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 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 51
Independence VS InterdependancePage 3 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
Synergy = Healthy need
Co-dependency = Unhealthy need
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 52
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/8/2015 10:32:50 PM

Synergy = Healthy need
Co-dependency = Unhealthy need

But isn't synergy, where you combine yourselves into 'one' together -- isn't that co-dependency?
 kj521
Joined: 8/8/2012
Msg: 53
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 3:57:47 AM
"A need is like an addiction: no one loves what they need, it's against human nature."


That is an interesting statement Igor. And at one time I would have agreed with it.
But the time my late husband and I shared after being diagnosed with terminal cancer....changed that perspective.
We found out just how much we truly needed each other in all ways. That feeling of being needed and needing someone is rather incredible and evokes all kinds of emotions and can be terrifying.....but I will always feel blessed to have been able to experience that type of interdependance.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 54
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 5:11:16 AM
I still think we all "need" to pay attention to the subtle difference between the words we use to SAY what we are trying to say, and the actual reality that we are dealing with.

- sometimes when people say they 'need' each other, they mean that in an entirely healthy, romantic, and positive way. Most of the time when this is true, the 'need' isn't the same as the kind of 'need' one has that continuation of life depends upon.

I don't have a mate, and I do 'need' one in order to feel at my most positive about my existence. However, I am wary of saying that I 'need' someone in many ways, because of the fact that the use of that word DOES trigger lots of people to react negatively. They hear the words 'I need you," and feel manipulation and control, not desire or love.

- 'need' can be the word chosen to describe a unique-to-this-person desire, hunger,and soul-rewarding sense of being. It's not a 'need' at all, in the pedestrian sense. It's more like shorthand. That's why someone can say 'need' is a positive thing to them one day, and a negative thing to them the next.

- also recognize that people who are intent on leaving, are prone to saying whatever works to make it easier for them to reach the door, rather than what makes it easier for the one they are leaving to understand what actually happened. One of the most popular claims to make, when someone wants to escape responsibility for their choices and actions, is to declare that a 'need' made them do what they did.

- when someone declares that they are leaving because they don't feel 'needed,' one question to ask in return, is why it is that they don't 'need' you? Obviously they don't, since they are on their way out, and have no will or desire to make things work. Why is it that you should 'need' them, when they obviously have no 'need' for you? What are they are they really talking about anyway?
 InnerGorilla
Joined: 4/1/2014
Msg: 55
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 6:36:41 AM

That feeling of being needed and needing someone is rather incredible and evokes all kinds of emotions and can be terrifying.....but I will always feel blessed to have been able to experience that type of interdependance.


Kj, this is beautiful. I think we've given need a bad name. Perhaps because by not feeling that deep for each other, you can always retread and protect yourself. But to feel the way you and your husband did, it's to give of each other intensely.
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 56
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 7:30:38 AM
@Kj....I'm sorry for your loss and, having been at the bedside of more than one special person in my Life, when they have left this world, I can relate to expressing those kinds of feelings of need....It can be a beautiful and loving experience, to share that with someone...

For myself, I don't see ANY actual 'need' as being a bad thing....in and of itself....
Even when stating that I need another person, I really don't see that there's anything wrong with that per se....

I think, as Igor mentioned, it becomes a problem when the word 'need' starts to mean something other than what the person is expressing...

As for my own 'case', I think what was being expressed was that the guys didn't feel like I was perhaps considering them enough or valuing their opinions enough in my day-to-day Life....

Not being used to having someone else there to consult with or even to discuss things with, over the years, I am not in the habit of doing so, and can see how someone might take that as my believing them to be superfluous in my Life....
Not the case, but simply that I don't need anyone to take care of that stuff but I DO 'need' someone in my Life as a partner and a friend and lover....
I think that is a basic human need, and although it is more of an option today than before, and people have lots of activities and friends and family to 'fill in', there is STILL something unique that an SO has to offer....

I also believe that particular 'need' often comes under the category of a 'want' because it HAS become one as the world progresses....and women are more independent, more people men and women are deciding to forgo having children etc.

Also there is a BIG difference between basic needs, such as oxygen, food, water, shelter, etc. and then secndary needs, such as community, love, partnership etc.

