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 newoldgirl
Joined: 4/16/2015
Msg: 176
Independence VS InterdependancePage 8 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)

Just because it isnt spoken about doesnt mean its not coming naturally.


" By age 15, almost 100% of boys and 25% of girls have masturbated to the point of orgasm. Estimates of the rate of adult masturbation are about 95-99% of men and 40-60% of women. "
^^^^^^^^

This is from a The University of Michigan Health Services website, however the same information is widely available. I would have thought it was common knowledge! Girls need way more information. A large percentage of young girls don't even want to wear a tampon because they don't want to "touch themselves down there. " Something is wrong with this picture.

I havent ever really spoke that much about it to my boys,

That's because you don't HAVE to. Boys figure that out right quick. Girls have more complex equipment .

Also, I dont particularly find it funny nor want to watch programmes with boys 'jerking off', programmes with girls doing it makes my hair stand on end.

I am not saying it's funny or isn't. I am saying it is widely discussed.


Yes young people are having sex and it seems with unabandoned joy I cant see any body shame, or sex shame and I would say that might be a little bit of the problem.


So you think it would be better if kids had "body shame" ?


Also, Id prefer to educate my children in that area with the preference I have for living I dont think schools should be doing it for me, how do they know what I want my children to learn.


What's stopping you from teaching them at home? Better yet, both parents should speak to girls and boys about the subject.

I don't know what it is like where you live, but where I live it is the responsibility of schools and teachers to deliver the curriculum as it is written by the Ministry of Education. That applies to Science, Mathematics, History, French....and Health Education. Sex Ed falls under Health. All the curricula are developed by people who work in Education and Government, in consultations with parents and students, and with field testing of the expectations over many years. So, no, parents don't get to pick what their children learn in Health Education any more than they get to pick what they learn in Math. They DO have an option. Schools are obliged to let parents know when these lessons are taking place, and parents can keep them home.


Then I would focus more on healthy/unhealthy relationships, respect for yourself, respect for others, assertiveness and making your own choices in life.


That is also a focus of the Health Curriculum, as it should be.
 clemtuckerofcourse
Joined: 5/7/2015
Msg: 177
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/11/2015 3:01:15 PM
Where I live, kids learn it early simply by watching the birds and the bees, the way God intended.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 178
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 6:30:41 AM
I was raised in the countryside, where indeed, every spring kids got to see the animals playing leapfrog. Some areas, however, still say sex is dirty, but other farmers think that sex is natural. Their kids seem to grow up with a healthier attitude about sex, that way. some turn into the "Farmers' daughters" stereotype seen on posters--comfortable with their sexiness and short shorts.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 179
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 8:16:29 AM

So if its a relationship your wanting and not just sex then you do have to say, I want a relationship and Im not having sex unless Im sure you want one.

There's a difference between letting it be known early on "I don't have sex until [such-and-such] time-frame," and leaving it at that VS ruining the mood by scorning the concept of doing too much too early -- expressing disdain about sex and "guys are bad", and a power trip of "men have to Earn it", on her dainty soapbox. You could make the same argument about holding hands. That would also kill a mood if they said a guy (or gal) had to "Earn it", and set a mood of "Oh, you like [this natural thing between you and I]? You have to earn it. You're not worthy yet. I've been hurt too many times." Now, a gal can get away with that with a guy who's had a big crush on her, when she's out of his league, or any other reason where being beyond platonic with a gal like herself was highly valued to him in the first place. But otherwise -- it's just a downer -- no thanks -- "get over your issues with dudes, lady" or "get off your high horse from a bad past" is what he'll be thinking -- while many will also be chasing said carrot like a dog would (wuff!), and then once eaten, very possibly walk away because She put him on that "mission". Again, it's NOT merely letting it be known, and leaving it at that, that she doesn't have sex until going steady or having been going steady for a while. It's the attitude, it's the carrot-and-stick Game, that *doesn't require him pushing any envelopes at all*. Which many times is an ego-boost to make up for her past bad experiences while also "testing" the guy. People already have enough of that on a 1st date or communication prior to 1st date. When those attitude/emotional problems end up loudly giving forth a Motif during the whole dating processes -- it ruins it.

So what your saying is, whether Johny gets sex or not hes still going to dump her.

No. First, that's not dumping. Dumping is from a Relationship -- not a date or two.

It's WHEN Johnny isn't interested in a girl -- but he seemed like he had some interest during that 1st date -- it's unfortunately too-often ASSUMED, no matter what happens, that he was just Interested in sex. It's actually better than thinking "Oh, I'm not good looking enough," or "I come off as annoying," or other red flags, etc. OH, he just wanted sex! Okay -- problem solved. Phew! And here I thought there could be a problem with me. What a relief! ;)

Not all women think that of course -- but too often too many will lean that way based on very very little, because it's easier to emotionally deal with. Unfortunately it just hardens the exaggerated concept that guys-just-want-sex -- which can end up holding her back and hurting her chances down the line at least a bit.

