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 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 326
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Independence VS InterdependancePage 14 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
Welcome back Vicki...been quiet around here without you... ;-)


Haha, well its a relief to know Im not playing games but I didnt say so at the begining because it does feel like Im testing them. Im not just asking them out of random interest. Im actually really guarded until I get a feel of what they are like and its not so much what they say as to how they say it. I also watch to see if it chances as your getting to know them. It kind of feels like I cant let my guard down until Im sure they are who they say they are and who they are is ok. A few people you can tell straight away that they are ok. I guess I pick up straight away if they are not ok thats probably why Im guarded. TBH I havent dated for about 10 months now and its all becoming a distant memory lol.


See for me, I really dislike that term, 'testing', as it has a negative connotation....
If you AREN'T being cautious when meeting ANY new people then you have boundary issues that need to be addressed....Do some people take that 'testing' over board?
Of COURSE!!

But we ALL are obligated to take care of OURSELVES, and if we don't, then we pay consequences.


. Oh and there is no need for the chat, women dont listen to what men say, they watch what they do.


Oh, how I WISH this was really true!!! lol....
Fell for a couple of smooth talkers myself when younger....And I know women my OWN age who STILL do!!!
It's a shame they haven't yet learned that bit of wisdom yet...


I agree Gatto, I guess this could be where the 'not good sex' comes into it. If your not really feeling it, why have sex. Not only is it leading the other person on but I dont see how its going to be good sex? Theres kind of like a cringe factor in there somewhere.


This falls into the 'just add water and mix' category for an "instant" relationship...

I think that's when people will have sex in the hopes that a 'maybe' MIGHT turn into a "Yes!", or they may think that a short-term prospect is better than nothing, and they haven't been laid in a while and, well, you know how it goes,....
Is it a good idea?
No...I don't think so at all....

But, it may serve to meet some needs , for the time being....

SHOULD people do that and NOT say that's what's going on?

Again, of COURSE they shouldn't.....I've done EXACTLY that, and have had it done to me, as well....and have been totally honest about it from the get-go....And I've actually had men say that they;d rather NOT, until/unless I change my mind...
Honesty IS the best policy and far from it not being acceptable to SAY that you may be interested in getting to know someone better, it IS the best way to go ime ....


Mostly I would agree Dee, but there have been times when Ive a bit vulnerable and not always in a good position to be able to pick up on it, hense the need for my friends. When I was in my teens I was niaive, but then I guess a lot of girls are. When I come out of a 23 year relationship, Id forgotten what the world was like,


And for me, that's how you learn that jumping into bed with someone that you're not 'sure' of, is NOT a good idea, especially if you're vulnerable....

I have a saying that I use, "When in doubt....DON'T!"....

Works really well with situations like this.....
If you want a relationship and the guy seems like he's perfect for you, well, he wouldn't want you to have sex with him for any other reason than that you WANT to with HIM, and are wholeheartedly THERE....I would think....
So for me, why do it if you AREN'T comfortable, that is NOT a good way to approach ANY kind of sex, imo...Even casual sex.


Im a little surprised because I think this is quite common and definately not specific to me, its also a lot worse since on line dating. I can tell the difference but I do still come up against this a lot.



Have I had many men in my Life who wanted to have sex with me? Yes.
What I said was that I don't assume that is ALL that they want, initially, at least until I get the lay of the land first...

Some men however are as subtle as a brick upside the head about their desire to "plough" you, and those are easy to spot even for the young and vulnerable...
But my own experiences with men who weren't interested in a casual sexual relationship with me when they wanted more, have demonstrated that not ALL men, want sex ALL of the time as a first priority.


Im not saying it as in 'Im a victim' poor me. Im saying it in a 'it is in the world and it does exist'. Not everyone can spot it and I would say its out there much more than when I was young. I would say its another one of those things that was once seen as 'not acceptable' that now appears to be 'acceptable' and I do feel this is a mans responsibility to step up and be a decent man. Its not just down to a woman to protect herself from 'unsavoury' men. Other men should be setting the standard and monitoring each others behaviour in much the same way as women do with each other.


Well in an ideal world....LOL

Point is this ISN'T an ideal world, and it is up to the individual, whether male or female to protect themselves.
That IS our 'job' as adults and human beings....
As far as acceptable?
I don't necessarily think that it's ever 'acceptable' to lie or deceive anyone at all....but it happens every day and yes, it seems the message is the you can do what you want in most walks of Life, and if you have the right name or enough money, you can get away with murder...Literally....
 GattoMonstrosis
Joined: 4/4/2013
Msg: 327
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Posted: 5/26/2015 5:58:25 AM

I would say its another one of those things that was once seen as 'not acceptable' that now appears to be 'acceptable' and I do feel this is a mans responsibility to step up and be a decent man.


Yes but as has been said only decent men are going to do that, and it's not the decent ones that you're protecting yourself against.

