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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The confederate flag debate.      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 26
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damnPage 2 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
I'm not up on the history of your flags but find the debate interesting. How would any of you respond to the stated myths and "facts" contained in this link? http://www.rulen.com/myths/
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 27
view profile
History
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/3/2015 12:21:04 PM
^^^
Interesting, not sure how true each point is or not , or what Lincoln was recorded saying or not. But the war, like most wars, was definitely mostly economic! Letting The South go would have probably gone against the widely held belief of Manifest Destiny as well.

Tidbit: Mayor Fernando Wood of NYC was one of many New York Democrats who were sympathetic to the Confederacy. He suggested to the City Council that New York City secede as the "Free City of Tri-Insula", to continue its profitable cotton trade with the Confederacy. He was confident that the city state would prosper on the import tariffs that then supplied 2/3 of the Federal revenues, and especially dissatisfaction with the state government at Albany ( still as of today).
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 28
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/3/2015 12:42:19 PM
I wonder what the detracters of Free Speech have to say about the Celtic Cross. Yes , you know , the International icon for WHITE PRIDE ,WORLD WIDE. Would you like to take that away from us as well?
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 29
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History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/3/2015 2:59:56 PM
“See, William T Thompson did not design the flag on the general lee from the dukes of Hazzard county. William Porcher Miles designed it.”

You’re getting into a lot of semantics about the flag, but it actually doesn’t matter, considering Miles thought slavery was a “divine institution” and that “men are created neither equal nor free” and was such a “fire eater” that he wanted the slave trade with Africa to resume, which was extremist even by 1860 Southern standards. He and Thompson were 100% in agreement about what their respective flags meant and what the purpose of the Confederacy was (and for God’s sake, man, Miles’ flag was *in* Thompson’s flag, so the most notorious part of Thompson’s flag was definitely on top of the General Lee). So if you want to ride that horse to the finish line, by all means, crack that whip.

“To those veterans and their descendants it means something.”

There is almost no one alive today that knew anyone that fought in the Civil War. There are very few people alive that knew anyone that knew anyone that fought in the Civil War. History is fascinating and very important to learn, less we repeat the foolish parts, but worshiping history is a very sad, regressive lifestyle. I can tell you right now I don’t give a flying fck what my ancestors were doing 150 years ago. This is America 2015. I’ve got a job to do in an industry that didn’t even exist in 1865. I have friends from states and countries that didn’t exist in 1865. I’ve got bills to pay, careers to tend to, people to help. You need to get your butt in this era with the rest of us and quit sitting around sucking on your thumb about the “suffering” of your great-great-great-great grandfather and start worrying about the REAL problems your children are dealing with in the modern world.

And by the way: being both a Confederate sympathizer and a “patriotic American” is schizophrenic. See a psychiatrist. Especially if you plan on celebrating tomorrow.

“MYTH - The War of 1861 - 1865 was fought over slavery.

FACT - Terribly untrue. The North fought the war over money. Plain and simple.”

It doesn’t matter why the North fought the war, because the South started it. If somebody attacks your fort, what’s going to be your response? And the South definitely started it over slavery – both economic slavery reasons and just pure racist slavery reasons.

It’s funny how most white Southerners are strict constructionists until secession comes up, because there’s absolutely no secession clause in the Constitution, therefore what the Confederacy did was unconstitutional and unquestionably an act of high treason. Every Confederate leader should have been hanged for causing the deaths of 600,000 people and billions of dollars in property damage. Instead they got retirement and a bunch of monuments. And a bunch of morons worshiping them 150 years later.

“MYTH - Only Southerners owned slaves.”

Who said that’s a myth? Two wrongs don’t make a right. In the end, Northerners did the right thing, while if the South had its way, I’d be a slave right now instead of arguing on a stupid website message board clogged full of idiots.

“MYTH - The Confederate Battle Flag represented the Southern Nation.”

Again, the Confederate Battle Flag is *in* the official Confederate National Flag!!! How the HELL are so many people this blind?

