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 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 301
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address CongressPage 13 of 17    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)

But however true, in the end to me it does not make a difference. Egypt massing armies on Israel’s border was an unacceptable risk to Israel. Even if it believed that Egypt had little chance of actually attacking and/or winning the war, there is no reason Israel should have taken the chance of a bad outcome, which of course would have been a massacre of the Israeli people

And that's fine... as far as it goes... which is no further than you... but Israel is not an individual... Israel is a nation within a community of nations... and IS obligated to the same international laws as every other nation... As a point of trivia... nations which consider themselves above the laws of the community of nations are usually called "rogue states"...

Israel has the same inviolable right to it's sovereignty as any other nation within the bounds of it's internationally recognized legal and legitimate borders... And it has the same right to defend itself within the customary laws of war as any other nation... Same laws and rules as anybody else... Not "below the law"... and not "above the law"...

None of that includes starting an admitted war of aggression to "send a message"... None of that includes starting an admitted war of aggression, lying about the pretext, and then stating "Oh... Well we could have started it for this reason instead and had a pretty good case, and even though we didn't do that, that makes it ok"...

Let me illustrate it on an individual level... rather than national... using a criminal assault in place of a war of aggression...

You're walking down the street... some stranger is walking several feet behind you, scowl on his face, mumbling unintelligibly... every time you stop, he walks a circle around you and then stops where you have to walk around him when you start walking again... this goes on for several blocks... he's not actually touched you at any point... you shoot him to wound, to "send a message" even though you aren't really scared of him... when you call the police to report it, you claim he attacked you and insist on this point while he insists he never touched you and that you shot him for no good reason... when the police show you footage that shows he never touched you but was acting in a way that could be legitimately construed as menacing, you claim you were afraid he would attack, that you only made the first claim because you were scared, stressed and confused... The police release you on grounds of self-defence... Days later, you are publicly recorded bragging that you never really were afraid of him... never really thought he would attack you... but you wanted to "send a message"...

What are the odds that you will be re-arrested, charged and tried... and likely convicted...?

And Egypt proved just a few years later in 73 that it was no pushover. It came close to winning that war on a conventional weapons basis.

Yeah... There's something about that too... Israel deliberately chose not to attack pre-emptively... Golda... was emphatic on this point... because she was certain that Israel would need US assistance... and that assistance would NOT be forthcoming if Israel attacked first... even in a CLEAR pre-emption...
In fact Golda is quoted saying exactly that...

"When the presentations were done, the prime minister hemmed uncertainly for a few moments but then came to a clear decision. There would be no preemptive strike. Israel might be needing American assistance soon and it was imperative that it would not be blamed for starting the war. 'If we strike first, we won't get help from anybody', she said."

Abraham Rabinovich, The Yom Kippur War, 2005

Now why do you suppose she would be SO convinced of that... It would have been a clear act of pre-emption... fully justified under international law... If it weren't for the legacy of having started one war of aggression... lying about it... and then bragging about how they got away with it in recorded interviews....?
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 302
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/5/2015 8:32:15 PM
Oh yes... and there is this... I almost forgot...

Lying to the UN of course, especially today, is meaningless given the state of that body and its anti-Israel bias.

All that stuff I've written... about lying and changing rationales was known to the UN... and the interviews as well...

Would you really expect them to be extra trusting with a nation that started a war, lied about it, and then pretty much bragged in interviews about how it had "punked" everybody...?

You don't think that might lead to some pretty difficult barriers to have to climb over to earn trust back...?
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 303
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 8:08:29 AM
I think the UN caters to its membership, which by and large does not like Israel because it sees what you see . . . . the oppression in the occupied territory. From the Israeli viewpoint, they for the most part do not believe that they can rely on anybody but themselves for their own survival, not even the US. They know they are in this alone for the most part.

Don't forget Israel's founders were Holocaust survivors who saw the world ignoring their plight. Heck, the US didn't even take the time to bomb the damn death camps because of "scarce" resources and having higher priority targets. The US also had a policy of refusing Jewish refugees entry in the country when they were trying to escape German persecution, al la MS St. Louis, Exodus, etc.

Israel long ago decided it had to rely only on itself to survive. Nobody else was going to fight for it or die trying to save it. And Israel has fought all of its own battles since 1948.

