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 xlr8ingme
Joined: 3/16/2015
Msg: 76
Independence VS InterdependancePage 4 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
I was discussing this issue with my brother; he is a few years older. He brought up some valid points about the way he feels. Most women today are successful, independent, and educated. In these days of gender equality, needing a man (except for companionship or child bearing), isn't a priority. Most men still have a deep desire to feel needed. Therefore he is attracted to less successful women.

He says Im too hard headed, and independent to let myself need a man. He might just be right, and that's why Im still single.
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 77
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/17/2015 3:20:44 AM

One bf straight out asked if I needed him? I didn't think the question was a big deal, so without thinking, I was honest and said no. I don't think I've ever seen such a stricken look on a man's face, wow. And tbh, I had no idea how important that is to a man.


I'm feelin' you....


I think for me the main component was choosing scenarios where I was the one needed. Relied upon. That way I could feel strong and in control. Then I could be vulnerable, but on my terms


Still with you....


(which isn't even truly vulnerable)


You lost me here....lol Not even sure how you'd be vulnerable NOT on your terms?


That's not to say that I didn't love or care about them. I felt that I was choosing them, wasn't that enough? I still don't entirely get that, but who knows.. maybe it'll slap me in the face one day.


Still struggle with that, myself...


But I have historically not allowed myself to become dependent upon a man. Not financially, or in any way, shape or form. If I felt them trying to make it go that way, I would steer it in a different direction. To me they were wanting control, and I couldn't have that. I think in many cases I was correct, but not in all. Such reactions become knee-jerk. But awareness is power..


Yup...yup....and sometimes the VERY thought of 'depending' on a man was enough to make my stomach twist into knots....


Those who are capable of actual reciprocity and who also know how to take care of their own needs. Who know that they are responsible for their own feelings, just as I am of mine. But who still care and offer support when needed. Those are the ones with whom true interdependence is possible. So your own inner balance and emotional maturity is key, as well as discernment in choosing another on a similar level.


It can be very difficult to find people like that I've discovered.


I don't believe that interdependence is an ideal to shoot for, though that may help. But rather, a natural outgrowth of reaching a certain peace within.. regardless of what is manifesting without.


Not sure what you're getting at here, exactly...

For me the goal IS interdependence... Where we each know that we can take care of ourselves just fine, but wish to be able to rely on the other interchangeably...Nobody is ALWAYS in the lead or in control etc. We each can and DO take on different roles depending on our capability at the time....

@xlr8ingme...See, now I have heard that more than once...you should ask him what being 'needed' actually MEANS to him...Might be interesting to know...from the horse's mouth so to speak....
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 78
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/17/2015 6:14:44 AM
"It's funny, when we are young and have so many years ahead of us we are in such a hurry to find someone, but when we are older and twilight is creeping in, we hesitate, throwing up half a million conditions of participation. Even when the obvious answer is right in front of us, some can't see past long ago regrets, "should have beens" and the idealized fantasies they've acquired like barnacles over the years. "

>>>its ironic when we're young enough for our parents to take care of us and our physical needs (let's assume that is the case, tho for some of course, even that doesn't happen), we most seek out others to give us company. I'll assume its a combination of not having found ourselves yet, so we have more need, and needing as many "human mirrors" as possible to know ourselves by the reactions we get from others (Are we funny or offensive? nice or faking it? etc).

as we get older, we may get more cynical by those in the past who burned us.or we may decide its our fault, we chose them. but we might get to know ourselves better, and decide...we don't need people so much. that may sound pessimistic, but we may just learn to love our own selves more than we did before, and need to do less trading for (what seems like) love.

some people have shields up b/c they still operate in "What's in it for me?" mode. they're still trying to trade fading looks for security. or fading security for companionship. age takes away the superficial. and leaves the real behind. alas, for some, they haven't figured out what the "real" is yet. and sometimes, that's the simple reason they haven't found love--they aren't sure what it really looks like. they just know the TV version that happens in an hour or a half hour.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 79
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/18/2015 7:30:00 AM
I think if there is no interdependence a relationship is doomed. My ex was a railroad engineer so in the best of circumstances there was a lot of time that I functioned like a single mom. That coupled with his not joining us on activities or whatever when he was home, we just started functioning like he didn't exist. He was dependent on me but the only thing I could count on him for was doing something maybe that I was physically not strong enough to do. Realistically if we'd stayed together I'd really have had no use for him once the boys were old enough to do man things.