Since neither a gun nor a prison was used, the "being held hostage" was done with permission. If we stay with someone who keeps dangling the carrot--whether its a financial loan that never arrives from a family member wanting our attention, or its a sexual promise from someone who is worried they lose when they trade sex for love--we do so b/c we choose to.

In reference to what I was talking about, it's not an accusation of "being held hostage". My point was that it's a really bad strategy for a woman to employ -- because she'll be making a Game of it, indirectly, due to her concerns about men & the little ego-boost she can get from it (control) when it's expressed loudly (thus killing the mood for many guys, but hey, some guys will play the game of course). So she dangles the carrot and acts c0cky that she has a "prize". Not a good way to Avoid a guy really getting to know you. Many will lost respect, and some of them will follow thru on your 'game', bang you, and leave. It's a childish game that screams emotional problems. Instead, a gal should just let a guy know -- not out of soapbox pride by any means, but much the same way as her telling him she likes holding hands or doesn't like it so much in crowds, etc -- that she doesn't have sex until she starts going steady, has been going steady, or whatever that 'line' is, and leaving it at that. If she has to keep repeating it to him because he keeps forcing himself on her too early, then she should walk from him.
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 180
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 9:04:51 AM

it's unfortunately too-often ASSUMED, no matter what happens, that he was just Interested in sex. It's actually better than thinking "Oh, I'm not good looking enough," or "I come off as annoying," or other red flags, etc. OH, he just wanted sex!


This is very common. Even I have said and thought this, especially during the teens. One good reason why I highly advocate discussion about not only the birds and bees but the nitty gritty of sex and relationships of both genders when they start puberty and/or developing sexual interest.
When I started taking accountability for my decisions when and with whom I have sex, everything shifted. That sexual shame from upbringing diminished but I still had a long way to go.
Raising boys, watching and talking with them together and the pof forums, reading all the male posts led me to better understand things from THEIR perspective. I took what I learned and applied it to my own experiences which allowed me to "think like man". WOW, what an eye opener. Us women really do put you men through a ringer eh? lol ;P

Yes... we don't want to face the fact we have red flags so it's easier to just pout out "He was just using me for sex".
Well maybe so but he could have sex with any woman, there's a reason he chose her.
He likes her and it could have developed into something but because she, this, this and this, he decided to enjoy the sex and leave when it gets too much. She's so emotional and harps that he left her. Most women,when they like someone, can't accept the way things are and let it go...the way men can. It hurts the same for both but it's processed different.
This is why men can't understanding why women are so emotional and why women can't understand why men are so cold. This is where I strongly suggest communication and honesty, upfront and acceptance of how the other thinks and feels. Hard to do but with practice, it gets easier. I still have a bit of shyness on certain issues with men and that I need to work on. I have to make sure to not fault them nor blame them. I'm a huge nagger. Igor's nugget of wisdom I spotted this morning is perfect for my issue.
I suggest that the reason to stay with someone, is that you want to be with them.
With THEM, as they are. Not with THEM, as you wish that they were.




I was raised in the countryside, where indeed, every spring kids got to see the animals playing leapfrog. Some areas, however, still say sex is dirty, but other farmers think that sex is natural. Their kids seem to grow up with a healthier attitude about sex, that way. some turn into the "Farmers' daughters" stereotype seen on posters--comfortable with their sexiness and short shorts.


1+
Knowledge is power.
The more you know, the better off you are...providing that you know how to process and apply what you know,
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 181
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 12:12:21 PM

Haha, thank you for your patience with me NG. I understand a bit better, yes I agree.

It's the whole position of "I'm the panel of judges, YOU mister, are the contestant. YOU have something to prove to me, not the other way around." That mentality is going to be a huge turnoff. Many gals who exude this are not fully aware of it. Some obviously are (and proud, unfortunately). But many who do it non-chalantly are conditioned that that IS how it is (so what's the big deal?) -- when that's Not how it is, except somewhat in some sub-cultures.

Ok, this is where Im getting confused. Yes I agree if its 'you have to earn it, your not worthy'. But are you sure it is that and not 'you have to earn it because I want to tease and I enjoy watching you get hot', not because your not worthy but because she really likes you and wants to make it good for you?

"Watch you get hot"? No, it's not a sexual tease, although I could see a totally different scenario where something like that is applied in some dominatrix-style stuff going on lol. It's not like that at all. It's caution due to being hurt and not wanting to be hurt. Positioning oneself to be the panel of judges and the other to be the contestant is a way to "gain back power". By default, it's a bit like that in the dating field, in general already. A good way for a Guy who's sick of playing Contestant on every date he goes on is to have a bit of attitude adjustment and turn the tables a bit, where she gets the impression that he's Also a panel of judges. This goes back to the concept of Mr Nice Guy not going very far and girls thinking he's nice and all, but just want to be friends, if anything. He's Trying to be the Contestant to "win her over", but gains more success when he turns that one-way street into a two-way street and the gal feels like she's not the panel of judges anymore, and she's just as much a Contestant as he is.

if Johnny isnt interested, then Johnny knows that before the sex -- so Johnny should not be having the sex because he knows hes not interested.