As for monitoring each others behaviour i'm not quite sure where you'd mean us to go with that, tell a d1ck that he's a d1ck? We do that anyway. Follow him around and tell his dates that he's a d1ck?
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 328
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Posted: 5/26/2015 6:16:25 AM
^^^^^^^^^

Besides...try telling a woman in "love" that her man is a d1ck...

At best she refutes it and doesn;t believe you...at worst she ends up thinking that YOU'RE the d1ck...LOL

That goes for men OR women, btw....

Have been in that position and even though the guy was acting like an ass, TO her, she still stuck with, "But I LOVE him"....after a month....so...

You know what they say about horses and water....

You can lead a horse to water.....

But you can't make him swim... ;-)

**Can I just say how fvcking annoying this whole 'not allowed to write, "dirty words" thing is on an adult forum?!?!?!? Geez! One of the MANY hypocrisies that really make me insane at times....
We can allow people to be eviscerated on a tv program, but God FORBID that we should say FVCK....LMAO
 GattoMonstrosis
Joined: 4/4/2013
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Posted: 5/26/2015 6:38:21 AM

Besides...try telling a woman in "love" that her man is a d1ck...

At best she refutes it and doesn;t believe you...at worst she ends up thinking that YOU'RE the d1ck...LOL


You'll cry at this one... I remember weeks of hours long conversations with a friend who had a stalker, not a boyfriend but a damn stalker, who had been blackmailing her into sex and emotionally torturing her for two years. I eventually talked her into calling his bluff and telling him what short pier to take a long run off of. Two months later she went back to him because she missed being that big a part of someones life.


**Can I just say how fvcking annoying this whole 'not allowed to write, "dirty words" thing is on an adult forum?!?!?!?


It is a bit like a chat show booking Ron Jeremy and asking him to only talk about knitting. :)
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
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Posted: 5/26/2015 6:56:26 AM
@Gatto...

Wish I could say that surprises and/or shocks me, but it doesn't....

Have seen that and worse...including a woman who was SO sick that she went back to a man who had been abusing her for YEARS, and finally he killed her.....

Just one more stat....because she had some fairy tale idea that if she just loved him ENOUGH, he would stop beating her within an inch of her Life....
Guess she never got the 'knack'....
What a tragic waste of a human Life....


It is a bit like a chat show booking Ron Jeremy and asking him to only talk about knitting. :)


LOL
 GattoMonstrosis
Joined: 4/4/2013
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Posted: 5/26/2015 7:06:48 AM

Just one more stat....because she had some fairy tale idea that if she just loved him ENOUGH, he would stop beating her within an inch of her Life....


Yeah, the Hollywood ending syndrome, that if you just hold on long enough then everything will magically work out.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 332
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/26/2015 9:26:48 AM
yep, meet "born victims" such as has been described above. just simply refused to be saved from their own stupid selves.

its the reason I tend to let some people just fall right on their ass in life. seems like pain is the only way they can "learn", and even that's not permanent. the question then becomes, "should I just get in line of the people taking advantage?"
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 333
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/26/2015 12:48:15 PM

but I didnt say so at the begining because it does feel like Im testing them.

Maybe you are but the way you described it sounds like you're not. I mean, you can "test" someone by asking them questions. Trick questions is playing games. Mere validation questions? No, that's not. It can be a mood killer and not good 'game' on your part (in a totally different context) -- but no, it's not "playing games with someone".

its just that if I have sex I generally enjoy it and Im not so fickle that silly things will put me off of someone. Im not exactly perfect myself so I generally take people for what they are, warts and all.

And the thing is, if you have sex "too early" -- you're equating it for "taking them for what they are, warts and all". I don't see this as a wise move. The latter is when you're in a Relationship with them. You've been going steady for a while and things have been in motion -- it's no longer awkward for some to call you and he BF/GF; things have been established. I think what some people do is think that SEX does the same thing -- and they cry foul if that person isn't interested in continuing things because they see Sex as an anchor. My response is -- don't have sex before a Relationship if that hurts you -- it's not the other's fault. If you were starting to see the guy but weren't BF/GF and he left, it's most likely no -- he didn't just want sex (because 'just sex and leave' people aren't going to camp out for umpteen dates while going officially or unofficially exclusive). But if it's within the first few getting-to-know-ya dates? Yeah, the sooner the more likely.

All in all, one shouldn't change their compatibility taste/tolerance just because they had sexual relations...and the guy can't expect the girl to do so either.

Also, Im a crap drinker, I like one or two in the evening but by 3-4 Im legless and either fall asleep or am sick.

Don't tell a first date you're suspicious of that - lol. He'll say "Okay, so you pass out after 3, get sick after 4. Okay. Here, let's just get you ONE more. Not the 4th though! We're going back to your place, right?" ;)

No no no no no! This should not be happening. Better prospects? If he knows he has better prospects then he needs to not have the sex, or at least be up front about the fact that hes unlikely to stay around afterwards.