What is the point of trying to pretend that the Confederacy was not a racist organization? That’s like trying to pretend the Soviet Union was not Communist. Do you guys think it’s some sort of blight on your ancestors that they were racists? It only is if you yourself continue to worship those ancestors and their beliefs. I can’t even believe I’m saying this, but be more like Strom Thurmond’s son. And he’s only ONE generation removed from a (hypocritical) racist.
 Orione7
Joined: 12/22/2014
Msg: 30
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/4/2015 9:33:07 AM
Can I fly the Italian royal flag too then?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 31
view profile
History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/4/2015 7:06:11 PM
Message 31 ...
According to Republicans, flying a former enemy's flag is cheered in the Southern states.
And now it's gonna be the teadipper's "Don't Tread on Me" flag ...

Italy was an enemy at one time. Fly away!! Put it on the state houses across the South. They love the flag of one former foreign enemy. Why not Italy's, too?
Why not everywhere?

Let's fly the Nazi flag, too.
Sigh ... I couldn't find one.

But I could possibly display my copy of my personally signed "Mein Kampf" ... however I gave it to my ex-husband in the divorce settlement. (Not really, but I know some posters in here who think I'm anti-semitic would love that!)

I lived in a provincial town in Germany (Ostheim v.d. Rhön) that had a 1000-year old castle (Castle Lichtenburg) and church and I was best friends with the only Jews in town ... he was my OB/GYN. He lived through the holocaust only because his father was not Jewish and had a high position in the military. Somehow they were able to keep his Jewish mother's identity secret. His wife and her family lived through the holocaust because they were hidden in the countryside by some family friends. I don't know what I would've done without him ... without them.

I'm proud that my former in-laws were not members of the Nazi party ... almost got my father-in-law sent to a concentration camp when he refused help the Nazi's.

I have a flag pole ... and some of those cute little flags one flies for the change of the seasons etc. ... wonder if I can find a German flag ... it's my heritage ... 5th & 3rd generation. Might offset the confederate flags in this area?
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 32
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/5/2015 7:26:09 AM
Really , just another element of the larger scale attack on European Heritage. If "stormroot" was a gubmint employee , manchurian shooter or not , will never be known. One thing for sure , if obongo does not weaponize enough non whites , he'll get the JFK treatment from the zios. the intellectual war on White Christians has been once again , ramped up.

What a perfect opportunity to destroy White Culture. From banishing our history to exhuming graves. From destroying his statue in Memphis to exhuming his grave , the memory of the brilliant General and Klan founder , N.B. Forrest , has been totally revised. Well , what about 1st Amendment protection? Concerned Caucasians have been groping for Civil Rights ever since reconstruction.

Sadly , our misguided courts operate on the premise of precedence. So, let's revert to Black v. Virginia ; Grand Dragon , Black , was prohibited from holding a Cross Lighting on his property !!! Due to the fact that the Cross was visible and "offensive" to several negros ; Black was not entitled to his 1st Amendment Free Expression. Oddly , most hated negro (by his own) Clarence Thomas , was the perp. This miscarriage of justice , of course , creates legal precedence for gubmint intrusion prohibiting Freedom of Expression for Whites. Negros , actually should ADORE justice thomas. He is a Constitutional rapist.

Personally , I prefer the MIOAK flag for White Seperatism. But , hey , it's the thought that counts. We don't know how much of a gubmint employee "stormroot" was. A "manchurian" shooting is entirely possible. Whom could not be sympathetic to elderly Christians of any race? The photoshopped pics make for a very dispicable individual. As Mr. Emanual says "Never let a good crisis go to waste". Funny how quickly obongo chimed in with anti gun rhetoric. However the case , very sad. No doubt. What a tremendous opportunity to disarm and silence Whitey. A beautiful excuse for more revision.
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/6/2015 6:14:10 PM
We must admit how tricky things like this really are - When flying your American flag, do you forget about what happened with the natives of this continent?
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 34
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/6/2015 8:20:32 PM

When flying your American flag, do you forget about what happened with the natives of this continent?


Of course they do.

Anything else would be inconvenient.

The plan was to have the older generation die off, and the younger generation "assimilated" into white society.

And "problem" solved.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 35
view profile
History
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/7/2015 10:59:38 AM
Message 34 ...
When flying your American flag, do you forget about what happened with the natives of this continent?
I have Native American heritage ... I don't put up an American flag.

Ohio ... Effective Date: 09-24-1987 ... the fourth Saturday in September shall be designated as "Native American Indian Day."

Tennessee ... in 1994, the state number agenda General Assembly established the 31st day of October of each year is to be especially observed in Tennessee as "American Indian Day" (TCA 15-2-106).