And I don't think it is surrendering your independence to let someone do things or to do things for someone else, that is how we show our affection and continually support that connection. It is not done because someone else can't it is done because you can.
 _shakti_
Joined: 2/22/2014
Msg: 80
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/18/2015 7:31:51 AM


I think for me the main component was choosing scenarios where I was the one needed. Relied upon. That way I could feel strong and in control. Then I could be vulnerable, but on my terms (which isn't even truly vulnerable)
You lost me here....lol Not even sure how you'd be vulnerable NOT on your terms?
If it's always on your terms, then you are still in control.. and thus, how can that be truly vulnerable?


I don't believe that interdependence is an ideal to shoot for, though that may help. But rather, a natural outgrowth of reaching a certain peace within.. regardless of what is manifesting without.
Not sure what you're getting at here, exactly....
Shooting for an intellectual ideal is fine, though I don't believe that ultimately gets you there. If you still have internal work to do, negative patterns to rid yourself of.. well, you'll just keep repeating them, no matter what intellectual ideal you subscribe to.

Whereas if your focus is letting go of such things so that you can find true inner balance and harmony, then interdependence with another/others will simply be a natural outgrowth of your own internal state.
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 81
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/18/2015 7:40:37 AM



when we are older and twilight is creeping in, we hesitate, throwing up half a million conditions of participation



This really got my attention.

Twilight. The 2 minute warning has sounded...

Is THIS how it all ends?
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 82
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/18/2015 8:11:40 AM
or if you believe in reincarnation, perhaps its how it begins :)
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 83
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/18/2015 4:07:40 PM

If it's always on your terms, then you are still in control.. and thus, how can that be truly vulnerable?


Well...for me personally, I DON'T allow myself to be vulnerable if I don't feel that I'm in a safe environment....for example.

I don't really feel that being vulnerable means losing 'control' so much as feeling that you are safe enough from judgment and ridicule or even simple invalidation of your feelings that you can risk being who you truly ARE with another person. It's a basic requirement for intimacy, but imo, shouldn't happen if you DON'T have some measure of control =feeling safe.


Shooting for an intellectual ideal is fine, though I don't believe that ultimately gets you there. If you still have internal work to do, negative patterns to rid yourself of.. well, you'll just keep repeating them, no matter what intellectual ideal you subscribe to.


Well yes, you're right there, but not everybody hasn't dealt with those patterns....Mine are no longer an issue, and interdependence to me is much more than just an intellectual ideal...it's a practical reality that I would like to have, and I know what it looks like as I HAVE seen couples that have it.
They are the ones who, when widowed, tend to be ok eventually and manage to go on and not just exist, but really LIVE their lives...


Whereas if your focus is letting go of such things so that you can find true inner balance and harmony, then interdependence with another/others will simply be a natural outgrowth of your own internal state.


I DO get that you have to balanced yourself in order to have that in your Life....That's on a more spiritual level as in the Universe tends to bring things into our lives when we're 'ready' for them....Or maybe we're ready and attract them....
Good stuff shakti...it makes me think ....


some people have shields up b/c they still operate in "What's in it for me?" mode. they're still trying to trade fading looks for security. or fading security for companionship. age takes away the superficial. and leaves the real behind. alas, for some, they haven't figured out what the "real" is yet. and sometimes, that's the simple reason they haven't found love--they aren't sure what it really looks like. they just know the TV version that happens in an hour or a half hour.


Uh huh.....well said....
 sigungq
Joined: 1/4/2013
Msg: 84
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/18/2015 6:57:06 PM

_shakti_ wrote:

One bf straight out asked if I needed him? I didn't think the question was a big deal, so without thinking, I was honest and said no. I don't think I've ever seen such a stricken look on a man's face, wow. And tbh, I had no idea how important that is to a man.


Hey Shak!! I think you may be on to something here. Men feel that women don't need them anymore. I think this is contributing to the absence of marriage today. Since the young men feel this way, instead of going out, finding a woman, courting her, and marrying her, they feel it's just better to sit at home, drink beer, watch porn, and play video games. Kind of a sad state of affairs really. I'm not saying it's right mind you, just acknowledging the way it is.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 85
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/18/2015 8:47:09 PM

Maybe I'm going to change up the question a little.....

How about, do you actually look for a person who has strengths and weaknesses that compliment your own?

If you are actively looking for a partner, are you aware of what you 'need' as far as a complimentary person as a partner goes?

I have learned from those prior experiences with men that stated they didn't feel needed enough that for me it was a matter of finding someone who shares my own values, that quantity of time, ie. living in each others back pocket is NOT equivalent or even comparable to quality of time, spent together....

I learned that someone who is looking to be 'always' in a dominant position or even a subservient one, is NOT for me, that I need to be with someone who is capable of 'switching it up' as necessary...and who can let go of control as well as take the reins when needed....

It IS a tricky balance and I guess you're right Charm...it would depend on the people involved....and what they know of their own strengths and weaknesses....