I do not concede, having not done the research, about the lies you claim it told the UN. But again, the UN is worthless in the scheme of things. Israel's goal is to survive. And it has done the best it can in doing so. It had no duty to the UN. Its duty was to its people . . to see them through another attempted holocaust.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 304
view profile
History
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 9:47:35 AM
Message 304 ...
As for how well Israel handles it's internal issues, everything it does is to prevent terrorist attacks against its public.
That is not true and you know it.

You have obviously been indoctrinated to believe that and that's understandable. You are a product of your environment. You have a choice to continue to believe your indoctrination or not ... just as any indoctrinated religious nut-bar has a choice to keep believing the crap that they were force fed ... or a person can actually choose to seek the truth.


No other country faces the threats it faces ...
Israel's own behavior brings on any threats it faces. If someone lobs a bomb at them, there is no logical reason on the face of this earth to go kill an entire family. However, that's how Israel reacts. One of my sisters is a total religious loon! I have little or no contact with her by HER choice. If she runs out and does something illegal and outrageous as some religious and as we have seen, some political nuts do ... I do not expect to be killed for it! But the Zionists go in and do that.

On the other hand, I guarantee you that even if they do find the illegal settlers who burned that home down and killed that baby, they will barely get a slap on the hand. Will Israel hunt down their entire family and kill them? Will those families be expelled from the community ... will they be sent back to where ever the hell they came from ... will they be banned from living in Israel? We all know the answer!

Whether you like it or not, it looks like they are just looking for excuses to kill Palestinians.


... so it believes it necessary to do what it does for self protection.
And you really believe that?

There is a good reason why so many IDF's are going to jail instead of serving in The Occupied Territories. They are going to jail instead of having to subject themselves to the unethical killing/treatment of innocents. If you deny that, then I will know for sure you are in total denial of what is going on.


Ex-IDF Soldiers Endorse Refusing Army Service, in Letter to Washington Post - 51 former soldiers, some of them reservists, declare: 'We now refuse to participate in our reserve duties, and we support all those who resist being called to service.’

(Excerpt)"The Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are deprived of civil rights and human rights. They live under a different legal system from their Jewish neighbors. This is not exclusively the fault of soldiers who operate in these territories. Those troops are, therefore, not the only ones obligated to refuse. Many of us served in logistical and bureaucratic support roles; there, we found that the entire military helps implement the oppression of the Palestinians

By law, some of us are still registered as part of the reserved forces (others have managed to win exemptions or have been granted them upon their release), and the military keeps our names and personal information, as well as the legal option to order us to ‘service.’ But we will not participate — in any way.”

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/beta/1.606871


Another thing ...
How do you justify actual Palestinian towns within Israeli borders being denied water? If you can justify that ... you are in denial.

How do you justify Palestinians who have been denied building permits to upgrade their homes while jews get all the permits and supplies they want ... ON THE SAME STREET? How do you justify that kind of treatment? If you can justify that ... you are in denial.

You are typically a product of your environment and the propaganda you have been fed all your life.

I am a member of the local jewish center. I work out with and socialize with jews who also attend there. I perform in musicals with jews who are members there. I have political discussions with them all the time and they tell me they are ashamed of what the Zionists are doing.

I take care of people who live in their multi-tiered housing community from independent living to hospice. My patients love me. We care about each other. I am NOT an anti-semite.

You don't know me and yet you are vile to me and treat me like scum. That is the same way other Zionists in here treat anyone who questions Israel's motives, anyone who criticizes tactics Israel uses on the Palestinians. Is that typical behavior for all Zionists? If so, I'm glad I don't have anything to do with any.

You are the bigot here ... not me.

Message 310 ...
From the Israeli viewpoint, they for the most part do not believe that they can rely on anybody but themselves for their own survival, not even the US.
That is total BS and you know it. How the hell much more should the US do to support Israel? How much more war do we have to take on for the sake of the Zionists?

They have lied to us for decades about their nuclear arms and yet we still send them billions in weapons and goods and support. How the hell much more should we give them? Are you so ignorant that you don't see that THAT level of greed is unconscionable when we have people starving here or unable to afford medical care? They do not need our billions to survive yet they take it and take it and want more! That's just unconscionable.

... to see them through another attempted holocaust.
Oh brother ... more drama queen BS! Nobody wants to kill the jews ...