I was referring to even just kissing in the parking lot and having a good time. Sex doesn't "change things" for everyone, any more than having a nice kiss and a good date, is my point. Sex isn't, nor should be treated as an anchor ("You HAVE to go out with me again! I know it was 'early', but we had sex! I got dibs!"). That's Your fault, not theirs, if that affects you don't at least lay it out that they HAVE to keep going out no matter what happens.

But after a good date & goodnight kiss -- one doesn't Know if they'll be ditched for a better option, or a better option comes along. Even after a good 1st date, by default, you're far from being Exclusive. You said in another part "What more would you want?" hitting it off on a 1st or 2nd date -- well, it's Early! And some people roll with things enjoyably, but at the same time, they're not going to ditch all their other prospects because one is good right now. Try dating attractive women or women who are found to be attractive on a dating site who have many options flying at them (even a low % they like is a lot) -- and Assuming that a good date or two means you're "in like Flynn". Rookie mistake -- I've been there. You think there was something you did thru convo after, or things said that made them question you but they went with the flow but later it sunk in a bit and they went with a better option -- or just merely they enjoy having great dates where kissing or more will occur while they're date-shopping.

In a nutshell -- no, when you're still in the date-shopping gear, seemingly hitting it off pretty well doesn't mean you ditch all other options - lol. Just because they're your #1 draft pick doesn't mean they see you that way at the end of day.

Because Im thinking if he then went from her to chat to others hes gona get dumped pretty quickly and wow, that seemed like a good thing going there. And he got dumped by her for????

First, NOBODY is "dumped" -- that's for people who have already established themselves as at least seeing each other. Second, he AND she is going to be talking with more than one person at once -- and having dates & potential dates lined up with more than one person within a given time frame. It's at least expected. Very few attractive picks are only going to be dealing with 1 person at 1 time when you've merely gone out on a few dates.

Bottom line: It's NOT assumed by default out of courtesy or dating culture that if you have a great date and/or get somewhat physical early on, that you're exclusive. SO many times guys will kick themselves for dropping other dating options because they're SO into "Hot Sally" and things seem to be going decent with her, but low and behold, "Hot Sally" has a lot of hot options and her interest wanes and she's then always busy and then blows him off. It takes TWO to tango. Unless you both Agree, that early on, to go Exclusive -- for one's own benefit for even not getting too wrapped up in someone you have the hots for, keep your options open until you Actually start seeing each other (outside of the imagination).
 GattoMonstrosis
Joined: 4/4/2013
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Posted: 5/26/2015 9:17:14 PM

That would only work if they did actually have better options in which case they should not be having the sex with hot sally?


Why should they not have sex though? If hot sally wants it and they want it and neither thinks it is a bargaining chip? Sure don't lead people on with it if the other person thinks that doing it definitely means something more, but if it happens as part of the getting to know you stuff and is just an enjoyable experience in and of itself then why not enjoy it as getting to know the person?
 GattoMonstrosis
Joined: 4/4/2013
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Posted: 5/27/2015 2:03:04 AM

Because you (not you personally or NG just the man) havent made up your mind if your into her or not because your still thinking you can do better hense the reasons for the other options.


I strongly disagree, since i think sex is important to physical intimacy it is also an important part of a relationship, not the most important sure but still a consideration, so i think an important part of making my mind up is to explore sexual compatability, i don't want to be in a relationship where one person is constantly frustrated, either being the frustrated one or the one doing the frustrating, having sex lays that to rest a lot better than abstractly talking about sex to my mind.
Don't have sex if i still think i can do better? What? Like the only thing on my mind is that i am horny and she'll just have to do since no one else is draping their panties over my head? Not every bloke thinks like that, just because i recognise that i want to have sex with someone doesn't mean that i just want something to go Splat, what it means to me is that i see something beyond what has already gone between us that i want to explore just as much, it's an extension of the mental and emotional connection, not a replacement for it.


Your kind of like settling in order to have sex which will likely result in not good sex or being fickle and finding things you dont like about her.


No i'm not, i'm having sex with someone to whom i am mutually attracted, if all i want is sex i could go out cruising instead of dating, i'd probably find a lot more of it at Torture Garden too if i could find some of my old Latex outfits. If as i said both parties want it and neither thinks it's a bargaining chip then sex is continuing the exploration. As for finding things i don't like about her, well isn't that the whole point of dating in the first place? Getting to know the other person, what you like about them, what you dislike, what you think might grow on you..? What you know you really can't put up with? Not having sex to avoid someone finding things not to like sounds too much like trickery.


Ive been on dates where I know straight away that Im not interested even if I dont have other options at the time I still wouldnt see that person again because Im not interested. I definately wouldnt have sex with them.


I didn't say not interested, i definitely did not say that.


Yes there are the men that would but I think they are the ones that just want sex and are a bit obvious. Not always but mostly.


