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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 126
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...Page 6 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

Well why don't you just go right on ahead there now and tell me where I'm wrong joe. I was pretty certain $97,483,000,000 in unfunded liabilities was A LOT, particularly as it's heading in the wrong direction and perpetually growing even with interest rates are @ 0% for 7 years. Tell me how I'm wrong...though if your answer is that the US can just magically "print" more dollars to pay the debt, then feel free to not spend a bunch of time on it.


I can only speak for me, but where you are wrong is thinking that spending less on people who need it saves you any money, when in fact it ends up costing more.

It is like waiting to get lung cancer before you stop smoking.

There is no doubt a ton of money is being wasted, and close to a trillion of it is enforcing attempting to stop people from smoking a plant that makes them happy.

This happened because someone thought privatizing prisons was a good thing to do, which is another place that capitalism eats itself.
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 127
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/30/2015 8:43:20 PM


Well why don't you just go right on ahead there now and tell me where I'm wrong joe. I was pretty certain $97,483,000,000 in unfunded liabilities was A LOT, particularly as it's heading in the wrong direction and perpetually growing even with interest rates are @ 0% for 7 years. Tell me how I'm wrong...though if your answer is that the US can just magically "print" more dollars to pay the debt, then feel free to not spend a bunch of time on it.


I can only speak for me, but where you are wrong is thinking that spending less on people who need it saves you any money, when in fact it ends up costing more.
It is like waiting to get lung cancer before you stop smoking.
There is no doubt a ton of money is being wasted, and close to a trillion of it is enforcing attempting to stop people from smoking a plant that makes them happy.
This happened because someone thought privatizing prisons was a good thing to do, which is another place that capitalism eats itself.

Well now that's a very nice emotion based response to a very real and serious debt problem. I'm delighted that you believe you're so very knowledgeable about how best to spend other people's money. I'm sure that'll be of great comfort to future generations that have to pay off the debts(with interest) we're immorally racking up today. That said, squishy feel good emotions don't actually extinguish debt do they?

...now about that 97 TRILLION dollars and counting in unfunded liabilities?
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 128
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/30/2015 8:58:03 PM

Well now that's a very nice emotion based response to a very real and serious debt problem. I'm delighted that you believe you're so very knowledgeable about how best to spend other people's money. I'm sure that'll be of great comfort to future generations that have to pay off the debts(with interest) we're immorally racking up today. That said, squishy feel good emotions don't actually extinguish debt do they?


Thanks for not replying with any factual statements or logic, as it would have really killed the irony.





...now about that 97 TRILLION dollars and counting in unfunded liabilities?


Keep slashing programs and keep watching it grow, or start spending money wisely on things that foster a better environment.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 129
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/30/2015 9:17:14 PM
"He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword."

-Matthew 26:52
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 130
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/30/2015 9:30:01 PM

Keep slashing programs and keep watching it grow, or start spending money wisely on things that foster a better environment.

Ummm... HFX... He's trying to hijack the thread... didn't you notice...?

He's doing it because... he can't ever answer... any of the challenges... to his anti-gun safety nonsense... Didn't you notice...?

He has no facts... just a lot of middle school silliness... that he was sucked into believing... by some wingnut blogs... Didn't you notice...?

He was supposed to be "The One"... "The Neo"... who came charging in with a lot of pseudo-intellectual claptrap... he couldn't back up when pushed... He thought he was "The One"... who finally had the "smarts" to corner the liberals... and "win one" for the "strict Constipationalist" wingnuts... Didn't you notice...?

He couldn't win on facts... he couldn't win on passive-aggressive gloating... now... he is down to his last desperate hope... before having nothing left... but to "go full wingnut"... and he's feeling cornered...
 BialaPolska
Joined: 5/20/2015
Msg: 131
American Exceptionalism=Good Buddy Style
Posted: 8/31/2015 1:19:26 AM
POF has thousands of success stories. I'm glad. Nice. HFX and Mung have a fantastic relationship that has transpired from the "murky canadian waters". I'm so glad , a couple of happy fellows.
 gcdeb
Joined: 4/1/2015
Msg: 132
view profile
History
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 2:50:07 AM

It is interesting how people become so emotional about trying to confiscate lawfully-owned items that are Constitutionally-protected to United States citizens.
Eric, the reason some of us (used to) get so angry about the American gun laws is because it's heartbreaking to read of so many innocent people being killed just because they were at school/the cinema/getting petrol/mowing the lawn etc.