They need to remember the rest of the world is watching ... very closely. They are quite obviously misbehaving when it comes to their treatment of the Palestinians and the world sees it. How do you expect the world to sympathize in any way with Israel when they continue to suppress those people.

It's time to stop it ... NOW.

No other country in the world has so many UN resolutions against it ... for bad behavior. Israel has been mistreating the Palestinians for decades ... has been lying to the rest of the world for decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

Nuttinbutayahoo has no right to dictate to the US or any other countries in the world who put so much effort into the Iran nuclear deal. None of them had to do that. If the US and those other countries didn't care about Israel, they could have just let Iran get the bomb and do what they want with it.

Frankly, I'm not sure where I stand with that yet. I believe the aggressive nature of the Zionists is a direct threat to Iran and other countries over there and I am a firm believer that other countries have a right to protect themselves from the Zionists. All we have to go on is the past behavior of the Zionists and that is not good ... not at all.
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 305
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 10:04:16 AM
^^^^^^ What I know is it is a difficult situation when you are surrounded by enemies and rockets from all sides that have been trying to destroy you since your creation. You act as if the people of Israel should be immune to the constant wars, threats and acts of violence and should simply agree to lay down and die. In real life, that is not the way it works and YOU KNOW THAT.

So what do you suggest Israel do to ensure its survival in as terrorist free an environment as possible. Since we know it is not going to voluntarily disappear . . . just what would you suggest it do differently than it has been doing?

You are far too biased and one sided in your outlook to possibly see anything from Israel's side. Israel builds a fence to cut down on Terrorism, and you claim it is to deprive the Palestinians from more land and rights and to oppress them. You offer diatribes as if Israel does not want true peace but wants to go on occupying the territories so it can have fun oppressing its inhabitants.

And no, my opinion is that EVERYTHING Israel does is to protect its people. Could somethings be done differently or better? Sure. There is plenty of room for improvement. But when it is the goal of one side to kill off the other side no matter what . . . I really have trouble sympathizing with their point of view. I feel bad for the innocents of course, especially the Children. But the leaders over there need to get their act together . . need to revise the Charter and need to work towards peace and not Israel's destruction.

Arafat was the worst thing that happened to them. He is the one responsible for creating this culture of terror that now infects all decisions over there. He is the one that arrogantly turned down a very good peace deal because he refused to negotiate and compromise on anything at all.

And you have mentioned the water issue repeatedly. Just Google it and stop with the crappola about how they are dying of thirst over there.
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 306
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 10:52:27 AM
Aid to Israel:



Through the years, Israel has been the biggest recipient of U.S. foreign assistance, Face the Facts USA said, with more than $185 billion in military and economic aid received since 1946.

Outside of Israel, from 1946-2010, the U.S. gave Egypt the most money, $114 billion, with Iraq next at $59 billion. Pakistan, at $52 billion, and Afghanistan at $49 billion round out the Top 5 U.S. aid recipients in the region.

Other countries receiving more than $1 billion over those same 65 years include Iran at $13 billion, Lebanon at $3.4 billion, Syria at $2.2 billion, and Yemen at $2.1 billion. Bahrain also received $538 million in U.S. said over that same time period.

On a per capita basis, the contrast of U.S. aid to Israel compared to other nearby nations grows even sharper. According to Factsandlogic.org, the U.S. gives Israel $378 per capita, with Afghanistan and Egypt receiving $63 and $17 per capita, respectively. Other aid recipients in the region, Pakistan and Nigeria, each receive about $5 per capita.


Amount spent so far on the war against terrorism in the Middle East:



War Costs to Date. Total War Funding: $1.64 trillion has been allocated through the Overseas Contingency Operations (war) fund, including $73.3 billion in fiscal year 2015. Iraq: $817.8 billion has been allocated for the war in Iraq since 2003, including an estimated $1.0 billion in fiscal year 2015.


Seems to me that the money spent to help secure Israel's defenses is money well spent given the nature of the Muslim extremists who are hell bent on taking over the West and the World.


You don't know me and yet you are vile to me and treat me like scum. That is the same way other Zionists in here treat anyone who questions Israel's motives, anyone who criticizes tactics Israel uses on the Palestinians. Is that typical behavior for all Zionists? If so, I'm glad I don't have anything to do with any.