This is getting to be the Best Thread Ever.

"Quality Time."

Another of the modern era Core Phrases For Relationship Descriptions. As with all such concepts, it can be as dangerous as it is illuminating. It's on my list of Basic Things I Want To Have, But Never Want To Hear My Significant Other Mention. Because it's another one of those things where if you're talking about it, you aren't having it. Right up there with all the the "If You Have To Ask, The Answer Is The One You Don't Want" questions.

In my experience, what makes a moment "Quality Time" isn't what you're doing together. That can be anything from a grand adventure wherein fantastic dreams are realized, to looking up from my notebook scribbling to enjoy the fact that she's fallen asleep on the couch, and is making noises like a backhoe that missed it's last two oil changes, and being able to moon over the fact that she's all mine.

What makes it "quality time" is, at the bottom of it all, a result of faith, really. Faith that I'm in the right place for that moment, doing the right thing to do then and there, combined with faith that SHE is feeling the same thing. Whether we are together in the same space or not, and whether we're scaling the Eiffel Tower, or scraping the fungus out of the bathroom.

I think that's why I wont try to quantify anything.
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 86
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/18/2015 9:01:31 PM
Hmmm.....

Quality Time.

Time you have to pursue your own sh!t and her hers.

Maybe she quilts and I build a kick a$$ oil cooled computer.

Or...

Maybe that Quality Time is the time you both spend thanking each other for the space you've given each other.

YMMV
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/19/2015 4:07:19 AM
...a little late to this party, sorry. Also sorry for the long post. Please don't throw eggs and vegetables at me.

Whenever these things have been talked about in here before, one of the things which I began to do was explain my views in terms of a comparison between relationships, with a lower-case 'r', and Relationships, with an upper-case 'R'. This is not to make the one superior to the other, but from a lack of any better way to differentiate between them in threads where people would talk about their glorified NSA FWB situations as if they were real Relationships, when people were trying to talk about their relationship concerns. I've also began to describe a real Relationship as one in which two people's lives are intertwined in particular respects. I think that things are really bad concerning attitudes about love and Relationships. To demonstrate this, look at something that someone will say on their profile:

"I don't want a relationship. They hold you back. I want a best friend I can sleep with, make love to, hustle with, travel with, shop with, chill with & live with. I want a partner in crime, a life partner. Someone I can laugh with & build with.
Somebody I can trust with my heart, my money, & my life. Somebody I'm not afraid to lose because I know they will always be there. Relationships aren't for me but a partnership, I'll take that."


Exactly how messed up does someone's views of what a Relationship is have to be in order for them to say this? What do they think a Relationship is, if it's not this?

if I want a relationship then I have to learn how to be inTERdependent rather than independent.


it's more that I allow myself to NEED someone else


I've heard from men at the end of relationships is that they never felt like I 'needed' them


It was explained that I was rarely if ever, vulnerable


they often felt like if they left my Life tomorrow that I would probably not miss them much

I likewise think that we can get too lost between COdependency, INTERdependence, and INdependence...because we're so freaking worried about our so-called independence, freedom, and identity, that we forget what a Relationship really is and how wonderful it can really be, instead of thinking of it as something which requires us to sacrifice something important or is such a burden. On this note - yes, in a relationship, you are interdependent, and that's not supposed to be a bad or difficult thing. I'd also use "two lives being intertwined" to describe this.

I also think that a person can make too much fuss over the concept of need. Instead of allowing yourself to need someone, I'd say to allow yourself to depend upon them. And I don't think that it's even an issue of depending-upon either, let alone needing. But instead, in a Relationship, two people's lives are intertwined in certain respects, including having a common goal and direction, as if two were one entity, and there is one life, instead of two lives. Therefore something else is going on instead of the one-dimensional dynamic of "needing" or "depending upon"...

...and that is the part where many people lose their minds, and get turned-off. They think that it means losing their individuality, identity, and some mysterious independence. But to me, that thinking just doesn't jive.

I don't think that it's at all about "being vulnerable" either. That also seems irrelevant to me, either way...vulnerable or not vulnerable...not even a factor.

When it's said by OP that someone feels like they wouldn't hardly be missed if they left, it makes me think of how part of what is happening (with some) when people are so concerned with their individuality, identity, and independence...is a certain indifference. Almost like "we can be together in such-and-such ways. But I don't really care, and don't really care about you. I can do without you, so it doesn't matter." It's not about whether or not you can do something yourself, or do or don't need the other person to do something. It's not about needing them because you can't be alone. It's not about letting yourself be vulnerable (whatever that means in this context). Instead, it's simply about actually wanting to actually share your life, and the experience of living, with someone else, and also caring about that other person. You do this with someone else because you want to, and you want to because you know what a Relationship is and you want that, and see it as an up-grade in your self-story and experience instead of as having to give up something.

