is going to finally blow it for the rest. Open carry at Kroger's, Wal-Mart, State Legislators' offices may make the testosteronically challenged feel real good, but it's just getting too outre to be ignored for much longer.

Panic buttons coming to Texas House after open carry ...
Jan 14, 2015 - Donation history shows overwhelming spending gap in Texas gun debate ... Wednesday that some representatives already had office panic buttons. ... How do these guys get off trying to intimidate legislatures because they ...
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 209
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 3:58:47 PM

The civilian semi-auto AR 15 is a sporting rifle. What does hunting have to do with anything??

Well, I was going to quote and repost the claims made on this thread about using the AR15 hunting....but I'll just give you ArmiLite's description of the current AR15

Item Number: 15A4B

Hunting, Competition, Police, & Military shooters, all desire versatility in sighting options.

The Armalite M-15A4 SPR line is an efficient platform on which to build mulitiple sighting options. The M-15A4 offers the flexibility of the MIL-STD 1913 rail applied to the time-honored service rifle model. Light recoiling and dead on accurate, the M15A4 Special Purpose Rifle line accepts Armalite's removable iron front sight, carry handle or scope mounts as well as other devices conforming to the MIL-STD 1913 rail.

The families of the 20 children and 6 teachers killed by Adam Lanza with his AR15 (30 round mag) are suing Armilite:

The families of nine of the 26 people killed and a teacher wounded two years ago at the Sandy Hook Elementary School filed a lawsuit Monday against the manufacturer, distributor and seller of the rifle used in the shooting.

The negligence and wrongful death lawsuit, filed in Bridgeport Superior Court, asserts that the Bushmaster AR-15 rifle should not have been made publicly available because it was designed for military use and is unsuited for hunting or home defense.

"The AR-15 was specifically engineered for the United States military to meet the needs of changing warfare," attorney Josh Koskoff said in a release. "In fact, one of the Army's specifications for the AR-15 was that it has the capability to penetrate a steel helmet."
from Oregonlive

The Gun lobby and the NRA are classic examples of big money in elections gone wrong...they've convinced the pro-gun public that there cannot be one inch of gun the expense of our children
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 210
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 4:09:46 PM

Wrong. In strict constitutional terms,


There have been more than a handful of challenges brought upon the Supreme Court since the early 1800s and all have been decided as the 2nd Amendment being an INDIVIDUAL , or citizens right versus a COLLECTIVE, or states right.

Concerning a "well regulated militia", the militia clause is just that - a COLLECTIVE, or state militia being ultimately formed from these ever-perpetually armed PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS/citizens IF EVER NEEDED.

UNLESS NEEDED, no militia needs to be formed, and private INDIVIDUALS/ citizens(PEOPLE) maintain the perpetual INDIVIDUAL right, and that right is " the right of the people to keep and bear arms", which shall not be infringed.

THAT is how the amendment is worded, & what the SCOTUS interpreted. How hard is that to understand?

And the 2nd amendment does not preclude the Federal and State Govts. In the Wild West restricting what weapons an individual can own. Nor does it state that individuals can keep arms purely for civilian purposes.Nor does it say that an individual can possess arms for whatever reason they wish.

How is that hard to understand?

The civilian semi-auto AR 15 is a sporting rifle. What does hunting have to do with anything??

I'm sure the 20 bereaved families of the school kids murdered at Sandy Hook would be glad to know that their bereavement was caused only by a sporting rifle(Pfft!)
Joined: 12/19/2011
Msg: 211
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 4:10:37 PM
woobytoodsday, for someone whom claims she was so involved in the Civil Rights Movement in the USA....

Yet you don't know about the Racist Roots of Gun Control in the USA......

I guess You don't know that MLK kept a Arsenal of Loaded Firearms in His house... That MLK applied for a CCW Permit & was denied it..... You've never heard of the Deacons for Defense and Justice.

You agree with Governor Reagan when he signed the Monford Act in California... Which outlawed the Open Carry of Loaded Firearms in the State for Everyone, because the Black Panthers were openly carrying firearms to Protect Blacks in Oakland...

That would be like saying since Rosa Parks can't ride at the Front of the Bus, then no one can ride there....

^^^^^^ Once again Robaustralia If you want to get down on Your knees & lick the hand that feeds You, go ahead......

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
Samuel Adams

As for BBI & Hunting Arms..... Almost every Popular Hunting Rifle can trace it's Roots back to a Military Rifle..... The Scoped Bolt Action Rifle that many Hunters use comes straight form the Scoped Sniper Rifles the Military used..... Yes some Hunters say "what do you need a AR-15 for Hunting"? In the past I bet there were some Hunters who said, "what do you need that Bolt Action Rifle for Hunting"?
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 212
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 5:01:55 PM
MSG 223

Oh I forgot about you. Subject of the Crown? I'm not sure if you intended that as a joke or you are just plain stupid, although I think the latter is close to the truth.Just proves your ignorance.