Yeah but to be honest the way your comments read is that anyone who has sex before the relationship is carved in stone just wants sex, because they had sex. Separating sex from dating and pushing it into relationship only is fine and dandy for anyone that only wants sex to be part of a definite relationship but that doesn't work for everyone. Some people are more highly sexed than others with very different proclivities, some put more or less emphasis on sex in a relationship, if sex is conditional right from the start then i think there's often a tendency for the person with the widest ranging appetites to hide them or downplay them so as not to put the other person off. I think it is important to determine these things before investing everything in an end result with very wobbly foundations, because at some point they'll probably be the cause of breaking up.
I was talking to a lesbian friend a few months ago who told me she and her partner hadn't had sex in years, her partner was entirely happy with their relationship, the friend was entirely miserable, but they were in a committed relationship so...
 Behind-Blue-Eyes_53
Joined: 12/19/2011
Msg: 336
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/27/2015 2:06:55 AM

Im not saying it as in 'Im a victim' poor me. Im saying it in a 'it is in the world and it does exist'. Not everyone can spot it and I would say its out there much more than when I was young. I would say its another one of those things that was once seen as 'not acceptable' that now appears to be 'acceptable' and I do feel this is a mans responsibility to step up and be a decent man. Its not just down to a woman to protect herself from 'unsavoury' men. Other men should be setting the standard and monitoring each others behaviour in much the same way as women do with each other.


OFFS, it sounds like you want Men to 'Slut Shame' other Men like Some Women do to other Women...
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 337
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/27/2015 8:03:13 AM

Er, when you put it like that it doesnt sound right. Your kind of saying that I would put out with a random and settle for them.

No, not a 'random'. Someone you're excited about and Feel you're hitting it off with, by the way you've been putting it. Is that true? Again, the concept is about having sex before going out on dates is routine & A Given (nobody asks anyone out anymore). Sex itself shouldn't change things. You want it to? Have a discussion with him about it. Handshake deal. Otherwise, one has no reason to complain that he/she lost interest. Sex itself shouldn't change things. Sex had or not, both parties can be hitting it off quite well on date #1 or #2, but then by date #5 -- ehhh. Having sex before that date #5 shouldn't make someone stick it out because he stick it in, ya know? :)

Whats with all the 'better options'. If your with someone and you having a good date and your turned on and wanting her, what is a better option? I dont get it?

A better option is the other person(s) you're talking with and going out with! People don't just go out on a date with 1 person at 1 time. And you're not "with" that person just because you had a great date. Ideally it'd Lead to being "with" that person, but it's too early to tell -- whether you have sex or not.

If they have that many fans they are probably out of my league and do you know what Im kind of glad about that, cos that all sounds like hard work.

I've made/kicked-off a profile for an average Jane in her late 20s. She wasn't some hottie or out of my league (a friend's roommate). Her inbox Filled Up. No, not all were wacko guys at all. Many gals on POF will have a fan-club so to speak. It's a recommended ego-booster. Hence, a lot of guys pouting on the forums.

All of which is just fine and good. Its just, if thats how he feels why not be the bigger person and not initiate sex?

For the same reason "not initiate a kiss" because you don't know if things are going to continue down the line. Any person, guy or girl, can roll with the great flow of a date or two, and have an 8th-grade-makeout-jam-session in the parking lot -- or more -- but after several more dates not be that into them (affected by other options possibly).

If you don't want to do more than a goodnight kiss if he's possibly not going to be that into you dates down the line, then refuse him. Heck, why do you even want a kiss, right? Or even a great date? How dare he/she hit it off with me if they're not going to Be With me?! ;)

If I had sex and he was still dangling some others it would make me feel like Im not 'the best option'. If Im not the best option then do me a favour and dont bother having sex with me.

So he and you are supposed to drop all options because you have sex? How about sucky-sucky in the back seat? Or steamy makeout session in the parking lot with wandering hands? Or a great date & kiss? How about you do yourself a favor and NOT have sex with someone until you're Officially Exclusive? You can't silently just blame on the other person -- that's soooo 8th grade :)

Sex should be because you like the person and you want sex with them.

Okay, I can't disagree there...

Not because its there and convenient, thats...........I dont know? Having sex with someone your not bothered about having sex with.

I don't see how the two are that much different. You like the person. Yes. One can like the person And be bothered about having sex with them. Many times not being bothered about having sex with them requires them at least liking them. Let's put pounding a gal's vajayjay out of the way for a few secs...

One can legitimately like a person, and be sexually attracted to them, yet, weeks later, not be that into them or it not working out. They can like the person and be sexually attracted to them, but still have other options. Nothing's a given about them liking you back down the line. Or you liking them so much. That's the concept of "too early". Before you go out routinely over a long stretch of time.

It's Up To You to Declare an Exclusivity Requirement Early. And also Early in the date when things are hitting off. It'll ruin the mood sometimes, which is probably why a lot of people don't do it -- but put the onus on the other person if weeks later their interest wanes for one reason or another.

When Im on line, Im talking to more than one at a time. If I go on a date Im still talking to more than one at a time.

