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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 26
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...Page 2 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

Restricting gun ownership will end mass shootings? Hardly.


No one said end, greatly reduce would be a better term.




Everyone who is shot goes to the hospital. On what planet are you guys from?


The one looks at people funny who spout out random facts.




not getting very far with just a knife..... those buildings coming down and that mass killing not good enough for you?
3000 victims.


Such anger and such derp, wonderful combo.





Funny to see so many foreigners advocate illegal immigration and gun control or get so worked up about our politics.


Not as funny as watching the gun nuts lose their collective sh*t when anyone mentions anything about controlling gun ownership.

It is like trying to rationalize with a fat kid over a can of pop.




I have a feeling even if you guys were armed.....
You'd get about as far as your bucket bot did.
America would chew ya'll up.


FYI: Last time we came down there we burned down your White House if memory serves me correctly.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 27
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/28/2015 10:28:19 PM


I have a feeling even if you guys were armed.....
You'd get about as far as your bucket bot did.
America would chew ya'll up.


FYI: Last time we came down there we burned down your White House if memory serves me correctly.

That's was nothing... compared to what we do to Ft. Lauderdale... every spring...
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 28
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 4:37:45 AM
The greatest crimes against humanity were not committed by people breaking the law, they were committed by those following the law.

You want to take guns away...then amend the Constitution. We all know that's not going to happen, instead the federal regime will continue to circumvent the law of the land and steal rights bit by bit. The second Amendment is the last line of defense against tyranny. It's the line in the sand that huge numbers of Americans will not tolerate being crossed regardless of UN demands. History records what happens when free people allow themselves to be disarmed by "their" government.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 12/25/2014
Msg: 29
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 4:56:19 AM

And this thread is about mass shootings. A mad man with a knife isn't going to get very far in a crowded movie theatre or church.

That’s true, though it’s pretty easy to make an effective bomb. Least we forget timothy mcveigh.
So maybe guns are reducing the total number of deaths!

So Well... here is an interesting new study... one which seems to confirm the links between gun ownership, mass murder, and American cultural expectations...

The study is slanted to make the USA number 1. Cherry picking data. Picking time frames and numbers.


90 mass shooting incidents during that time frame.

So does that mean 90 incidents of 4 or more, or more likely 90 people killed?
Looking at intentional homicide, the USA is ranked 112 out of 218 nations. Not as dramatic a headline, and nothing to be proud of, but more representative. And it must mean lack of guns is no deterrent to murder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

And 90% of those critical of the USA don’t live here, they have a different culture with different values. Despite what they think, they are a little xenophobia.

I would be in favor of a national registry of guns, and moving the nomination of an ATF director out from under the Senate. The Senate had blocked the ATF having a director from 2006-2011, and recently B. Todd Jones quit as ATF director amid backlash over proposed bullet ban.

He proposed banning armor piercing bullets that can be fired from an AR-15 rifle. I am not sure why civilians need armor piercing bullets. But I think no explosive bullets are legal.

However, in 1986, Congress passed the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act, which repealed most of these provisions, including the licensing of ammunition dealers, ammunition sales recordkeeping, and the ban on interstate transfers of ammunition to unlicensed purchasers.2 None has been reenacted by Congress.

In the mid-1990s, Congress, led by Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan and then-Representative Charles Schumer, debated several proposals to regulate ammunition. The most far reaching of these bills would have reinstated the ban on mail-order sales of ammunition, brought ammunition under the Brady Act (requiring background checks at the time of transfer), limited the number of rounds a person could own, required ammunition dealer licensing with high licensing fees, placed strict sales restrictions on specific types of handgun ammunition disproportionately used in crime, and imposed high taxes on all ammunition. To date, none of these proposals has been adopted.3

Recordkeeping continues to be required for transfers of armor-piercing ammunition, however. See below under Armor-Piercing Ammunition for more information.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/20/b-todd-jones-quits-atf-director-amid-backlash-over/?page=all

It used to be we could buy a Thompson submachine gun for home protection. I imagine Blondie waking up Dagwood saying she heard a noise, and Dagwood walking down the stairs with his tommy gun.

Everyone in 1968 had to register any submachine guns they own, if not registered then it’s a felony to possess one.

I am in favor of making the rules national Vs state, and plugging the bullet holes in current legislation, but I am in favor of gun ownership in general.

I could say we have come a long way, I doubt Canadians would see it that way.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 30
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 6:01:38 AM
It would be nice if there was one simple method of comparing gun ownership to gun deaths with regard to cause and effect. But, there isn't-the data is all over the place.