You should write to the Governor of California and vent your anger about how he has restricted your RIGHT to bear arms. Or is that why your knickers are in a knot because you were deemed mentally unstable and your guns were confiscated?

Whilst you are at it you should write to the Queen and advise her that one of her former colonies (The Wild West) cannot even guarantee that her schoolchildren can be guaranteed their RIGHTS whilst at school.

She might write back and express her dismay that a former British Colony hasn't reached maturity yet.Which is glaringly obvious.
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 213
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 5:03:31 PM

As for BBI & Hunting Arms..... Almost every Popular Hunting Rifle can trace it's Roots back to a Military Rifle..... The Scoped Bolt Action Rifle that many Hunters use comes straight form the Scoped Sniper Rifles the Military used..... Yes some Hunters say "what do you need a AR-15 for Hunting"? In the past I bet there were some Hunters who said, "what do you need that Bolt Action Rifle for Hunting"?

So, you subscribe to the spray and pray method of hunting....nice
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 214
view profile
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 5:34:44 PM

Couldn't refute anything LC said so you had to resort to a vague ad hominem eh? It is easy to see you don't understand rational discourse.However granting citizens the rights and resources to commit mass shootings must be something you are tremendously proud of.

Another Subject of the Crown who doesn't understand the Difference between Rights & Privileges...
My Rights are not Granted by the Government, they are Natural Rights, I have them, even if the Government doesn't recognize them..
Most likely You will never understand what it means to be a Free Citizen & will always look at things thru the Eyes of a Subject... It's too ingrained in Your Very Being.. You Can't or Won't understand the Difference between the two.....

As one of our Founding Fathers said to those who preferred to remain Subjects of the Crown.....

Another poster who doesn't understand that "the Difference between Rights & Privileges" is an irrelevancy to the points being made. I've already said I'm not arguing against anything to do with your Constitution. It means nothing to me and I don't care about the 'rights' it guarantees you.

I'm simply arguing that USians don't have a right to pretend, unchallenged, that the gun laws, or absence of them, in their country are sensible, or rational, or lead to any desirable outcomes that couldn't be obtained otherwise.
There is a, statistically obvious, problem and a discussion about the actual public safety issue might figure out ways to alleviate it. But most times I mention it someone responds with a Capitalised Speech about the Founding Fathers and what Great Document the Constitution is and how Important it was in Creating the Great Nation that is the USA.
Which is exactly what you did.

It looks like a pretty clear public safety issue to me, just as the 'Lawn Darts' (mentioned in my previous post) issue was. Why don't you have a go at enunciating what the difference between the two issues is? Leave aside the Founding Fathers stuff, we'll take that as understood - you have a Guaranteed Right etc etc etc.
Now within that, what might be done to alleviate the - statistically obvious and undeniable - public safety issue?

We can take it as understood too that there's quite often no way to tell a law abiding citizen from one that isn't - until they cross over, with a bang as it were - from being one, to being the other. So the witless suggestion that gunz should only be issued to 'law abiding' people is senseless and I'm sure you wouldn't want to be that, so try to be creative.

Do you realise that in the US about 100 children under 14 are shot and killed 'accidentally' every year?

This doesn't even make the Top 10 reasons of Accidental Deaths of children....
Number 1 is Motor Vehicle Collisions.......
Ban Motor Vehicle Travel, if it saves One Child's Life, it worth it....

Number 2 is Drownings.....
You want to save Children's Lives... Ban anything that can contain enough Water that a Child Could Possibly fall into & Drown..... There goes Your Bathtub, buckets, swimming pools..

Better give up that big Stock Pot in Your Kitchen.........

Your fallacious comparison doesn't address the point.
Take a deep breath and think about whether it makes sense for the medical establishment to do nothing at all about cancer because more people die of heart disease.

It must surprise you to discover that they can, and do, look at ways to reduce the numbers of people who die from cancer related ailments while simultaneously addressing the heart disease related death toll.
Amazingly, many public safety agencies can also pull off this feat - they can investigate the safety of toys that might only have injured a few while simultaneously investigating, and looking for ways to ameliorate, the much larger harms caused by some other product.
Clever hey?

You also overlook, for some reason, that we can, and do, regulate the ownership and use of motor vehicles and that enormous resources have been devoted over a lengthy period into trying to discover ways to make them, and the ways they are used, safer. This is a continuous process that still goes on.
Here in Australia we also address the issue of child drownings in various ways - pool fencing is mandatory for instance.
Our public safety agencies aren't just limited to one problem at a time, and I doubt yours are either, so it makes no sense (like, none at all...) to ignore the 100 shot to death children because some larger number drowned.
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 215
view profile
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 5:36:27 PM

The Gun lobby and the NRA are classic examples of big money in elections gone wrong...they've convinced the pro-gun public that there cannot be one inch of gun the expense of our children.

