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 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 76
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Freedom of Speech?Page 4 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)

As for You taking My comment as Saying You were acting Hysterical, the fact You took it that way, shows, in Your mind You might have been.... I didn't accuse You of it.... You went there on Your own...


Complete and utter passive/aggressive BS to try and manipulate another poster.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 77
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Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/30/2015 11:39:30 PM


I have never seen anything, in any of your posts, that shows sympathy for your "X-tians".


Now I am supposed to (for whatever reason I can't imagine) have some sort of "sympathy" for "X-tians" I have contact with?

I have sympathy for people who suffer losses ... but I don't understand a need to have "sympathy" for people who are practicing their religion.

That was in response to you saying - and I quote:


In the end, I just generally feel sorry for the people who feel it is absolutely necessary to call me out for not being a "X-tian".


When you feel sorry for somebody, most people feel sympathy towards them. It's kinda/sorta what it means.


It's not (as far as I can find) an insult. According to the Merriam Webster online dictionary, it's merely an abbreviation ...


When I am with 5,000 people and one of them says the Washington Redskins are racist, I'm inclined to tell that person to grow up and stop being silly. When I am with 5,000 people and I'm the only one saying it's NOT racist, I think that just maybe I'm wrong, and I should evaluate my beliefs.

xtian, as an abbreviation for Christian, is NOT the same as "X-tian". (and for the record, Christian vs "X-tian" is only saving you one letter). It is how you use it, and the words you use surrounding it, that makes it insulting and denigrating. I have a lot of difficulty believing that a woman with your intelligence can't, or won't, understand that - especially given the number of times you claim you've been on the receiving end.

As for the rest of your post - it's hard to reconcile your claimed behaviour in public with your observed behaviour in here.
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 78
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 5:47:35 AM

This Andrew Klavan is funny but very wise and very smart. He tells a story that is light but hits home what is happening. He and Bill Whittle are bright people who talk a lot of sense.


Do you have a video that shows that?

Because the one you posted was lies and half-truths and shows that they have less than a grade 5 education with regards to science.


That said, your lack of outrage with regards to the actions of your fellow terrorist christians is noted.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 79
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Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 8:30:21 AM
It blows my mind that people need, want, have to, believe in "god". Adults with critical thinking skills figured out that it was a lie to collect and control..before we were adults!

Why is it that the southern states have more people who are still religious ? What are they on because it's like they are clueless and stuck and what is worse, they want to keep it that way and have everyone else believe too. You'd think they'd figure it out and give it up, but nope. Is too...weird.


Patiotism is fricken weird too. As if they somehow had a say or control of what countty they were born in. Or do they take credit for grampa's decision to immigrate? Also, as if their country is that great. Haven't they bothered to read the patriot act? Free America, what a joke.

Who created borders anyway? Do you even know?

How many americans here have been outside their country? Hold a passport?
For supposedly a free country, you guys sure seem stuck, have a lot of rules, self imposed or otherwise.

I can understand if someone has extreme sadness and a maturity defect that they might want to believe in the fantasy that their mommy and daddt taught them taught them, but otherwise...wtf? Grow up!

Go read about how religions were started and by whom for what reasons and get over it, its pathetic and your ignorance is causing a lot of shit to go down. ...


btw we don't need someone to govern, coerce or rule us, or tell us what to say or not to, you can figure it out too, if you weren't so chicken shit or ... what?

I'm getting a little tired of the ignorance and my patience has worn out when it comes to crap like this.

Get some fresh air and exercise and read something that wasn't planted and eat something that was. This religious crap and patriotic crap is getting sickening.

One earth, make the best of it.
 bluemoon24_7
Joined: 4/18/2014
Msg: 80
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 8:46:16 AM
As an atheist, I find the above post lacks intelligent thought, shows lack of tolerance and is a slap on the face when none was required. Some atheists seem more intolerant and closed minded than some of the religious folks they slam. An open mind is a terrible thing to waste...for both sides.

"Adults with critical thinking skills" are smart enough to realize folks have differing opinions and differing beliefs and both can get along quite nicely.

Gotta love FREEDOM, it gives us choice but it doesn't fix stupid.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 81
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Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 8:54:49 AM
I agree bluemoon, I am intolerant and for good fckn reason. See the shit their beliefs continue? It affects me and my life.