I also am in favor of gun ownership, though I'm opposed to ownership of high capacity magazines for semi-automatic weapons, as well as armor piercing ammunition. I am a proponent of gun registration. I am a proponent of closing the gun show loop-hole. I am a proponent of greater gun education and safety requirements (too many children are killed by dad's night stand gun)

All that being said, to think that the second amendment was written to facilitate armed insurrection is a ludicrous suggestion. It was written at a time when there was no standing army, and my belief that the words "a well regulated militia" was in support of having a ready cadre of gun owning citizens, who were trained, to man an army should the need arise to repel any invasion of the country.

Sadly, there is a group of citizens in this country that believe armed insurrection is the intent of the second amendment. Apparently, these people have forgotten that this country is a country that has the mechanisms in place to legislate change, and would rather make change at the point of a gun waving the second amendment around like a weapon. Apparently, the fact that they cannot muster the vote to create the changes they desire, is not a deterrent to them, because they have a will and a gun and wish to force their idea of change at the point of that gun. Case in point:




YES, it IS time for a change! It's time for the 2nd to be used for its intended purpose.

1776 redux.
Monarchs fear the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd being my favorite. Without it ; we would be defenseless. Other Amendments would be at gubmint whim. The last White defense in the world is the 2nd.
The second Amendment is the last line of defense against tyranny.


I may be wrong, and I'm sure at times it really does seem like it, but aren't we governed by a government that is "we the people." If we really don't like something our recourse is to vote into power someone who will make the changes we want and have them legislate that change. And if there is enough support for that change then it happens, and if not, then it is not the "will of the people."
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 31
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 6:59:19 AM

So does that mean 90 incidents of 4 or more, or more likely 90 people killed?

I think it is pretty obvious... if you take the time to think rationally about it... The study counted "incidents of mass shootings"... not "number of victims of mass shootings"... that is pretty clear...

So how do you figure "more likely 90 people killed"... when the article CLEARLY states the time frame as over 46 years... as in 1966 to 2012... "90 people killed" doesn't rationally come out as being "more likely" over 46 years... which amounts to an average of 1.9 people per year killed in mass shootings... especially when you take into account incidents like the number Breivik killed in just one incident... 75 people... and extra especially so... when you consider that Norway didn't even make the "top 5" in the study... The US, Phillipines, Russia, Yemen and France...

I also am in favor of gun ownership, though I'm opposed to ownership of high capacity magazines for semi-automatic weapons, as well as armor piercing ammunition. I am a proponent of gun registration. I am a proponent of closing the gun show loop-hole. I am a proponent of greater gun education and safety requirements (too many children are killed by dad's night stand gun)

Which REALLY makes you wonder... how some come up with the "gun grabber" appellation... and the "take our guns away" silliness... I don't think I have seen one person here... say anything about "seizing guns"... nobody...

One really has to wonder about their capacity for sane, intelligent reasoning... when they hear things nobody is saying...
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 32
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 7:08:12 AM

The second Amendment is the last line of defense against tyranny. It's the line in the sand that huge numbers of Americans will not tolerate being crossed regardless of UN demands.


So true, as a group of gun nuts with AR15's will be able to take down the American Military.





History records what happens when free people allow themselves to be disarmed by "their" government.


Yes, killings of others goes way down.

Not to mention the number of suicides also decreases drastically.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 33
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 7:27:13 AM


The second Amendment is the last line of defense against tyranny. It's the line in the sand that huge numbers of Americans will not tolerate being crossed regardless of UN demands.

So true, as a group of gun nuts with AR15's will be able to take down the American Military.

Gee... that was rather gentle... considering... that as soon as you hear anything about "guns" and "UN demands"... or the "threat of the UN"... in the same sentence... you know that you are dealing with an unmedicated paranoiac...

Oh wait... I get it... you were concerned about possibly provoking a nutbar... Never mind...
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 34
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 7:28:09 AM

History records what happens when free people allow themselves to be disarmed by "their" government.


This is in reference to the lie about Nazi gun control, which actually only prohibited Jews and communists from owning guns, while allowing more groups to be exempt from gun laws all together, including Nazi party members.
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 35
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 9:06:38 AM
Actually I was thinking more of Cambodia and Pol Pot when I wrote it, but it's not as though it's tough to figure out that if you want to oppress somebody you'd better be certain they cannot fight back first.

Always someone willing to give up someone else's rights for them. Color of law gun regulations do not prevent gun violence, and the reason for this is painfully obvious. Someone that's okay with killing people isn't going to give a rat's rear about illegal gun control "laws". All these feel good color of law regulations accomplish is disarming law abiding Americans, as they're the only ones that are going to care about "laws" anyway.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 36
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 9:31:54 AM

All these feel good color of law regulations accomplish is disarming law abiding Americans, as they're the only ones that are going to care about "laws" anyway.