This ^^^ is the key point. Even allowing for a 'right' to own guns there must be sensible steps that can be taken to reduce the evident public safety problem.
Actually, it's not that mysterious, there are sensible steps and many of them have already been identified.

It makes no difference to me of course, the US can do whatever it likes domestically.

The only point I'm arguing is against the untrue, and often repeated, claim that an armed public increases everyones safety - it doesn't, and the statistics show it clearly.
Some may argue that statistics are unreliable, they lie? Except it's well known, and accepted, that homicide and death statistics generally are the most reliable - mostly because the metric (a dead child, an ex-wife with holes in her, a classroom cluttered with dead students) is so unambiguously obvious.
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 216
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 5:55:55 PM

I guess You don't know that MLK kept a Arsenal of Loaded Firearms in His house... That MLK applied for a CCW Permit & was denied it..... You've never heard of the Deacons for Defense and Justice.

I guess you didn't know why MLK would feel the need to arm himself to the teeth either, but hey why bother with the relevance, just try to pass it off as something else.
Joined: 4/18/2014
Msg: 217
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 6:25:28 PM
With the prevalence of the Ku Klux Klan and others of their ilk in the 50's, 60's and beyond....if I was MLK I'd want protection too. But, it didn't stop the crazies that shot John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy either. Quite a history.
Joined: 11/28/2014
Msg: 218
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 8:21:45 PM
"With the prevalence of the Ku Klux Klan and others of their ilk in the 50's, 60's and beyond....if I was MLK I'd want protection too."


I agree, we had people like US Senator Robert Byrd, a Democrat who said........ "I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.

—Robert C. Byrd

^^^^That is scary stuff, coming from a racist
Joined: 4/18/2014
Msg: 219
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 8:26:58 PM
A little over dramatic don't you think? You can pray, attend church, have healthcare, home, job, you're either lying, full of bullshyt, talking out of your azz, scared, or just stupid. No one has taken anything from you. Why are all these conservatives and teabag idiots so over the top and melodramatic.

To AJ, I'm well aware,the members of the KKK came from both political parties. I'm not proud that liberals were members, I hope you're not proud that conservatives were either. All we can do is learn from this and not repeat it. My original comment on the KKK was not a slam against any political party.
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 220
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 8:50:58 PM
My technique towards companies/people with whom I disagree is typically to vote with my wallet.
For example, the actor Liam Neeson started getting all silly about firearms ownership recently.
Interesting since he uses tons of 'em in his movies. No problem...I just stop seeing his movies in the theater.

Same thing with anti-gun folks. You don't like rifles, shotguns, and handguns?
No problem. Send a message to the manufacturer by NOT purchasing one. Send them a letter to say why, too.
That is the beauty of a free country. We can make decisions that fit best for OUR lives and living situations.
Joined: 4/18/2014
Msg: 221
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 9:22:18 PM
Well Cautious, if you stopped making stupid comments like you did at the end of that last post, people wouldn't call you on it. Making comments like the liberals have taken away all your rights is....well, it's stupid. Which is a nice easy word for you to figure out without a dictionary. And just in case you don't know, because many of you south of the border than figure the US is the centre of the universe, we get all your TV and news stations here as well as BBC and other world news stations plus Canadian stations. We are probably much better informed than the average American. And I don't recall the liberals taking anything away from you. Care to cite a few examples? Just two or three, I'd hate to have you use your other hand to count.
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 222
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 9:39:26 PM
Kinda fascinating having Byrd as a Senator--if ever a man learned and grew on the job, he was that man.

Byrd worked as a gas-station attendant, a grocery-store clerk, a shipyard welder during World War II, and a butcher, before he won a seat in the West Virginia House of Delegates in 1946, representing Raleigh County from 1947 to 1950.[8] Byrd became a local celebrity after a radio station in Beckley, WV began broadcasting his "fiery fundamentalist lessons."[24] In 1950, he was elected to the West Virginia Senate, where he served from 1951 to 1952.[8] After being elected to the United States House of Representatives, he began night classes at American University Washington College of Law in 1953, but did not receive his J.D. degree from the university until a decade later,[8] by which time he was a U.S. Senator. President John F. Kennedy spoke at the commencement ceremony on June 10, 1963 and mentioned Byrd by name, referencing Byrd's achievement. Byrd also studied at The George Washington University Law School but did not receive an undergraduate degree until 1994, when he graduated from Marshall University.[5]
Joined: 1/21/2015
Msg: 223
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 9:52:07 PM
Well that was a waste of time. I read almost 10 pages of posts and I still don't know what kind of pizza anyone likes.

