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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The confederate flag debate.      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 J3LV3HL_WV3JP
Joined: 4/5/2015
Msg: 101
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damnPage 5 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

It is not the British or Australian education system that is lacking, it is the American one. Teaching people that only Africans were enslaved in the Americas is actually racist, trouble is people actually believe it because it suits their agenda.


Believe me, every Irishman I know is well aware of who the first slaves were.

And they're not looting or blaming "whitey" people for their problems 300 years later.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 102
view profile
History
the confederate flag debate
Posted: 7/13/2015 4:15:20 PM
"Wise men will never do battle over mere symbols, but they may fight to the death over what the symbols mean." - (attributed to who, I don't know)

However, I believe that it would be a mistake to take this to guarantee that everyone in here who're arguing over this are wise men.

And now for some comic relief -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7XpvbzYqbI
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 103
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/13/2015 4:49:33 PM
""""sentenced to hard labour in the colonies?"""

sounds like a criminal.

But I get your point, though. That explains it. The slavery.SO THAT's why IRISH are alcoholics.

*******See what I did there?*******

It is called stereotyping. Like "looting or blaming "whitey" people for their problems"

Stereotyping - NOT GOOD.
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 104
the confederate flag debate
Posted: 7/13/2015 4:53:03 PM

And they're not looting or blaming "whitey" people for their problems 300 years later.


In related news:

9 Photos of White People Rioting That Put Ferguson into Perspective

http://mic.com/articles/105198/9-photos-of-white-people-rioting-put-the-ferguson-demonstrations-in-perspective
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 105
the confederate flag debate
Posted: 7/13/2015 5:07:00 PM

I have an Irish ancestor and he was transported to Australia as follows"sentenced to hard labour in the colonies for the term of his natural life" and you expect me to accept he was an "indentured servant", well that is a lot of crap.He was a slave, period.

No... he was a criminal... a "thug"... with a life sentence...

Dude... We all know that all the colonies were used as penal "insitutions"... Maybe your Irish ancestor shouldn't have committed a capital crime... Who did he murder or rape...?

Here is what American curriculums don't teach about slavery.



Dude... you should stay away from the conspiracy pages... You would look far less like a "stupid fvck" if you did...

Here...

Debunked: the Global Research article on “Irish Slaves”

It is doubtful that the “author” of this awful Global Research article even exists. John Martin cannot be found. According to Irish Central this ghost with a penchant for the ahistorical is an “Expert”

Let’s break it down.

“The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His proclamation of 1625…“

1. There was no Irish slave trade at this time.

2. James II was born in 1633, eight years after he is supposed to have made this proclamation.

3. The "30,000” claim in relation to the the early 1600s is a ludicrous exaggeration as around 50-60,000 migrated to the New World from Ireland during the entire seventeenth century.

4. The vast majority of Irish who settled in the New World in the 17th century did so voluntarily.

“By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70 percent of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves.”

5. The Irish were not slaves in Antigua and Montserrat, they were indentured servants, planters, labourers, craftsmen, merchants etc.

6. Circa 70% of Montserrat was populated by the Irish, it was arguably an Irish pseudo-colony at this time (late seventeenth century). Many of these Irish colonists in Montserrat owned slaves, imported slaves and traded slaves, all of whom were African.

“Ireland quickly became the biggest source of human livestock for English merchants. The majority of the early slaves to the New World were actually white.”

7. No, indentured servants were not slaves, they had legal rights and their term of service was both temporary and contracted (i.e. most decided to become an indentured servant) Their children were born free.

8. Slaves on the other hand were treated exactly like livestock, and all of these slaves were African.

“During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. “

9. A complete fabrication

“In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, [Oliver] Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.”

10. Huge exaggeration in numbers. Circa 10,000 were forcibly deported from Ireland during Cromwellian era. They were sold into indentured servitude. All who survived were freed in 1660 at the restoration of the English monarchy. None were chattel slaves.

11. Cromwell made no such deportation order re: 2000 children, but a member of his government infamously did in 1655 (not 1656). Vile as the scheme was, it was never implemented. Read Patrick J. Corish or Professor Nini Rodgers on this.

“It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.”

12. A clever lie. It equates the purchase of slaves (lifetime service, own their children, no legal status) with the purchase of the labour contract of a servant (5/6 years service, have to pay freedom dues at the end). Thus obviously slaves cost more.