He very well may be wavering on the interest -- like many girls & boys do on a first date or two. Especially when the other person felt like the other seemed to have some interest. It wouldn't be Johnny's fault for having sex with a frisky Sally on a 1st date when he, at the time, wasn't ga-ga about her. Not unless Sally gave him a disclaimer that she wants to see him again, etc and he lied about it or something. Otherwise, there's no "fault" by anybody. If Sally didn't want a roll in the hay, she can't blame her hormones talking on Johnny because he didn't want to continue dating. Having sex Does NOT Imply "We're going to be dating".

Yes... we don't want to face the fact we have red flags so it's easier to just pout out "He was just using me for sex".

Or not even red flags, but maybe a better dating option he had. Or an incompatibility issue that held back his interest in any chase or effort down the line, etc, but just an interest while-hes-there. Especially when the real reasons are complex and pieces of many things, it's easier just to have a simple answer. We tend to do that, especially if it soothes our egos a bit.

Even knowing the real response: "No, Sally -- Johnny thought you were really cool. He did have some attraction, but not enough to see you again when he had better options. Like you, he has a lot of options. Unlike him being your #1 draft pick, you weren't his #1 draft pick. Hot Heidi and him were talking -- she's better looking than you and seems to be more compatible to boot. He's happily porking AND being romantic about her now, and he is SO glad he got her and not some other gal. He's all about her, cuddling with her, baby talk -- whole nine yards. You were just an item on the sampler platter of dating, just like Greg and Tommy were to you." Sally's not going to be happy. "Yeah, he just wants sex. There is virtually no woman he'd want to go steady with," is better for the ego.

Most women,when they like someone, can't accept the way things are and let it go...the way men can. It hurts the same for both but it's processed different.

Well, there's plenty of guys who can't let it go. Otherwise, stalkers would be out of business. ;) But yes, guys do deal with rejection much better, as they act as approachers and are more heavily used to it, while gals tend to just yay-or-nay guys who approach them. Having to do that tends to get guys more used to it. But when there's a girl he Really likes, yeah, it'll hit him hard. Guys socially aren't as accepted b!tching about it nearly as much and have to get over it, move on, etc... where gals can get away with being expressively hurt & gain more sympathy & support from it (and other things in general). Guys just tend to hide it more than they are actually 'tough'. It's the manly thing to do. :)
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 182
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 4:11:30 PM

When you say have something to prove, Im not sure what you mean.

That he was in position to convince you that he's good enough for you, and not the other way around. Where you position yourself as the panel of judges, and him being the contestant to win you over. That that's his angle, his job, etc.

If I was unsure a man wanted a relationship, I would probably test that to prove he did. Is that the same thing that you are talking about?

Yes, that's one way. And that's called playing games. :)

Some men you feel confident they do, but others your not 100% sure so you wait.

If it's a guy you don't really know all that well yet, he should be unsure whether he wants a relationship with You, and you should be unsure off the bat, too. But the first few dates shouldn't be job interviews. It's after the few to handful of dates that you get a feel for one another whether there's a mutual feeling between each other to go down Toward relationship alley.

Dont know what you mean by that. Its just dating to me, you know, flirting, will she wont she stuff.

Dominatrix-like in which I was referring to: Meaning like, sexually teasing the guy around 1st base or 2nd base, and acting like she's going the next base but in a teasing fashion to "torture" him, saying "Ahhh, not now... you have to be a good boy," etc. Once I had a bit of that... a gal I was starting to date some was "feeling around down there", then dipped her head down, gave my Mr Happy a little kiss, paused for a while, looked up, chuckled, and came back up and said she doesn't give oral so soon. Talk about a crazy lady. No sympathy for her after thinking "All guys want is sex!"

So no, I wasn't referring to that -- although it has the same underlying basis for it. Control when they lost (self) control with other guys previously, or felt powerless from too-aggressive guys... hence "making up for that" with other dudes. Said can can carry on and on about how that's how she feels, her past is like x/y/z -- doesn't matter. It'll turn most guys off. Guys using the same excuse, applying it to other things will too. His past experiences with bad matches doesn't excuse him applying it to others.

But are you sure its a power thing, because if we are talking power and control then these are the women that have probably been hurt badly

Underneath it all, yes. It doesn't mean the gal is fully aware of it. I'd guess that most of the time, she's not -- possibly even Very Unaware of it. Think of it like the above thing that doesn't have to do with sex -- it's pretty much the same underlying issue. Some gals want to be the panel of judges, and the guy is the contestant to "win her over". Setting that Motif is going to turn a lot of guys off after a short period of time (namely those with a backbone and her not being out of his league).
 xlr8ingme
Joined: 3/16/2015
Msg: 183
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 5:19:17 PM
In this wonderful disposable era of technological advances, relationships have suffered because of them. Control has always been the issue, and will remain it. How much are we willing to give/take to have a relationship?