I do realise people have different beliefs.

I wouldn't slap their face tho. That's violent. I've talked nice before and have left them alone. They don't leave us alone. If they come near my family to preach/coerce, they will feel the wrath ...of me.

Just speaking my mind and exercising my right to speak out (to protect the rights we have and regain the ones we had before religion or state got their noses and grubby hands in our lives).

I have way more patience with kids. These are supposedly adults I'm talking about. Somethings required.

Maybe they should tell us what would snap them out of it? Or get them to stfu.?
 bluemoon24_7
Joined: 4/18/2014
Msg: 82
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 9:10:16 AM
Go re-read Doremi's message 31. Especially the last paragraph. Wise words and I don't know if he's a believer or an atheist, I just like wise words from wise folks.
 aj7125
Joined: 11/28/2014
Msg: 83
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 9:36:27 AM
Yikes, I think some atheists need to go to their room and have a time out!!
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 84
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 9:40:49 AM

Yikes, I think some atheists need to go to their room and have a time out!!


Time outs are used by parents and teachers that feel they have lost "control".

Never used it, and always laughed when someone tried to tell me take one.

When I hear the dirt, on top of the wooden crate, I would have to assume that it will be the one and only time out I have to accept.
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 85
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 10:57:15 AM

Yikes, I think some atheists need to go to their room and have a time out!!


Typical christian trying to tell others what to do.
 Olwhatzhisname
Joined: 11/18/2014
Msg: 86
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Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 11:04:53 AM
^^^I will take that as your admission that you are a troll.

Please keep trolling and showing everyone here that you are just that stupid.

So stand up and be proud, as you can count youself as a class warfare racist with no tolorance for others!
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 87
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 11:16:56 AM

^^^I will take that as your admission that you are a troll.


Much in the same was a creationist would take a sunset as proof of an invisible sky wizard.




Please keep trolling and showing everyone here that you are just that stupid.


Irony alert.




So stand up and be proud, as you can count youse as a class warfare racist with no tolorance for others!


Aww how cute, you tried to use some big words but you could not even spell them. Better luck next time loser.
 Olwhatzhisname
Joined: 11/18/2014
Msg: 88
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Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 11:32:50 AM


"So stand up and be proud, as you can count youse as a class warfare racist with no tolorance for others!"

^^Aww how cute, you tried to use some big words but you could not even spell them. Better luck next time loser.


Thanks for taking the bait, brainiac! I knew you would.

See, I pretty much copied directly from you !!! Its called IRONY, moron......Right here in your own horribly mis-spelled words:


HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 787 (view)
So stand up and be proud, as you can count yoruself as someone with no toloroance for others..

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/16274424datingPostpage32.aspx

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In other news that is on topic, freedom of speech is alive & well , being practiced by religious folk:



Iraqi libraries ransacked by Islamic State group in Mosul



Jan 31, 4:19 AM (ET)

By SINAN SALAHEDDIN and SAMEER N. YACOUB

(AP) In this Friday, Jan. 23, 2015 photo, Iraqis look at books on al-Mutanabi Street,...
Full Image



BAGHDAD (AP) — When Islamic State group militants invaded the Central Library of Mosul earlier this month, they were on a mission to destroy a familiar enemy: other people's ideas.

Residents say the extremists smashed the locks that had protected the biggest repository of learning in the northern Iraq town, and loaded around 2,000 books — including children's stories, poetry, philosophy and tomes on sports, health, culture and science — into six pickup trucks. They left only Islamic texts.

The rest?

"These books promote infidelity and call for disobeying Allah. So they will be burned," a bearded militant in traditional Afghani two-piece clothing told residents, according to one man living nearby who spoke to The Associated Press. The man, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he feared retaliation, said the Islamic State group official made his impromptu address as others stuffed books into empty flour bags.

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20150131/ml--iraq-libraries_in_danger-62581f4dca.html

 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 89
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 11:56:27 AM
From the "poor oppressed christians" file we get:


Woman Who Vandalized Satanic Display in Florida Capitol Says Being Punished Would Be an Attack on Her Faith
January 30, 2015 by Hemant Mehta

Last month, we learned that The Satanic Temple’s display in the Florida State Capitol Building had been vandalized.