13. Anti-Catholic sentiment and prejudice was rife at this time but no Catholic was treated worse than a chattel slave. Absurd.

“The Irish were further exploited when the British began to “breed” Irish women - or girls, sometimes as young as 12 - with African males.”

14. Another lie. There is no evidence of this, in fact all of the colonies passed laws on miscegenation that punished voluntary unions between white females and black slaves.

15. Furthermore, the quote that follows about “forbidding the practice of mating Irish slave women to African slave men for the purpose of producing slaves for sale.” gives the impression it is from a primary document, but it is not. It’s a quote from a blog by James F. Cavanaugh from 2003, “Clann Chief Herald of the Kavanagh family”

http://theirishwereslavestoo.tumblr.com/post/120600939730/debunked-the-global-research-article-on-irish

Or read the full, annotated "debunking" here...

https://www.academia.edu/9475964/The_Myth_of_Irish_Slaves_in_the_Colonies

I'll match my "Liam Hogan, Irish Historian"... for your anonymous "John Martin, Racist Conspiracy Hack"...

Any more stupid white supremicist sh!t to post...?
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 106
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/13/2015 6:23:39 PM

J3LV3HL_WV3JP
Or maybe you can ask that white sheets be banned from Wal-Mart. Because, you know, when you see those white sheets coming, you know you're in trouble.

the Klan wear white dresses not white sheets


J3LV3HL_WV3JP
Believe me, every Irishman I know is well aware of who the first slaves were.

And they're not looting or blaming "whitey" people for their problems 300 years later.

then who was the Irish blaming when they were using bombs to blow up people in Belfast Northern Ireland for 40 years starting in 1969 ..
 tgif333
Joined: 4/16/2015
Msg: 107
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/13/2015 6:55:41 PM
I believe you should be able to like or dislike anyone you choose.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 108
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/13/2015 9:09:19 PM

""""sentenced to hard labour in the colonies?"""

sounds like a criminal.

But I get your point, though. That explains it. The slavery.SO THAT's why IRISH are alcoholics.

*******See what I did there?*******

It is called stereotyping. Like "looting or blaming "whitey" people for their problems"

Stereotyping - NOT GOOD.

Yep. Hard to believe he is one of the alleged countless racially sensitive people who continue to cherish the Confederate Battle Flag.

Question: why does no one have nostalgia for the flag of the Confederate States of America-- just the battle flag that was resurrected by those against the civil rights movement?
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 109
view profile
History
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/13/2015 11:03:32 PM
Further to the slave/indentured slave stooshie i was watching a documentary about the sex trade workers from eastern europe. The show
documented how lassies are promised work abroad earning big cash. They then get to the destination, have their passports taken and are
then used as sex trade slaves.

But according to the definition of slave/indentured slave being used on here the lassies are not slaves at all. They go to the destination voluntarily
to better their lives (alas not true at all). So going on what is said on here they are indentured servants. Or is the definition used wrong? They are not
captured by their fellow countrymen and sold on to be shipped to another country. They volunteer.

Bet they are glad to know that the off topic forum on pof free dating site reckons that they do not qualify as slaves.

Fun
On sunday it was the 12th july when six of the counties of ulster have a celebration. I think you should have a wee look
on youtube then ponder how many of the celebrants consider themselves irish. We will never see a united ireland in my
lifetime. Mores the pity.

And scottish independence. A driving licence? Really? You think the vote was based on a drivers licence?

As for the uk's and oz's education system. I shall hold my hands up. I am as thick as shite. But the uk has or had last year
six of the top 20 unis in the world. No bad for a paltry 60 million folk.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 110
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 12:14:29 AM

Further to the slave/indentured slave stooshie i was watching a documentary about the sex trade workers from eastern europe. The show
documented how lassies are promised work abroad earning big cash. They then get to the destination, have their passports taken and are
then used as sex trade slaves.

But according to the definition of slave/indentured slave being used on here the lassies are not slaves at all. They go to the destination voluntarily
to better their lives (alas not true at all). So going on what is said on here they are indentured servants. Or is the definition used wrong? They are not
captured by their fellow countrymen and sold on to be shipped to another country. They volunteer.

Bet they are glad to know that the off topic forum on pof free dating site reckons that they do not qualify as slaves.