Metallica - One
Joined: 11/28/2014
Msg: 224
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 10:00:54 PM
wooby, I am glad you are ok with a racist, I definitely am not

The Rise of Bobby Byrd

He was born Cornelius Calvin Sale, Jr. on November 20th, 1917. His mother died the following year in the great influenza epidemic of 1918. He was raised by an aunt and uncle, Vlurma and Titus Byrd, who renamed the infant Robert Carlyle Byrd. Titus worked in a coalmine in southern West Virginia. Robert graduated first in his high school class, and then worked a series of menial jobs.

In the early 1940s, when Byrd was in his early twenties, he chose to busy himself co-founding a klavern – a local chapter of the Ku Klux Klan, in Sophia, West Virginia. He was a Klansman through and through, a True Believer, and totally committed to the Klan’s racist ideology. Decades later Byrd would claim that he only joined the Klan because it was anti-communist, but when Byrd joined the Klan the Soviet Union was our ally in a united struggle against Adolf Hitler, FDR was calling Stalin “Uncle Joe” and Americans were anxiously cheering every success of the Red Army. The Cold War did not begin until 1947, by which time Byrd claimed he had quit the Klan.

It pleased Robert Byrd to swell the ranks of his klavern with new recruits. He was granted the title of Kleagle (recruiter) and he used his considerable powers of persuasion to gather 150 new members to the Ku Klux Klan. Byrd was an enthusiastic salesman of the Klan’s core message of white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant supremacy. In 1944 he wrote to segregationist Mississippi Senator Theodore Bilbo:

“I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side . . . Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds.”

As late as 1947 Byrd was writing to a Grand Wizard his heartfelt belief that “The Klan is needed today as never before, and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia and in every state in the nation.”

According to Robert Byrd himself it was a Klan official who persuaded Byrd to enter politics. “You have a talent for leadership, Bob,” the Klansman told him. “The country needs young men like you in the leadership of the nation.”

Byrd was flattered: “Suddenly lights flashed in my mind! Someone important had recognized my abilities!” And “the thought of a political career had never really hit me. But strike me that night, it did.”

When the time arrived for his klavern to vote for its highest ranking officer, Robert Byrd was unanimously elected as the klavern’s Exalted Cyclops. Later, in 1952, when he was campaigning for the United States House of Representatives, Robert Byrd told the preposterous lie that his interest in the Klan had fizzled after one year and that “During the nine years that have followed, I have never been interested in the Klan.”

In truth, his sympathy for Klan perspectives and Klan methods was not a brief infatuation. Byrd was thirty years old when he assured the Grand Wizard that “The Klan is needed today as never before.” As late as 1964, when Byrd was 47, he was still totally committed to keeping those uppity darkies in their place. That year, Robert Byrd eagerly joined other Democrats, led by Richard Russell of Georgia, to filibuster the Civil Rights Act to death. Byrd held the Senate floor for a whopping fourteen hours and thirteen minutes. A sample quote from his ’64 oration:

“Men are not created equal today, and they were not created equal in 1776, when the Declaration of Independence was written. Men and races of men differ in appearance, ways, physical power, mental capacity, creativity and vision.”

Yikes! His claim that races of men differ in mental capacity has no scientific merit. All measurable differences between racial groups are close enough to be accounted for by differences in education and culture. For example: ninety percent of black children are raised by women with less than one year of college education. That’s going to pull down the skill level of the black kids as a group, but it doesn’t diminish their mental capacity. The kids just need better-educated mentors. White men today turn in higher average IQ test scores than they did in the 1920s because they are now better educated. In any case, the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution doesn’t draw any distinctions between persons of varying mental capacity or creativity; the Amendment guarantees equal treatment before the law to everyone. Byrd was arguing for some sort of second-class citizenship for blacks based on his personal sense of which races were prettier than others.

It’s an historical fact that the Ku Klux Klan of Robert Byrd’s time was a violent home-grown terrorist organization that advanced its racist agenda by acts of criminal conspiracy. The Klan was evil and Robert Byrd was a principal architect of a West Virginia contingent of that terrorist secret society. He was a salesman for evil. He was unanimously elected Exalted Cyclops because he most perfectly articulated the essence of the Klan ethos.

Even if it were true, as Robert Byrd claimed, that his klavern didn’t personally lynch any black folks, the very creation of a Ku Klux Klan klavern in Byrd’s neck of the woods was itself an act of intimidation. Black people felt less secure and less confident in asserting their rights as citizens because of Robert Byrd’s behavior. In what sort of weird republic would such a person be eulogized by that republic’s chief executive?

Burying Bobby Byrd

Robert Byrd died at age 92. He lay in repose on the Senate floor for six hours while senators, past and present, publicly displayed their sympathy. The last senator laid in repose in the Senate chamber was William Langer in 1959, who is best remembered for reviving his political after a felony conviction. Byrd, the former Ku Klux Klan organizer, Kleagle and Exalted Cyclops, was laid in repose on the Lincoln Cataflaque, a bier that was built for the coffin of Abraham Lincoln, the Great Emancipator. It was grotesque; it was the Democrat Party trying to bury its ugly past beneath borrowed symbolism.

