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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!      Home login  
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!Page 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Hhmm, dunno. Would be good used in combination with a rotating skyhook. Some serious engineering technicalities, and some serious power requirements. As with other possibilities, I suppose the biggest thing influencing whether or not this would work is just committing to it and being serious - making it work requires committing serious brainpower ahead of time and serious construction afterwards (not cutting corners or choking up once started)...being ready to adjust for anomalies that might not be fully predictable, and building in plenty of wiggle-room & performance-margin & safety-margin. Could get expensive. Would have to show theoretically that it really would work, and would be worth the effort - The basics physics are always only part of the story. The real-world engineering and operation often being the real trick. And the latter can only be addressed fully when actually doing this thing. Would just need to have ample idea what they would end up being to determine whether or not to do it.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 27
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/27/2016 4:16:29 PM
To Msg 25:

I would be really worried about sabotage. Magleve support bearings? A thousand miles of ground based cable? Sounds like an easy target for any small group of saboteurs. With a space elevator, you have a really localized place to maintain, plus carbon nanotubes have brought us a long way towards realizing such a concept.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 28
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/27/2016 4:44:43 PM

Well yes, there are a few barriers. But if you think about it, that is actually what the biological machines called life do.

biological machines


Do you think this? That life, people, etc., are 'machines'. Otherwise, describe to me what you mean by 'biological machines'.
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/27/2016 5:58:36 PM
Oh c'mon man.

Don't be such a machine.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 30
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/27/2016 6:05:13 PM

Oh c'mon man.

Don't be such a machine.


Do you expect me to get all of your movie references? Ya bloody hell old chap
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 31
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 3:45:32 AM
Drink:

Would be good used in combination with a rotating skyhook.

Yes, I like that idea. You'd scale the loop right down so the launched craft only peaks at 100km altitude doing mach 10, and let the skyhook do the heavy lifting. The loop would be very similar to Knapman's Space Cable, only with a continuous rotor instead of bolts.
http://www.spacecable.org.uk/Stability%20IAC.pdf

Could get expensive.

I get what you're saying about the real-world stuff, but the same issues apply to alternatives as well so I take it as a given. Launch cost is estimated to be similar to the space elevator... all very cheap compared to rockets.

Cress:

I would be really worried about sabotage. Magleve support bearings? A thousand miles of ground based cable? Sounds like an easy target for any small group of saboteurs. With a space elevator, you have a really localized place to maintain, plus carbon nanotubes have brought us a long way towards realizing such a concept.

Fair point, it would be more accessible for sabotage. But you really only have two critical attachment 'points' (the ends) since attacking a stabilization cable won't do much. Yes, you could bomb or cut the cable anywhere from one of the launch vehicles, but think how catastrophic that would be for the space elevator now heading out of the solar system compared to this thing that just glides down on parachutes ready to be repaired.

The 4000km length of iron itself isn't a big deal, but yes the turning points and expansion joints are significant engineering problems. I don't see it as any more challenging than the problems 150,000km of (diamond nanothreads or whatever ends up being suitable for the elevator) will face. It is more of a force and friction problem instead of a super-materials problem, which is an interesting situation to be in. I know - let's make one of each and race them!
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 32
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 4:33:08 AM
kidreason

Do you think this? That life, people, etc., are 'machines'. Otherwise, describe to me what you mean by 'biological machines'.

Taken in context I thought it was fairly clear. I agree that the in-situ replication and evolution of machines that Drink described as the efficient way to develop extremely far away and relatively inhospitable places is indeed what is needed, and the basic technology and tools (or 'machines' to draw the analogy with Drink's machines) to get cracking on it already exist in nature. Previously in the thread we discussed terraforming, which was background that may have made it easier to interpret that comment.

That said, I'm a materialist so I don't mind if you want to take it deeper than I meant as long as you don't try to limit the definition of 'machine' as something designed by some intelligence or anything silly like that. Yes, we are bags of atoms and consciousness is an emergent property of our neurochemical networks (including possible quantum effects), and so on. If you're interested, a good place to start would be to look at viruses to try to explain the difference between 'life' and 'biological machine'. If you struggle to draw a distinction, you could move on to archaea, bacteria and protozoa. Eventually you'll either find a point where life stops being a 'biological machine' or conclude that it never does.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 33
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 6:14:40 AM

If you're interested, a good place to start would be to look at viruses to try to explain the difference between 'life' and 'biological machine'.