Tarnished_Knight:

Once the larger candle is lit and burning bright the couple then sets their STILL lit candle near but not prominent to the larger candle. The symbolism is that the couple is bigger and more important than the individuals, but that the individuals are still essential. When I see some ceremonies in which the couple blow out their individual candles i want to jump out of my seat and protest.
The individuals are still there, the relationship is synergistic not oppressive.

I don't think that this means that a relationship is oppressive. And I don't think that it's supposed to mean that the two individuals suddenly ceased to be individuals or important.

LadyEssKay/Dee4166:

I'm just used to doing it myself, and therefore, to have someone do something that I can do myself, makes me feel like a burden of sorts


just allowing the other person the 'room' to help or to jump into the leadership role for a bit

the difficulty comes when I'm in the position of NOT having to make all of the big decisions

Maybe it's not about any leadership roles, or who's in charge. And not being-able or not-being-able. It's just about two people doing. Being a team. No one is in charge in a team. Doing life together, not worrying about if they "need" the other or can be "independent". It's about something else wholly different than all of these conerns, and I think that an understanding of it is getting lost in some areas of society.

IgorFrankensteen:

What an excellent thread subject. Thank you for opening this.

I think this is one of the most fundamental of areas of concern and of confusion in human relationships

I second that. When these kinds of things have come up before, they didn't seem to be very productive. I think that this was opened up in a better direction.

One of the prime confusions, comes in mixing up or conflating "need" with "devotion," or with "dedication."

I think that most people who claim that they want to feel "needed," are actually trying to say something else. That's where the real problem lies.

I suspect that most of the time, someone who says they want to feel "needed," actually means that they want it to matter more to you that they are there

Yes. That's getting even warmer. But even this can be painted negatively. Some people see something wrong with devoting themselves to another and a Relationship, or they value their so-called alone-time so much that they aren't capable of enjoying the sharing of life-experiences with another person intimately.

xlr8ingme:

Are any of us willing to give up enough control of our lives to have a healthy interdependent relationship?

I feel that it has nothing at all to do with having or giving up control. It's about intertwining your life with another. Transending to a higher experience of living, to a higher state of being, joining another to become a higher single entity. "Control" both takes on a different meaning, and is also not even relevant.

The different experience of living life in a Relationship that I'm trying to elucidate makes whatever things that people think that they have to "sacrifice" seem trivial...it's like worrying about giving up or missing the inside of your house if you walk out the front door into the world and do things outside. It makes no sense to me. I don't care how awesome the inside of your house is, or that you don't need to go outside because you have everything delivered...the outside world has more, and is so much better - you don't automatically give up your house to go there, and your house doesn't compare to what's out in the rest of the world.

Vicki159:

...but when the children arrived the roles changed. I had to depend on him and that didnt work very well...decisions where based on meeting hes needs and didnt account for the childrens or mine...

This would just be a case when maybe you didn't really have a Relationship, and/or he was an idiot and was in a whole other place...he wasn't really tied to you and the common life that you two were having together.

...Id never put myself in that situation again...

It's unfortunate that there are all of the different bad experiences that we can think of, when it didn't work out well for different reasons or the connections between the two persons were unhealthy or weren't the right reasons, and this is what makes people so confused and afraid of a Relationship. They weren't together for the right reasons or just weren't ready for a real Relationship because they didn't really understand what they are and don't really want one.

Just to speak of the whole "need" or "depend upon" issue...one of the things which can give one a distaste for Relationships is either an abuse or a lack of basic "caring"...

I've had a practical stranger abuse the "need" dynamic by doing something for me that I didn't really need and I didn't ask for, almost forcing me to let them do it...and then later act as if I were obligated - telling me that they did such-and-such for me so it's disrepectful for me to not do this other thing for them.

And then once I had a friend - we really were friends such that we helped each other out in certain respects. And then one day out of the blue, for some odd reason, I needed him to help me with something, and he refused. He wasn't unable to help me out, but he refused. Befuddled, with no better way to express it at the moment, I mentioned how I'd done this and this and this for him...and he said something like "that doesn't obligate me. There was no agreement between us along these lines." That was completely counter to how we'd been behaving with each other up to that point. So, the understanding that I formed at that moment about such things is that, ok, you're not automatically obligated to do anything for me just because I'd done something for you. However, if that is a person's attitude, it just means that we don't actually have a friendship. Note taken. I'll adjust how I interact with you accordingly.