I have treated you no differently than you have treated me. If you want to receive respect, you give respect. That is not something we don't already know.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 307
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 12:02:36 PM

Israel builds a fence to cut down on Terrorism, and you claim it is to deprive the Palestinians from more land and rights and to oppress them.

When the fence is built on the Palestinian's land... and segregates portions of that land for the exclusive use of settler's from the occupier's people... land to which they have NO legal and legitimate ownership rights... es[ecially when that land was illegaly siezed as part of the drive towards expanding Israel towards establishing more of "Greater Eretz Yisrael"... You have NO basis for claiming that it doesn't illegally deprive the Palestinians of land and lawful rights... NONE...

Israel even tried to seize parts of Lebanon... IN THIS CENTURY... and when they were told to "get out"... they actually made the public claim that they were entitled to keep part of it as "historical Israel" for crying out loud...

I think the UN caters to its membership,

OF COURSE IT DOES... THAT is what it exists for, for crying out loud... The membership ARE the ones who make the decisions and determinations... The membership IS the UN...

which by and large does not like Israel because it sees what you see

Gee... After the lies... and the unlawful landgrabs in violation of the VERY PRINCIPLES for which the UN was formed... and the absolute refusal to abide by ANY UN resolutions requiring Israel to reverse it's unlawful activities... I "wonder" why...?

So what do you suggest Israel do to ensure its survival in as terrorist free an environment as possible.

I expect Israel to follow all the civilized laws to which it is bound as a civilized nation... Israel isn't "above the masses" any more than it is "below the masses"... no matter how much right-wing Zionists and "Christians for Israel" want to believe it is... It isn't a "sacred cow" and it isn't "the goose that laid the golden egg"... It is a nation among nations with no greater status...

Don't forget Israel's founders were Holocaust survivors who saw the world ignoring their plight.

Most of Israel's founders have passed on... Modern Israel is in no danger of being "wiped off the face of the earth"... and EVERYBODY... including the Israelis... KNOWS IT...
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 308
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 12:34:55 PM

Most of Israel's founders have passed on... Modern Israel is in no danger of being "wiped off the face of the earth


With nuclear proliferation, wish I could agree with you. I expect Iran to have the bomb within the decade if not sooner. Iran has vowed to take Israel out
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 309
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 1:10:52 PM

With nuclear proliferation, wish I could agree with you. I expect Iran to have the bomb within the decade if not sooner. Iran has vowed to take Israel out

And that justifies Israel's continued land seizures... the continued violation of the international and humanitarian rights of the Palestinians... in what way...

And if you TRULY believe that Iran would commit nuclear suicide... by it's certain destruction from Israeli nukes... just to attempt such a thing... you have learned nothing from history and have no rational, reasonable or factual knowledge of Iranian culture or politics...
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 310
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 1:46:39 PM
I would like to think they were rational. Obama is certainly relying on that. But the leader is a fundamentalist who believes martyr ism is the way to Nirvana. I am not so sure he or his replacement would not risk nuclear annihilation to take Israel out.

Israel is not "seizing" more land. It is building settlements in the occupied territory which is land it already seized. Like I said, if the PLA (I still think this acronym apt) amends its charter to allow for Israel's existence and works towards peace, that can all be worked out. Israel gave up all settlements for peace with Egypt. I have no doubt it would do so for peace with the Palestinians . . but I think nobody expects the Palestinians have any interest in peace. I wonder if that is because its charter still calls for Israel's destruction.

Both sides need to be working towards peace. A fair compromise is one in which nobody is happy with the agreement. Arafat had that in his hand. The only thing Israel was not going to give up was Jerusalem . . but the Palestinians would have had open access to the city and their own control over part of the city. Arafat turned down the deal. Not over the 2% of the West Bank that Israel would maintain control over, but over his refusal to concede Israel had any right to any land to begin with . .i.e. . . . Israel had no right to exist.

Israel is not going to Negotiate itself out of existence and that is what the PLA demands, along with Hamas and everybody else. Terrorist bombings and rocket attacks into civilian populations by the terrorists are a violation of human rights too. When do they stop?
 congupnaroad
Joined: 7/22/2015
Msg: 311
view profile
History
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 2:06:40 PM

Another thing....
How do you justify actual Palestinian towns within Israeli borders being denied water? If you can justify that...you are in denial


It is you that are in denial of the facts!