Ah, biology isn't really my thing. What are those little guys called that decode RNA for protein production and construct/deconstruct DNA. Man if ever there was a thing that looked like it belonged on the floor of a manufacturing plant, those little guys are it.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 34
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 6:30:43 AM

What are those little guys called that decode RNA for protein production

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_RNA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribosome

and construct/deconstruct DNA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_polymerase
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicase
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 35
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 7:08:28 AM
Yah, that's them. But 2D representations don't do them justice. Computer models of them actually at work are ridiculously machine like.
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 7:22:13 AM
Yes, the expense of the Lofstrom loop wouldn't really be a new thing nor a bigger thing. It solves a lot of problems as well.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 37
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 8:35:58 AM

Taken in context I thought it was fairly clear. I agree that the in-situ replication and evolution of machines that Drink described as the efficient way to develop extremely far away and relatively inhospitable places is indeed what is needed, and the basic technology and tools (or 'machines' to draw the analogy with Drink's machines) to get cracking on it already exist in nature. Previously in the thread we discussed terraforming, which was background that may have made it easier to interpret that comment.

That said, I'm a materialist so I don't mind if you want to take it deeper than I meant as long as you don't try to limit the definition of 'machine' as something designed by some intelligence or anything silly like that. Yes, we are bags of atoms and consciousness is an emergent property of our neurochemical networks (including possible quantum effects), and so on. If you're interested, a good place to start would be to look at viruses to try to explain the difference between 'life' and 'biological machine'. If you struggle to draw a distinction, you could move on to archaea, bacteria and protozoa. Eventually you'll either find a point where life stops being a 'biological machine' or conclude that it never does.


here is what I see when I hear 'biological machine':
http://tinyurl.com/jn9uc5r

It looks like it desperately wants 'free will'.

To me: Everything exhibits consciousness, not just neural networks, but the atoms themselves, a rock exhibits a level of consciousness, just at a fundamentally lower level than us. The stars and the trees are like my relatives.
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 9:40:57 AM
G -

(http://www.spacecable.org.uk/Stability%20IAC.pdf)

Didn't read through it all, just gonna ask you instead...Do they have a good idea of the possibilities of waves/oscillations propagating and growing, and how to deal with them?

What do you think about the idea of having two complete and separate systems, their respective sheaths connected together for most of the length as a single unit...and you have a repertoire of preprogrammed automatic tweaks in the speed of just one of them or the other to counteract the various issues?

Ppfff...geez, I've already doubled or tripled the required budget of this thing.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 39
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/28/2016 1:06:14 PM

That said, I'm a materialist so I don't mind if you want to take it deeper than I meant as long as you don't try to limit the definition of 'machine' as something designed by some intelligence or anything silly like that.


Do you think its silly If I consider matter, atoms, etc, the galaxy, the universe, etc to exhibit some level of consciousness?
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 40
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/29/2016 4:04:19 AM
D -

The support and tethers in Fig 4. impart lateral stability. The cable is vertically stable but vertical oscillations still need accounting for.

Your idea of damping the vibration is fine, but you don't need to duplicate the whole cable... you can just attach units at discrete intervals to do the job. The 660 tonne tuned mass damper at the top of Taipei 101 immediately comes to mind as an example, but there are plenty of other (smaller) dampers in use around the place. Powerlines use stockbridge dampers. Some cars use centrifugal pendulum absorbers.

Most of them use 'passive' damping to keep cost low, but you're talking about an 'active' damping system where it reacts to feedback instead of relying on inertia. I know conceptually similar technology is mature in adaptive optics in large telescopes where the mirrors are deformed by voice-coil actuators in real time to undo atmospheric distortions on the light wavefront. Not sure if it has spread to structural damping applications yet, but I'm sure it would if the price was right. I know active isolation is being used in vibration isolation for micrometer or nanometer manufacturing applications like silicon chip manufacture. If the money is there because it is necessary, the technology will be all over it.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 41
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/29/2016 5:24:32 AM
K -


here is what I see when I hear 'biological machine':
http://tinyurl.com/jn9uc5r

Everyone should dig around inside dead people. It is very educational.

The stars and the trees are like my relatives.

Yes, all our atoms were made in stars and we have plenty in common with our fellow eukaryotes including a common heritage.

Do you think it's silly If I consider matter, atoms, etc, the galaxy, the universe, etc to exhibit some level of consciousness?