South Dakota ... Native American Day Second Monday in October ... in 1989, the South Dakota legislature unanimously passed legislation proposed by Governor George S. Mickelson to proclaim 1990 as the "Year of Reconciliation" between Native Americans and whites, to change Columbus Day to Native American Day and to make Martin Luther King's birthday into a state holiday. Since 1990, the second Monday in October has been celebrated as Native American Day in South Dakota.

California ... in 1998, the California Assembly passed AB 1953, which made Native American Day an official state holiday, observed annually on the fourth Friday in September.

OT ...
I see there's been some push to put up a different "confederate" flag in it's place ... WTF? A "confederate" flag is still just that ... a "confederate" flag. Wouldn't it still represent the same thing as the current "confederate" flag that's flying?

Found the following online ...
"In the South Carolina Senate, three amendments tried to alter the thrust of the bill: a proposal to put a different Confederate flag on the pole, an option to fly the flag only on Confederate Memorial Day, and leaving the flag's fate up to a popular vote. All three amendments were rejected."
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 36
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/7/2015 4:37:22 PM

We must admit how tricky things like this really are - When flying your American flag, do you forget about what happened with the natives of this continent?


That' a good point. Back in the 90's in Australia there were debates about changing our flag as many deemed it racist because it did not represent Native Australians. However the Native Australians did not want that, they wanted their own flag. Which they now have, so Council offices and Govt. Departments now fly the Australian flag , the Native Australian flag and usually the State flag. Which is a good result.

Anyway what this thread reveals about the Confederate Flag is that many Americans suffer from confirmation bias and nothing will ever convince them that it represents anything other than racism and white supremacy. Well this guy makes some good points.



The War for Southern Independence (or as the U.S. Congress officially declared it to be -- The War Between the States; it was not a "civil war") was fought over slavery, with the North fighting to free Southern slaves and the South fighting to keep her slaves.

This is, of course, not true.

First of all, all thirteen original states which seceded from England in 1776 and which formed the United States of America, from Maine (a part of Massachusetts at that time) to Georgia, owned slaves. Was the First American Revolution fought over slavery. If not, then neither was the Second American Revolution fought over slavery when the Southern states withdrew from the Union and formed the Confederate States of America. Is the Fourth of July a racist holiday because all thirteen original colonies had slaves? If not, then neither are our Confederate holidays. Is the U.S. flag a racist flag because all thirteen original states had slaves? If not, then neither is the Confederate battle flag a racist flag -- or do these intolerant individuals and the news media advocate taking down the U.S. flag as well? If they do, then they will need to take down nearly every national flag in the world, starting with the flag of Nigeria in Africa. What blatant bigotry to call the Confederate flag racist!

During the War for Southern Independence, many in the North also had slaves, but refused to free their slaves until after the War. People in Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia, and even Washington, D.C., owned slaves; these states never seceded and were under the control of the United States throughout the course of the entire War. However, they were not required to free their slaves by the U.S. government. The U.S. Congress in 1862 even refused to pass a constitutional amendment abolishing slavery, when the only Senators and Representatives in Congress were from the North (all Southerners had left Congress to form their own nation). How could the North be fighting the War to free Southern slaves when they would not free their own, such as Ulysses S. Grant's personal slave or Abraham Lincoln's father-in-law's slaves? What hypocrisy! Even worse, Lincoln and the U.S. Congress offered to pass a constitutional amendment for the South, guaranteeing permanent slavery forever in the slave states, if only the Southern states would return to the Union. The South refused the offer.

Northern slaves were even exempt from Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. Furthermore, captured Southern slaves on the Mississippi River were forced to work on the plantations as slaves for the United States Army, growing cotton for Northern factories, rather than being set free. Also, during the War, just as many Union soldiers owned slaves as Confederate soldiers. Is the U.S. flag a symbol of slavery because the North owned slaves during the War? If not, then neither is the Confederate battle flag a symbol of slavery. How could the War have been fought over slavery when both sides had slaves?

The War for Southern Independence was fought over local self-government by the South versus centralist government by the North; the centralist government won and the local self government lost. The Confederate battle flag is the symbol of the right of the local people and the states to govern themselves and is flown in memory and honor of our Confederate ancestors and veterans who gave their lives for less government, less taxes, and Southern independence.