To the extent that a viable water supply infrastructure exists in the West Bank, it is because Israel built and maintained it. While this infrastructure was certainly constructed, in part, to service Israeli communities, its benefits have not been denied to the Palestinians, and no one familiar with the statistics involved can claim otherwise without being patently dishonest.
That Israel is so consistently blamed for this problem is especially problematic because it makes it less likely that the Palestinians will deal with it themselves. As shown above, the Palestinians have the ability to both live up to their obligations under international law and solve their existing water problems in doing so. The money, technology, and knowledge they need all exist and are available to them from both foreign and Israeli sources. That the Palestinians have either chosen not to avail themselves of such aid or cannot do so effectively due to internal problems is tragic, but it is not the fault of the State of Israel


thetower.org

But hey just discredit the source of the above information and keep perpetrating the myths you believe to justify why you hate Jews so much!
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 312
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 2:09:47 PM

It is building settlements in the occupied territory which is land it already seized.



I'm sorry... but that assertion as a defense is completely ludicruous... Every settlement they build is a "land seizure" and this ludicruous attempt to "explain it away" by saying "but they already occuoy the land" is simply without logical or rational defense...

Israel DOES NOT have the right to build settlements on ANY occupied land... IT IS A WAR CRIME... and NO nation has a "right" to commit war crimes...

I have no doubt it would do so for peace with the Palestinians . .

Nonsense... Israel is already on record as adamantly refusing to give up any of the remaining settlements it has established on the remaining occupied lands... It has clearly and publicly stated that it will not do so under any circumstances... even to obtain a peace deal... AND it continues to authorize settlements on occupied land TO THIS DAY to bring that point home...

Israel is not going to Negotiate itself out of existence and that is what the PLA demands

Nonsense... utter nonsense...
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 313
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 2:13:03 PM
They already have agreed to give up most of the settlements for peace. See the site I just quoted in my new thread. The bottom line is and has always been the Palestinian leadership has never wanted Peace with Israel. They want Israel gone. How do you deal with that type of intransigence? I give the PLA an A+ in Tenacity, but an F- in competence.
 shirleywonton01
Joined: 4/30/2015
Msg: 314
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 2:18:39 PM
With all due respect Congupnaroad, cotter has issues with the Israeli government not the people at large. She is not a Jew hater. We read about the war atrocities committed by the Israelis on the Palestinians daily in the media. We also read about the suicide bombers. Which came first? Who is mostly at fault? That is the question that is covered by a corrupt media. In the USA we can no longer trust our media, it's simply gone rogue which is causing untold chaos and misunderstandings.

Most importantly our economy is going to hell in a handbag yet we give billions to Israel? This is creating a great deal of resentment in Americans towards the Israelis. They don't need to accept the money but still choose to do so.

I have huge issues with the Chinese government and even more with North Korea. And I feel deep compassion for the innocent people of these countries.

Why can't someone disagree with the Israeli government without being called names?
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 315
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 2:20:44 PM

They already have agreed to give up most of the settlements for peace.

Most...? MOST...?

I hate to break this to you... but an agreement that states "We will give you peace only if you legitimize our war crimes" is NOT a "deal"... and it is NOT a "peace offering... It is NOT anything short of coercion and intimidation...

NO nation has a right to demand that it's war crimes be legitimized as a condition of peace...
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 316
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 2:26:29 PM
^^^^ So essentially you are saying there will never be peace because the PLA should never agree to any peace terms and therefore, the war of terror goes on. Fine. That is what has been happening. And people will continue to die, and the Palestinians, who have been dealt the losing hand that they continue to hold on to at all costs, will continue to suffer.

You say they are rational . . . but how rational have they really been? Why have they not sought peace despite having so many opportunities for the same. There is only one possible explanation . . . and that is destroying Israel is more important to them than peace. What other possible explanation can you have?