And yet... isn't it amazing just how many... of these mass shootings... were commited by "law abiding" gun owners... with their legaly acquired guns...? Well... "law abiding" until they became mass murderers anyway... but it's just a little too late... to do much about it then...

Now Finland... where you can be denied... or lose... a firearms licence for traffic violations... now THERE are some law abiding gun owners...
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 37
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 9:46:57 AM

So true, as a group of gun nuts with AR15's will be able to take down the American Military.


Why are they nuts just because they exercise a Constitutionally protected right?

The warmongering psychos in DC have the US military deployed all over the globe oppressing people in numerous countries, desperately trying to prop up the petro dollar and open new avenues to export inflation. Anyway I was told that the USAF and the entire domestic security complex failed miserably at stopping 19 guys armed with box cutters from smashing planes into buildings.

Most reports say approximately one third of Americans own at least one gun. 321,216,397 / 3 = good luck with that. There's nowhere near enough manpower in the entire US military to lock down the nation. If and when push comes to shove and gun confiscations go viral it'll be primarily UN peacekeepers and the vast majority will be foreigners. I wouldn't be so certain current and former US service men & women will be up for attacking their own countrymen and violating their own oaths to the Constitution. Remember these are the same AR15 wielding "gun nuts" you were just bashing on.
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 38
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 10:01:02 AM

And yet... isn't it amazing just how many... of these mass shootings... were commited by "law abiding" gun owners... with their legaly acquired guns...? Well... "law abiding" until they became mass murderers anyway... but it's just a little too late... to do much about it then...


How is it you believe someone that decides to kill people will have trouble finding a way to do so or a tool to do it with? Whether by legally obtained gun, illegally obtained gun, fertilizer based explosive, or the family car, people that are homicidal commit homicides. Most of these people work for the government so their murdering ways are ignored. Frankly I'm far more concerned with being killed in a traffic stop by an alleged "peace officer" enforcing some petty color of law violation than being gunned down in some random act of violence.

Now Finland... where you can be denied... or lose... a firearms licence for traffic violations... now THERE are some law abiding gun owners...

That's their problem. Here we have the 2nd Amendment. One obtains a license to do what one lacks the right to do without a license. Not sure which part of "shall not be infringed." people find ambiguous.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 39
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 10:04:59 AM

Most reports say approximately one third of Americans own at least one gun. 321,216,397 / 3 = good luck with that.
....
Remember these are the same AR15 wielding "gun nuts" you were just bashing on.

And... since that also includes... a huge majority of obese males over 45... I would say... you're talking about a "clay pigeon army"...

Most of them won't be good for anything... other than... "helping" to locate snipers...
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 40
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 11:42:54 AM

Someone that's okay with killing people isn't going to give a rat's rear about illegal gun control "laws". All these feel good color of law regulations accomplish is disarming law abiding Americans, as they're the only ones that are going to care about "laws" anyway.


When you understand that gun laws help keep guns out of the hands of people who do not give a rats azz about killing people you will be on your way to understanding what gun laws are all about.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 12/25/2014
Msg: 41
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 11:51:46 AM

So how do you figure "more likely 90 people killed"... when the article CLEARLY states the time frame as over 46 years... as in 1966 to 2012... "90 people killed" doesn't rationally come out as being "more likely" over 46 years... which amounts to an average of 1.9 people per year killed in mass shootings... especially when you take into account incidents like the number Breivik killed in just one incident... 75 people... and extra especially so... when you consider that Norway didn't even make the "top 5" in the study... The US, Phillipines, Russia, Yemen and France...


I would have to look at the raw data.

But if for instance Norway had 5 incidents, and in each 75 people were killed, then that is a total of 375 people.

If the USA had 20 incidents in which 4 people were killed in each incident, then that would be 80 people.

So I could conclude the USA had 4 TIMES as many incidents as Norway.

Which would you count as more serious?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 42
view profile
History
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 11:56:50 AM
halftime:

If you own a gun you are dozens of times more likely to be killed with it or have a loved one killed with it than you are to ever use it in defense. So, gun owners are either too stupid to realize that, or are so arrogant they figure that only applies to other people. Which means that hand gun owners are that wonderful combination of stupid and arrogant. And now they're packing. Exactly the sort of people who should only have safety scissors.


This is a classic example of a misuse and or misapplication of statistics.

* statistics aren't causational, they are observational. An amazing number of people don't realize that, on all sides of every issue.

The true fact that more guns end up being used to accidentally or purposely hurt relatives and friends than get used in genuine self-defense situations, doesn't mean that the ownership of guns causes the injuries or deaths. It just means that there are more people who have no clue what they are doing, than there are people who take everything in life seriously enough to give proper attention to how to use tools. It's also true that more people who buy hammers, hit their own fingers with them, or damage whatever they are working on, than use them knowledgeably to build high quality structures.

