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 Ladyinred4755
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 26
Independence VS InterdependancePage 2 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
LMAO, I should have known this was coming down the pike. Actually,

he expressed how he's independent and doesn't need a woman to take care of him


Hence my response, as you quoted me.

IMO, The assumed correlation between money, who pays for what, and needs or being taken care of, is just that, an assumption.

My BF offered to take me to dinner to Applebees, when we first met. He stated, "Order anything you'd like, it's on me."

He and I are rather old school. Two regular folks living life one day at a time. We enjoy the time we have together. We love and share time together with our families. We don't have to prove our independence or lack thereof, with money. Most often he pays, per his choosing, and when he doesn't we have discussed this prior to going out to eat/movie, etc. (Call me what you will, I could care less.)
I am very mindful of his/my financial situation. I have done things for him, such as his tax preparation, just as an example, which saved him money.

We TALK.! Imagine that!

BTW, he reads these Forum threads, and most often just shakes his head, in disbelief. LOL, As do I, enough said.
 Demidar
Joined: 10/22/2014
Msg: 27
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/1/2015 11:21:27 AM
"old school" = man pays for everything . I view a relationship , not as a matter of independence or interdependence , but more as a matter of two people who combine their strengths to minimize any weaknesses ( seems a very novel idea on my part these days ) .
In the current western society a " real man" is a man who will do what he is told to do after his masculinity is questioned , sorry those are not real men .
 rennips1949
Joined: 3/6/2015
Msg: 28
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/1/2015 11:47:27 AM
Some interesting insights expressed in this thread,
IMO, the commentary on keeping finances and assets separate, sharing mutual expenses, as if this were some proof of deterioration in relationships, is not entirely accurate.

More often now, 2 people come into a committed relationship or marriage having already made significant steps in establishing themselves in education, life's work and finances. It's more like 2 people walking the same path as caring companions, not so much as 2 people who NEED to interdepend-as might be the case of 2 people starting out together in life at the very bottom rung of the ladder. Which would be an "old school" relationship. I guess.
I think that this trend is simply a reflection of marriage/committment adapting to social and cultural changes.

Genuine real men don't worry about how other people define "real man".
 dpwesu
Joined: 3/25/2013
Msg: 29
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 4:36:51 AM
while I didn't read the post in its whole entirety......

Bamagirl (see message 5)

I totally understand what you went through.

I gave way too much in my own 14 year relationship. I gave and gave and gave with not much in return.

- HE wanted babied, waited on hand and foot and got to a point where he wouldn't lift a finger to help unless I started screaming and yelling.

At one point I got so fed up I told him if he didn't want to help - in the relationship OR around the house....to leave.

And ultimately we did end it.....but for totally different reasons.....but the lesson I learned.....

don't ever depend on anyone else for anything - if you want or need something done....do it yourself.
 Eternityboreme
Joined: 3/18/2015
Msg: 30
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 4:49:34 AM

"old school" = man pays for everything .


When I invite a man to my home, it's I who's paying for everything on that date (i.e., the food shopping, cost of fuel to cook, my time and effort, cleaning supplies to clean up after him, his hand washing and flushing using my water, et al.)



I view a relationship , not as a matter of independence or interdependence , but more as a matter of two people who combine their strengths to minimize any weaknesses ( seems a very novel idea on my part these days ) .
In the current western society a " real man" is a man who will do what he is told to do after his masculinity is questioned , sorry those are not real men .


Whatever the hell this means.
 tgif111
Joined: 10/24/2014
Msg: 31
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 6:08:56 AM
I know what he's talking about attractive Mz. Eternity^^^^^^^^

my brother has had his balls handed to him by his wife.
she's nice to me and me to her but the way she orders him around puzzles me why he takes it. I guess to stay married. the ordering around isn't so bad if it's done occasionally but it's a constant thing and she tells him to do things in minute detail. it's very difficult for me to swallow.

maybe that's why i'm not very good with long term.
 Eternityboreme
Joined: 3/18/2015
Msg: 32
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 9:03:43 AM

maybe that's why i'm not very good with long term.


Don't use your brother as an excuse: you don't want a long-term relationship because you don't want the responsibilities that are entailed in creating and maintaining one, including the costs. It's very clear that you want to exist as a player.

You don't want to expend and invest any of your resources; yet the women must bear the expenses of not only their time and money for their share of the bill, baby-sitter costs, transportation, the cosmetics, salon visits and outfits to entertain you -- but for the wear and tear of their vaginae that include gynae visits, birth control, abortions for unwanted pregnancies, pregnancies, condoms, STD treatments...notwithstanding their broken hearts. (Aren't you among the ilk that want to obstruct women's access to all of these, to boot?)