Mr. Byrd was given a military honor guard at the taxpayers’ expense. His corpse was flown from Andrews Air Force Base in suburban Maryland to Charleston, West Virginia on the taxpayers’ dime. Then a horse-drawn hearse carried Byrd’s coffin 2.2 miles to the Capitol for another 12-hour public exhibition. Byrd’s memorial service featured President Obama as headline speaker, with supporting roles played by V.P. Joe Biden and the ever-empathetic Bill Clinton.

Obama Speaks

Obama’s eulogy was a masterpiece of indirection. The words “Ku Klux Klan” did not escape his lips even once. “Years from now,” intoned our first black president, “when I think of the man we memorialize today, I’ll remember him as he was when I came to know him, his white hair full like a mane, his gait steadied with a cane.”

Of course, that’s how Obama will remember Bobby Byrd. Why would the president ever want to be reminded that the Democrat Party was the party of the Old Confederacy for almost a century and that the Ku Klux Klan was that party’s terror wing – its instrument for quashing the Negro franchise?

“He was a Senate icon,” droned Obama. “He was a Party leader. He was an elder statesman. And he was my friend. That’s how I’ll remember him.” This is Obama is telling us way more about himself than about Bobby Byrd.

“From the aunt and uncle who raised him, amid West Virginia’s coal camps, he gained not only his Byrd name but a reverence for God Almighty . . .” But not apparently for God’s Creation – take those pesky Negroes, for example . . .

Warming to his curiously tailored history, Obama told Byrd’s admirers that “Unable to afford college, he did what he could to get by, finding work as a gas station attendant, a produce salesman, a meat cutter, and a welder in the shipyards of Baltimore and Tampa during World War II. Returning to West Virginia after the war, he ran for the state House of Delegates, using his fiddle case as a briefcase, the better to stand out on the stump.”

How quaint is that?! Obama’s selective memory “just forgot” that during this period Bobby Byrd was also a salesman for hideous anti-black bigotry of the crudest type and that Byrd shunned military service because “I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side.” Bobby Byrd was paid a ten-dollar bounty for every new member he brought into the ranks of the Ku Klux Klan.

Obama continued flinging whitewash:

“Before long, he ran for Congress, serving in the House before jumping over to the Senate, where he was elected nine times, held almost every leadership role imaginable, and proved as capable of swaying others as standing alone, marking a row of milestones along the way. Longest-serving member of Congress. Nearly 19,000 votes cast. Not a single loss at the polls – a record that speaks to the bond that he had with you, the people of his state.”

This is the real reason for Obama’s selective amnesia: Byrd was a rainmaker for the Democrat Party, a party that was complicit in Byrd’s tainted past. Obama was at the memorial service to put the best possible face on both Byrd and the Democrat Party. It was an exercise in political cosmetic embalming.

According to the New York Times (6/29/10, pg. A22):

“He waged his first race for the United States Senate in 1958 and won easily: the nation was in a recession, and West Virginia was largely Democratic.

“With the Democrats gaining 13 seats in that election, spots opened up on major committees, and Lyndon B. Johnson, the majority leader, gave quite a few to freshmen. Mr. Byrd was put on the Appropriations Committee, and he promptly got to work winning money for West Virginia projects.”


“’[In] 1964, with Johnson now president and no longer a force in the Senate, Mr. Byrd sided with Senator Richard B. Russell Jr. of Georgia, the leader of Southern Democrats, and filibustered against a stronger civil rights measure that would open restaurants and hotels to blacks, ban job discrimination and enable the Justice Department to register black voters in Deep South states . . .”


“But after the 1988 elections, Senate Democrats replaced [Byrd] with someone they thought would make a better spokesman on television – Senator George J. Mitchell of Maine.
“Mr. Byrd was given his dream job, as the Appropriations Committee chairman. “I hope to become West Virginia’s billion-dollar industry,” Mr. Byrd said.
“By the time this six-year term of mine is up” in 1995, he went on, “I will have added at least a billion dollars. That’s my goal for West Virginia.”
“In 1991, he had already reached that goal, four years early, according to a tally by The Associated Press.”

In other words, Byrd held powerful committee chairmanships; he was influential; he was feared. Byrd solidified his homegrown voter base by picking the pockets of taxpayers in the other forty-nine states.

But to hear Barack Obama tell it the “Senate icon” in the coffin “was a deeply religious man, a Christian.” Obama rhapsodized that “Robert Byrd was a mountain eagle, and his lowest swoop was still higher than the other birds upon the plain.” Really? Byrd’s “lowest swoop” was his decades-long struggle to rob black citizens of their civil rights under our Constitution. How is Byrd’s loathsome behavior on a higher moral plain than the best efforts of true Christians, Mr. Obama?