In his inaugural address of March 4, 1861, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln stated, "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Furthermore, Union General U.S. Grant said, "If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side."

A war over slavery? Not hardly!

The Confederate States of America even offered to free all Southern slaves in return for independence; Lincoln refused the offerThe term "free state" meant free from Blacks. Northerners did not want to live with Blacks, slave or free, and many Northern states and territories actually passed laws prohibiting free Blacks from entering into them. Lincoln himself stated the opinion of the Northern people during a meeting with a group of Black leaders during the War, saying, "There is an unwillingness on the part of our people [Northern Whites] to live with you free colored people. Whether this is right or wrong, I am not prepared to discuss, but it is a fact with which we must deal. Therefore, I think it best for us to separate." Acting upon this sentiment, Abraham Lincoln and the United States Congress purchased land, passed laws, and started shipping free Northern Blacks out of the country down to poverty-stricken Haiti. Lincoln put together several such schemes to remove free Blacks from the United States, to send some back to Africa and some to Central and South America. At the end of the War, a few weeks before Lincoln was assassinated, Union General Benjamin Butler asked him what he was going to do with all the recently free Southern Blacks. To this Lincoln replied, "I think we should deport them all."

Meanwhile, down South, Confederate States President Jefferson Davis and his wife Varina were adopting an eight-year-old free Black orphan boy named Jim Limber. After his mother died, little Jim was placed with a free Black family as foster parents. However, this family badly mistreated him to such a degree that the news reached the ears of the President and Mrs. Davis, who, in the middle of the War, took the time and effort to intercede and rescue Jim from this child abuse. Little Jim's wounds were doctored and he was welcomed into the Confederate White House as a member of the Davis family. President Davis himself went to court in Richmond and had free papers registered on Jim Limber, so he would always be free. Even when our President was on his way to prison for trying to obtain independence and self-government for the Southern people, he made arrangements and provided for Jim Limber's future education and care. In the Old South it was not uncommon for Blacks to take in orphaned Whites or for Whites to take in orphaned Blacks. There was a relationship between Blacks and Whites that Northerners even today do not understand or appreciate.

The War for Southern Independence was fought over the right of the local people to govern themselves versus a centralist government by the few, the rich, and the powerful. The South wanted less government, less taxes, independence, and decisions made at the local level where the people have control. The North wanted more taxes, more government, and centralism, with a compulsory union at bayonet point and decisions made in Washington D.C. rather than by the local people. The South stood on the principles of the Southerner Thomas Jefferson, who in the Declaration of Independence, stated, "Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government." In other words, the people should control the government, not the government controlling the people. The North stood on the principles of the Northerner Alexander Hamilton, who believed that government should be ruled by an intellectual aristocracy, maintained by the enlightened self-interest of the wealthy rather than the common people, governing themselves. Northern Abolitionists such as William Lloyd Garrison, burned the U.S. Constitution in the streets, calling it "a pact with the devil." Lincoln likewise brutally violated nearly every article and amendment to the U.S. Constitution, throwing over 35,000 Northern Citizens in prison as political prisoners, including state legislators, without cause or trial, as well as, violently closing a dozen opposition newspapers and suppressing freedom of speech.

President Jefferson Davis and the Confederate States Congress never did such things. The Southern people took the U.S. Constitution with them when they voluntarily withdrew from the voluntary Union and brought forth upon this continent, a new nation, where the right of the local people to govern themselves was protected.

Just as with the War for American Independence of 1776, the War for Southern Independence of 1861 was fought over "taxation without representation." The North was constantly trying to raise taxes on Southerners through high tariffs on imported goods, in order to protect the inefficient big businesses in the North which could not compete with manufactured goods from England and France with whom the South traded cotton. The South did not have factories and had to import most finished products.

The Industrial Revolution allowed England and France to produce and ship across the Atlantic products that were cheaper than the products Northern manufacturers, who refused to modernize, could produce with their White child labor- ten-year-old children working sixteen hours a day in "sweat shops" for mere pennies and sleeping in the streets. Slaves in the South were treated much better than child laborers in the North.