It turned out that the vandal was Susan Hemeryck, a 54-year-old Tea Party activist who wore a shirt with the phrase “Catholic Warrior” on it.

...She vandalized The Satanic Temple’s property… but, because she faces punishment for her crime, it’s an attack on her faith.



Read more and see video of this poor oppresed woman at:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/30/woman-who-vandalized-satanic-display-in-florida-capitol-says-being-punished-would-be-an-attack-on-her-faith/
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 90
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 3:39:16 PM

It's because you are nothing more than a "born-again" troll here on POF ... so I see no reason to place any value on anything you post.


And I put as much value on your posts as I do on Hitler's Mein Kampf(ZERO)

Very few English speaking people would even know the word Xtians exist, however it is commonly used to describe Christians who do try and push their religion onto others.(but you already knew that eh?)

Because you use emphasis on it like this"Xtians" means you are pathetically trying to stereotype all Christians as being like the abusive lady you described in your dreamt up Personal. Anecdote.

It is true those stereotypes exist , however what you are trying to portray is no different to saying all Muslims are terrorists, which is simply untrue, which means you wouldn't recognise reality if it crept up and bit you on the arse.

Must be sad to be so intellectually dishonest and not recognise it eh?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 91
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History
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 3:49:19 PM

As for the rest of your post - it's hard to reconcile your claimed behaviour in public with your observed behaviour in here.
Ya ... well you really don't know me but it appears you are very opinionated about your expectations of how an "Atheist" would act.

I was working years ago for an agency ... doing both in-office work and in-home patient work. There was a cute young lady working at the reception desk. My work in the office as well as others' work was further back (away from the reception area) and so she really never got to hear too much of our conversations but she did hear us laughing. We enjoyed our jobs and it reflected in our conversation and pretty much all of us had a good sense of humor.

One day, as the receptionist came back to deliver us some telephone messages, she over heard me telling one of my co-workers that I am an Atheist. After about 30 minutes she came back with an apologetic look on her face and asked if she had heard me correctly when I said I was an Atheist. I was surprised at the question but did not hesitate to confirm that she had heard correctly. She just stood there and looked at me and told me she never would have figured I was an Atheist. So I asked her why she was surprised.

She told me that "Atheists" never smile or laugh and do not know how to have fun ... are just very unhappy people all the time." She said she thought because I was always so pleasant and making jokes and laughing ... that just isn't how "Atheists" act. I reconfirmed that I am indeed an "Atheist" and then asked her where she could have gotten such an idea. She told me from her minister. She said he tells them about it "often".

I took her in my arms and gave her a big hug and told her, "Well, now you know differently. Now that you have experienced an 'Atheist' in person, the next time your minister tells you about 'Atheists', you can tell him what you have experienced."

I don't care that you hate "X-Tians".
Well you're also wrong about that. I don't "HATE" anyone! My sister is a rabid "born-again X-tian". She's pretty much the only family member that is ... and none of us ever have a problem getting together with her. We did have to make one rule ... when she's entertaining at her house, she gets to pray at meals and when the "non-believers" are entertaining she doesn't get to pray at meals. It works out just fine. And I asked her about my use o "X-tian" and she said it is not insulting.

I'm a musician and I also sing. Music gives my life meaning. I perform religious songs at weddings, I perform religious songs with my fellow chorus members ... on many different occasions. We perform at X-mas, at an Epiphany service in Upper Arlington (Ohio) in January, at Easter ... at national and local song festivals. Now I've heard that most people believe that "Atheists" aren't patriotic either. Wrong again. I'm also a patriot ... and perform lots of patriotic songs on the various patriotic holidays ... even every year on July 4th at my high school (in an alumni chorus) ... we open the school every year on July 4th.

It's not your viewpoints or opinions - it's how you express them, and the contempt you show for other posters and their opinions that believe something different.
Well either you are not very observant or you are purposely completely excusing "the close-minded, vicious, vitrol-laden way" in which the "religious" treat the non-believers in here.

Either way ... how you yell into the forest, so comes back the echo. I do not go into "attack mode" unless I have been attacked and believe me, the "religious" folks in here are in continuous "attack mode" because they do not believe the "non-religious" people should have any civil rights.