The closest Obama came to acknowledging that Robert Byrd belonged to a terrorist gang was this squishy allusion:

“[Robert Byrd] understood that our lives are marked by sins as well as virtues, failures as well as successes, weakness as well as strength. We know there are things he said – and things he did – that he came to regret. I remember talking about that the first time I visited with him. He said, ‘There are things I regretted in my youth. You may know that.’ And I said, ‘None of us are absent some regrets, Senator. That’s why we enjoy and seek the grace of God.’”

Well, thanks for the absolution, Saint Barack! Robert Byrd was thirty-years-old when he was encouraging a revival of the Ku Klux Klan all across America; he was forty-seven years old when he filibustered for over 14 hours in an effort to kill the Civil Rights Act of 1964. So much for “things I regretted in my youth.”

Bill Clinton Can Empathize

Former Democrat president Bill Clinton was also on hand to spin-doctor Bobby Byrd’s contributions to American race relations; Bill had done his signature whitewash before. At a sculpture dedication for the segregationist Arkansas Senator J. William Fulbright, on October 21st, 2002, Clinton had praised the dead Dixiecrat as “a citizen of the world, a native of my home state and my mentor and friend, Senator Fulbright.” Clinton’s “mentor and friend” had enthusiastically signed The Southern Manifesto that opposed in every way the Supreme Court’s historic Brown v. Board of Education decision of 1954. Fulbright was one of the Democrats who filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1957 and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Fulbright voted against the 1965 Voting Rights Act. That was Clinton’s “mentor and friend.”

Governor Bill Clinton was sued by the NAACP in 1989 under the federal Voting Rights Act of 1965. As the Arkansas Gazette reported on December 6th, 1989, “Plaintiffs offered plenty of proof of monolithic voting along racial lines, intimidation of black voters and candidates and other official acts that made voting harder for blacks.” A three-judge panel ordered Clinton to redraw electoral districts to improve black voting potential.

In all of his twelve years as governor of Arkansas, never once did Bill Clinton endorse a civil rights law. He did, however, happily issue birthday proclamations honoring Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis. Clinton willingly put his signature on Act 116 in 1987, the statute that confirmed that the star above the word “Arkansas” on the state’s flag “is to commemorate the Confederate States of America.” Arkansas observed Confederate Flag Day on every year that Clinton was governor. Are you getting the picture here?

At Clinton’s 1979 gubernatorial inauguration he gave a big hug to former governor Orval Faubus, the guy who deployed National Guard troops to bar nine black students from entering Little Rock’s Central High School in 1957. Republican President Dwight Eisenhower had to send in soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division to crack open Central High and safeguard the black kid’s civil rights. This is the same Orval Faubus whom Clinton lauded as a “man of significant ability.” So what did Ol’ Bill have to say about the late Bobby Byrd? In his own words:

“A lot of people who wrote these eulogies for Senator Byrd in the newspapers, and I read a bunch of them, and they mention that he once had a fleeting association with the Ku Klux Klan and what does that mean. I tell you what it means. He was a country boy from the hills and the hollows of West Virginia. He was trying to get elected, and maybe he did something he shouldn’t have done.”

“Maybe he did something he shouldn’t have done.”? To hear Bill tell it, Bobby Byrd only went to Klan rallies ‘cause he liked them yummy box lunches. Dang! We know that’s not the truth and Bill Clinton knows it too. Bobby collected a ten-dollar bounty for every new member he brought to the ranks of the Ku Klux Klan and he recruited 150 new members. That’s three platoons of Klansmen. Certainly Byrd’s affection for crude racism wasn’t “fleeting.”

And what’s all this nonsense about “He was a country boy . . . He was trying to get elected . . .” Byrd himself said that he never thought of running for any office until after he joined the Klan and a high-ranking Klansman encouraged Byrd to seek election. So Byrd was embracing racism before he became politically active. Even creepier is Bill Clinton’s attempt to excuse all of Byrd’s hard work for a terrorist conspiracy on the grounds that he was just promoting himself as a southern Democrat. Does political expediency excuse immoral behavior?

“There are no perfect politicians,” mused the former president whose “fleeting association” with a young intern led to his suborning perjury, his impeachment and the suspension of his law license.

The liberal media were fatuous to a fault. They did their best to elevate Bobby Byrd by romanticizing his penchant for quoting Shakespeare and Scripture. In truth, Byrd was a blowhard and he was not liked in the Senate. The arc of his five-decade political career was guided by cynical self interest. He was among the very last of the Dixiecrat race baiters to abandon naked racism; he had spent the greater part of three decades restricting the civil rights of black citizens. After his party went all “welfare state” in the 1960s, Byrd was only too happy to repackage himself as a friend of the needy – of any race. Byrd understood that his political longevity depended on his philosophical elasticity; the times were changing; if hanging onto a powerful chairmanship meant having to kiss black babies, then Bobby Byrd would cheerily pucker up.