When the taxes on imports were rejected, rich big businessmen in the North were promised that, if elected, Lincoln would drastically raise the import tax. That is why the Southern states quickly began to escape from the tax net that Lincoln was spreading. Within Lincoln's first month in office, the U.S. Congress had passed the Morrill Tariff, which was the highest import tax in U.S. history, more than doubling the import tax rate from 20% to 47%, which was enough to bankrupt many Southerners. This oppressive tax was what pushed Southern states to legally withdraw from the voluntary Union, not slavery.

Since the Southerners had escaped the tax by withdrawing from the Union, the only way the North could collect this oppressive tax was to invade the Confederate States and force them at gunpoint back into the Union. It was to collect this import tax to satisfy his Northern industrialist supporters that Abraham Lincoln invaded our South and not to free any slaves. Lincoln's war cost the lives of 600,000 Americans

When Lincoln invaded Charleston and then Virginia, all Southerners- Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Indians, Orientals, Protestants, Catholics, Jews, rich and poor, male and female almost to a person rose up and volunteered their services in defense of the Confederate States of America because all were going to suffer from this horrible federal tax. Nowhere in the history of movements of independence and self-government have a people been so united in purpose and dedicated to the cause of Independence. No, not even in 1776 did the thirteen colonies receive such support and sacrifice by the people, and that war was fought over a 3% tax on tea!

My fellow Americans, the South was right! The Confederate battle flag represents all Southerners and even Northern Confederates from states such as Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, and others, who supported the South and who even tried to secede from the Union and form their own nation but whose efforts for freedom were crushed by Lincoln's troops. Confederate Indians, Hispanics, Blacks, and Whites all received Confederate pensions after the War and attended Confederate veterans' reunions together, year after year, just as they had suffered and fought together during the War.The Confederate battle flag represents all Confederates, regardless of race or religion, and is the symbol of less government, less taxes, and the right of a people to govern themselves. It is flown in memory and honor of our Confederate ancestors and veterans who willingly shed their blood for Southern independence


dixiescv.org
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 37
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/7/2015 6:43:17 PM
Its nice to see that the SC lawmakers are moving toward removing or banning the stars & bars from state grounds; hopefully they'll have the fortitude to carry it through. Hope that other southern states will follow suit

Its is too bad that it took the murder of a bunch of decent pple for them to finally realize what it truly stands for (once you look beyond the fluff about it representing so-called southern pride!).
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 38
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/7/2015 7:10:29 PM
LOL. If you think removing the Stars and Bars is going to demoralize Whites even more ; you are sadly mistaken. Whatever the outcome in South Carolina , the White Pride Movement is myriad with symbolism. My personal favorite being the MIOAK symbol. The Celtic Cross remains an International bastion of White Pride. The seed of White Nationalism was planted centuries ago. Our flags are numerous and sacred ; YANNO , I'm sorry , the Venable Brothers and Gutzon Borglum have created a Mount Rushmore for the Southern White Male. Stone Mountain. Yes, White Pride in Granite. Our heroic Generals. You will have one helluva time stealing this one from White Culture.
NON SILBA SED ANTHAR
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 39
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/7/2015 9:56:49 PM

If you think removing the Stars and Bars is going to demoralize Whites even more


No, actually I think its gonna bring many of them to their senses
in knowing that they should NOT be honoring a banner of the losers, but instead (as Americans) they should embrace the banner of the Stars & Stripes, The same FLAG for which over 600K US servicemen gave their lives to defeat fascism, imperialism, Nazism (aka the forces of hate and racism).



My personal favorite being the MIOAK symbol


and symbolizing what?
what has the KKK achieved for society and for whites in their acts of terror?



the Venable Brothers and Gutzon Borglum have created a Mount Rushmore for the Southern White Male. Stone Mountain. Yes, White Pride in Granite.


Pride in what? Loser-ship!
A monument to 3 LOSERS who failed!
Jackson (moe); Lee (Larry); Davis (Curly)



Our heroic Generals. You will have one helluva time stealing this one from White Culture.


I'm white and I know of no such whites that holds these 3 clowns in any kind heroic honor.

Anyone with a working brain should have known that if you were gonna secede from the UNION, you had to make solid preparations to be dam sure that this was a WAR that you were gonna win right from the beginning, and they failed to do that!

You want them to be revered in honor; without having won a war!



The Celtic Cross remains an International bastion of White Pride.