We do not qualify for free speech, voting rights ......... we do not qualify for anything the Constitution grants them because whether or not you have already figured it out by now ... the constitution was written only for the "religious".

Just an FYI ...
I do know other "Atheists" who have no tolerance what so ever for anything religious ... I'm not one. I'm insulted by your continuous insinuations that I have no "couth" when it comes to dealing with "religious" people pushing their beliefs and practices on me.

I do not ever go out of my way to pick fights with "religious" people ... what would be the sense in that? I have, however, taken enough hits on my not being "religious" (in the past), that I am no longer going to take the "passive" mode on it.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 92
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History
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 4:28:46 PM
@cotter:

Well either you are not very observant or you are purposely completely excusing "the close-minded, vicious, vitrol-laden way" in which the "religious" treat the non-believers in here.

As opposed to "the close-minded,vicious, vitrol-laden way" you attack others?

Either way ... how you yell into the forest, so comes back the echo. I do not go into "attack mode" unless I have been attacked and believe me, the "religious" folks in here are in continuous "attack mode" because they do not believe the "non-religious" people should have any civil rights.

Any time I've seen that, it's been in replay to some incendiary post that you've made, often from out of the blue. And it's not just Christians, either - I don't think I have ever seen you type Israel - they're "Zionists". Usually while bemoaning the plight of your poor, misunderstood, pure as the driven show Palestinians.

We do not qualify for free speech, voting rights ......... we do not qualify for anything the Constitution grants them because whether or not you have already figured it out by now ... the constitution was written only for the "religious".

Wow. Yes - your lack of free speech, as demonstrated in here, is very apparent. You say what you want, when you want, and how you want - God knows what we'd get from you if you DID have free speech. And voting rights? Are you going to sit there and tell me with a straight face that you've ever been denied the right to vote because of your Atheism? Seriously?

I do know other "Atheists" who have no tolerance what so ever for anything religious

That thing in front of you? It's called a "mirror".

I'm insulted by your continuous insinuations that I have no "couth" when it comes to dealing with "religious" people pushing their beliefs and practices on me.

First - I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying it outright. Guess what? I'm Agnostic, and unlike Atheists, I apparently DO have free speech. Isn't it wonderful? And by the way - I'm willing to be that almost everybody ELSE is absolutely just as insulted by the way you carry on about your "X-Tians". Hell - I'm not even Christian, and I have never been accused of being Politically Correct - but even MY sphincter snaps shut when you go on one of your rants.

I do not ever go out of my way to pick fights with "religious" people ... what would be the sense in that? I have, however, taken enough hits on my not being "religious" (in the past), that I am no longer going to take the "passive" mode on it.

That's your issue - there's no need to make it ours here as well. Please deal with it without doing exactly the same thing to those that disagree with YOU.

Most Atheists do not behave as you do - just as most Christians don't behave the way you describe. How about treating people as individuals for once, instead of constantly screaming at some all-encompassing, faceless, unseen mob of "X-Tians"?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 93
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History
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 5:18:04 PM


Either way ... how you yell into the forest, so comes back the echo.

Any time I've seen that, it's been in replay to some incendiary post that you've made, often from out of the blue.
And as many of us have often observed ... you are certainly always right! We've noticed, you really do know it all.


... but even MY sphincter snaps shut when you go on one of your rants.
I'm certain that not everybody feels the same as you ... and if that's how you feel, then don't read my posts. Problem with your sphincter ... solved.

I don't think I have ever seen you type Israel - they're "Zionists".
If I'm writing about the "Zionists", the political movement ... then I use that word.

If I'm writing about some of my friends visiting Israel, then I use "Israel". If I'm discussing people I know in Israel, I use that word.

If I'm discussing how IDF soldiers are refusing to follow Zionist orders and kill Palestinians while serving in the occupied territories, I use the "Zionist" word.

How dumb do you take people for? More and more are beginning to open their eyes about the Zionists. A lot of us are smart enough to know that not all of Israel is totally behind what the "Zionists" are up to. If I'm discussing something the "Zionists" are doing, I use that word. Don't like it? Then skip over my posts.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 94
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History
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 1/31/2015 6:12:17 PM
@cotter:

And as many of us have often observed ... you are certainly always right! We've noticed, you really do know it all.