I have to admit that, sadly, I stopped being angry (frustrated is probably a better word for me) when the Sandy Hook shooting happened. I'll never forget how numb I felt as that news broke. I felt sick in my stomach that I couldn't even cry for those innocent children, for their parents and teachers, and others who loved them. All I could think was "I'm no longer surprised, nor shocked and appalled, when these things happen in America".

I actually think I understand how most Americans feel about gun ownership. I suspect that if you grow up in that environment, you would naturally feel that it is normal to own a gun for protection. I even understand the desire to own a gun because of the likelihood that a burglar or car thief (for example) is likely to try to use one against you. I get that. I feel incredibly sad for Americans who don't know any other way of life.

I don't normally get involved in debates about gun control. I've never known either side to back down on their position.

I mean no offense with my comments, just trying to explain, from an outsider, where the anger/frustration comes from.

I don't really care whether guns kill people, or people kill people. The statistics speak for themselves but gun ownership is too entrenched in America to ever be changed. While all of the bad people have access to guns, all of the good people will want to protect themselves. I get that too.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 133
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 4:46:03 AM

It is interesting how people become so emotional about trying to confiscate lawfully-owned items that are Constitutionally-protected to United States citizens.


And it is equally interesting to see how emotional those from the pro-gun side of the fence get when the topic of gun-control is raised. Any attempt to improve regulation and safety, lessen the number of senseless mass killings, while maintaining Americans second amendment rights is seen as "gun confiscation" by those whom are pro-guns.


I don't really care whether guns kill people, or people kill people.


Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. Just like cars don't kill people, people driving cars kill people.

The pro-gun claim that there is no problem and no need for any regulation of private gun sales. (Thank you for the car analogy!) Private gun sales are where there is no background check requirement for the buyer. Anyone can sell any legal gun to a buyer without knowing if the buyer is a felon, has a mental illness, and without any waiting period. I have said that 40% of gun sales are private sales, a number which comes from a decades old survey of 300 respondents. My bad. The issue, as I see it is, the only information available is a decades old survey of too few and the reason for that is that private gun sales is such a willy nilly process that there is no accountability. And gun-nuts love it that way.

The pro-gun side of the fence loves to point to 1st world nations with high gun ownership, Israel, Switzerland, Finland, while at the same time ignoring that 100% of these high gun ownership first world nations have strict gun regulation laws. Private gun sales are highly regulated in much the same manner as commercial gun sales.


I stopped being angry (frustrated is probably a better word for me) when the Sandy Hook shooting happened.


I didn't stop being angry and frustrated when the Sandy Hook mass murders of 26 school children happened. I didn't stop being angry and frustrated when the NRA came out and placed the blame for Sandy Hook on the media and video games. I didn't stop being angry and frustrated that gun advocates stopped any meaningful discussion about any meaningful remedy to slow the tide of mass murders. I was pleased that Connecticut took the lead among 13 states that moved to end the "gun show loophole." I live way too close to Sandy Hook not to have an impassioned opinion.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 134
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 11:22:00 AM

I stopped being angry (frustrated is probably a better word for me) when the Sandy Hook shooting happened.

It is easy... to "stop being angry or frustrated"... by something you hear of regularly... but don't live with... My reaction these days is "Well, that's America for you. What else do they expect"... It is rarely anger or frustration... annoyance would be more accurate...

But... I have the misfortune... of living in the fall-out... the illegal guns smuggled from America... the "exported crime"... AND... as an American... I still have family and friends who live in the US... I don't want my family or friends... to be the next victims... they don't want to be the next victims...

But there are so many... for whom their "fears" are more important than their "fellows"... who are completely unwilling to recognise... that mass shootings... in fact most crimes with guns... in the US are rarely... or not at all... not impeded by a bystander... or victim... with a gun... but they are ALWAYS facilitated by lax gun laws... These types... quite literally... want to hand the next mass shooter the gun... and then declare "It isn't our fault. Guns don't kill people"... and imagine they have just "made themselves safer"...