As far as co-dependance, well that is a need that has been warped out of all recognition and the individual becomes dependent on another person for their happiness and well-being, usually someone who has already proven to be untrustworthy and unreliable....It is a dysfunctional behaviour pattern that is guaranteed to bring nothing but misery as no one else can be responsible for our happiness, but us....
 InnerGorilla
Joined: 4/1/2014
Msg: 57
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 7:37:33 AM

I think, as Igor mentioned, it becomes a problem when the word 'need' starts to mean something other than what the person is expressing...


I can clearly see Igor's point of view. Particularly since both him and I were in relationships with bipolars. These type of relationship turn into an intense roller-coaster of extreme emotions and eventually you get addicted to those emotions. I have to admit that I became co-dementant. Only her needs mattered and after a while you start to loose track of your own self and sense of self value because you're consumed trying to put out a fire for such person.

I went to therapy to get over this damage.

I am now in an incredible relationship, where I've had to learn to open up. To be able to love and be loved, only works when you open yourself to that vulnerability, and it starts with oneself. The thing is that I express those feelings to my girlfriend and she loves the fact that I tell her because she feels wanted, appreciated, desired, physically, emotionally and spiritually.
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 58
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 7:41:52 AM

But isn't synergy, where you combine yourselves into 'one' together -- isn't that co-dependency?


I looked up codependcy. In the psychcentral.comweb page, it lists symptoms of it as;
low self esteem
people pleasing
poor boundaries
Reactivity. (A consequence of poor boundaries is that you react to everyone’s thoughts and feelings. If someone says something you disagree with, you either believe it or become defensive. You absorb their words, because there’s no boundary. )
Caretaking (what Vicki described)
Control
Dsyfunctonal Communication
Obsessions. (Codependents have a tendency to spend their time thinking about other people or relationships. This is caused by their dependency and anxieties and fears.)
Dependency. (Codependents need other people to like them to feel okay about themselves. )
Denial. (One of the problems people face in getting help for codependency is that they’re in denial about it)
Problems with intimacy ( being open and close with someone in an intimate relationship.)
Painful emotions. (Codependency creates stress and leads to painful emotions.)


What KJ describes is synergy. She's expressed how they came to forge a healthy need between the two to survived a pivotal change of their lives and pulled through, ...successfully (Yay for Kj! :) )

From the list posted you can see how co-dependancy exhibits itself as a unhealthy need. See the difference?
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 59
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Posted: 4/9/2015 8:32:27 AM
Interdependence is basically synonymous with the word synergy...

I posted the definition at the beginning of the thread....just so everybody was clear on the definition....

Here is the definition of synergy.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

I'm asking as to whether people feel that it is something that is important to have in a primary relationship, or whether remaining totally independent is a better way to go in your opinion....

It is quite clear that is what Kj and her late husband had together, and I'm glad that they got to share that with each other in such a poignant way, especially at the end of his Life.....
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 60
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 8:42:52 AM
especially at the end of his Life.....



Oh! Now I'm embarrassed. My apologies for my mistake KY. Mis-read *blushes
I'm such a bad girl *slaps hand
Must pay better attention. ; please


You know dee. .... I think it boils down to the individual what is best for them, what works for them in junction with the other individual in their life because each brings something different.
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 61
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Posted: 4/9/2015 8:58:36 AM
Maybe I'm going to change up the question a little.....

How about, do you actually look for a person who has strengths and weaknesses that compliment your own?

If you are actively looking for a partner, are you aware of what you 'need' as far as a complimentary person as a partner goes?

I have learned from those prior experiences with men that stated they didn't feel needed enough that for me it was a matter of finding someone who shares my own values, that quantity of time, ie. living in each others back pocket is NOT equivalent or even comparable to quality of time, spent together....

I learned that someone who is looking to be 'always' in a dominant position or even a subservient one, is NOT for me, that I need to be with someone who is capable of 'switching it up' as necessary...and who can let go of control as well as take the reins when needed....

It IS a tricky balance and I guess you're right Charm...it would depend on the people involved....and what they know of their own strengths and weaknesses....
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 62
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 9:27:08 AM

...ie. living in each others back pocket is NOT equivalent or even comparable to quality of time, spent together....


That is so true! There are so many people who figure you have to live with someone and do all things with them in order for it to be some kind of meaningful relationship. Often those people seem to just be doing things by rote, i.e. being in the same house, doing the same mundane things and rarely speaking to each other - just being together because they are afraid to be/live alone. On the other hand, you can have people who are in long-term relationships, don't feel the need for living together, and yet they are very focussed on each other and about each other when they are together - for years.
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 63
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Posted: 4/9/2015 9:34:56 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^

EXACTLY!!!!