Do I believe what I say, when I say it? Yes - absolutely. I've no doubt that comes across when I write. But I also pay attention to what others say - I look at the links they post, even if I think they'll be bullkaka - because you never know what you can learn, from who, or when. It's how you learn. I doubt I'd be doing that if I thought I knew everything already.

Don't like it? Then skip over my posts.

I was raised to believe that the only person you can't learn from is the person you don't listen to - regardless of how painful it may sometimes be.

Look - I don't have a problem with your beliefs - some I tend to agree with, most I disagree with. That's life - you have the right to believe what you want, and I have the same. My issue - and my ONLY issue - is how you express them. I've said this before - if you toned down your rhetoric a bit and cut out the snide insults in your postings, what you write would be easier to understand, your points would be much more clearly made, and you might even convince others that you have a point. That way, everybody wins. It's just very hard to take you seriously, or wade through your posts, in search of the occasional point. God knows how many points you've made that I and others have missed because our eyes glazed over trying to wade through your screeds. It doesn't help you, and it doesn't help us.

This is the last post I'll make on this topic - if you haven't gotten the point by now, it's unlikely you ever will - and everybody looses.
 Strings6
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 95
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History
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 2/1/2015 5:02:10 AM
Come on folks,lets admit that the majority of humanity hates anyone who is different from them,dump the excuses,justification,self righteousness,my hate is better than your hate BS and the tit for tat anecdotes...people hate people and like the tee shirt I saw once says "Hell is other people" indeed it is....this is like some kind of ugliest pretty girl contest.
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 96
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 2/1/2015 7:22:07 AM

If I'm writing about the "Zionists", the political movement ... then I use that word.

If I'm writing about some of my friends visiting Israel, then I use "Israel". If I'm discussing people I know in Israel, I use that word.

If I'm discussing how IDF soldiers are refusing to follow Zionist orders and kill Palestinians while serving in the occupied territories, I use the "Zionist" word.

How dumb do you take people for? More and more are beginning to open their eyes about the Zionists. A lot of us are smart enough to know that not all of Israel is totally behind what the "Zionists" are up to. If I'm discussing something the "Zionists" are doing, I use that word. Don't like it? Then skip over my posts.


Garbage, which Zionist movement are you talking about? There is even a Green Zionist Party in Israel who advocate an environmentally friendly Israel.It is glaringly obvious that you substitute the word "Zionist" for Jews to try and disguise your anti-seminism.

Zionist movements have existed for 100 years and guess what ? They are Jewish.

Then you make up BS like "the Zionists stole Palestinian land" much better than saying "the Jews stole Palestinian land"

Gee any Zionist movement generally are just advocating that Jews have their own homeland so they can achieve their own self-determination and guess what? They are Jewish.

You are not smart enough to realise how complicated the Israel/Palestine conflict is. All you can do is just spew disguised vitriol which really translates to "Jews just kill Palestinians for no reason" or "the Jews stole Palestinian land"

Carry on though your raving lunatic rants are highly amusing.

Must be a sad place to be so Intellectually Dishonest and not even realise it.
 calguy14
Joined: 8/17/2014
Msg: 97
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 2/1/2015 8:27:41 AM
@cotter
Of course you have Israelis that disagree with battling Palestinians just like America had Vietnam war protesters.Right from the start there were Jews that had every intention of living peacefully alongside arabs,but soon found this unworkable due to agitators on both sides.Some Zionists understood that only a hard line was workable...and may have aided and abetted Palestinians to shape opinion amongst the general population.Its done and they won't risk security going backwards.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 98
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 2/1/2015 8:51:13 AM

Gee any Zionist movement generally are just advocating that Jews have their own homeland so they can achieve their own self-determination and guess what? They are Jewish.

You write something like that... and you have the gall to call others intellectually dishonest...? And then claim it all to be "antisemitism"...? You are some piece of work...

It was the Zionist movement that advocated Israel NOT stop at the Jordan River in '67... but keep going and steal western Jordan to reclaim that part of "Greater Eretz Yisrael"... The west put a stop to that one...

It was the Zionist movement that wanted to steal the Sinai... for "Greater Eretz Yisrael"...

It was the Zionist movement that wanted the Golan to be annexed... for "Greater Eretz Yisrael"... This time they got their wish... and the Golan was stolen...