Oh geez dude... Was your supplier sold out...?

Seriously dude... they did NOT "volunteer to become sex trade slaves"... they volunteered for what they believed were legitimate jobs... under legitimate immigrant worker provisions... they are the victims of a criminal kidnapping...

The people who indentured themselves for passage to the colonies were not... in the main... duped by criminal conspiracies... Passage in those times cost half a year... or more... of an average wage... which was unaffordable for people with subsistence incomes and no access to modern credit... They knew exactly what they were getting into...

And for those few who were criminally duped... well guess what... it was also illegal then...

Snatching or buying a black man from Africa... completely against his will (because they weren't "people", really... not like God intended anyway... Somewhere between "real people" and animals)... with no need to resort to criminal deception... wasn't...

You can't honestly believe that the barbarities of 17th/18th century criminal punishments and debt laws... amount to anything at all the same as... forced chattel slavery through deliberate and systematic kidnapping... or that it even begins to amount to close the same thing... in scope or severity... because really... that would just be fvckin' pathetic...
 J3LV3HL_WV3JP
Joined: 4/5/2015
Msg: 111
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 4:53:30 AM

then who was the Irish blaming when they were using bombs to blow up people in Belfast Northern Ireland for 40 years starting in 1969 ..


That's a RELIGION issue, not a RACE issue. Religion will be the death of us all.
 tgif333
Joined: 4/16/2015
Msg: 112
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 4:57:34 AM
mostly organized religion sir. ^^^^

organized religion. those that write books and make rules.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 113
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 11:10:11 AM

vlad dracul
We will never see a united ireland in my lifetime. Mores the pity.

which is why you will never see an Independent Scotland in your lifetime, as long as the Union Jack flies, Scotland will never be anything more than an England commonwealth


vlad dracul
And scottish independence. A driving licence? Really? You think the vote was based on a drivers licence?
having the Union Jack on Scots driver licenses is the same as having a picture of the Queen or Prince Charles on it ...or perhaps Camilla Parker Bowles ...


J3LV3HL_WV3JP
That's a RELIGION issue, not a RACE issue. Religion will be the death of us all.

sorry but it wasn't a religious issue, what took place in Belfast Northern Ireland was a fight for a United Ireland independent of British rule, but just like Scotland Ireland is also "forced" to fly "The Union Jack"

the Union Jack is England's Confederate Flag and used as a way of sticking it to the Scots, Welsh and Irish that they will never have Independence ...

you have been assimilated.... resistance is futile ....you are Borg ...oops...er... I meant you are Brits
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 114
view profile
History
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 1:27:22 PM
“And they're not looting or blaming ‘whitey’ people for their problems 300 years later.”

Says the guy defending a 150 year-old flag.

Confederate sympathizers will be the first ones to tell blacks to “let it go, slavery was 150 years ago,” right before they drag out their 1865 uniforms and 1865 flags and 1865 guns and start chasing each other around a field while proclaiming “Man, life sure was better back in the old days.”

Look, dude: my parents were born into segregation, of the worst type: Alabama segregation. And I missed it by only a few years myself and spent my entire elementary and middle school years being told I did not belong at that school. Do you seriously think a population isn’t going to be negatively affected for generations after generations of being treated as property and inferior human beings? That somehow the Civil Rights Acts instantaneously fixed everything that happened in the 300 years prior? By that point, legal discrimination had already taken its toll on black culture, forcing many of them into hopeless ghettos with few opportunities for employment or escape, leading to a cycle of poverty that, honestly, will probably never be stopped. There are just too many people involved and too many places where it happened.

If immediately upon slavery (and Reconstruction) ending, the former Confederate states and their white population had decided not to legalize racism for another 100 years, firing up the Klan, lynching every one that looked at them funny and setting up “separate but equal” with vastly inferior educational institutions and instead treated blacks as equals and helped them get on their feet (after all, none of them had property or educations), the country would be a very different place today. For one thing, the Great Migration to the northern cities (which for the most part couldn’t handle that much migration, especially with the Great Depression on the horizon) would not have happened 1910-1930, which ultimately became the primary contributor to the current urban issues. Arguably the fact that my (highly educated) parents and ancestors chose to stay in rural Alabama indirectly led to me being a high school valedictorian, college honors graduate and successful career-oriented person – being born in a Chicago ghetto to jobless high school drop-outs would have put me on a completely different path. But then again, so would have been being born into a family that had been wealthy for generations thanks to non-discriminatory opportunities. Point is, an entire population gets placed in a major disadvantage for hundreds of years, you should not be so surprised at the results.