I remember when a good friend of mine got married and it was all of a sudden an impossibility to spend ANY time with ther alone, even if it was my birthday and we were going for manicures, etc.

She kept dragging her husband along, who was as thrilled to be there as I was puzzled as to why he was, frankly....

I mean there were other social occasions where it was appropriate, but I really started feeling like she was trying to make him a part of OUR relationship, which I thought was NOT appropriate, as we had been friends for about 15 yrs at the time...

I asked her if she was including him as some kind of 'buffer', between her and I, did we have something that we needed to discuss? But she insisted that it was because she was 'married now' and her husband should be with her whenever POSSIBLE...

Needless to say, we spent a whole LOT less time together from that point, and eventually both her marriage and the friendship ended....

I don't need to be with my SO, if he wants to go and play poker or soccer or golf, with his buddies, and I don't expect that he would want to join me and my friends for some 'girl talk' or manicures or shopping....

A good example of the difference between 'interdependent' and co-dependent....
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 64
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 10:44:08 AM
I suppose the simple version is: if you need someone or something as a tool to getting towards the Real You, or a better version of You, then its a healthy "need". For example, a partner who supports you the entrepreneur, during a low time, is healthily supplying your need. You need their support to get thru a bankruptcy or failure in the lab or whatever.

But if your partner is your sugardaddy...not so healthy. you're taking the easy way out in life. ironically, its facing our fears and failures, that we actually find out how strong we really can be. anyone can pick up 10lbs, its the one who tries to pick up 100lbs and fails but can do 90lbs, who knows where their strength really is. or as the fortune cookie told me this past weekend, failure is feedback and feedback is the breakfast of champions.

to which I say, failure is noble only when you aren't suffering it at the moment :)
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
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Posted: 4/9/2015 10:49:00 AM

failure is noble only when you aren't suffering it at the moment :)


Truer words.....

Although I DO like the 'failure is feedback' positive, 'spin'.... lol
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 66
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 10:52:22 AM
I wonder what young people would think about the topic-or older people who are addicted to their phones, since for a lot of young people, texting someone 10, 11 times a day to find out what they're up to at that moment and expecting an immediate reply text is considered the norm. Whereas for a lot of older people, that would be considered too controlling if their partner was doing that-especially if it's constant phoning-and expected an immediate response every time.
 kj521
Joined: 8/8/2012
Msg: 67
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/9/2015 12:57:58 PM
Ms. Charmin?

No need for embarrassment. We did pull through and survive through much and in the most important ways...we were successful. Thank you.

And thank you to the others who expressed such kind words. But I do think I have been remiss by not mentioning that having that type of "synergy" or "mutual need"....however you wish to define it....is not all pretty little horses and rainbows. As with everything thing in life....it has it's opposite. That beautiful, healthy, awe inspiring need if taken away can be devastating and can lead to self destruction if not properly identified and addressed.

Somewhere within any Love Story....there will be pain. But I will always believe that the pain is a small price to pay for Love.

To each their own.... :)

Goodness! It's 4:00pm! I have to go satisfy my Starbucks NEED now! :)
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
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Posted: 4/9/2015 1:09:55 PM

Somewhere within any Love Story....there will be pain. But I will always believe that the pain is a small price to pay for Love.


I will also go so far as to add to that and say that pain IS an integral part of Love...You can't have one without the other as a human, knowing that our time is limited and finite....

But it is DEFINITELY worth it, and for me the loss part reminded me of just how precious it was....and how lucky I was to have experienced it....

With great risk, comes great reward.....

Enjoy your Starbucks!!!!
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 69
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Posted: 4/9/2015 4:13:21 PM
OP I agree with many others...great topic. As in many areas, it is subject to the wants and need of the two people in the relationship IE there is no "standard" or "norm" that works for everyone. I do believe for each individual there is great value in knowing what works for you as to your level of independence and interdependence and to be able to communicate that clearly to the other person, understand their and then negotiate what will work for the two of you.

Also, I think it may have to be done more than once, as relationships go along, and you have actual situations the need to discuss this may present itself again. I admit, it does tend to rub me the wrong way when people talk about relationships being "work", the way I define work, but to define work as putting forth effort, I think that's more accurate. I don't think I'd take kindly to someone who I was with to refer to being with me as work.