It was the Zionist movement that set up settlements on stolen Palestinian land in Gaza... for "Greater Eretz Yisrael"... and raised a big stink over having to give it back... They almost got their way on this one... at least as far as colonizing it... even if they had to give it back...

It is the Zionist movement that started the colonization of the West Bank on stolen Palestinian land... for "Greater Eretz Yisrael"...

It was the Zionist movement that wanted to steal Lebanese land south of the Litani... for "Greater Eretz Yisrael"... except the Lebanese had other ideas...
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 99
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 2/1/2015 11:54:59 AM
Thousands of years ago, a tiny kingdom in the area now known as China, was invaded by its neighbors, and lost. In a few hundred years, the original kingdom and the new kingdom were one country, with the name and manners of the original. That was essentially China's method of growth--get conquered, assimilate the winners. As late as WWII, Chinese generals were of the opinion that getting conquered by the Japanese wouldn't be so bad: it would mean the end of Japan.

Russia grew in a similar manner, except that it won each time. And then went for a buffer zone beyond. Portugal, France, Spain and England, being a bit more land bound, traveled quite long distances and committed some pretty large atrocities on native populations in order to gather new resources to stay alive as a nations. A number of England's colonies either under the mantle of the motherland (Canada, Australia) or broken free (the U.S.) proceeded within their own "borders" to use up and spit out the natives.

I have a *very* difficult time seeing how what the Zionists desire differs from our Manifest Destiny, save for the fact that the Israelis have been a good bit gentler than we have been. AND the fact that we sat on our hands as Germany attempted to destroy every last human being that it could define as Jewish. I once was allowed to stand on the steps of the U.S. capitol on Remembrance Day and read the names of everyone in a small Polish village. It was only about 6 or 7 hundred names. No one in that village survived. Not mother, not child, not grandmother, not grandfather, no brother, no sister, uncle, aunt, or newborn lived through that Holocaust. None.

What Israel and/or the Zionists are doing/have done does NOT resemble what we allowed to be done to them. What we have done to our own Native Peoples. I can't say the situation is being handled well by anyone involved: not the Israelis, not the Palestinians. But I also don't think that laying blame and claiming that no one's trying is useful.

I, personally, think we owe the Israelis until the end of time. And I think it's fey to claim we didn't know. We did. And we sent back those who had escaped to die rather than offer them sustenance inside our golden door. I was an adult with a child of my own before the Catholic Church admitted that the Jews as a whole were NOT responsible either then nor now for the death of Christ. [1965, Nostra Aetate]

I read Malcolm Hay's Europe and the Jews in my teens. It's still around, has been a bit revised and is a must read for anyone to whom this issue is important. http://www.amazon.com/Europe-Jews-Pressure-Christendom-People/dp/0897333594

Full disclosure: I'm not Jewish enough that Hitler would have bothered with me, although for the first five years of my life his breath poisoned the air of the planet I live on. I have one great grandmother who was Jewish--whose children were so ashamed they claimed she was Amish. (Norwegian, Laplander, English, Irish, Scots, German Jew, French, and Iroquois--Cayuga)
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 100
Freedom of Speech?
Posted: 2/1/2015 1:19:48 PM

I have a *very* difficult time seeing how what the Zionists desire differs from our Manifest Destiny,...

As you should... Manifest Destiny... and the subsequent "infantilization" of Native Americans... was every bit as wrong as the Zionist pursuit of "Greater Eretz Yisrael" and the marginalization (and in some ways "infantilization") of the Palestinians... and in many ways very much bloodier... except... that difference doesn't make either of them morally correct... unless... of course... your point was to assert Manifest Destiny... and... by extension... the pursuit of "Greater Eretz Yisrael"... as being morally correct...

The existence of our own "demons" in that regard... does not... however... justify the exception of the Zionist pursuit of "Greater Eretz Yisrael" from criticism... Nor does American... and generally western... inaction regarding Nazi killing of Jews... justify that pursuit...

I'm sure you were raised with pithy little sayings like... "two wrongs don't make a right"... and... "Just because Suzie did it doesn't make it OK for you to do it too"... Sometimes... the trite little homilies of our childhood contain the greatest and most fundamental of truths...
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