In the meantime I will stick to my core of values whether or not anyone else chooses to. I don't bend them either. If that means not dating because of some "game", expectation, or judgment, that's life. At this juncture I am happy being alone; there are many other females in my "league" a man may choose from. What sets us apart? Simply being ourselves (without some societal mask), and knowing exactly what we want in life.

Great post 123-
 newoldgirl
Joined: 4/16/2015
Msg: 184
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 8:15:47 PM

I have no idea how they would get this information and I highly doubt it would be accurate. You would only know via survey and surveys are not reliable.


As a matter of fact, the data came from not one survey, but a collection of many surveys in clinical settings and the data was collected anonymously.

Regardless, I am baffled as to why you are so stubborn about this. Girls do NOT masturbate as much as boys do. Maybe you did when you were a kid. I didn't. I had no sex ed in school, and neither of my parents told much beyond where babies come from, and I just didn't self discover it. Maybe I am a lot older than you are, but the surveys are current. But by all means, go ahead and believe what you want.


I feel quite uncomfortable that this would be a school issue. I think its too intrusive, I personally would not like my sons to learn about it at school, Id be even more worried if it was a girl and I think its quite a dangerous area to cover in a school environment.


Well, Vicki, I have done you the courtesy of actually reading your posts carefully. Had you read mine, you would have noticed that I said, IF I were in charge of sex ed, one of my suggestions would be that girls learn that masturbation was an option. Perhaps if more girls knew they could self-pleasure they would hold off on having sex. Kind of the opposite of dangerous. However, I don't know that it is covered in the new provincial curriculum, but I think it should be.


Also, do all boys think its funny and are comfortable with it? are some wishing they could just do what they do without having to 'joke' about it? Is there a lot of peer pressure that goes on here?


Who knows? Male bonding over locker room humour isn't my specialty, but I KNOW if you say the word "balls" around prepubescent boys, they snicker.


Maybe it would be better if we started saying, wouldnt it be nice if the boys were able to be as discrete about sex as girls?


Ah, but don't forget girls have to be more discreet otherwise people like you might slut-shame them.


They are, after all, still children whilst at school and I think that is schools over stepping the boundary of what is education and what is a parents responsibility.


I am sure teachers would love it if more parents actually did their jobs. Far too many kids show up at school hungry, no homework done, no agenda signed, no gym shoes, pale , flabby, and sleepy from staying up half the night playing video games, over or under medicated for their various needs. No doubt some parents who can't be bothered to help with homework would leave sex ed up to the internet or racy movies. And NO, Vicki that is not an accusation against you personally.


What I would like to see is the bodily parts taught in Biology, in a scientific way maybe include an explaination of the functions and feelings but keep it EDUCATIONAL not SEXUAL.


Sex is part of biology. In schools it is often taught be the district health nurse or by teachers. Teachers, who are well educated and trained professionals, can generally be counted on to be able to handle a variety of topics in a respectful and tasteful manner.
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 185
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 8:22:57 PM


Sex is part of biology.


Exactly.

Now, if someone has a problem with sex, then biology will be a tough subject indeed.

Again, a meaningful thread about relationships, where sex is a given, has devolved into sex in a bad relationship.
 newoldgirl
Joined: 4/16/2015
Msg: 186
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/12/2015 8:47:54 PM

Even knowing the real response: "No, Sally -- Johnny thought you were really cool. He did have some attraction, but not enough to see you again when he had better options. Like you, he has a lot of options. Unlike him being your #1 draft pick, you weren't his #1 draft pick. Hot Heidi and him were talking -- she's better looking than you and seems to be more compatible to boot. He's happily porking AND being romantic about her now, and he is SO glad he got her and not some other gal. He's all about her, cuddling with her, baby talk -- whole nine yards. You were just an item on the sampler platter of dating, just like Greg and Tommy were to you." Sally's not going to be happy. "Yeah, he just wants sex. There is virtually no woman he'd want to go steady with," is better for the ego.


I totally agree with this explanation.

I just don't get why some women are more disturbed by getting dumped after they have had sex with a guy. The logic seems to be "I only have sex if I have very strong attachment to that person." So, by that logic the woman would be hurt and upset if the guy broke up with her after she had formed an attachment to him whether they had sex or not. So...does she then say "Well, I am sad that I got dumped, but AT LEAST WE DIDN'T HAVE SEX!" Like she dodged some horrible bullet. Or is it a pride thing? Like if they had sex he had one up on her? Wouldn't it make more sense to say, "Well, I got dumped, but at least we had some awesome sex?" Or is that just to crazy an idea?


If I was unsure a man wanted a relationship, I would probably test that to prove he did. Is that the same thing that you are talking about?

........................................................................

Yes, that's one way. And that's called playing games. :)


Yep. Playing games and manipulation. Like sex is a bargaining chip and maybe the only one you've got.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 187
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 3:29:45 AM

I just don't get why some women are more disturbed by getting dumped after they have had sex with a guy.