The eulogies were all crap and nonsense. Robert Byrd was too big to ignore even in death, so he got the big sendoff. The Democrats would miss his clout, but all of them were secretly relieved to have this last lingering reminder of the Democrat Party’s intimate association with the Old South and the Ku Klux Klan finally laid to rest. All that remains is to take the measure of Robert Byrd’s legacy.

Robert Byrd’s Big Roads to Nowhere

The president’s eulogy included this bit folk mythology: “Transplanted to Washington, his heart remained in West Virginia, in the place that shaped him, with the people he loved. His heart belonged to you. Making life better here was his only agenda, Giving you hope, he said, was his greatest achievement. Hope in the form of new jobs and industries . . .”

It’s true that Robert Byrd brought billions of dollars to West Virginia, but he also drove billions of dollars worth of economic development away from West Virginia. In other words, pork was not progress for West Virginia.

More than fifty West Virginia projects bear the names of Robert Byrd or his wife Erma – most of them were bankrolled by taxpayers. It bothered Byrd not at all when groups such as Citizens Against Government Waste denounced his as “The King of Pork.” The CAGW says Byrd steered 2.26 billion dollars to West Virginia between 2000 and 2008 alone. Byrd cared nothing at all about deficits or the national debt and he made no effort to conceal his squalid lust for power. At a dedication for one of the projects that bore his name, Byrd recalled that the project began “with a visit to my office, yeah! Yeah, man. Yeah, man, a visit to my office, yeah” by a school president. “I rolled up my sleeves to do the work in Congress to secure the federal funding. Yeah, man, you’re looking at Big Daddy. Big Daddy! . . . I’ve been [in the Senate] longer than anybody else . . . So I added $35.6 million. That ain’t chicken feed. No man, that’s not little stuff. That’s not small stuff.”

The same Robert Byrd who complained about the costs associated with President Bush’s landing on the USS Abraham Lincoln to greet returning American troops had no qualms about splurging $150,000 of the taxpayer’s earnings on a second office for himself, one closer to the Senate, for his personal convenience.

“His heart belonged to you,” President Obama cooed to the crowd. “Making life better for you was his only agenda.” The president was talking trash. Despite the uncounted billions of taxpayer dollars that Robert Byrd diverted to West Virginia, his home state stubbornly remained the third poorest state in America. As I said, pork is not progress; pork is not prosperity. When Bobby Byrd entered the Senate in 1959, West Virginia ranked 39th in median family income and 42nd in per person income. On the day of Bobby Byrd’s death, West Virginia had fallen to 48th in both categories.

Half a century ago, when Byrd entered the Senate, West Virginians were doing better than the folks down in North Carolina. Back then both states took different routes to development: West Virginia relied on tax dollars siphoned south by Bobby Byrd, while North Carolina kept taxes low, kept regulation light and developed programs to create a citizen workforce with modern skills. In North Carolina a coalition of businessmen, academics and government people united to direct college graduates to companies needing their skills. The government of North Carolina tossed in some tax credits for research and development. What started modestly is now 170 companies employing more than 40,000 wage earners.

Meanwhile, up north in West Virginia, Bobby Byrd was spinning yarns about the raw power of other people’s tax dollars to lift West Virginia out of the ditch. “What I’m doing is spreading good seed that will bear fruit a hundredfold,” Byrd proclaimed. “Prosperity flows along concrete rivers.” It was wishful thinking masquerading as economic theory.

Take West Virginia’s Route 50 for example. Thanks to Bobby Byrd our tax dollars paid to widen this ribbon of concrete from two lanes to four in the hope that it would magically attract businesses to its robust wideness. It’s been thirty years and to this day you can drive on Route 50 and not see another car for hours on end. Route 50 is the kind of fantasy top-down planning that brought the Soviet Union to its knees.

Only one of Bobby Byrd’s stupid roads to nowhere ever attracted anything: West Virginia’s very expensive Interstate 68 attracted one federal penitentiary in Hazelton because the chosen spot for the prison was now accessible while the whole rest of the road remained almost completely barren of people or businesses.

No other state is so pathetically dependent on government charity; it’s a virtual taxpayer-supported plantation. A whacking 51.3% of West Virginia’s economy relies on government spending of some sort. West Virginia has become a culture of dependency, thanks to the influential chairmanships of Robert Byrd. This sort of dependency leaves states vulnerable to the loss of their patrons. A Harvard study revealed that when a state’s patron looses his chairmanship on a powerful committee, that state looses between 20 and 30 percent of its earmarked goodies.

Healthy economies thrive on long-term investments. Robert Byrd’s random cash drops into West Virginia were welcome, but offered no long-term potential; they were a series of brief up-ticks without a future. By snapping up workers and state resources, government projects drove up the cost of local labor and resources, thereby discouraging private development. West Virginia’s reliance on Robert Byrd’s money mill encouraged the state to act in ways that were hostile to private enterprise. Now that West Virginia’s patron is dead and buried, enterprise continues to shun West Virginia.