So while you complain of the injustice of having to pay $35 for a meal for a woman who realized what you really were and the insufferable prospect of fcuking you (and GTOFO with a quickness, understandably so), you neglect to -- selectively so -- to mind that of the people you want fcuk. She knew it.
 Silverhawk_tkn
Joined: 12/3/2010
Msg: 33
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 10:20:25 AM

What does interdependence mean to you?


I've never been a fan of women who brandish their independence like a sword. As a matter of fact, I even have this as a negative on my profile.

To me, interdependence is the realization by both that your partner offers you some benefit that you cannot easily get without same said partner, and the feeling is mutual. Simple, but thats it in a nutshell, and its the greatest feeling when you have a romantic interdependence with someone.

To me, interdependence is not just limited to romantic partnerships - it works well in career/work relationships too. For example, I have a great team at my workplace where my interdependence with my coworkers allows us to function so much more efficiently than if I was a one man band...........
 dpwesu
Joined: 3/25/2013
Msg: 34
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 10:32:55 AM
well silverhawk.....(see message 38)


I've never been a fan of women who brandish their independence like a sword. As a matter of fact, I even have this as a negative on my profile.


It amazes me how I real profile after profile that men write on here how they want a woman who is independent, self sufficient, educated, responsible, financially secure,
et al.

And when it comes down to the brass tacks.....they truly don't want that. What they really want is a weak,whiny bimbo who can't find her way out of a wet paper bag.

But that being said....there are women out here.....myself included who were NOT given a choice as to whether or not we want to be independent/interdependent.

Some of us needed REAL LEGITIMATE HELP and couldn't obtain it.....so in essence....we have had to figure it out....and make things happen.....ON OUR OWN.

We had to stand on our own two feet and be independent.



.
 Silverhawk_tkn
Joined: 12/3/2010
Msg: 35
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 10:57:48 AM

We had to stand on our own two feet and be independent


Dpwesu, I get where you are coming from and its not that I don't appreciate women who are independent. I feel these days we all need to be independent and we all need to make sure our own ends meet.

What I really am getting at is that there are those (both male and female) who are so independent that there really is no CHANCE for them to develop any kind of interdependence. I found very successful, highly motivated businesswomen to be like this when I dated a few.

Please know, I'm not trying to put these kind of women down - I think its great that there is lots of examples of gender equality these days and its kind of expected. However, I just find that I don't feel like I can contribute anything of worth to the relationship. I feel more competitive than complementary to women who are like this, and its just me - there are plenty of guys out there that would love to be with a woman that is superior to them in daily life skills and talents. I'm just not one of them.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 36
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 11:22:00 AM
dpwesu- Ding, Ding!
Yup, they are out there.
Being raised by my grandparents, no mom or dad around, was hard.
However, when my grandmother went blind when I was 15, I took over paying bills, so I've had that figured out since an early age.
Picking up the phone and calling for help wasn't an option, there was no one for me to call.
It's a good thing I had so much figured out because asking for help in my marriage usually meant a fight (or just getting ignored and doing it myself).
Still, I know what Dee is saying, I would have given ANYTHING to get a break.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the person you are with to carry some of the load.
Like I said in my first post, I think it should be the man giving some and the woman giving some, a compromise, if you will.
I don't think it's fair or right for one adult to over burden another adult that they SAY they love.
It is hard for me to ask in the first place, because I AM used to doing it all.
Surely, there are men and women out there that understand the concept of give and take? (I hope)
I almost started a similar thread, because this time around, that is what I am looking for.
I understand how Dee felt starting this thread, which is why I replied so quickly.
I am happy single and will remain single until I DO find a man that is willing to do his part of things that need to be done.
I HAVE to believe they are out there (please), or I will just stay happy and single ;)
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 37
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 12:51:03 PM

I feel more competitive than complementary to women who are like this, and its just me - there are plenty of guys out there that would love to be with a woman that is superior to them in daily life skills and talents. I'm just not one of them.


THIS is exactly what I was talking about!!!
Ok silver...so tell me, why do you feel "competitive" with a woman who is "superior in Life skills or talent"???

What does that MEAN exactly.....??? How do you feel 'inferior' or that a woman like that is 'superior'???

You said that you felt like you "COULDN'T contribute anything of worth", can you explain that?

Why did you feel that way? What do YOU feel are 'worthwhile contributions'?

I'm asking because SO often when I DID hear that from men in the past....it was never really explained in any depth or detail, as we were at the end of the relationship and it wasn't something they were willing to try and articulate for my benefit, as they CLEARLY saw that the problem WAS me....and my 'not needing them enough', although I felt as though I was TRYING to 'need' them...

There's a disconnect there of some kind, something that just doesn't compute, I guess, for me....

I am asking this in all sincerity , just to be clear....as I would really like to understand....