In that friendship, it wasn't about me obligating him or keeping a score. But it was about having an actual friendship...meaning that the two people want to help each other out here and there. Nothing more complicated than that. If you're not wanting to, then fine. Let's not pretend that we have a friendship.

It is similar for Relationships.

Ladyinred4755:

Over the past several years, I learned, that just because I CAN do it all, I don't WANT to, nor do I NEED to do everything for myself.
Very early on in my relationship with my BF, I explained to him, "I'm strong, independent and don't need a man to take care of me. However, I also realize I no longer need to be, THE ONE to take care of everything. I will happily let you help me, do things for me, open doors for me, help me with my coat, change the mud flaps on my truck and change the gear mechanism in the garage door, etc, etc. For everything you do for me, I will be happy to tell you AND show you how much I appreciate what you do for me".

It's almost a thrill for me to even just grocery shop with a girlfriend. Who is in control or making the decisions is so ridiculously irrelevant. Either of us being able to do it independently is so ridiculously irrelevant. Each of us depending or not depending upon the other duing this task, needing or not needing the other, is so ridiculously not relevant to anything at all. It is simply and profoundly fun. For it's own sake. And is very intimate. We don't think about who is smarter or more capable of grocery shopping, and we don't do any "pretend to need you" crap, nor being smug because one thought of something before the other one but didn't "speak up". Even if one of us were to have to shop alone for the both of us, it is not a chore to consider the other person, but a joy. And at no time does one of us think about the other "needing" or having a problem with their "independence" while one is shopping for the both of us.

IgorFrankensteen:

Too long to re-post...messages 49, 52, 61

God, that stuff applies to so many things, and is what I preach about so much in my own way in other threads. Those posts should be re-read and contemplated.

A need is like an addiction: no one loves what they need, it's against human nature

On the other hand, and despite what I've said above...I think that even needing, or depending upon, another person has been given a very inaccurate and undeserved reputation. Many very healthy and successful relationships...wherein the two individuals really do need each other and depend upon each other...exist all of the time. People are so afraid of this sh!t like it was some kind of disease - as if certain experiences of others of needing or depending-upon were intrinsic. They are not intrinsic. And I don't feel that needing something is intrinsically what leads to you hating it, whenever that happens.

Dee4166:

Maybe I'm going to change up the question a little.....

How about, do you actually look for a person who has strengths and weaknesses that compliment your own?

Not necessarilly. Firstly, again, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with complimenting each other's needs...to make practical concerns a criteria of your Relationship. But secondly, a Relationship isn't even always defined by needing as opposed to just wanting to intertwine your life with another.

chameleonf:

There are so many people who figure you have to live with someone and do all things with them in order for it to be some kind of meaningful relationship. Often those people seem to just be doing things by rote, i.e. being in the same house, doing the same mundane things and rarely speaking to each other - just being together because they are afraid to be/live alone

I feel that doing this is what makes a Relationship. Except when it is as you describe here. When it's like this, that just means that they're not together for the right reasons, don't understand what it's really all about, and/or don't really want it in the first place. And this is one of the cases that we think of when we want to have a negative view of what a Relationship intrinsically is.

On the other hand, you can have people who are in long-term relationships, don't feel the need for living together, and yet they are very focussed on each other and about each other when they are together - for years.

Yes. Like that.

bucsgirl:

We don't cease being US just because we are half of a couple.

Correct. When it's right, of course.

Tarnished_Knight:

there is the need for a specific person in your life vs. the need to HAVE a person in your life.

Sometimes the language that a person uses is pounced upon inaccurately by those who have such a problem with the idea of a Relationship because they're unreasonably worried about their independence, identity, and freedom. Someone will speak of the "pain of being single", or how they "miss the person" that they haven't found yet. And then they'll be taken as not being able to be alone or have any happiness, identity, or meaning as a single person. This is sometimes the case, but very often it's just that the person in question understands the wonderfulness of that higher state-of-being and they've chosen to make it a goal and value in their life.

I was happy as a clam in my singleness going to university, working, playing; and even though I dated I had not committed to any one woman. However, when I did marry and make that social, physical and spiritual commitment I found a level of contentment I had not known before.

I am a better man for that interrelationship and it fills a void otherwise left empty. This is not just about physical intimacy, though that is important, but the sort of emotional/spiritual intimacy that transects walls, lays waste barriers, opens vistas otherwise unattainable to those committed to being single.

Oh yea. That's what I'm talking about. Word up my brother.

_shakti_

One bf straight out asked if I needed him? I didn't think the question was a big deal, so without thinking, I was honest and said no. I don't think I've ever seen such a stricken look on a man's face, wow. And tbh, I had no idea how important that is to a man.

That's not something which is important to men. Nor women. But certain kinds of people, male and female, versus other kinds of people.