Negotiation is all about compromise. The Palestinians have refused to compromise one iota. They brought these problems on to themselves and must live with the consequences.
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 317
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 2:52:40 PM
I will say this, it is very difficult to get a handle on whether preemption in 67 was really necessary. There is so much propaganda and outright lying on the web. That is why I will continue searching for the original source documents that states all of the things Israeli leaders purportedly said about their decision to attack in 67. Here is somebody who has a different take than you, actually the exact opposite of what you said.

http://www.e-ir.info/2014/03/16/pre-emption-and-israeli-decision-making-in-1967-and-1973/


Given the scale of its impact, it is crucial to analyse the Israeli decision to strike pre-emptively in June 1967. Although regional factors, as well as the international political climate, did play a considerable role in both decisions, this essay will argue that two domestic factors made it necessary for Israel to favour a pre-emptive strike in June 1967. A climate of fear for the survival of the Israeli state was amplified by the economic crisis and social divisions of the 1960s, which led to an over-estimation of Israeli vulnerability and a widespread anticipation of Arab aggression. Additionally, Israel’s lack of strategic depth, combined with the structure of its military, made it very difficult for Israel to absorb a first strike. Ultimately, Israeli decision-makers felt that they had no choice but to pre-empt in June 1967. By October 1973, the situation was radically transformed. Israeli leaders decided against pre-emption because they felt that the survival of the Israeli state was not at stake, due to their overwhelming military self-confidence and new-found strategic depth. With the post-Six Day War borders and political climate, pre-emption could not be justified as essential for the survival of the Israeli state. Prime Minister Golda Meir thus rejected the pre-emptive option, deciding to protect Israel’s reputation and political alliances at the expense of a short-term military advantage.


Here is one original source document from the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/5/newsid_2654000/2654251.stm


Fighting broke out on the Israel-Egypt border but then quickly spread to involve other neighbouring Arab states with ground and air troops becoming embroiled in battle.

Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol said in a statement that the Egyptian Air Force had taken a great beating and Jordanian and Syrian air forces had been largely destroyed.

The attack follows a build-up of Arab military forces along the Israeli border.

The Arab states had been preparing to go to war against Israel with Egypt, Jordan and Syria being aided by Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria.

On 27 May the President of Egypt, Abdel Nasser, declared: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."

Egypt signed a pact with Jordan at the end of May declaring an attack on one was an attack on both. This was seen by Israel as a clear sign of preparation for all-out war.


I think these words, obviously actually spoken by Nasser, are pretty hard to ignore:

On 27 May the President of Egypt, Abdel Nasser, declared:


Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."


So Israel went to war to defend itself . . . . and you suggest it is a war crime to have done so? Or was it simply a war crime to have not withdrawn from all of the territory it kept . . for security purposes?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 318
view profile
History
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 3:45:06 PM
Message 315 ...
I expect Iran to have the bomb within the decade if not sooner.
Again, given the aggressive nature of the Zionists, it seems to me other countries deserve to have the capacity to protect themselves from the Zionists. They are not behaving in a way that extracts much sympathy from any of their neighbors.

They illegally seize land from the Palestinians on a regular basis, they recklessly murder Palestinians as if they were swatting flies. They confiscate Palestinian water and re-direct it to the illegal settlements. They wall off areas that belong to the Palestinian farmers and then do not allow them to cross into their territory or land to work their fields.

Israel has lied to the rest of the world for decades and misrepresented themselves to the extent that it's extremely difficult for people to find any compassion for the situation they have created for themselves. They have not tried to make peace and Nuttinbutayahoo said as long as he remains Israel's leader, a Palestinian state would not be established. Now I suppose you're also going to deny that?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/on-final-day-of-campaign-netanyahu-says-no-palestinian-state-if-he-wins/2015/03/16/4f4468e8-cbdc-11e4-8730-4f473416e759_story.html
Netanyahu says no Palestinian state if he wins

By William Booth March 16

JERUSALEM — On the final day of his reelection campaign, Benjamin Netanyahu said that as long as he serves as prime minister of Israel, there will not be an independent Palestinian nation.

His declaration marks the second time in a month that Netanyahu has chosen to confront Washington directly: first by opposing, in a speech before Congress, President Obama’s possible deal to try to curtail Iran’s nuclear ambitions and now by opposing a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which Secretary of State John F. Kerry spent nine months pursuing.

Netanyahu’s assertion, made on camera to an Israeli news Web site, appeared to reverse the prime minister’s previous declarations of support for a sovereign Palestinian state.
That sounds pretty clear to me.


Iran has vowed to take Israel out
So if you find that unacceptable (and it appears that you do), do you also find it unacceptable that Israel has vowed to take other countries out? If not, wouldn't that be a double standard?

It's okay for Israel to threaten and terrorize their neighbors, but if a Palestinian throws a rock at an IDF tank, they take out half the town.

It's okay for Israel to secretly make nuclear weapons that basically endangers the whole Middle East, but other countries can't?