Well, I think one insight is this: If a person sees post-1st or 2nd date where the person loses interest (sex or not) as being "dumped" -- then there lies the fundamental problem. I don't see that as being "dumped". That's a strong word. That word pretty much means breaking off a clear connection two people have, which that would lack. If they get the same Pain, then they're too emotionally invested -- which would explain jumping the gun of disdain toward the man or woman who lost interest. In this case, all too readily, "he just wanted sex" (whether it occurred or didn't).

The logic seems to be "I only have sex if I have very strong attachment to that person." So, by that logic the woman would be hurt and upset if the guy broke up with her after she had formed an attachment to him whether they had sex or not.

Psssst... Here's the hidden secret: Not all women who say that, only have sex that way. That's their ideal goal. Like an ideal calories-per-day goal a person may have, they may not hit that -- but still proclaim they do. Classic line post-sex after a 1st or 2nd date by a gal (and sometimes by a guy), "I want you to know, this is Not something I do...". When a guy gets older and has his single years added up over time, and hears that for the umpteenth time, he puts 2 and 2 together. I assume gals hear that line to a lesser extent.

So...does she then say "Well, I am sad that I got dumped, but AT LEAST WE DIDN'T HAVE SEX!" Like she dodged some horrible bullet. Or is it a pride thing? Like if they had sex he had one up on her? Wouldn't it make more sense to say, "Well, I got dumped, but at least we had some awesome sex?" Or is that just to crazy an idea?

It goes against the (gasp!) proper notion of a real lady! ;) I think a lot of women are conditioned that sex before at least going steady, in which is on its way to being bf/gf, is "bad". Not "bad" to have that happened when looking back on youthful years, but "bad" as something to ever repeat, etc. And I wouldn't blame guys for that! If anything, guys wish girls were more "open". It's society/upbringing. You combine that with not getting even a chance at going steady -- OUCH. Now I really look like the red-headed step-child! Plus, it's combined with No Interest! Double-whammy.

A guy on the other hand will have more of that last quote/thought you put up there, instead. I think maybe late in this century the later generations will look back at the end of the 20th century and chuckle -- as it being such a tilted playing field with such tilted emotional weirdness conditioned by 'tradition'... where later on this century, it will be much more evened out. Of course, I've heard in France it's more evened out that way, I dunno.

Haha, well if thats what you want to call it thats fine. But you know I would say a man thats trying to get sex without the relationship is the game player not the woman whos making sure he means what he says.

Pointing out the obvious. It will make some guys lose interest, and for good reason. Also: A guy that has sex or would like to have sex without a relationship is NOT defined as a game player. Liking to have sex without a relationship does not require manipulation, "testing", or playing another other sort of games with someone. One COULD of course... heck, one could play games to try and Bait them into going out with them again, and possibly go steady, too with sex not being a factor or just a bargaining chip. A woman wanting to make sure he means what he says doesn't mean she's playing a game -- no. But playing games to "find out" is playing games, and should be equally scorned.


It's after the few to handful of dates that you get a feel for one another whether there's a mutual feeling between each other to go down Toward relationship alley.
You know, that sounds such a good plan. I wonder why Ive never done it that way?

Is that sarcasm? I don't think what I said was odd... in fact I think it's pretty common sense, but that in which one can lose sight of when wrapped up in the dating scene, having a crush, etc.

Haha, well I wouldnt go so far as torture, nor do I want a 'good boy' (as in someone who does everything he is told, I like a man with a bit of fight in him lol)

It doesn't have to go that far either -- it's more an Attitude conveyed, which can be done in various specific ways. Which guys don't like.... which will many times result in him losing interest and walking, or taking the gal up on the offer and eventually grabbing the carrot off the stick, throwing the used condom in her wastebasket and immediately walking out the door lol (okay, not to that extreme, but you get my point).

Yes I would agree, thats not teasing thats damn stupid.

Well to her it was. To her, that was testing. She wanted to be sure that he (me) wanted a Relationship. A bad test. But sure, I can see her logic. If a guy Doesn't mind that, and is just happy to have said attention in those games -- yah, he must Really be into her and is most likely going to want a Relationship! But the flaw in that logic of testing in that fashion is that he may Act like he doesn't mind, until he gets that carrot she's having a power-trip of dangling. Or he may at first, but then loses interest fast, in what have been a great match if she wasn't hung up on sex & being-hurt issues.

Arent these the girls with high self esteem though? Arent these the ones who come from good homes who's parents dote on them?

No. You'll find many gals with a low-self-esteem pushing the "I deserve" button, expecting to be granted a lot due to past bad experiences, or moochers as ex-bfs, etc. If a woman has an even-level ground with a guy -- where BOTH people are both a judge & a contestant equally -- that does NOT imply she lacks a good self-esteem at all. In fact, it would imply, if anything, she has a good one. A LOW self esteem would be her walking in assuming she's a contestant and he's a panel of judges when he's not even out of her league. Anyway, you can have people of low, high, or medium esteem levels in either case. Some people can be conditioned/grown-up on the (false) "fact" that a guy's the contestant, and the lady is the panel of judges. An outdated concept that doesn't properly fit advanced civilization.