Maybe in your warped mind it is!
www.whats-your-sign.com/celtic-cross-meaning.htlm
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 40
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 5:07:36 AM
Might I add the elder Venable brother was a very skilled barrister. So skilled that he became the preferred council for Black Nationalists of LA..You see , the 10th Amendment applies to ALL American Citizens. Stop the hate ; separate.
 rhinestonesky
Joined: 6/9/2015
Msg: 41
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 7:43:54 AM
An interesting take on this debate is the blog Mad Man Knitting. He's a gay Southern man who is also, gasp!! Conservative. Many people, many opinions.
 Mummymania
Joined: 6/22/2015
Msg: 42
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 8:09:01 AM
Can you please explain who this "white pride movement" is? Seriously. I barely hear anything about them. The last known outspoken nutcase was David Duke, and he has been a has-been for a long time. Who is promoting this "white movement", who are its leaders. It is virtually invisible. But for your posts, it would be completely out of mind. I get there are still lots of racists out there, but they are not part of any sort of "white movement". So what is this White Movement doing? What has it accomplished. I am a history buff, and for laughs, I sometimes go to the white supremacist websites because I find them amusing, good for a laugh, at how they mangle history so much. Its kind of like your using the tenth amendment, despite the fact it says nothing that you claim it says. You all are not the deepest critical thinkers for sure. That much is clear when you read all of the Jiggery Pokery, comments at your hate web sites.

I recommend any looking for a good laugh, find any number of white supremacist websites and see what they do with history. Of course they are Holocaust deniers, but I find most amusing how they idolize Hitler, who is the most maligned man in the history of the world, who wanted nothing but peace but was forced into war by the aggressive allied powers. This stuff may be all fiction, but it s creative.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 43
view profile
History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 9:17:53 AM
“When flying your American flag, do you forget about what happened with the natives of this continent?”

The American flag has represented an evolving nation that has stood for many, many things over the years, good and bad. If Confederate sympathizers want to try to get all picky about which Confederate flag should or should not have negative connotations, then I’ll point out that the CURRENT American flag, the one with 50 stars, has only existed since 1959 when Hawaii joined the union, which itself was an impressive event considering it was the first majority-minority state allowed. As such, the current American flag was created after Brown vs. Board of Education and has never waved over a country with legal federal segregation (much less slavery) nor has it waved over a country while it was driving Native Americans off their land (for most of this flag’s history, they have been getting casinos). But I really consider that type of argument a bunch of semantics. The American flag, all versions, has represented a racist country and a non-racist country, one that has committed great atrocities and one that has done much good and most importantly, one that is currently largely doing the right thing.

Every single Confederate flag was created for a racist organization whose primary purpose of existence was to keep the black population enslaved. This organization was destroyed long before it or its flags could stand for anything else.

“Anyway what this thread reveals about the Confederate Flag is that many Americans suffer from confirmation bias and nothing will ever convince them that it represents anything other than racism and white supremacy. Well this guy makes some good points.”

No, he does not. *He* suffers from confirmation bias and much like all other Confederate sympathizers, is attempting to rewrite history. It is difficult to believe these so-called Civil War history “experts” could possibly have read all the contemporary literature and records and come to any other conclusion besides the Confederacy being a racist organization founded for any other reason than the right to retain slavery. Again, it doesn’t matter why the North was fighting the war, because the South started it – instead of agreeing to another compromise that would have allowed them to keep slavery, they committed treason by illegally seceding from the union then attacking a United States federal fort while preparing to attack others. What do you think’s going to happen when you attack the United States army? Exactly what happens when you attack the United States army today. As this guy himself mentions, Lincoln had no intentions of going to war or freeing the slaves until the SOUTH ATTACKED. The Confederate states were still legally part of the United States (since there is no Constitutional clause for secession), so when US troops began entering Confederate states after the Confederacy attacked Ft. Sumter, it was really no different than if Obama directs troops in Pennsylvania to move into Virginia right now – just federal troops moving from one state to the other.

“There was a relationship between Blacks and Whites that Northerners even today do not understand or appreciate.”

Here, I am certainly in agreement with Mr. Dixie.