We're going to be inspecting Iran but no one ever goes to inspect Israel to see what they're up to? What's with that?

Message 317 ...
... a fundamentalist who believes martyr ism is the way to Nirvana.
I get so sick of such BS ... just like people keep talking about Muslim martyrdom with virgins as a reward. I don't know a single Muslim who has any idea what that stupid talk is all about, but it is definitely a way for anti-Muslims to make fun of other peoples' religious beliefs and an excellent way to hype the military personnel into hating the people they are supposed to be working with and making fun of them. (Idiots)

... risk nuclear annihilation to take Israel out.
I repeat ... no one wants to kill the jews. You've been listening to MEMRI again. It's already been established (a long time ago) that no Iranian said they want to wipe Israel off the map ... get a grip.

I have no doubt it would do so for peace with the Palestinians . . but I think nobody expects the Palestinians have any interest in peace
Try to keep up ... pay attention to the news. See above ... Nuttinbutayahoo already said he will not allow it.

Terrorist bombings and rocket attacks into civilian populations by the terrorists are a violation of human rights too. When do they stop?
I suppose you never thought about the idea that such attacks ("violations of human rights"?) as lobbing bombs or rockets could be in retaliation for what the Palestinians have been putting up with for decades?

I personally can't imagine having my family bulldozed into the dirt and not wanting to take some sort of action. I personally can't imagine having my baby burned to death and not wanting to take some sort of action. How many family members have you put in the grave because they were bulldozed to the ground? How many children have you put in the grave because some punk set your house on fire?
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 319
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 3:58:09 PM

Here is somebody who has a different take than you, actually the exact opposite of what you said.


The only problem with this... Is his view ASSUMES that pre-emption was the actual reason... This is a false assumption as proven by the RECORDED, PUBLIC words of ISRAEL'S OWN LEADERS and ISRAEL'S OWN ACTIONS in lying to the UN...

And as we ALL KNOW... ANY logical argument which is premised on false assumptions... is AUTOMATICALLY false in it's conclusions...

His argument ONLY works if you suspend reality and accept "what if" as a valid premise... Like... "What if" the Soviets had ACTUALLY launched a nuclear strike...

And your second quote fails on the same basis... AND because it DOES NOT ACTUALLY address the rational for starting the war... It MERELY regurgitates conditions...

Your "proof" proves absolutely nothing that you claim...

So Israel went to war to defend itself . . . .

And now you are repeating the same false logic as your articles do...

The words of ISRAEL'S OWN LEADERS... and their ACTUAL ACTIONS at the start... PROVE IT...

You can claim all the "skepticism" you want... your "skepticism" does not negate the available facts...

and you suggest it is a war crime to have done so?

It IS... in fact... a violation of international law to start a war of aggression under false pretenses... which Israel did... as proven by their own lies and the words of their own leaders...

Or was it simply a war crime to have not withdrawn from all of the territory it kept . . for security purposes?

The Israeli settlements in the occupied territories are... in fact... war crimes under international law... There is no "security purposes" exemption in international law that permits the settlement of the occupier's civilians in occupied territory...

It is interesting to note... that you reject the public facts... because you "choose not to believe"... while I have openly acknowledged them... including the fact that Israel could have gotten away with pre-emption if only the hadn't lied and then bragged about it after... and then use this rejection as the SOLE and ENTIRE basis underlying your argument... It speaks volumes...
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 320
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 4:49:01 PM
Assuming nasser spoke the words as quoted, that was more than enough justification for a preemptive strike. No reason to believe that newspaper article is not accurate since it was written contemporaneously with the start of the war. Nasser threatened. Israel responded. I simply do not believe Israel was not concerned about the Arabs striking first.

I am guessing, without further research, those purported pronouncements were blatant lies or misstatements of what was really said at the time. I am well acquainted with how facts are distorted and lies generated by those with an agenda. I see it all the time in my career. And the anti Israel passion is huge. It would be incredible to believe there were not a huge number of lies manipulating the facts to make it appear Israel had no right to attack.

You may truly believe what you are telling me. But I can almost guarantee you are relying on lies, myth and manipulation.
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 321
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 4:56:04 PM
That's why the actual source documentation is so important to get to the truth. I am not going to rely on some highly suspect author who has an anti Isreal bias, or some non-authoritative source. I need to see real proof, not one lie built on another.