I have also experienced abuse so I will probably be more so than the most. It doesnt mean anything other than I need to test a bit more than others on some things. If that scares a man off then I have to live with that I just cant risk the other side of it.

Yeah, it's a reason that you may be hurting some good opportunities (and bad ones ya wouldn't care about anyway) out there, if/when your "testing" is trickeration.

My old roommate fell for a "trick", which was manipulation by the gal. I didn't have sympathy since he stole my friend's phone # he got from a girl and landed a date. So after the date they go back to her apartment, chit chat, have a nightcap... and she says, smiling seductively at him after changing into her jammies, with her fingers rolling down his arms... "So...would you like to have sex tonight, or do you want to like, (pause) wait and stuff?" He said after thinking and kind of feeling awkward with a direct question like that, "Well, I like to go with the flow, I don't like holding things back, so yeah I would like to if you wouldn't mind..."

He said she abruptly got up with a change of face and said, "Okay, I want you to leave. I don't want a guy who wants to have sex on the first date." He confusing left. Again, felt no sympathy for him since he stole my friend's # of hers, but at the same time, felt no sympathy for her, because that's playing games and is stupid (luring someone in, then ah-ha!; you really didn't bust them, you just wanted to).
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 188
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 9:31:13 AM
When women say "I'm not having sex with you unless we are in a relationship/in love/etc". ......... (SOME) men are going to say what she wants hear to get the sex. And for some, with the open mind that maybe, just maybe , she is relationship material to him.

Then the sex happens.
He discovers.... either they aren't sexually compatible or other red flags that sent him flying the opposite way.

Now... because she gave up the sex, she get all hurt.
Due to the hurt, it never occurs to her there could be underlying reasons she is "dumped" SO she goes........................"He used me for sex"!

The hurt rolls over to the next guy she meets so her guard is up.
She "tests" him to avoid anymore hurt.
The "tests" comes off as game playing.
The men will either spot the game and take advantage of it or ditch her for someone who doesn't play games.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 189
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 9:39:12 AM
IF a woman holding sex hostage, can be accused of playing a game...then who's fault is it she ends up in a game instead of a relationship?
IF a woman trades sex for love...who's fault is it if she ends up in a manipulation?
IF a woman "gives it up" thinking it will get her something and it doesn't...who's fault is it she's in an unhealthy relationship?

i'd say she's sending out a certain type of mating call. A certain type of dude will answer that call. both are responsible for what happens next.
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 190
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 10:00:28 AM
Wow,.... I'm finding myself agreeing with a lot of what you've been saying lately GTO.
Are we drinking the same kind of coffee? lol


;)
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 191
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 10:18:18 AM
oddly enough, I wasn't ever a coffee drinker. Just sun tea in the summer with fruit juice for flavor.

as for agreeing with things I've said, maybe its those darn...sandwiches. Start changing post titles, and then we'll know for sure.

have faith, i'll find something stupid enough to say, and equilibrium shall return. ;)

I will go on record, tho, its always hard to believe we human animals are supposed to be social animals. we can take something that should be simple, and apply human nature on it to screw it up. and that's not even just for relationships, ever go to your workplace and wonder, "why can't I just come here and get work done, why does there have to be so much office politics BS in the way of just accomplishing my task?"
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 192
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 11:24:03 AM
Just as you're not into coffees, I'm not into sandwiches.
Ethic gourmet dishes? Now you're talking my language :D

Gosh, I would NEVER say stupid GTO! You have your views that add to the flavor of the forums. Chin up boy and own it.

...so many food refs, I must be hungry. OH, it's lunchtime! *runs to a fridge


and.....Re@Office politics. Take a look around. So many different people with different personalities. It's impossible to tell them all to check their egos at the door and expect them to listen.
Like we tell the kids in preschool, use your words and learn to play/get along.
C'est la vie
 newoldgirl
Joined: 4/16/2015
Msg: 193
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 11:39:30 AM

Classic line post-sex after a 1st or 2nd date by a gal (and sometimes by a guy), "I want you to know, this is Not something I do...". When a guy gets older and has his single years added up over time, and hears that for the umpteenth time, he puts 2 and 2 together. I assume gals hear that line to a lesser extent.


LOL...never heard it, never used it.


why is it worse if Ive had sex? because it feels like Ive been taken advantage of, it feels like you broke the unwritten rule. I would still be hurt if he broke up before the sex but I wouldnt feel a fool or humiliated/used/cheap. There, a nice bit of analysis for you all to enjoy.


Like you got the losing end of a deal you thought you were making?

Like it was a game, and you lost, because you gave up your trump card?

Cheap? If you were selling it, maybe.


I think men dont stick to the unwritten rule,


Why would they stick to a rule they didn't agree to in the first place?


they think its fun,


It is fun.


they take what they want then they leave and it hurts!


Well, if a person "takes" sex, he or she also "gives" it. It's a perfectly fair exchange.