Okay, great, great....

If Im having sex, then Ive chosen who I want and the rest are no longer options

No -- what if you JUST had sex with one of them on a 1st or 2nd date after hitting it off? You're not "having sex" with said person, you had sex (big difference). What about another guy you had a date with several days prior? Or the other guy you already have a date vaguely set with soon? Drop 'em?

they are second choices so are for whatever reason, probably not worth persuing

Whoah wait -- there's a HUGE difference between "no longer options" and "second choices" who are probably not worth pursuing. You're claiming both. You'll complain if you get boned by a guy on a mere date who will still have other choices/options in the background, but it's okay for you? Are you saying it's OK for both? But if you have sex, the person must be the Primary Choice? Again, it's still juggling. :) And also, one of their choices could be someone they had sex with in the past, but, hey, they had a work retreat, etc., but got back in touch in the present, etc. Life isn't so clear-cut on things.
 Siennarh
Joined: 5/1/2015
Msg: 338
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/27/2015 12:32:03 PM

How about sucky-sucky in the back seat? Or steamy makeout session in the parking lot with wandering hands?
Lol wow. Malez wish :P Plus I'd rather not get diseases


Or a great date & kiss?

That sounds more appropriate.
 newoldgirl
Joined: 4/16/2015
Msg: 339
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/27/2015 9:34:02 PM

A better option is the other person(s) you're talking with and going out with! People don't just go out on a date with 1 person at 1 time. And you're not "with" that person just because you had a great date. Ideally it'd Lead to being "with" that person, but it's too early to tell -- whether you have sex or not.


I have dated more than one person at the same time. It's the nature of PoF and the fact that I like dates that include an activity that don't go on too long , time wise. In the early stages, I prefer lunch over dinner for this reason. After getting to know the person ( and this can be a couple of dates, or quite few dates, depending on the person) I have sex if we both want to, but not before a frank discussion about the fact that we are not going to keep dating other people. No, it doesn't mean we are in a huge big relationship immediately, and I don't necessarily want to increase frequency of our dates or communication, but I just can't be ****ing a guy on Tuesday and Sunday and ****ing a different one on Monday and Friday. I don't want someone I am spending my time on doing it either. A one time hook up or a FB is a different thing, but if I am willing to spend time dating and getting to know someone because I think there is potential for a real relationship, I can put a hold on pursuing others for the same amount of time. BTW, I only date men around my age, late forties, early fifties, and without exception they have responded positively ( even seeming relieved) when I tell that I am not interested in continuing to date around once we are having sex together.


How about sucky-sucky in the back seat? Or steamy makeout session in the parking lot with wandering hands? Or a great date & kiss? How about you do yourself a favor and NOT have sex with someone until you're Officially Exclusive? You can't silently just blame on the other person -- that's soooo 8th grade :)


I'm an all or nothing girl, personally. I can tell if I am attracted to a man by looking, talking, laughing, smelling, and lots of kissing...when it's on it's on...I want the whole nine yards. A grope session before I am sure if I want to have sex with him would be an exercise in frustration.
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 340
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Posted: 5/28/2015 2:09:40 AM
Well said newold.....

I have dated several men at the same time and I, too, am not interested in introducing sex until I believe that there is a shot at least with that man that it will go further....
If it doesn;t work out down the road, I'm NOT going to 'ask for my money back' so to speak....lol

I believe that's what Vicky is trying to express...? Correct me if I'm wrong here, Vicky....

We see on another thread that there's a guy who is FULLY prepared to have sex with a woman that he has declared without equivocation that he is NOT attracted to, yet he will have sex with her despite that....

It's that type of behaviour that I believe most women find quite baffling, frankly....

Is it compartmentalization? I mean, how do you...um, 'perform' when you're NOT attracted to the person that you're with???
I don't get that at all....

As Gatto said so eloquently, it's not that the sex is the primary part of the relationship....Just that it IS an important consideration....

I know for me that if a guy tells me that he is 'dating around' and wants to have sex with me, I will ask him point blank if he is having sex with the women that he's dating, IF I am interested in something more.
If he is, then it becomes less about having sex so much and more about the fact that he's keeping his 'options open', which IS his right to do....

It's ALSO MY right to NOT have sex with him if I want more unless/until I see that he has decided the same...

If the chemistry is there, it's pretty unlikely the sex will be bad, and if he's unable to take a break from dating around and focus on us in order to find out that tells me that he's NOT that interested in being in a committed relationship, which is fine....But, I ALSO don't want to be having sex with someone as WELL as ALL of the people that that THEY have had sex with and so on and so on.....on an ongoing basis...I'm just NOT that trusting...lol

If I am interested enough in a man that I want to have sex with him, chances are I'm interested enough to want to see where it goes relationship-wise, otherwise, I would be in an FB situation, where we are having sex to meet our momentary needs with no thought of it going any further...