“But, if anyone, black or white, believes that slavery was only an African experience, then they’ve got it completely wrong”

I’m not telling you there have only been black slaves in America. I’m telling you that if you came here of your own free will in exchange for servitude, you are an indentured servant. If you were brought here by force, then you are a slave. BY DEFINITION.

Prisoners shipped anywhere is a grey area. It kind of depends on what they were in prison for (many of that era were political prisoners and probably not deserving of being in prison) and the circumstances under which they were shipped. That’s a different subject altogether and has nothing to do with this thread or any of its tangents, except for the one you are attempting to create. It’s certainly a well-known fact that early Australia was a penal colony so I’m not surprised you would have such relatives and I imagine his life was not so good (but was that his own doing?).

One thing is for certain on this topic: although there may have been a number of white “slaves” in colonial America, hardly any of the blacks were “indentured servants.”

***

As likely the only person in this thread with extensive real life experience with the KKK (I refuse to believe biala is a real person), I do think their modern influence is greatly exaggerated, but that’s only because most current racists and white supremacists find the KKK’s costuming to be quite silly. Racism is much more hidden and subtle these days, forced underground by PC (ask those Oklahoma frat boys). When I was a child, I ran into KKK rallies all the time where we lived, but they’re now extremely rare, and lynchings are almost non-existent (interestingly, I was named after a great uncle who was officially lynched). Dylann Roof is pretty much the exception, not the rule, and he himself is a pretty complicated individual on this topic – I’ve known whites much more consistently racist than him that never (or at least haven’t yet) killed a bunch of black people. Racists tend to be more goofy bullies than anything else, unless they get elected to office or put on a police force, of course.
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 115
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 3:59:31 PM

which is why you will never see an Independent Scotland in your lifetime, as long as the Union Jack flies, Scotland will never be anything more than an England commonwealth


So what? England isn't even an independent country and most likely we will never see an independent England. You shouldn't really be making comments about stuff you have no idea about. There is no such thing as an English Commonwealth.England and Scotland are both internal divisions of the UK.

Which part of the word "United" don't you understand? Do you even understand that the Union Jack contains the Scottish flag? Anyway in Scotland they generally fly the Scottish flag on public buildings and some fly it along with the Union Jack.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 116
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 4:48:17 PM

Robaustralia
So what? England isn't even an independent country and most likely we will never see an independent England.

sorry but England is an Independent Country, the countries that they have conquered and/or control are refer to as commonwealths, clearly someone such as yourself from Australia would know this...especially since your country flies the Union Jack and has the Queen of England on their currency ...

and as they say.... if you have the Queen on your money...you're a Brit

The Australian Flag is yet another example of how the Union Jack is the Confederate flag of England
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 117
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 5:35:34 PM

sorry but England is an Independent Country, the countries that they have conquered and/or control are refer to as commonwealths, clearly someone such as yourself from Australia would know this...especially since your country flies the Union Jack and has the Queen of England on their currency ...

and as they say.... if you have the Queen on your money...you're a Brit

The Australian Flag is yet another example of how the Union Jack is the Confederate flag of England


Hawaii has the Union Jack on their flag as well, that means Hawaiians are Brits according to your logic. Oh but i forgot Hawaii is a US State are they not?.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 118
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 9:15:35 PM

the Union Jack is England's Confederate Flag and used as a way of sticking it to the Scots, Welsh and Irish that they will never have Independence ...


actually the Scots had a legitimate chance of opting out of the Uk by ballot this year
but they wimped out and elected to stay connected with their overlords

so much for Scottish war legends, national pride & dignity!
Just pass on up the gov't cheese!


used as a way of sticking it to the Scots, Welsh and Irish


Perhaps, but none of these blokes see it that way;
to them its just a warm & fuzzy security blanket.
 robaustralia
Joined: 12/1/2014
Msg: 119
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/14/2015 11:16:33 PM

actually the Scots had a legitimate chance of opting out of the Uk by ballot this year
but they wimped out and elected to stay connected with their overlords

so much for Scottish war legends, national pride & dignity!