Everyone has been dumped, or passed over. How much it hurts depends on what expectations you had in the first place.
 clooneystutor
Joined: 3/8/2015
Msg: 194
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 11:54:44 AM


why is it worse if Ive had sex? because it feels like Ive been taken advantage of, it feels like you broke the unwritten rule. I would still be hurt if he broke up before the sex but I wouldnt feel a fool or humiliated/used/cheap. There, a nice bit of analysis for you all to enjoy.


Ahhh...so men have an easier time being dismissed after sex and not getting the relationship they coveted?



They take what they want then they leave and it hurts!


A therapist might be able to help with that sloppy gender paint brush your using.

What a generalized piece of poop.
 xlr8ingme
Joined: 3/16/2015
Msg: 195
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 12:15:31 PM
Is life not about taking risks? Some are calculated disasters, while others become spontaneous miracles. Relationships of any kind are a gamble. The question should be how much are we willing to invest? If its not all it should be nothing.
 1961harvest
Joined: 5/7/2015
Msg: 196
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 1:16:45 PM

Is life not about taking risks? Some are calculated disasters, while others become spontaneous miracles. Relationships of any kind are a gamble. The question should be how much are we willing to invest? If its not all it should be nothing.


I think this is the crux of the entire thread - independence vs interdependence. Good post.

The topic is not sex, when to have it, men who demand it, women who hold out or anything to do with sex.
 norwegianguy123
Joined: 10/27/2014
Msg: 197
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 3:04:12 PM

Ok, for me, I always thought the men knew if a girl had sex she had feelings.

Well, neither men or women are robots. Women are more apt Not to be in robotic-like-mode about it of course, compared to guys. It's a case by case basis. No, there is no unwritten rule that if the girl has sex that means she expects/wants a chance at a Relationship. You'd see no single girls on Adult Friendfinder, and in general to summarize -- girls wouldn't be interested in casual sex at all, if what you said was true. It'd be like saying "All guys give out cheeseball one-liners when trying to pick up a girl at the bar." Sure, there may be no shortage of that! But no, that is an inaccurate definition of guys altogether. There's far more than what stereotypical culture espouses. It's one of the first fallacies a guy realizes when he's had a good amount of varying experience, IMO.

So, for me to have sex it means I really like you so if you dump me Im going to get hurt.

Using the word "dump" does indicate, yes, you'll get hurt. But there's been girls with me and several of my friends over time when single, where there's sex had and she wilters away because it was too-early (or maybe she was seeing someone, had an on-again-off-again BF?). Sorry. That's not a rarity. On Spring Break, on college campuses a lot, etc -- there's more than enough doesn't-mean-I-want-a-relationship sex had by females. No, it's not an unwritten rule. If it's a rule for you -- write it down for the guy beforehand. No testing required, really.

Im not sure we are conditioned.

Sure you are. Men are too. Men just want sex, women are just about feelings. Etc etc the sayings go. IRL, over time being single from young adulthood into adulthood with enough mileage clocked, one will realize that's not so much the case. Women aren't genetically born to paint their nails, guys are not genetically born with some "unwritten rule" about women. It's society conditioning, like many many other things out there.

What men are these? am I missing out on something?

Many men losing interest when games are played. Or, as I said before, deep interest, and they can go for the 'chase' which said games can end up making him focus on, then once a said prize is acquired, leave, as that's all the interest was focused on.

Ive never done that, Ive always had sex quite early on.

Whoah -- wait. Quite early on? Clarify for me. I thought you said "I would say a man thats trying to get sex without the relationship is the game player". Having sex "quite early" indicates sex without a relationship (which may or may not happen later). Wouldn't you be in the same boat as them? Why this biased one-way in inequality? Because politically-correct society leans that way? LOL. It's OK for you, but not for the other? What if you have sex early like you say, and in one instance, then realize "Ehh, you know... Bob's not a good match. He barked at his mom on the phone, he's smoking... I thought his job was better, sex wasn't great, he's obsessed about cartoons... He's not my style...," that's OK to not continue and develop a relationship, but if it's the other way around he violated some unwritten rule and Used you? Not to mention it would HURT MORE when a guy has sex early with a gal, isn't that into her, but feels obligated by society-to-be-good to continue to see her, only to lead her on more and have her emotions Actually set in, THEN actually dumping her.

Then once youve done it once I never really understood the waiting around?