I HAVE had relationships that started out that way...and the funny thing is that although the chemistry is GREAT and the sex was always good, that was usually, in the end, ALL that there was to it....

I know it sound counter intuitive in some ways, but it IS true that sometimes making yourself 'wait' is more conducive to having a relationship, as opposed to jumping into bed right away....

Besides, I'm not 20 anymore, my memory isn't what it used to be and my problem with 'dating around' never mind having sex, these days any way, falls more in the category of trying to keep the men I date all straight in my mind and NOT call them by each other's name, or WORSE, forget their name altogether!!! LOL
 GattoMonstrosis
Joined: 4/4/2013
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/28/2015 3:12:47 AM

Exactly, that is what I am saying. Sex is an important part of a relationship, if your exploring it with someone why have a few others in the background as 'options'?


Ah right!! Sorry, i missed the bit about her being one of a number of options, i wasn't talking about having sex with several people on the go at the same time but rather exploring the sexual aspect with someone you're not quite in a concrete relationship with yet.
 GattoMonstrosis
Joined: 4/4/2013
Msg: 342
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/28/2015 4:29:30 AM

Isnt that what casual sex is? Someone/anyone to have sex with to meet the needs? not to establish a relationship?


I don't think casual sex has to be completely meaningless, clinical, because-i-have-juices-to-get-rid-of-and-you're-better-than-a-tube-sock sex, sure it can be but just because it doesn't mean everything doesn't mean it can't mean anything at all.
I don't think sex establishes the relationship, it's a part of the relationship sure, but if it establishes it then what exactly is the sex? A reward for sticking around? I think it depends on what you get out of sex other than an orgasm, if it's a lynchpin that everything hangs off of and holds it all together or something damn good that you do together.
That that isn't what the line that was quoted was about anyway, it was about assuming that just because someone had sex that sex was all they wanted in the first place.



I would suggest that comes down to your problem solving skills and how much you really want to be together.


But why not solve the problems before they're problems? Sort it out before the relationship is declared established, so if you decide you don't really want to be together after all then you can walk away, no harm no foul?
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 343
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/28/2015 8:17:44 AM


People don't just go out on a date with 1 person at 1 time.
What????? now it wasnt often I did that even in my teens. Ive got two kids and my dating life is every other Saturday night.

First, it's not a teeny-bopper thing to go out on dates with multiple people within the same general time-frame. If you're limited to only every other Saturday, you can't expect every other guy to conform and be "Well I NEVER!" if he does have multiple options at one time (much like being in fruitful contact with more than one person at a time) he's going out on initial dates with. It's not a guy thing -- it's a people thing to be in cahoots with multiple people in the same time-frame until you go Exclusive. It's STANDARD, not an exception. If you don't like that, that's fine -- but you can't sneer at others as if they're doing something wild by that common-sense notion.

Mostly I have to arrange a first meet for an hour early evening or lunch time in order to see if its worth going on a date.

That IS a date. Not all dates are big extravaganzas.

I would hate it if I was really into him, put out for him, only to find out he was dating others.

That's why when you ask the guy questions and stuff which you like to do, you should make that one of them if that's so important to you. As I mentioned earlier, you can't silently blame it on the other person -- or better put, blame it on them when you were silent about your qualifications if you 'put out' rather early well before you've established having been seeing each other.

I am a woman I am allowed to do that. I am also allowed to be free with my emotions. My angry and jealous ones are not pretty. Men kind of pick up on that ;)

No, you're not. THAT is sooo 8th-grade. Adults aren't "allowed" to do that, or have free passes on not mentioning how they like things to flow, then blame it on the other person of what they themselves think how others should roll.


So he and you are supposed to drop all options because you have sex?
Yes. I would without being asked. You might think this is a woman thing but I think a lot of men would be as equally hurt to find out that the women he thought he was a stud with, didnt really think the same and was out with someone else.

If "what you're supposed to do" in your own mind isn't to be mentioned, and you expect things to flow without anything being said/talked about, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot if you find that to be a travesty. It's the caveat with getting heated up 'too early', whether full-fledged sex is had or not. You can't play silent baby games out of fear of communication. If you fear communicating with the guy about it and seeing others -- then you're in the 'early' phase. You can't declare your way is not merely the best way, but The Right way, without mention -- and if you find out he still has a foot in the dating scene after date #2 with you went well and was a little steamy, you can't call foul. Just because your emotions take a hit doesn't mean the other person did anything wrong. There's "rules" I would love to be Universal myself, but I can't declare them Universal to everyone but them and just expect them to conform and flip out if they don't. Wtf? :)

If I have decided to have sex he IS the primary choice. Its not like Im sitting there thinking 'oooo, which one shall I have sex with, which one is going to be the best sex'.

Yes, but there's a difference between primary choice & ONLY choice. Which one are you saying? And without any discussion with him -- what are you assuming he should conform to?

What? who lives like this? If we had sex in the past and he was all wishy washy and wanting a work retreat he aint gona get a second shot at it. Id of moved on.