I believe we all know there's nothing we've gotten or achieved in life that didn't require effort on our part and it's a matter of whether it was worth the effort....or not.

For me, I've always been independent, those who know my backstory would understand. I do realize it's at least part of my nature, something not negotiable, however, interdependence comes as the relationship develops, as far as level of trust and integrity, that I know this person is reliable, their word is their bond. I just don't think that is there when the relationship is fairly new. At least, not for me.

Also, I think it's a blend, not independence VERSUS interdependence as if it's one or the other, I don't think OP that was your intent. I think for most it's a mesh of the two, because if either person is so enmeshed in a relationship they lose their identity, that is not a sign of a healthy relationship at all. We don't cease being US just because we are half of a couple. I think that's extremely important.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 70
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Posted: 4/11/2015 4:19:31 PM
I think it might be good as well, to recognize that there are distinctions between various kinds of "interdependence."

I personally don't care for the idea that a relationship is best with the kind of interdependence which would match with mutual NEED. There are too many relationships based on mutual NEEDS in the world. Worst case scenario is where both people do actually NEED the other, but resent being needy, and so they fight constantly.

At the other end of things, is people who can deal with most of life entirely on their own, but who find mutual benefit from each other. They depend on each other , in the sense that they rely on each other to do what's needed to make the linking of their lives work well. Not because either of them will fall apart if the other leaves.
 Tarnished_Knight
Joined: 3/5/2009
Msg: 71
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Posted: 4/11/2015 4:50:24 PM
The way I look at this, there is the need for a specific person in your life vs. the need to HAVE a person in your life. I realize that a portion, perhaps a large portion, is informed by my evangelical christian faith but I've come to realize that when scripture says that it is not good for man to be alone there is a kernel of truth in it. I was happy as a clam in my singleness going to university, working, playing; and even though I dated I had not committed to any one woman. However, when I did marry and make that social, physical and spiritual commitment I found a level of contentment I had not known before.
Of course I didn't realize it at the time; it wasn't until later, much later, when son's mom's intimacy issues really started flaring that I was able to put the pieces together as to why I had become so miserable. No, it wasn't the dearth of sex (well, maybe a little) but the lack of emotional intimacy, closeness, that I thought we had wrapped our life in.
But, you can't force someone to give intimacy nor can you compel feelings, so what's a guy (person) to do. That, of course, depends on priorities.

So for me, it is not a question of interdependence vs. independence, I believe you can have both in the same relationship; but a question of intimacy (across the board) vs. not. I have no compunction about admitting I NEED a woman in my life; I am a better man for that interrelationship and it fills a void otherwise left empty. This is not just about physical intimacy, though that is important, but the sort of emotional/spiritual intimacy that transects walls, lays waste barriers, opens vistas otherwise unattainable to those committed to being single. In a way, it is analogous to the intimacy between a parent and their child - how do you explain the connection, the sacrificial willingness to those who've willingly avoided offspring.

Anyway, I don't think I'm too old to rediscover that which I miss/long for; but I wonder if a bad experience can taint the prospect from fully growing or blooming. I read so many posts by PoF'ers who seem to be eternally single that I can't help but think we've erected impenetrable shields around that delicate part of our self.

TK
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 72
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Posted: 4/11/2015 4:56:04 PM
@Bucs...well put...and yes, it isn't really about one OR the other...it could have easily have been 'dependent v interdependence', but my personal issue, was that I was said to be "too independent' along with them feeling as though I didn't need them....

And yes...it is important to retain ourselves and still be able to be open enough to others that they feel ...what? Included, maybe?
I've heard it said that it's "creating an atmosphere of hospitality"...in that you make the other person feel 'visible' and 'welcome' into your Life...I think that I may have failed to do that at times, as I was used to depending on myself and no one else...

One incident that really drove it home for me was when I had to have chemo and underestimated how sick I would be...As I was used to doing with all of my surgeries and treatments, I would drive myself there and back, and proceeded to do so that time as well...

It took me about 3.5 hours for what was a 1/2 hr drive, because I kept having to stop to throw up....