Was this an indifference towards the relationship, or thinking that you needed to declare that you were able to be independent? Or maybe both?

I think for me the main component was choosing scenarios where I was the one needed. Relied upon. That way I could feel strong and in control. Then I could be vulnerable, but on my terms (which isn't even truly vulnerable).

I'd consider the possibility that being vulnerable isn't even supposed to be part of it anyway. Or who needs who. Or that this is a wholly wrong reason to even get into a relationship, or indicates a wholly different intention for having one. Maybe the reasons for even wanting a relationship are all wrong, and how it's approached is all wrong.

But I'll add that the rest of what you say in this post is a good evolution of your attitude on the matter.

xlr8ingme:

I was discussing this issue with my brother; he is a few years older. He brought up some valid points about the way he feels. Most women today are successful, independent, and educated. In these days of gender equality, needing a man (except for companionship or child bearing), isn't a priority. Most men still have a deep desire to feel needed. Therefore he is attracted to less successful women.

On the broader scale, again this isn't something that only men are concerned with. And also it may not be a matter of "needing", though that language is used. Unfortunately though, when you think of it with that language, if it wasn't true it becomes true. So, when people's attitudes towards all of this become affected by their success or lack of, that shows that they don't know what it really is and don't want or not-want it for applicable reasons.

_shakti_/Dee4166:


I don't believe that interdependence is an ideal to shoot for, though that may help. But rather, a natural outgrowth of...
Not sure what you're getting at here, exactly...

For me the goal IS interdependence

I think that she's just suggesting another way to arrange the concepts or dynamics, or another way to just say it...that interdependence would just come about "naturally" because of how two people relate and interact, versus purposely trying to design an interdependence for it's own sake. However, I also agree that the interdependence is the point...don't know which way I'd jump on this one. Might just be a case of us digging too deep in moot or inconsequential fashion.

The-next-step:

It could be argued that a good relationship can be described as
Gestalt, where the whole that is greater sum of its parts

Yep. The two parts need to let go of a false idea of what happens (when it's right, of course) and stop thinking of it as a down-grade, but instead as the up-grade that it is.

packagedealx3:

I think if there is no interdependence a relationship is doomed.

And I don't think it is surrendering your independence to let someone do things or to do things for someone else, that is how we show our affection and continually support that connection. It is not done because someone else can't it is done because you can.

I agree with this.
 xlr8ingme
Joined: 3/16/2015
Msg: 88
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/19/2015 9:53:17 AM
^With all of your wisdom in relationship advice, you must have a life long healthy relationship. Power to your significant other for you both being able to be so happy together :)
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 89
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/24/2015 10:27:19 AM
"Maybe I'm going to change up the question a little.....

How about, do you actually look for a person who has strengths and weaknesses that compliment your own?

If you are actively looking for a partner, are you aware of what you 'need' as far as a complimentary person as a partner goes?"

To address the first question, this goes back to the very basics IMO. I will qualify (and possibly unintentionally complicate) by adding in the caveat that many people are NOT the best assessors of their own strengths and weaknesses. If you don't have good information, you won't get good results (DUH!). I will speak for myself and say that I don't get along well with men who are domineering, tend to jealous in the LEAST or those who want to spend every spare minute together. I am aware of that, have relationship history for proof. You can say it goes back to what are your dealbreakers, what are your must haves and what are your would likes. Problem with that it is that the illusive chemistry, spark, attraction, all that good stuff doesn't always fit so neatly into given parameters. I think it's good to be aware of and keep things in mind, but ticking off a list in your head never trumps being in the moment with someone and giving them your full attention, whatever happens as a result. I don't know about you, but I can't pay attention to someone and be running off some checklist in my head at the same time. I can multitask but I save that skill for work situations.

As far as needs, I think if most of us are living on our own, what we NEED from someone else should be fairly minimal as far as our physical needs, emotionally, humans have basic needs to feel accepted and to be known. I think that's elevated in a romantic relationship, my partner needs to accept me fully, even those things he may not like as much, and vice versa. Also, that person should know me better than anyone else.

I think we can navel gaze and pontificate on all this, or we can go meet people and try to enjoy our time the best we can. I'm not saying don't spend any time thinking through things, but I do believe you can overthink.

To repeat and agree with Igor.....I don't think you can or should try to quantify some things. Also, I think that when you're happily involved, independence and interdependence isn't a common topic of conversation, per se. You may discuss dividing up chores, finances, spending free time, etc. without it being categorized as such.
 justdeb1111
Joined: 8/12/2012
Msg: 90
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/24/2015 2:17:23 PM
Ok....I've come out of PoF retirement to just to post here.