You see what is happening here is it is important to Delegitimize Israel's initial attack to delegitimize entitlement to hold on to the occupied territories.. It is one lie built upon another lie built upon another lie. It gets to the point where people, like Cotter, actually believe somehow that Israel has not sought peace, despite the overwhelming legitimate evidence to the contrary.

In this case what we have is clear evidence of Nasser threatening Israel and massing armies on its border. How to handle this issue, simply lie and say Nasser never intended to attack, Israel knew it would not attack, and Israel knew the Arab armies were no threats. Such obvious manipulation, and you actually believe it.

D legitimize Israel's right to exist, D legitimize Israel's right to defend itself, ignore Israel's attempt to seek peace, blame it for everything that happens. Such obvious lies and manipulation
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 322
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 5:01:28 PM

Assuming nasser spoke the words as quoted, that was more than enough justification for a preemptive strike. No reason to believe that newspaper article is not accurate since it was written contemporaneously with the start of the war. Nasser threatened. Israel responded. I simply do not believe Israel was not concerned about the Arabs striking first.

And again... that is irrelevant... Israel LIED... Israel PUBLICLY bragged about how they "punked" everybody...

It's all recorded... It's all available...

I am guessing, without further research, those purported pronouncements were blatant lies or misstatements of what was really said at the time.

And your ONLY basis for rejecting it is that you simple CHOOSE not to believe...

You have not been able to disprove any of those facts without resorting to sites which make bigoted claims of "self-hating Jew"... claims which are as bigoted as anything you would find on Stormfront...

You may truly believe what you are telling me. But I can almost guarantee you are relying on lies, myth and manipulation.

And your rejection... based on a "choice not to believe"... even though you cannot disprove any of it... tells us just EXACTLY how much credibility to give your assertions...
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 323
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 7:43:21 PM
I choose not to believe without proof of what you say was said. Correct. You choose to believe without proof of what was said.

I have an advantage of a career where liars are ubiquitous and some professionals lie with abandon.

I will Change my mind if I see the videos or legitimate sources of what was said.

Regardless of where the truth lies regarding what was said after the fact, the only material truth was that given the massing of armies and the threats, Israel was well within its right to attack. This is an absolute, irrefutable truth you can not get around. No matter how much you protest, no matter how much you bring up these red herrings, lies to the UN, etc, with the known facts, Israel would have been nuts not to attack first. Irrefutable and unassailable truth.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 324
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 8:34:40 PM

I choose not to believe without proof of what you say was said.

But I gave you the citations... you just chose to ignore them...

I will Change my mind if I see the videos or legitimate sources of what was said.

Again... I gave you the citations... you simply refused to follow them up... to see if they were true...

When you refuse to follow up on evidence you are given... and simply reject it because of that refusal... that is an act of irrationality and is not the least bit reasoned or logical... and that too is a fact...

Regardless of where the truth lies regarding what was said after the fact, the only material truth...

Ah... so no matter what the actual factual truth is... the only "material truth" is what you declare it to be... And reason and actual real world facts are irrelevant...

I am very glad you told me that... They never taught us that in school... I was always told that facts and reason were more important... damn "liberal education"...
 tallish3243
Joined: 7/23/2015
Msg: 325
PM Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress
Posted: 8/6/2015 9:29:35 PM
No, only what is material is material. You argue these bullshit side issues, but I am guilty of allowing you to get away with it. So let me say this Cleary...whatever was purportedly said after the war started doesn't mean shit. The only important issue is israel was threatened with imminent attack and rightfully responded. You can't refute this so argue bullshit red herrings about lies to the un ad nauseum. Who gives a fuk. Irrelevant. Immaterial crap. Good try though in trying to delegetimize Israels absolute right to self defense.

That being said, I will take some time this weekend to see if your sources are legitimate. I will let you know unequivocally what I find about those sources. But the point is they mean shit. The ONLY IMPORTANT facts are the massed armies on Israel's borders and the threats of Israel demise. Fuk any other considerations.

You can't delegetimize Israel's right to self defense with bull dung. You can't legitimately claim it has no right to hold onto the occupied territories without a peace deal that the PLA won't give it.

From the very beginning, Israel has done nothing but defend itself from a relentless opponent who wants it destroyed. The Arabs are solely at fault for the present day circumstances.
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