@Bama....I hear you.....Have felt like that myself so OFTEN, not even funny...you hit that nail SQUARE on the head....
 tgif111
Joined: 10/24/2014
Msg: 38
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 2:02:46 PM
from the very attractive and feisty Mz. Eternity:

you don't want a long-term relationship because you don't want the responsibilities that are entailed in creating and maintaining one, including the costs. It's very clear that you want to exist as a player.


a player attains his goals through DECEPTION.

I attain my goals through HONESTY.

I'm willing to share cost Mz. Eternity. I was asked out last night by a woman who wanted to take me to the live theater production of the musical Sister Act in downtown Youngstown at the end of the month. she said she would buy two tickets. I told her it was probably going to be expensive as it was at the DeYor Center For Performing Arts. she said yes, they were $56 a piece. knowing that translated to a day and a half's work for her I told her I would split the cost. she happily agreed.

just because I share one episode where there was a pay misunderstanding does not make me a cheapskate who wants women to pay.

I blow through $500 a month or more on my dating. my friend Eric has stated that there was a time when he spent double that. so don't misunderstand me you beautiful doll. i'll spend but if the woman is working and she wants to go out with me she will have to spend from time to time as well. men and women are equal.
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 39
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 2:51:41 PM
^^^
I'm up there closer to Eric's figure.

I also dry clean, smell nice and don't mind driving.

My only expectation is a conversation that does not involve finances or each other's past.

Second dates offered, and typically accepted if that conversation happens.

I have no problem converting the dating budget to a relationship investment once we're exclusive.
 lookinginco83
Joined: 3/20/2015
Msg: 40
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 4:13:20 PM

What does interdependence mean to you? Do you believe that it is something that is necessary to a relationship?


Well... in brief...

Codependency makes a relationship more alike a drug addiction. Best suited for dominant personalities that prefer submissive personalities.

Independence makes for a good relationship if both people are more individualistic than team-oriented.

Interdependence makes for a good relationship if both people are more team-oriented than individualistic.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 41
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 7:11:01 PM

Interdependence makes for a good relationship if both people are more team-oriented than individualistic.


That's a tricky one, because I've seen couples who wave the "team work" banner, as long as the more dominate one has the final say in everything.
 lookinginco83
Joined: 3/20/2015
Msg: 42
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 7:35:03 PM

That's a tricky one, because I've seen couples who wave the "team work" banner, as long as the more dominate one has the final say in everything.


I would consider that relationship more codependent in nature if one individual constantly submits to the dominant will of the other. The decisions of that submitting individual are then dependent on the dominant individual at that point.
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 43
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 7:38:31 PM
I've seen several profiles with a variation of,

"I'm looking for the captain to steer my ship"

No thanks.

If this thing fails, we are both responsible.

No Stepford Wives please :)
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 44
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/2/2015 7:45:55 PM
Something to watch out for in trying to answer this, and other challenges of being human, is how "peopley" people can be.

What I mean by that, is how people often, in action, and even more so in how they talk about their actions, slip and slide around, changing the meanings of words, concepts...pretending to have different goals from one moment to the next...fooling themselves, as much as they do each other.

They do it out of confusion, out of greed, out of fear... and very often, because they are copying each other and the people around them. All the different motivations, are mixed with a heaping spoonful of caution or self-doubt.

That means that the very same person who tells you they want you to show more "independence" in one stage of your interactions with them, can tell you that you are TOO "independent" at another time, without your behavior changing at all, and without them being remotely aware of how they appear to have so thoroughly contradicted themselves.

It might have something to do with mental compartmentalization, or just to the fact that when some people speak, they don't so much say in their own, carefully thought out words, what they want to say. They instead repeat phrases they've heard again and again, which approximate what they think they want to say. It's sort of like trying to communicate via a collection of catch-phrases and other peoples' quotations.

Anyway, as we all try to "solve" this kind of challenge, I think that taking a moment to recognize how we keep tripping over ourselves, is a wise thing to do.
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 45
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/3/2015 5:14:44 AM
Interesting take there Igor....

Not sure I quite understand what you're getting at....
Perhaps you're saying that rather than 'dig up' the actual feelings, people tend towards generalizations that 'fit'? Is that what you were getting at?

I do get that often times it takes a LOT of self-reflection for me in my relationships, to not get 'lazy' with my communications to people in my Life and to be CLEAR about what I'm feeling and why....and then to articulate that to them...

Sometimes it may take me some time to realize that whatever the 'issue' may be, it is actually just MY issue, and their behaviour has remained consistent, the only variable is ME.....

I know when I'm doing that, it's usually because I've somehow 'fooled myself' into believing in a specific 'version' of someone else, and am reluctant for a variety of reasons to face what's REALLY there....

Fear that I may be forced to confront a 'deal breaker' and lose that relationship....
Confusion as to whether or not what I may be feeling is actually a reality and NOT just a reaction on my part...
Greed in that I don't want to lose what I have....