The greatest concentration of wimpy American loyalists were concentrated in New York which means wimpy New Yorkers never had the balls to oppose the English. When the going got tough though most of them wimped out and went to Canada or the Caribbean. At least the Scottish didn't run and hide from their enemies like the wimpy New Yorkers did.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 120
view profile
History
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/15/2015 4:13:18 AM
Many have made great points here.

I take offense that you can be so ignorant( OR NOT), and start yet another thread you know for a fact will "start something".



My brother has a confederate flag tag on his truck -- it's been there for years -

Did his KKK bumper sticker wear off?
Nothing offensive about the Kentucky Kit Kats roller derby team, what so ever.



and one of his good friends is black.

How freaking "white" of him to have one black friend.

What it means to others, not YOU is whats important.
Slavery and oppression.



The bill being passed and the flag coming down from the state capitol has been a long fight and very emotional for real southerners that aren't ignorant racists..

You are NOT southern.

I have a million things I could say to you/your post but choose not too.
You wouldn't get it ,or worse wouldn't care to.
 MissScawlett
Joined: 3/26/2015
Msg: 121
The confederate flag debate.
Posted: 7/15/2015 6:12:36 AM
^^^Well, aren't you just the epitome of southern charm and grace.

Frankly, I've grown tired of your bashing everything I post. I was merely trying to have a discussion about a touchy subject -- not "trying to start something" as you so eloquently put it. I was not going to respond to your post, but I'm tired of you bullying me and anyone else who doesn't share your opinion.

If you don't like what I post, there are a million other threads that you can post in.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 122
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/15/2015 7:06:22 AM

Robaustralia
Hawaii has the Union Jack on their flag as well, that means Hawaiians are Brits according to your logic. Oh but i forgot Hawaii is a US State are they not?.

actually I said that if you have the Queen on your money you're a Brit, that was in reference as to how Australians attempt to make claims that they aren't Brits or still ruled by the British Empire

but anyway clearly you know that the American Flag "Stars and Stripes" is flown in Hawaii....but those Hawaiian legislators that are still mad about Americans overthrowing their government opt to fly England's Union Jack Confederate flag, which is exactly the same thing that took place in the USA as to why Legislation had to be passed to bring the Southern Confederate flag down


Yule_liquor
actually the Scots had a legitimate chance of opting out of the Uk by ballot this year
but they wimped out and elected to stay connected with their overlords

William Wallace is probably turning over in the grave saying WTF? ...Mel Gibson should make "Braveheart 2" in which he comes back as a ghost and scare the Scots of today into voting yes for Independence


Robaustralia
At least the Scottish didn't run and hide from their enemies like the wimpy New Yorkers did.

those wimpy New Yorkers and the likes did in less that Ten Years what The Scots and Australians couldn't accomplished in thousands of years
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 123
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/15/2015 7:09:51 AM
Actually New York was pretty much a loyalist city during your revolution. I've seen American historians argue that the American revolution should be more accurately describes as a civil war.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 124
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/15/2015 8:23:06 AM
post 121

Another of your many ignorant posts! Let me enlighten you free of charge!


The greatest concentration of wimpy American loyalists were concentrated in New York


A loyalist meant that they were Brit allies, NY was a Brit stronghold; which is why it was called the Tory capital of America, and thus had no inclination to oppose the Brits to begin with!


wimpy New Yorkers never had the balls to oppose the English.


But the rest of the Colonists did, who defined the true meaning of the word "balls" because (unlike the Scots) they did not worry about the aftermath; their attitude was "just do it".


When the going got tough though most of them wimped out and went to Canada or the Caribbean.


when the going got tough (that is, when the Brits were getting their buts kicked by the Patriots), the loyalists packed their bags and headed back to England with their allies, so in that sense you are right! Good riddance!


At least the Scottish didn't run and hide from their enemies


Of course not, they just voted to let them stay in!
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 125
frankly, ms skawlit..someone might give a damn
Posted: 7/15/2015 8:29:42 AM
Actually, the loyalists were mostly expelled and had their property seized. Which, in relation to America's attitude to Cuba makes for interesting comparison. If the US were consistent, they would have to boycott all businesses traded on Wall Street, since the property was seized by a revolutionary government.
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > The confederate flag debate.