Somewhere within any Love Story....there will be pain. But I will always believe that the pain is a small price to pay for Love.


I will also go so far as to add to that and say that pain IS an integral part of Love...You can't have one without the other as a human, knowing that our time is limited and finite....

Says who? Since when is pain an accepted part of anything? Jeez, if you're in emotional pain, you are either with the wrong person or aren't communicating for whatever reason. Misunderstanding and resultant misconceptions cause pain--don't blame that on love.

But it is DEFINITELY worth it, and for me the loss part reminded me of just how precious it was....and how lucky I was to have experienced it....

How lucky to have experienced pain associated with some attraction that did not work out? Nope nope nope. If it is love, there is no pain. Period. Nada.

I can't remember where I read it, but someone said if your palms get sweaty, and you can't speak, heart pounding, etc, when you are in the presence of someone of the opposite sex, it ain't love. Love is calm, deep, profound and sneaks up on you from...omg--FRIENDSHIP. If you are truly comfortable, compatible and communicate, there is no pain--just marvelous, deep, wondrous growth, understanding, companionship...that doesn't end till death parts you. Yup, I said the "Fr" word, I'm insane, I know it but in 61 years I've had one relationship that could have gone on forever--ended because our families are different religions. Some can work around that but I'd never wish someone to become forever shunned by their family simply because of me.

There is no pain from that memory, a bit of grief, but never, ever pain.

Back to books and off PoF--couldn't shut up for this one, though had to post. Oh and to the naysayers that are going to try to cut this down--you've never been in loved AND loved at the same time.

Deal with it.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 91
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/24/2015 5:43:53 PM
I agree at least in part with what justdeb says. I don't think it's inevitable that pain is a NECESSARY part of love. Pain, IMO results from either hurt or loss. It's true that only those who you care about can truly hurt you, and sometimes unintentionally, but that should be something that is brief and can be dealt with and overcome. I don't see that temporary type of hurt as pain, it's like stubbing your toe it hurts a bit then you forget about it. If two people love each other, then any hurt or slight, whatever it is, should be able to be taken care of and if there is not upfront communication (versus hanging onto until it devolves into bitterness) and forgiveness, it should be handled, and moved past.

If a relationship is causing pain that either can't be taken care of, forgiven or moved past, then there is likely to develop the deeper pain of loss of the relationship. Both people however, need to be fully "in it" and not hold onto selfish or prideful baggage that may threaten or end a relationship. Wounds that are not treated fester, get worse and can lead to something much more damaging....even death (loss).

So temporary pain can happen but is not a requirement of love.
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 92
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/25/2015 2:36:47 AM
Ok there Deb...take a deep breath...LOL

What I MEANT by saying that pain is an integral part of love was that eventually no matter WHAT, the relationship WILL end...No matter HOW much that you may love your partner...

I come from a place where I experienced a LOT of loss to Death of very important people in my Life at a very early age....

Having experienced that so young when I really didn't have the emotional or psychological resources to deal with it and was surrounded by emotionally crippled adults who couldn't even deal with their OWN feelings, never mind MINE....well, let's just say that made me feel quite apprehensive about going out there in the world and just LOVING people, willy-nilly...

I learned early in Life that to love meant that you would ultimately experience PAIN at the inevitable loss of the loved 'object', because MY perspective was that everything DIES and/or goes away, inevitably....

If your 'love' is ALWAYS inextricably intertwined with pain, in the way that YOU describe, that is much more often a sign of a co-dependant relationship....As in those folks who are always cheating on their partner and the partner takes them back, and it's a BIG drama, and then a period of 'calm' which lasts until the NEXT big drama....and so on...People mistake INTENSITY for INTIMACY all of the TIME....So no, that is NOT what I was talking about....

Really, it's just about the fact that love, like Life, is finite, and WILL have an end...If you're lucky, maybe it will last a Lifetime, and I am envious of those people who CAN love others and never even THINK of the impending loss...But, as I said for ME, loss will ALWAYS be a , much smaller part these days, of loving another living being....

And, I'll even go so far as to say that the knowledge of the finiteness of love IS what can make it so much more precious....Sort of like having the knowledge of our own Death someday, adding to the 'spice' of Life.....

If the pain of loss was NOT a part of loving others, I think that we would probably have a LOT less sappy love songs, no? LOL
 kj521
Joined: 8/8/2012
Msg: 93
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/25/2015 4:39:03 AM
Ms. Dee....

Great post! I think you and I have much in common. I also learned early in life the pain that comes with the loss of loving someone.

It taught me to be careful with my heart and my commitments......but when I did.....I didn't do it half way....I was all in.