Never said they were wishy-washy. As I said, life isn't so clear-cut on things -- there can be no ill-will or that being done by "surprise" or anything. Like you, you're only available once every 2 weeks. One could say that's wishy-washy if they only think about their emotions & needs (fvck everyone else! this is about me! "I deserve! I deserve!"). It'd be rude to merely throw you in that wishy-washy pile because you're hardly available. It is what it is. But someone who's grown up emotionally past teenage years will understand that they can have a great time with someone who's not every available, and things can be great when they see them -- but since they haven't seen them many times, and there's great distance between the times that they Do see them -- they're not going to drop all options off the table. Now, that may mean Not having sex with them until the 5th date, which in your case would be 10 weeks if you can't see someone but just Once every 2 weeks. :)
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 344
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/28/2015 9:52:22 AM
What????? now it wasnt often I did that even in my teens. Ive got two kids and my dating life is every other Saturday night. Oddly, not many men find that appealing, I have no idea why.
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Seriously? You don't understand that? I think it would be difficult to understand why a man would find that appealing unless he was looking for a fwb or casual sex.

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I struggle getting out on a date with one man let alone several. Mostly I have to arrange a first meet for an hour early evening or lunch time in order to see if its worth going on a date. I would hate it if I was really into him, put out for him, only to find out he was dating others. Thats horrible!!!
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Why is that horrible? If independence is about anything, it's about setting your own priorities and being satisfied with the result being in line with your other priorities, independent of what anyone else thinks about that. Dating, sex and relationships are priorities like everything else. If you don't like the situation you're in, you can change your priorities to put yourself in a situation that is more optimal. What you can't do is expect everyone else to work around your priorities. Your dating life reflects the choices you've made.

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If I had sex then I would say, drop the others or do one hun. I would expect him to be upfront about that.
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Or you can decide up front that if you have sex, that's all it is, if you don't have time for a relationship right now, which it appears you do not. How you choose to think about things makes a big difference and if you choose to not consider unusual alternatives that might be better, you should be satisfied with the outcome from making the choices you've made. If you don't understand how your own choices limit you, no matter what choices you make, you haven't given it much thought.
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 345
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/28/2015 4:43:15 PM
Not exactly. But its a long drawn out boring story that Ive explained several times on here and not really wanting to explain again. Lets just say that life sometimes gets in the way of life, not all circumstances are a result of YOUR OWN choices, not all plans go to plan and sometime you get situations that are unplanned and you just have to work your way through them.
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That's not relevant. Any time you make a choice of any kind, there is a risk that it will not go as planned. However, that risk ought to be a major factor in making a decision. If you cannot accept something going wrong, make a safer choice. You should never gamble without accepting the chance of losing and being satisfied with that, even if disappointed.

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Part of me agrees with you and part of me just screams, because women have the mis-fortune to be left holding the baby there worth is reduced from 'sexually loving someone, to casual sex'.
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I really don't even understand that statement. No matter who you are, different people will have different opinions of your worth to them. So what?

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Taking it to extremes for the sake of explaination its like asking the 'nice, well brought up girl who suffered a set back life to become a prostitute'.
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First, I don't buy into the well brought up nice girl stereotype and I'm not so blind that I equate sexual promiscuity with being bad or lacking character. Second, prostitution is a choice (apart from people who are abducted and sold into slavery, which is not what is posited). Based on the economics, it might make perfect sense, or not. It all depends on one's priorities and it is a choice that is mostly unavailable to males.

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Yes we all know life is like that, but is that good enough. Does that sit well with you?
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How anything sits with me doesn't matter. What matters is dealing with reality as it is, not as one wishes it were.
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My choices are to ensure stability and security for my children. My choices are to create a loving safe homelife for my children despite the interference of the twat of my ex. Those choices sit well for me.
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Those are still choices, which is just fine, but I don't see the problem with just accepting the implications and figuring out how to get the most from that situation. There are women who provide those things for their kids without becoming cloistered.


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I appreciate they are not attractive for a man. Its just a shame that men dont get the worth of a woman who will sacrifice to ensure her childrens happiness.
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You are making unwarranted assumptions. What men don't want is to be in a "relationship" with someone they rarely see and for most men, someone who equates sex with a relationship. I know I found it really annoying to have to figure out whether or not a woman was going to be an emotional basket case if we had sex and that was all,it was, especially since women seem to say they are ok with things they really aren't ok with. I finally made myself as unappealing as possible as relationship material to ensure that I only met women who had a more positive view of sex, in that they weren't going to tie sex to a relationship. I was never opposed to a relationship, but I was opposed to being in another relationship with a woman who equated it with sex.