“They have demanded, and now demand equality between the white and negro races, under our constitution; equality in representation, equality in right of suffrage, equality in the honors and emoluments of office, equality in the social circle, equality in the rights of matrimony... freedom to the slave, but eternal degradation for you and me.” – William Harris, Mississippi Civil War politician

“That would be a recognition that slavery is a sin, and confine the institution to its present limits. The moment that slavery is pronounced a moral evil – a sin – by the general government, that moment the safety of the rights of the south will be entirely gone.” – Mississippi Civil War Judge Alexander Handy

“Lincoln’s program (is) based upon the single idea that the African is equal to the Anglo-Saxon, and with the purpose of placing our slaves on a position of equality with ourselves and our friends of every condition. We, of South Carolina, hope soon to greet you in a Southern Confederacy, where white men shall rule our destinies, and from which we may transmit to our posterity the rights, privileges, and honor left us by our ancestors.”—South Carolina Civil War Era Congressman John McQueen

“The slave holder and non-slaveholder must ultimately share the same fate; all be degraded to a position of equality with free negroes, stand side by side with them at the polls, and fraternize in all the social relations of life, or else there will be an eternal war of races, desolating the land with blood, and utterly wasting all the resources of the country. Secession (is) the only means by which the heaven ordained superiority of the white over the black race could be sustained.” ” – Alabama Civil War politician Stephen Hale

“The color of the white man is now, in the South, a title of nobility in his relations as to the negro. In the Southern slaveholding States, where menial and degrading offices are turned over to be per formed exclusively by the Negro slave, the status and color of the black race becomes the badge of inferiority, and the poorest non-slaveholder may rejoice with the richest of his brethren of the white race, in the distinction of his color.” – John Townsend, Civil War Era plantation owner, editor and politician

Oh, the big guys were in on it, too:

“Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.” – Confederate Vice President Alexander Hamilton Stephens

“We recognize the fact of the inferiority stamped upon that race of men by the Creator, and from the cradle to the grave, our Government, as a civil institution, marks that inferiority.” – Confederate President Jefferson Davis, that wonderful and benevolent adopter of black children

And still my favorite, that I mentioned in another thread:

South Carolina Civil War era Rev. Furman: “every Negro in South Carolina and every other Southern state will be his own master; nay, more than that, will be the equal of every one of you. If you are tame enough to submit, abolition preachers will be at hand to consummate the marriage of your daughters to black husbands.”

This article does an incredible job of actually putting you in to 1850s/60s Southern states and understanding what people were actually saying and thinking (not to mention explaining why white non-slave holders were willing to risk their lives fighting for the Confederacy when they had no direct stake in slavery itself -- hint: it had nothing to do with states' rights):

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/civil-war-overview/why-non-slaveholding.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/

“Who is promoting this ‘white movement’, who are its leaders.”

Here be Mr. Dylann Roof’s church, with its preacher Earl Holt powerful enough to donate to several Republican presidential candidates:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Conservative_Citizens

I would say Roof is probably its greatest accomplishment to date, but undoubtedly not its last.
 Mummymania
Joined: 6/22/2015
Msg: 44
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 9:23:57 AM

I would say Roof is probably its greatest accomplishment to date, but undoubtedly not its last.


I suppose they are out there, but does anybody, anywhere pay any attention to them? Do they ever accomplish anything? They can't change any laws to favor whites because of the Constitution (how it is interpreted today), and the Civil Rights Act. And best I can tell, nobody pays them any mind, neither conservatives nor liberals nor moderates. The white supremacist on this board may as well be pissing in the wind for all of the good his ranting is doing for him and his cause. Besides that, he tries to be cute in his posts, but really it makes his posts nonsensical on their face. Jiggery Pokery to the nth degree imho.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 45
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 9:47:31 AM

Stop the hate ; separate.


I'm all for "stop the hate - integrate". It's the haters of the world who feel the need to separate - have at 'er - you won't be missed on your mountaintop eking out your paranoid existence.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 46
view profile
History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 10:49:25 AM
"And best I can tell, nobody pays them any mind, neither conservatives nor liberals nor moderates."

Apparently the Republican presidential candidates who accepted donations from Holt weren't bothered enough by his organization's racist ramblings to reject the offer until after it was found that Roof was inspired by Holt and the CCC. So I wouldn't go so far as to say they are "paying no mind" but clearly they either weren't paying attention or they were and had no issue with CCC's messages until it developed a very negative association. For CCC's part, after they discovered they inspired Roof, they, like Trump, doubled-down.