I grew up in that culture... I learned to handle guns before I was even vaguely interested in "handling" women... My sons did as well... And for some reason we... and many, many other Americans... are completely capable... of seeing the connection... between ready, easy availability and ready, easy killing...

The wingnuts can't see that... won't see that... and deliberately close their eyes and minds to it... Yet... in almost every other situation... such deliberate, willful ignorance... would be called "negligence"... by these very same people... who would want to "send them to jail" for it...

I for one... am not prepared to allow them... to make others suffer for their deliberate, willfully self-imposed ignorance... without at least standing up to it...
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 135
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 11:31:45 AM

Take anti smoking~ first they seem reasonable enough~ label packets, success
Then it was ban it in pubs/bars and so on success
Now it is ~ban smoking in streets~

So... you are saying... that YOU have a RIGHT to blow your carcinogens... into another persons face... or force them to have to breath your carcinogens... just so you can feel... comforted by your cigarette... that YOU have the RIGHT to knowingly and callously damage another's health... just so you can feel ... comforted by your cigarette...?

Honey... I'm a smoker... and even I can see the sense of public place bans... on cigarette smoking...

Are you sure this isn't about... "I can do whatever I want... no matter how it hurts another... because it is MY right... and their rights are lesser than mine"...?
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 136
view profile
History
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 11:52:11 AM

"One failed attempt at a shoe bomb, and we all have to take off our shoes at the airport.
31 school shootings since Columbine and no change in regulations of guns."

Yabbut shoes and bombs are about TERRORISTS! Guns are about AMERICANS! It should be clear that Americans have the right to kill other Americans however/whenever they want; obviously, non-Americans (as we know all terrorists are) must be prevented from doing so.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 137
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 11:57:02 AM

^^^no I'm not saying that~ I'm saying what start out as reasonable, with good reasons to lobby

Ends up as ~ taking away choice ~it will end with people not stopping smoking~but buying them in secret:)))

You mean like heroin... or cocaine... or crack... or meth...? You may be right about that... but then... except for limited medical applications... and the medical uses of most of these things are not banned... at least not everywhere... these things serve no other function... beyond choice... and "choice" isn't strictly a question of right... because we all know that rights have to be balanced... against the harm their exercise can cause others... like shouting "fire" in a crowded theater...

Let me ask you this... If you support a "right to choose" for smoking... Do you also agree.. that NH should not have to pay for treating their smoking-related illnesses...? Or do you believe that the "right to choose"... also includes... the "right to impose"... the consequences of that choice... on others... without their consent?

The same principles apply to guns and gun control... Does the unfettered "right to bear"... also include the... an unfettered "right to impose"... the consequences of that choice... on others... without their consent...?
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 138
view profile
History
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 12:05:02 PM

no I'm not saying that~ I'm saying what starts out as reasonable, with good reasons to lobby
Ends up as ~ taking away choice ~it will end with people not stopping smoking~but buying them in secret:)))

Actually, the more stringently access to cigarettes is controlled, through laws and through cost, the more smoking rates go down. Yes, there will always be those who'll smoke no matter what, but overall reducing access to cigarettes reduces cigarette smoking. No idea why people think the same thing wouldn't happen with guns and gun violence (and it did in Australia), but there you go.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/30/smoke-free-laws-are-saving-lives/
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/why-smoking-rates-are-at-new-lows/?_r=0
http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 139
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 12:17:39 PM

We had a massacre once ~ he was licensed:(

So let's see... Britain has almost always had... regulated gun ownership... over recent memory... and you have had one mass killing... that easily comes to mind... a licenced owner...

Canada... which added significant restriction... to already regulated guns... after a mass shooting... has had no such shootings since...

The US... which has almost never had... any significant regulation... will probably have had a dozen or more... in that same time frame... pretty much all using legally purchased firearms...

What does that tell you...? That gun regulation will END mass shootings... or that gun control will SIGNIFICANTLY CURTAIL mass shootings...

Or are you saying... the mass shootings of people who aren't you... are a "small price to pay"...?