I had been seeing this guy for about 8 months at the time, and although he was at work that day, he had asked me to call him when I was done if I felt too bad to drive myself home, but even though he OFFERED, I just didn't want him to miss work, and then have to go and get my car the next day, etc. so I didn't....
Turns out he was keeping track and was REALLY worried when he didnt hear from me in a reasonable amount of time and by the time I spoke to him he was frantic!!
As I said, I was feeling awful and was pretty pissed at the lecture I was getting about how I 'should have called him' and so on....
I did try to explain that for me it has always been important, no, VITAL to NOT ever be dependent and I had explained why....But eventually, we parted ways, due to more of the same....
I DID learn from that though....

@ Igor...can;t even FATHOM the kind of relationship that you describe, as in the 'needy couple'....I just could not ever allow myself to get that dependent on ANYONE....That would be too treacherous for me....

What I'm aiming for, when I AM aiming for something...lol is to know that we are each able to deal with ourselves and our own stuff, but as a team, we are that much stronger....
And, as bucs mentioned, I believe that;s an ongoing 'conversation' that happens throughout the relationship....
@TK...Damn!!! Wish i had seen your post before writing my own long, rambling diatribe!!! LOL
Well put on the needing a specific person v needing to have A person.....
 justdeb1111
Joined: 8/12/2012
Msg: 73
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/12/2015 10:38:47 PM

... and I realized that was my self-protection, as whenever I 'needed' anybody, they went away..


I read so many posts by PoF'ers who seem to be eternally single that I can't help but think we've erected impenetrable shields around that delicate part of our self.

It's funny, when we are young and have so many years ahead of us we are in such a hurry to find someone, but when we are older and twilight is creeping in, we hesitate, throwing up half a million conditions of participation. Even when the obvious answer is right in front of us, some can't see past long ago regrets, "should have beens" and the idealized fantasies they've acquired like barnacles over the years.

The good thing is that if even a diamond can shatter with the lightest "ping" at the right point, then impenetrable shields can not be....impenetrable. What would happen if such a thing came to past--shields down, vulnerability open but nothing destroyed, quite the opposite, which can be equally jarring. Would they still run?
 sigungq
Joined: 1/4/2013
Msg: 74
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/14/2015 6:28:35 PM

Dee4166 wrote:

Interdependence is basically synonymous with the word synergy...

I posted the definition at the beginning of the thread....just so everybody was clear on the definition....

Here is the definition of synergy.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

I'm asking as to whether people feel that it is something that is important to have in a primary relationship, or whether remaining totally independent is a better way to go in your opinion....


Having never had synergy with anyone as an adult, this is a difficult question for me to answer. From the standpoint of independence, I can say that I do not believe that anyone really needs to have a synergistic relationship with anyone else, bit (speaking personally) it would be nice to have something to contrast that independence with.
 _shakti_
Joined: 2/22/2014
Msg: 75
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/16/2015 3:59:30 PM
Cool thread idea, I haven't read all the responses though, lol.

One of the MAIN things that I've heard from men at the end of relationships is that they never felt like I 'needed' them...
Same. One bf straight out asked if I needed him? I didn't think the question was a big deal, so without thinking, I was honest and said no. I don't think I've ever seen such a stricken look on a man's face, wow. And tbh, I had no idea how important that is to a man.

I think for me the main component was choosing scenarios where I was the one needed. Relied upon. That way I could feel strong and in control. Then I could be vulnerable, but on my terms (which isn't even truly vulnerable). That's not to say that I didn't love or care about them. I felt that I was choosing them, wasn't that enough? I still don't entirely get that, but who knows.. maybe it'll slap me in the face one day.

I tend to love in a more non-attached way though, so that sense of freedom/independence is inherent. But I have historically not allowed myself to become dependent upon a man. Not financially, or in any way, shape or form. If I felt them trying to make it go that way, I would steer it in a different direction. To me they were wanting control, and I couldn't have that. I think in many cases I was correct, but not in all. Such reactions become knee-jerk. But awareness is power..

I've changed so much over the years, I'm kind of intrigued as to how I'll be in an actual (as opposed to on/off distant) relationship. I do know that I reach out to others more now, and I know which people I can actually rely upon. Those who are capable of actual reciprocity and who also know how to take care of their own needs. Who know that they are responsible for their own feelings, just as I am of mine. But who still care and offer support when needed. Those are the ones with whom true interdependence is possible. So your own inner balance and emotional maturity is key, as well as discernment in choosing another on a similar level. I don't believe that interdependence is an ideal to shoot for, though that may help. But rather, a natural outgrowth of reaching a certain peace within.. regardless of what is manifesting without.
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