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Im not resentful of men, just my ex, and yes I am angry about him.
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And that helps you, how? Is it really productive to let someone you don't want to be around continue to affect you?
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 346
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/31/2015 9:59:02 PM
Thats too generalised Male, its like saying we are all born equal and everyone has the same opportunities in life.
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No it's not, not in the least. Apparently, you would rather think of yourself as a victim than to admit you have choices and take risks. That is also a choice, even if you make it only by not doing anything else.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 347
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 6/1/2015 12:10:50 AM

for most men, [don't want] someone who equates sex with a relationship. I know I found it really annoying to have to figure out whether or not a woman was going to be an emotional basket case if we had sex and that was all,it was, especially since women seem to say they are ok with things they really aren't ok with. I finally made myself as unappealing as possible as relationship material to ensure that I only met women who had a more positive view of sex, in that they weren't going to tie sex to a relationship. I was never opposed to a relationship, but I was opposed to being in another relationship with a woman who equated it with sex.

Yeah, that is one thing that gets on a lot of guys' nerves. Not just them being an emotional basket case if they see & feel it that way -- but the logical idiocy with it. Gals who equate having sex with some by-default "we're a couple now" and freak out if he's not automatically exclusive with her and all about her as if they've been seeing each other frequently over a good period of time, is just missing the boat. A guy can be an idiot thinking that too... usually requiring him to have had some big crush on the gal, she being out of his league and a real rare catch for him, etc.

I can't blame the Hurt that one can have, but that's dating life. There's a difference between being hurt and the other person doing something Bad to them. Unfortunately, a mistaken train of thought, for some, can equate mere sex->relationship in their (falsely) logical mind to make up for their hurt. We tend to want to do that, kind of like making someone a bad person when they're not if the by-product of interactions leads to hurt.

From my observance over the years, I've seen the same girls who've gone by the false assumption that sex = relationship with guys they really liked *NOT* apply when they're on the rebound and hook up with guys who really wouldn't be totally their style anyway. It's a selfish thing -- but when it turns a falsehood into a claimed truth, that's when things get really f'd up.

What? how are you equating sex as part of a relationship with emotional instability? Im not an emotional basket case.

He's not saying that. You know that, come on. :) Someone's emotionally unstable if they believe that (merely) having sex = now being in a relationship, regardless of how quick things unfolded. Meaning (and correct me if I'm wrong on the details, Male) having the belief that if I have sex with you, even if it's "too early" -- by default, it's a given that we are now a couple. Not necessarily a serious couple or anything, especially if it happened kinda early, but we're a "couple" now, (merely) Because we had sex, in and of itself. That's the koo-koo part. :)

Me myself, I shy away from a gal who's going to be a clinger if we were to have sex, or would expect that sex itself is "supposed" to put the two even at least in some "unofficial" couplehood. I can understand in many circumstances/situations that if the two held off from sex for a good while and THEN they have sex, that it amplifies the closeness... so if it was on the borderline of being a couple at that point -- sure, then at That point down the line, beginning to have sex does amplify things (kind of like meeting parents or something). That's why with one of my friends who is a standard Mr Nice Guy do-gooder -- I told him NOT to begin having sex with a gal he was seeing for over a month unless he was Truly into her (which he wasn't). She was ga-ga about him, and he was lukewarm about her. At THAT point, yes, it'd give the impression to cross the threshold from not-really-exclusive to exclusive.

Sex pushing things into being a couple would pretty much require it to be pretty darn close to already being a couple already, so it carrying more weight at that point + being one of many factors -- which would mean you have been seeing each other some for a good while already w/o sex, while also seeing each other under a normal dating runway (as opposed to some FWB or "not looking for a relationship" notion declared early on).
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 348
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 6/1/2015 5:09:48 AM


who equate having sex with some by-default "we're a couple now"


As mentioned in another thread, there are t hose that would like to enjoy a very long journey before deciding to pull over at a destination.

Keep the gas tank full!
 xlr8ingme
Joined: 3/16/2015
Msg: 349
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 6/1/2015 7:17:41 AM
There tends to be quite a few men out there that equate sex to a relationship as well. While women may get hurt, men seem to get angry, jealous, and malicious. As a female, I know we get labeled for having more than one "companion".
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 350
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 6/1/2015 1:52:50 PM

There tends to be quite a few men out there that equate sex to a relationship as well. While women may get hurt, men seem to get angry, jealous, and malicious. As a female, I know we get labeled for having more than one "companion".


I couldn't agree more. It's definitely not just women who believe that sex=relationship. Perhaps some of those men buy into the idea that ALL women equate sex with a relationship and it's actually those type of men who figure they are "trapping" a woman into a relationship that they themselves want. Then they get the bejeebers surprised right out of them when they find that women can simply enjoy sex for the sake of it without it meaning anything other than that. Liking someone well enough to have sex with them doesn't mean it's a requirement to jump into a full blown relationship and it shouldn't mean that for either men or women - not unless you're willing to wait to find out FIRST if the person is relationship material before sex enters into it - fat chance of that at the present time. Regardless of all the scientific studies, the way sex is viewed at any given time throughout history, a huge portion of it depends on society's "norms" at any given time and less on inherent supposed psychological/biological babble.
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