I do believe that sometimes when a guy has said that to me in the past, I've suspected that he has gotten that particular POV directly from what I may have shared at some point about what my past issues may have been...The words themselves just don't 'fit' in the speech of someone with virtually NO emotional language....

One of the most sincere examples of a guy confronting me with this when I was in my early 20s, was my first live-in b/f...He actually DID say pretty much the same thing, but used his OWN words....and he was actually 100% right!!
That is what prompted me to get into therapy and start to deal with my issues from my family of origin.
I just couldn't deny my own responsibility there, and chose not to, and dealt with a whole BUNCH of unpleasant crap, that was crippling me in ALL walks of Life, NOT just in relationships....

I'm forever in his debt for that.....

@Clooney....Well...I'm thinking maybe they just can't swim and, after all, the Captain goes down with the ship, right??? Never heard anything about the First Mate having to.... LOL
Sounds like someone hoping to avoid responsibility for themselves and their decisions, to me....
 rennips1949
Joined: 3/6/2015
Msg: 46
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/3/2015 11:09:09 AM
I just don't get how a HEALTHY relationship can exist where there is a belief that one partner is superior to the other.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 47
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/3/2015 3:34:01 PM

Interesting take there Igor....

Not sure I quite understand what you're getting at....
Perhaps you're saying that rather than 'dig up' the actual feelings, people tend towards generalizations that 'fit'? Is that what you were getting at?


Yes, that's part of it, but there's more work involved (unfortunately). It's not so much that people purposely hide their feelings (though of course some do), as that they genuinely don't realize that they actually have to WORK to express themselves accurately. In this case, it means that some people who feel anxious about the other person in their life, will sort through their closet shelf full of stuff they heard other people say in such situations, and then say it themselves, even though it's only partly correct. The more often I hear a given phrase, the more suspicious I get that it's one of those.

It's a bit like the way that after a certain cleaning product is advertised enough, lots of people will buy it and use it on everything, whether it really does the job or not.

I'd bet that at least half the people who complain about independence, or about commitment, or about needing or not needing someone, are actually trying to talk about something else. But the terminology of independence and need is so popular, and so generally accepted, that they repeat the common labels and phrases almost like magical chants. Because they ARE generally accepted, they might feel as though they have spoken accurately, because the relief they feel by saying something acceptable, is easily mistaken for the relief of knowing that they said something accurate.

I really don't think that most people want to be NEEDED. Not really. They very much do want to be thought of as essential to enjoyment, but that isn't the same thing as NEEDED. A need is like an addiction: no one loves what they need, it's against human nature. But they'll SAY they want to be needed, because that's the phrase that gets repeated over and over again.

Then comes the next misstep. Because the problem has been mislabeled, the chosen solution to it is wrong.

Because someone said they wanted you to NEED them, you might try to make yourself feel or act as though you are NEEDY. Since they meant "valued," when you turn NEEDY, they aren't happy at all, and switch from complaining about you failing to "need" them, to your being too DEPENDENT, or CLINGY. If they are perceptive enough to recognize that you are faking being needy, they may even accuse you of being manipulative or outright deceptive.

So two basically honest people, end up labeling each other as everything from hypocrites, to insane.
 xlr8ingme
Joined: 3/16/2015
Msg: 48
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/3/2015 7:45:21 PM
I still say its an issue of control. Giving, and getting just the right combination is one of the hardest parts of any relationship. Put any other name on it. Most men want to be the man of the house. From my experiences when they are, they feel needed.
 InnerGorilla
Joined: 4/1/2014
Msg: 49
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/7/2015 8:21:34 AM

I really don't think that most people want to be NEEDED. Not really. They very much do want to be thought of as essential to enjoyment, but that isn't the same thing as NEEDED. A need is like an addiction: no one loves what they need, it's against human nature. But they'll SAY they want to be needed, because that's the phrase that gets repeated over and over again.


If you look at it from a psychological point of view, in the end it's NEED. Want to me is a desire that even though it's intense, I can control. I can stop wanting. But when you need, you are in a state where you cannot completely control it. It controls you to a degree. The key, to it in the end is reciprocity. I don't mind my significant other needing me, as long as it doesn't then turns her into a useless person that cannot function unless I am solving all their problems. That in it self can create the problem of the enabler or the codependent where you find your own validity through solving all the problems of the other person at the expense of your own problems.

So I guess I do feel that I need my SO. I also like that she needs me. I make a difference in her life and the lives of her children. She makes a huge difference in my life, my hopes and aspirations and allows me to be more than I was before.
 sigungq
Joined: 1/4/2013
Msg: 50
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/8/2015 5:42:57 PM
I think the correct word here OP is synergy. Where two people live in harmony and compliment each other. The Feminazis have a word for this as well......... Co-dependence. It's that loathsome term that means a woman has demeaned herself to actually living with a man and ACTUALLY likes it as well.
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