Also check out the League of the South, whose billboards I see in Georgia and Alabama every time I go home. Even police officers decided to join that one:

http://www.al.com/news/anniston-gadsden/index.ssf/2015/06/anniston_police_in_suspected_h.html

(I'm from the Anniston area, by the way.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_the_South

Its ultimate goal is "a free and independent Southern republic." Surely that doesn't sound familiar. Supposedly the reason they need this "Southern republic" is because the United States has become too anti-Christian. Although much racism is spouted at their meetings, they have little official racist documentation. Basically white supremacism has largely gone underground because it's no longer PC to espouse such beliefs, so organizations like CCC and League of the South do it as indirectly as possible in public... while letting it all hang out on anonymous message boards. Doesn't mean outright white supremacist groups don't still exist -- the remnants of the KKK and Neonazi groups pop out into the open now and then, but I agree with you: nobody takes them seriously, even those that believe what they're saying, because in the modern world white hoods and robes are pretty goofy. But they were scary as hell when I was growing up rural Alabama. (Interestingly my mother had the "privilege" of teaching the son of the Grand Wizard of the KKK when I was a kid. She said he was very quiet and withdrawn but a good student who said "Yes, ma'am" and "No, ma'am" respectfully all the time like any other Southerner. Then again, he probably thought she was a 100% white woman, like most of her students and my classmates did.)

"It's the haters of the world who feel the need to separate - have at 'er - you won't be missed on your mountaintop eking out your paranoid existence."

The problem with this is the same as it was in 1860: the innocent get trapped in the land of the guilty. So, yeah, if a bunch of segregationists want to live on top of a mountain top and pat each other on the back for the rest of their lives, sure. But League of the South wants the old Confederacy to secede again. That's not all that farfetched considering nearly 50% of Alabamians (and the majority of white Alabamians) voted to keep interracial sexual/marital relationships illegal in this century (that is, the 21st). And that was before they REALLY got p-o-ed at the federal government for gay marriage and Obamacare. So what happens to minorities in a League of the South version of Alabama? This is why it would have been a bad idea for there to have been a secession clause, at least one that allows for states to break away without federal government approval. You'd better have a better reason to secede than "so we can legally practice racism."
 Mummymania
Joined: 6/22/2015
Msg: 47
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 11:05:49 AM
Politicians will take money from anybody so long as its not the type of organization that can hurt them in the polls.. My whole point is that nobody pays attention to them because they are like Toothless dogs. They can do nothing but rant. They have been ranting forever. They have changed nothing and will never change anything, especially because the Constitution and the Federal Code prevents them from doing anything at all. Its ranting, that's all . . . our on board supremacist is pissing into the wind.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 48
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 11:50:47 AM

Politicians will take money from anybody so long as its not the type of organization that can hurt them in the polls.. My whole point is that nobody pays attention to them because they are like Toothless dogs. They can do nothing but rant. They have been ranting forever. They have changed nothing and will never change anything, especially because the Constitution and the Federal Code prevents them from doing anything at all. Its ranting, that's all . . . our on board supremacist is pissing into the wind.

I agree. I see somewhat of a parallel with the province of Quebec in Canada. Constantly threatening to split from the rest of Canada but expecting the same handouts from the rest of the country that they currently are accustomed to. As much as a large number of them they would like to separate, the majority are smart enough to know that they'd be cutting off the hand that feeds them. The rest of Canada's debt would drop by 1/4 and Quebec's already high debt would increase by at least 1/4 more. Separate but "equal"...hardly.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 49
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/8/2015 6:58:59 PM
msg 43


Who is promoting this "white movement", who are its leaders. It is virtually invisible.


That is because most whites regard it as a joke!
3 losers get canonized on a granite wall in Ga., and for reasons unknown, they are supposed to be a source of "white" pride!

I could maybe better understand it if they honored some whites who actually made a positive & lasting impact such as: Neil Armstrong, Douglas MacArthur, Babe Ruth, the Wright Bros (to name a few).
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 50
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/9/2015 4:37:25 AM
Ford , Edison , Linbergh , Firestone . All , racially and zio aware. All, White Nationalist . Read "The International Jew" by Henry Ford. A man ahead of his time.

The Invisible Empire , remains Invisible. For a reason. By 2020 we will be the biggest racial minority in a nation formed by our ancestors. We will survive , thrive and provide a future for White Children.
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