West Virginia never developed a skilled workforce the way North Carolina did; even now it stupidly wards off investment with high taxes and overbearing regulation. Where West Virginia offers the identical resources of neighboring states, such as along its borders with Maryland and Kentucky, big corporations keep their operations just outside West Virginia.

West Virginia lurched through the Byrd decades like a blind beggar with his palm outstretched and no coherent vision of the future. Obama’s assertion that Robert Byrd gave West Virginians “Hope in the form of jobs and industries” rings hollow when more than half of West Virginia’s economy is a government-run plantation.

When our first black president was done flinging whitewash and Ol’ Bill was done seeking absolution for himself and the preposterous Huffington Post was done scrambling after any Ku Klux Klansman who would give it a usable quote that Bobby Byrd wasn’t that big of a hate-drenched racist, the stark truth remained: Robert Byrd was a jerk. For the first fifty years of his life he was a twisted racist loudmouth and for the remainder of his life he was a pompous bloodsucking welfare-state-promoting loudmouth. He was The King of Pork with a lust for building super-expensive roads to nowhere. During his tenure in Congress the people of West Virginia slid backward; their personal and family wealth declined.

Robert Byrd and his fellow welfare-state parasites transformed West Virginia into the state that God forgot. The King of Pork is dead. No patriot will shed a tear.

Thomas Clough
Copyright 2010
August 29, 2010
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 225
view profile
Armed pizza robber gets extra topping.
Posted: 1/24/2015 10:26:42 PM

"In 1976, the Washington, D.C. City Council passed a law generally prohibiting residents from possessing handguns and requiring that all firearms in private homes be (1) kept unloaded and (2) rendered temporally inoperable via disassembly or installation of a trigger lock. The law became operative on Sept. 24, 1976.[33] [34]"

"* On June 26, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 ruling, struck down this law as unconstitutional.[35]"

[B]"During the years in which the D.C. handgun ban and trigger lock law was in effect, the Washington, D.C. murder rate averaged 73% higher than it was at the outset of the law, while the U.S. murder rate averaged 11% lower

'Just Facts' from some site called 'gun control'?

It seemed a bit counter-intuitive to me that the murder rate in Washington would so precipitously rise, mountain-like from a valley, at the very point when those safety measures were put in place, and then fall - almost equally precipitously, when they were removed.
So I tried to check their sources... they attribute (alleged) 'sources' but their method of arriving at the figures they use is opaque - there's no way of telling if they made up that graph or actually based it on anything other than their imagination.

Interestingly, the implication that safety measures make it more dangerous for everyone is contradicted by figures (gun deaths from all causes) from 2007 -

The Geography of Gun Deaths
The map above charts firearm deaths for the 50 states plus the District of Columbia. Note that these figures include accidental shootings, suicides, even acts of self-defense, as well as crimes. As of 2007, 10.2 out of every 100,000 people were killed by firearms across the United States, but that rate varies dramatically from state to state.

So what are the factors that are associated with firearm deaths at the state level?

Poverty is one. The correlation between death by gun and poverty at the state level is .59.
Firearm deaths were far less likely to occur in states with higher levels of college graduates (-.64) and more creative class jobs (-.52).
Gun deaths were also less likely in states with higher levels of economic development (with a correlation of -.32 to economic output) and higher levels of happiness and well-being (-.41).
And for all the terrifying talk about violence-prone immigrants, states with more immigrants have lower levels of gun-related deaths (the correlation between the two being -.34).

And what about gun control? Might tighter gun control laws make a difference? Our analysis suggests that they do.
The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements.
Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).

The maps and charts were prepared by 'The Atlantic' but they hyperlink to their sources -
Which are just lists of raw figures by state. These lists also reference where the figures came from -

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Health Statistics. Underlying Cause of Death 1999-2010 on CDC WONDER Online Database, released 2012. Data are from the Multiple Cause of Death Files, 1999-2010, as compiled from data provided by the 57 vital statistics jurisdictions through the Vital Statistics Cooperative Program. Accessed on May 10, 2013.

If you want 'facts' you should probably balance your research.

And mass murders DON'T just occur in the United States.

Mass murders in Australia just since 1990 and notice NOT all of these were commited with firearms

Who has actually said mass murders DO only occur in the United States? Or that they can only be committed with firearms?

Besides which, that fact people light fires (some very large bushfires here - some with fatal consequences - have been found to have been deliberately lit) has nothing to do with whether or not something might be done to address the obvious public safety problem created by very large numbers of unregulated firearms floating about in the community.

You seem to be coming very close to the same ludicrous position espoused by a previous poster - that because more children under 14 drown we can pretend the 100 who are accidentally shot and killed every year are nothing to be concerned about.
Really? Are you saying that because some people light fires we can ignore guns?
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