Waiting around? For what? Being an item/couple? NOT jumping into being an item isn't "waiting around". Once you've had a nice 1st date -- do you consider that "waiting around", not being an item? That's not waiting around! It's something to Develop. I mean, if you Knew them before, like a co-worker, social-group friend, etc -- sure, it can take little time if any to become an item. But emphasis on Can. If you want to be an insta-item because you had sexual relations, whether it be getting past 2nd base or going all the way, you're having the mindset of a high-schooler. That's your Emotions talking -- which is fine, but as an adult we put that under control. I've had sex early with gals of course, and when I Really liked them -- I'd be a FOOL to push/expect being an item with said girls Merely because we fooled around. Sometimes it will Push a gal away if it's too early (like it can with guys). Sometimes it doesn't have much an effect either way, and if it works out, it works out during that pre-dating phase. Just because you have sex with someone during the pre-dating phase does NOT indicate you're a better match and should become an item right then. That's not a WAITING period -- it's a DEVELOPMENT period, whether you have sex or not. Wanting to jump into being an item is understandably the emotions talking. That's fine, but keep the emotions in their proper place. It'll feel like a "waiting period" even before a 1st date with a gal I have an immense crush on! :) Doesn't mean that Should wisely instantly occur or I should expect it to! If you get too wrapped up about it -- don't have sex too early! It's JUST as much your fault or success as a guy's!

IME, if you are aimiable, you give the man what he wants ect he gets bored pretty quick.

That's the mentality of a game-player. Yes, you. :) Going out of your way not giving them what they want. No, someone, a guy or girl, shouldn't pander & cater to the other. I agree to that extent. But they shouldn't be playing games to purposely short the other person out of something to "tantalize" them. If they pick up on that, that will make them lose interest if that sets the tone, unless they have some crush on you or real low-self-esteem (even then, it does have its limits).

What you should do is drop the testing, and hold "back" on the sex if you want sex to be a required ingredient for a Relationship. Don't have sex when you're in the initial dates. You're bringing that on yourself if you are, success or fail. So just tell the guy that you don't have sex until you Are an item that's starting to evolve into a BF/GF Realtionship. Now, if you don't know the guy really before this 1st date (or before the 1st date when chatting online), remember that it's going to take more than just a few dates to be an item. You'll have to get to know each other decently well... because what you're trying to avoid, in the end, is him in the process of getting to know you, realizing that you two aren't a great match. That's not a "Waiting Period", that's development. Now, everything is a Risk. But at least get past the first handful of dates and then some before expecting anything formulating with any weight -- and in the mean time, don't "put out" either because during that "pre season" of being an item, which will last about a month or so, you or they can not want to go out on any more dates whether sex is had or not. No sense of putting yourself in position of being hurt, if that's how You roll.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 198
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/13/2015 5:01:31 PM
I love sandwiches, but then I guess its b/c I love condiments. horseradish mustard and roast beef, crisp shredded lettuce and beefsteak tomato, swiss, on a pretzel bun or maybe toasted garlic bread or a bagel. I'm weird, most of my cooking is just throwing together ingredients I'm in a mood to eat.

Ethic foods would be a good idea, then i'd be what I eat. Ethnic foods would be good, too. ethic ethnic foods are also good. hmm, must be time for second dinner. this salad diet sucks, I'm not sure how anyone could feel fed on salads. Kate Moss once said nothing tastes as good as thin feels. what a maroon.

as for office politics, I worked w/ too many people who I think considered the workplace a location to work on their childhood issues. I used to say, there's a point where the Dilbert comic strip is no longer funny, but just a confirmation you aren't alone.

sometimes, in some places, sex is like having a beer. sometimes its a way to have a good feeling, or to share a good time with a particular person. hopefully, a relationship is more about the level of sex and the time when the sex occurs.

oh wait, I can think of something stupid to say--I hate the TV show South Park. no, really. in my opinion, its a low brow (kids swearing and scatology? wow) show complaining about low brow things while contributing mightily to the downfallof culture it lampoons on every show. now there's an inflammatory statement that has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.
 GattoMonstrosis
Joined: 4/4/2013
Msg: 199
view profile
History
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/14/2015 2:49:41 AM

Kind of, not so much my trump card but having sex, for me, is an extension of how I feel. So if Im having sex what Im saying is Im really into you, I think your amazing, I really want to see where this goes. The greatest honour I can give you is my body and Ive chosen you.


That's generally how i feel when i have sex, except for the greatest honour bit, i think the problems came in last time because while i was thinking that she was thinking "We have just had sex, we are now a concrete item and nothing more needs to be said" not so much wanting to see where it went but assuming it was already there.


Yes I agree with you but I think it depends on the type of games, the reason for the game, and the level at which you play.


I'm not so sure, i understand there are reasons for playing games but when i realise someone is playing games with me all i can think about it is that they thought i was a nothing they could play with, it can't help but feel that that was all they though i was worth.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 200
Independence VS Interdependance
Posted: 5/14/2015 4:47:17 AM
" So just tell the guy that you don't have sex until you Are an item that's starting to evolve into a BF/GF Relationship."

>>>for some people, moving quickly into sex is moving quickly into commitment, and that is a good thing in their eyes. they see movies and TV shows where two characters hop into bed as a sign that they are a love story. boy meets girl, boy gets girl into bed. that's how the audience knows they are meant to be, among the car chases and explosions and other drama.

for other people, courting would be a good idea. get to know each other, be friends first, have a chance to connect on a personal level. the more these people offer on a personal level, the longer this might take. the less they offer, the less time this may take. less time might lead to sex sooner.
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