Well don't they contribute like 9million to NHS

Do you mean to say... that each smoker who gets sick... has paid 9 million in NH premiums...?
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 140
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 12:31:34 PM

As long as there is a balance of rights~ and it stops at gun controls

Who has said anything else...? No-one here that I am aware of... unless I just missed their post... has wanted any outright bans...

Perhaps you can point it out... which you need to do... because telling me that someone else... someplace else... at a different time... said the same thing but did something different... isn't an answer... we aren't that person... this isn't that place... and it isn't that time...
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 141
view profile
History
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 12:38:16 PM

Take drugs illegal to take it or sell it. Being illegal has not prevented either

Everybody knows that making something 'illegal' doesn't prevent it. That doesn't mean we should just give up on all laws, from jaywalking to murder. As an argument against gun control, this one is not very good.


It can only be an exercise in terrorising law abiding responsible owners

How does gun control 'terrorise' law abiding citizens?


That would no longer be able to defend themselves against crime:)))

The problem being that the likelihood of successfully defending oneself against crime because one has a gun isn't really that high. As a matter of fact, a bunch of people owning and carrying guns make everyone less safe, overall, not more safe. Imagine a theatre shooting: it's dark, the perpetrator starts his rampage - he doesn't have to aim, just point and shoot. A few well-meaning law-abiding citizens whip out their guns and start shooting back -- but they have to aim for a moving target, in the dark, amid all the confusion of the attack - panic among theatre goers, noise and confusion. How accurate are they going to be? If Person A sees a muzzle flash and shoots back at it .. is he aiming at the 'bad guy' or at one of the other 'good guys'? Even one 'law abiding' citizen trying to be John Wayne in that scenario could end up shooting the wrong person, or several wrong persons.

Law-abiding people with guns regularly shoot themselves, their family or innocent bystanders.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/defensive-gun-ownership-myth-114262
http://www.livescience.com/51446-guns-do-not-deter-crime.html
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/opinion/frum-guns-safer/
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 142
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 12:45:12 PM

And such

The only solution to what you implied~ is an outright ban on guns

No it isn't... not even close... and it clearly shows... that you either haven't read what I said... and are simply "spouting"... or you did... and the only answer you can come up with... is the usual overblown...and irrational gun-nutter nonsense of... "You want to ban guns"...

And unless you can show me where I said... "I want to ban guns"... such claims will always be... disingenuous... deceitful... and intellectually dishonest... Is your position SO weak... that you have to resort to such dishonesty... to even make a point...?
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 143
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 1:02:29 PM
Before this thread was even begun this poster right here ^^^ was insisting that nobody wanted to infringe on anyone's rights and challenged me to point out exactly which rights would be attacked...I said the 2nd Amendment...and here were in a ridiculous anti-gun thread being told yet again how people don't kill people, guns kill people.


thats my point with anti smoking campaigners

They never say outright what there agenda is

They just push it in that direction~ to be completely honest about it
Would be rejected

Your opening post States American society as pressure

And such

The only solution to what you implied~ is an outright ban on guns

As well as a few other things you "hinted"~ :))))


That is precisely what it is about. Control over other people's rights and it is accomplished by degrees through intellectually dishonest arguments and a slow methodical grinding away of other people's freedoms for the un-quantifiable benefit of a nameless, faceless, theoretical group of people known only as "society".

The violent crime rate in the US has been dropping steadily for decades, but it has no effect whatsoever on the anti-gun lobby's tireless efforts to take away other people's rights and tell them what they may and may not do with their own property.
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 144
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 1:15:28 PM

That is precisely what it is about. Control over other people's rights and it is accomplished by degrees through intellectually dishonest arguments and a slow methodical grinding away of other people's freedoms for the un-quantifiable benefit of a nameless, faceless, theoretical group of people known only as "society".


So why do you not live in a country is just that utopia you describe?

I hear Somalia is a fantastic place if you desire freedoms.





The violent crime rate in the US has been dropping steadily for decades, but it has no effect whatsoever on the anti-gun lobby's tireless efforts to take away other people's rights and tell them what they may and may not do with their own property.