Depends how you're defining terms in the phrase 'exhibit some level of consciousness'... especially 'consciousness'. If you're using conventional definitions and are proposing conventional rocks to be conventionally conscious, you can probably expect to be thought conventionally silly.
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/29/2016 10:34:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ALUQEtmYZ8
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 43
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/29/2016 9:15:41 PM

Depends how you're defining terms in the phrase 'exhibit some level of consciousness'... especially 'consciousness'. If you're using conventional definitions and are proposing conventional rocks to be conventionally conscious, you can probably expect to be thought conventionally silly


everything emits a level of vibrational energy(wave/particle duality),

everyone and everything emits a certain frequency, which could alter yours or anyone else's frequency

https://youtu.be/vqM3TE5TDw8?t=1196
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/30/2016 9:16:02 AM
My walls are conscious. They won't shut up. They keep emitting that darned vibrational energy. Messing with my frequency man.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 45
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/30/2016 10:22:25 AM
Yes, the universe is conscious.

Everything is conscious, because we are 'within the everything' that is consciousness, our minds.

Too bad we are too biased with our intellect, we think we are intelligent(post above), we always think of every moment as ordinary everyday experience, only sometimes do we feel the extraordinary feeling of being.

No one has ever seen an atom, or an electron, etc

A blind man would refer to space as: 'that which does not obstruct movement'.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 46
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/30/2016 6:52:47 PM

No one has ever seen an atom, or an electron, etc

Atoms have been imaged since transmission electron microscopy was invented in the 1970's. Covalent bonds between atoms have been harder to show, but have been done more recently using atomic force microscopy.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17699-microscopes-zoom-in-on-molecules-at-last/
http://phys.org/news/2013-05-first-ever-high-resolution-images-molecule-reforms.html

The nodal structure of wavefunctions have even been imaged using photoionization microscopy.

http://physics.aps.org/featured-article-pdf/10.1103/PhysRevLett.110.213001
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 47
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/30/2016 8:55:56 PM

Atoms have been imaged since transmission electron microscopy was invented in the 1970's. Covalent bonds between atoms have been harder to show, but have been done more recently using atomic force microscopy.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17699-microscopes-zoom-in-on-molecules-at-last/
http://phys.org/news/2013-05-first-ever-high-resolution-images-molecule-reforms.html

The nodal structure of wavefunctions have even been imaged using photoionization microscopy.

http://physics.aps.org/featured-article-pdf/10.1103/PhysRevLett.110.213001


I had a feeling you were going to do that, a quick google image search of 'real atom' will give the same results. Perhaps I should of been more clear on 'seen'.

Anyway, this is like saying you have seen the whole ocean when you only seen the beach.

question for gingerosity: have you ever considered getting yourself your own chem lab? I was thinking of getting one eventually, perhaps in my garage.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 48
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/30/2016 10:12:39 PM
maybe I could find software that could emulate a chem lab instead
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 49
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astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 4/30/2016 10:35:36 PM

have you ever considered getting yourself your own chem lab?

No. I did chemistry at uni for 6 years and quit my phd for several reasons including finding the day-to-day lab work repetitive and frustrating. Then I took a job for a few years making nuclear medicine. I'm glad to have changed career to an easy desk job now and enjoy reading in 5 minutes what it took some poor sucker a year of hard work to figure out.

It's not going to happen, but if I was going to get back into that stuff I would want access to expensive journals and equipment... and to be paid well. I don't see the point of me doing backyard chemistry where it's virtually impossible to know if I've made anything new to science and to characterize it properly for publication.

I was thinking of getting one eventually, perhaps in my garage.

Well if you're new to chemistry it would probably be fun and worthwhile for you. Just make sure you look after yourself. If you're going to do any work without a fume hood, make sure you have good ventillation and don't use anything too nasty.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 50
astronauts will get dumber on their way to Mars!
Posted: 5/1/2016 12:36:56 AM

No. I did chemistry at uni for 6 years and quit my phd for several reasons including finding the day-to-day lab work repetitive and frustrating.


I already find the labs to be boring


Well if you're new to chemistry it would probably be fun and worthwhile for you. Just make sure you look after yourself. If you're going to do any work without a fume hood, make sure you have good ventilation and don't use anything too nasty.


Safety is always #1

I've been preparing for physical chemistry 1 & 2. The average(at my school) for the class is a 50ish, and some chem majors switch to geochemistry to avoid it

(requires only calc 2 & applied math 1. I did calc 3, diff eq, linear alg, and will be doing 'prob stats 1' & 'applied math 2' before i take the class)... can't wait to blow that class out of the waters, i believe it was my destiny...

Are you anti-'anti-depressants', or anti-medication of anything specifically? I would assume you would be
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