Because I knew the price that would eventually have to be paid....
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 94
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Posted: 4/25/2015 4:57:50 AM
Yup...you hit the nail on the head there for me Kj.....

I, too, take a LONG time to trust and love people...but when I do I am FIERCE about that love AND loyalty....Saw that when I went up against my sister regarding her OWN son one day...

She took someone else's word that he had done something wrong, and she believed it regardless of what kind of person that she KNEW her son to be....
I told her that I didn't believe it and I was right....

I am the same way about friends that I love as well as an SO....

Once went out with a guy who used the not so subtle 'put down' when relating to me...Mostly because he felt inadequate as I later found out....
Point is that I just couldn't comprehend WHY he would do that to someone that he professed to 'love'????
Realized that he had some major issues from his family of origin that he had never worked through....so that was the end of that!!!

I have NEVER had any past relationship/friendship/family that ended due to a lack of 'love' on my part, or to not knowing about that love....
I DO take the risk to love and I do it often as possible....It's just NOT nor ever has been a just add water and mix kinda deal for me, personally...and when it ends for whatever reason, well, it DOES hurt and for me, I don't think that there's anything wrong with feeling the pain of a loss....no matter what the circumstances....

Pain is a valid and important part of the human experience...Emotional pain, and I'm NOT talking about depression, here, will NOT kill you...We were built with these emotions, that come hard-wired from the factory, and I intend to use them as directed....LOL
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 95
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/27/2015 7:22:44 PM
This gets directly into what love actually is, and is not, I think. And we all know how big and hairy that whole subject is.

I think perhaps that some people only think of love in fairly narrow terms, as including a set of specific elements. Such devotion, sexual hunger, and mutual need. I expect that in youth especially, the idea that someone "needs" to be with you, is added in as a sort of wishful insurance that the very powerful youthful sexual hunger wont result in a mockery being made of the whole idea of love. And it works so well, like matching shoes, along side romantic fun ideas like "meant to be" and "made for each other."

Of course, once people mechanically craft and install the idea that sex and interpersonal activities are "needs," in hopes that this will result in reliable partnerships, it quickly gets forgotten that the idea of need, of dependence, is actually an artificial thing. The "insurance policy" becomes an end in and of itself. That causes it to backfire completely, as instead of insuring fidelity, it can actually increase the likelihood that the partner will see it as an excuse to give in to their lusts and hungers instead.

Perhaps these people who keep saying that true love requires that they be "needed" by their mate, are among those who have suffered enough to recognize that love can't insure any specific behaviors, but not enough to see through the fact that "needing" someone is actually not an accomplishment, nor desirable, and nor is it an actual essential component of real love, at all.
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/27/2015 8:19:54 PM
Yes, oh, yes...love, what it is, is so very misunderstood and butchered. Using a kind of reductionism, one can see that there is a very small number of simple, though profoundly consequential, elements which are the roots of all of our relationship and interpersonal difficulties. And this includes that element which is the fact that we are rarely aware of what these basic elements or roots even are. Understanding what love really is...is one of these few base elements.

...Doh!
 Dee4166
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 97
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Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/27/2015 11:31:47 PM
For myself, defining 'love' was an important thing to do, when I was younger....

Today, it's actually pretty simple for me, and I go by how Scott Peck defines it to keep it as simple as possible....

Love very simply means that I care about and will support another person's growth as a human being even if THAT TAKES THEM AWAY FROM ME....

So, simply put, as much as it may pain me if my SO would want to move to another country, say, for a terrific job opportunity or to learn a new facet of their job skills, etc. I would encourage them to go even IF it meant the end of the relationship between us....

Would I be happy about it? Probably not, but I would do it any way...

Because to me, loving someone means wanting them to be the best version of themselves possible and supporting them in their growth as a human being in this Life, in the best way that I know how....
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 98
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/28/2015 12:52:48 PM
whether the glass is half full, or fully full...it will eventually empty.

Only a fool refuses to drink. because one day it will be empty....
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/28/2015 1:39:13 PM


Understanding what love really is...is one of these few base elements.
Do you need to understand it? cant you just feel it, accept it and go with it?

Oooh, that right there is one of the things I mean. That's something that I run into sometimes. If I went on how this is worded, I'd say that you maybe have either a misunderstanding of it, or an undeveloped understanding.

Because, the answer to that question is Yes. It is not something which is outside of the realm of intellectual understanding nor is exclusively within the realm of emotion. Yes, you do need to understand it. You can definitely "feel" it, but you should not JUST "feel" it, and you should not just "accept it and go with it". That's a bad idea.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 100
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 4/28/2015 1:59:57 PM
I will wait for the movie, "Interdependence Day" to come out and compare it "Independence Day" to see the pros and cons of each.
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