Similarly, the true fact that guns don't automatically cause their own misuse, doesn't prove that nothing at all needs to be done about their misuse, as too many of the Second Amendment fanatics like to pretend.

This is why I decided to become what I call a "Solutionist" instead. Solutionists don't select some philosophical concept, and then stick their heads where the sun don't shine and demand that the world adjust to their desired fantasies, we look at problems, and try to figure out what to do about them.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 12/25/2014
Msg: 43
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 12:00:03 PM

The true fact that more guns end up being used to accidentally or purposely hurt relatives and friends than get used in genuine self-defense situations, doesn't mean that the ownership of guns causes the injuries or deaths. It just means that there are more people who have no clue what they are doing, than there are people who take everything in life seriously enough to give proper attention to how to use tools. It's also true that more people who buy hammers, hit their own fingers with them, or damage whatever they are working on, than use them knowledgeably to build high quality structures.


In related news, it's very tough to find a place to rent a chainsaw, too many people hurt themselves.

With guns, maybe they should have to pass a safety test?
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 44
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 12:08:33 PM

I would have to look at the raw data.


Which is going to be very hard to do as gun stats are not tracked by everyone and all agencies.

This should help you understand that most data is estimated:


The National Crime Statistics Exchange (NCS-X)

http://www.theiacp.org/Portals/0/documents/pdfs/NCS-X_Flyer_June2014.pdf
 BussOfEsprit
Joined: 10/10/2014
Msg: 45
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 12:09:31 PM

Maybe us whitey's in Western Civilization don't deserve to be preserved. Given our track record, we aren't very nice people, what with our arrogant racist attitudes, our world-wide war-mongering led by the US, our corrupt financial system - which caused significant hardship to millions of people outside our borders (well, US borders), our destruction of the earth's environment so we can all drive big cars. Maybe some other race would do better, hmmm?

Next step is convincing you that suicide would be better for humanity. Seek professional help!!!!
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 46
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 12:51:27 PM
I've lived in countries where "the people" didn't, well, COULDN'T have guns. People were mowed down if they voted for the "wrong" person and at a whim. Like bullies in elementary high school, the military could take your lunch money or whatever whenever they wanted. The leadership could do whatever it wanted to whomever it wanted,

I used to be all for extreme gun control and taking guns away from "the masses." Not since that life experience.

Even with guns, you have to admit, Americans are a "scared of the government" people. But imagine how bad it would be otherwise.
 Eric_Summit
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 47
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 1:00:54 PM

Posted by deetristate:
"...But imagine how bad it would be otherwise..."

You are absolutely 100% correct, deetristate.
That is the brilliance of our timeless U.S. Constitution.

It is amusing how liberal gungrabbers have now convinced themselves they are far smarter than our Founding Fathers George Washington, Samuel Adams, Thomas Jefferson, John Hancock, James Madison, John Jay, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, and others...to decide what is best for our country.

 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 48
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 1:10:14 PM

I would have to look at the raw data.

Then why haven't you done that...? It is available...

But if for instance Norway had 5 incidents, and in each 75 people were killed, then that is a total of 375 people.

If the USA had 20 incidents in which 4 people were killed in each incident, then that would be 80 people.

So I could conclude the USA had 4 TIMES as many incidents as Norway.

Don't you find that just a bit silly... to merely suggest the data is misused... without actually bothering to do anything... see if it was...

Wouldn't the actual thoughtful... and somewhat more convincing argument... be to find out if there was a problem... rather than assume... some other answer is "more likely"... as in ""more likely 90 people killed"... merely because you can imagine a scenario where it might be possible...

All the more so... given the frequency with which such incidents... are all over the news... that surely you didn't miss entirely... as in... one would think you already knew your scenario was just "a shot in the dark"... before you even suggested it...?

Which would you count as more serious?

If I had to choose... I would go with the one that happens roughly every 2 years... than the one that happens roughly every 9 years... because... the greater frequency... more readily implicates a systemic problem...
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 49
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 1:23:13 PM
What is so utterly stupid about this conversation is that when a drunk driver mows down a park bench of people he/she is solely responsible, but when a whack job shoots people the gun itself shares in the blame.

I'll consider the irrational emotion based arguments Marxist's use as excuses to infringe on the 2nd as soon as their campaign to ban cars gets a good head of steam. Obvious political agendas are obvious.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 12/25/2014
Msg: 50
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/29/2015 1:25:21 PM

Then why haven't you done that...? It is available..."


You seem to be under the illusion I care enough to look for it if it exists. If it's available, then provide a link.

I think we have too much violence in the USA, but other than vote, what should I do about it? I could move, but there are other systems with even worst problems.
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...