When you understand that while the violent crime rate is on the decline, gun related crimes are on the rise, you will then understand why people may be some what concerned.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 145
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 1:15:41 PM

That is precisely what it is about. Control over other people's rights and it is accomplished by degrees through intellectually dishonest arguments and a slow methodical grinding away of other people's freedoms for the un-quantifiable benefit of a nameless, faceless, theoretical group of people known only as "society".

The violent crime rate in the US has been dropping steadily for decades, but it has no effect whatsoever on the anti-gun lobby's tireless efforts to take away other people's rights and tell them what they may and may not do with their own property.


And this... coming from "The One"... who has never been able to back up... any of his points... They get shot down... and he "clams up" and tries to change the subject... every time...

Spouts a lot of pseudo-intellectual claptrap... refuses to back it up when it is refuted... well... not so much "refuses" as "is incapable of"... and can only sputter out useless "red herring" and "strawman" non-arguments...

Will we never see more than one truly intellectual... and intelligent... right-winger here...? Is RPL all we are "allocated"... and we just have to be content... with wingnuts, prevaricators and snake-oil salesmen...?
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 146
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 1:39:48 PM
You're amusing joe. ;) Sling stones if it makes you feel better.

Interesting isn't it, that I'm not "selling" anything. If anyone chose to search my posts, they would find that I haven't advocated anything other than respecting the rights of other individuals. OMG how heinous of me! lol I wish only to exercise my formerly recognized right to be left alone. That concept isn't even a recognized right in the US anymore. One control freak or another is constantly whining and crying to mommy and daddy government to force someone else to stop or start doing something on their behalf. Deny it all you wish, but the endless push against the rights of the individual has been going on for a very long time and on multiple fronts.

There are a whole lot of people that are just sick and tired of the whole concept of 24/7/365 in-your-face; control freak driven; cultural Marxism telling them what they can and cannot do in every aspect of their lives.
 HFX_RGB2
Joined: 4/14/2015
Msg: 147
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 1:49:15 PM

Interesting isn't it, that I'm not "selling" anything. If anyone chose to search my posts, they would find that I haven't advocated anything other than respecting the rights of other individuals.


You also haven't back up any of your claims.




OMG how heinous of me! lol I wish only to exercise my formerly recognized right to be left alone.


Well for someone who wants to just be left alone you sure do seem to do a lot of talking.





There are a whole lot of people that are just sick and tired of the whole concept of 24/7/365 in-your-face; control freak driven; cultural Marxism telling them what they can and cannot do in every aspect of their lives.


Then once again, why are you not living in the utopia you describe?
 sacredrain
Joined: 4/12/2015
Msg: 148
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 1:54:20 PM

Well for someone who wants to just be left alone you sure do seem to do a lot of talking.


Now you're getting it! I'm exercising my 1st Amendment right to free speech so that I may talk about leaving other people's rights alone. Frustrating ain't it? ;)
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 149
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 2:04:03 PM

Now you're getting it! I'm exercising my 1st Amendment right to free speech so that I may talk about leaving other people's rights alone. Frustrating ain't it? ;)


Are you saying that in exercising your 1st amendment rights you can say anything to anyone at anytime without any restraint?
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 150
American Exceptionalism=Mass Murder Study Says...
Posted: 8/31/2015 2:12:36 PM

You're amusing joe. ;) Sling stones if it makes you feel better.

Ahhh... I see... so when I point out the reality... of you NOT backing up your points... and trying to "change the subject"... when a refutation is made... while simultaneously claiming that "no one" will have an "intelligent discussion" with you... That is "slinging stones"... not pointing out that you won't follow... even your own conditions... about wanting an "intellectual discussion"... Perhaps if you would ACTUALLY debate honestly... you wouldn't encounter that quite so much...

Well... at least we now know... what you mean by "intelligent discussion"... That would be the kind... where you get to claim whatever you want... without intelligent support... and anyone who refutes it... is "slinging stones"...

Got it... You don't want "intelligent discussion"... you just think people shouldn't be allowed... to point out the vacuousness of your claims... even when you yourself illustrate it...

That's actually what I expected... from your first post... and I'm not the least bit surprised... you couldn't "hold back" any longer than you did...
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