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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 151
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in JailPage 7 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
I've seen the Bible verse, but couldn't tell you where it is offhand. I imagine a quick search would bring up the Chapter and Verse.

I know that in Calvin's Geneva they were pretty sure that the limit meant that only Calvinists were getting in.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 152
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/14/2015 5:54:00 PM

Why do people continue to compare this lady's actions to those of the private sector? She does not own a business. She does not have the right to refuse service. She does not have a choice in this matter other than to quit her job, do her job, or go to jail. There are no blurred lines here

Private or public, I personally feel that things should be a certain way - You can choose to pursue certain practices or lifestyles because of your religion, but if you are running a private business, I feel that you should run that business in a secular fashion for all of the public equally. Taking pictures at a same-sex wedding for example...your business is taking pictures at weddings, and your religious views should be irrelevant. One of the things that religious people are notoriously unable to understand is the difference between their choices that they make for themselves versus all of the sneaky chicken-shit ways of trying to affect other people's choices. One of the reasons why religion is so bad, intrinsically, is that once you allow for any unusual accommodation or exemption based simply on someone's religion, then there is no objective boundary and this becomes potentially applicable to anything and everything that someone might choose to claim special treatment for.

See the list from Jo Van. Should show just how difficult it would all get. (I do think that it's a mistake though to include things like atheism and agnosticism in a list of religions.)

at least according to the Christian Bible, only 144,000 get in

That's just how many seats are available on the spaceship. The interstellar Ark which is to come...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR2oct3zeTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUYSFo1ndI
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 153
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/14/2015 6:15:59 PM
I have only heard a FEW Jehovah's witnesses talk about the 144000.
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Are they allowed to get married in Kentucky?

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That's just how many seats are available on the spaceship.
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Including or not including the pilot and flight crew?
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 154
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/14/2015 7:03:48 PM
Is Jesus the pilot?
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 155
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/14/2015 7:27:24 PM
Should Jewish owned businesses have to open on Fridays? Should a 7th day adventist store have to sell Halloween decorations? I am just wondering how your rules would apply. Can you not have any religious aspects to a business? If so, under what circumstances? Thanks.


The 144,000:
Revelation 7.
Nah, doesn't say that.

Re: Message 165-
And every time I have asked for cases saying that public employees forfeit their religious rights. I would like to read them.Thanks.

Someone said " I feel that you should run that business in a secular fashion for all of the public equally."
My response is to that.

Ad hominem means that you concede. I'll take that, Thanks.

The parking lot near my office where a lot of state and federal employees park was pretty empty today.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 156
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/14/2015 7:30:04 PM
You've made the comparison to private businesses before in this thread. Every time you've done it someone has pointed out that Mrs. Davis is a public servant, not a business owner.

If you're having memory problems you could at least look through the thread before posting the same question in a different form.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 157
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/14/2015 8:24:13 PM
Message 165 ...
If you're having memory problems you could at least look through the thread before posting the same question in a different form.
Honey ... it just doesn't work that way with her. She waits a couple of days and posts the same shyte and same questions ... so sad.
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 158
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/14/2015 9:44:20 PM
Should Jewish owned businesses have to open on Fridays?
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Uh, a business can be open or closed any day or night for any hours it chooses. That doesn't require a religious exemption. The raelians could close on friday if they wanted to. You seem to not get it that the county clerk is the government and in this case she is imposing her religion on private citizens. That is a violation of the first amendment. What is so difficult about that to grasp?
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Should a 7th day adventist store have to sell Halloween decorations?
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Should any store have to sell halloween decorations? If so, you might want to contact auto zone, because I think they do not sell halloween decorations.

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I am just wondering how your rules would apply. Can you not have any religious aspects to a business?
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Personally, I think only if the business is a sole proprietorship or a simple partnership. Once a business takes advantage of the benefits the public grants to businesses through incorporation, limited liability partnerships, etc., the business should have to serve the needs of the public, which is the reason the public allows the owners to be shielded from personal liability when incorporating. Why should business owners get the benefits of incorporating without being obligated to the public who granted those statutory benefits? Businesses shouldn't just get to reap the benefits while doing nothing in return. That's just another example of corporate welfare. If a person or a group of people wish to form a business and leave their own personal assets on the line by not incorporating, then sure. Let them do what they want, unless they accept contracts from the government. In that case, they should still have to abide by the rules under which they receive that money.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 159
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/15/2015 3:05:32 AM

And every time I have asked for cases saying that public employees forfeit their religious rights. I would like to read them.


We've been posting about accommodations granted under the federal RFRA for sometime now. You know....all those reasonable and least restrictive (to the employer) accommodations that are granted to people in both the private sector and to government employees. But, you keep on asking for cases that show government employees forfeit their religious rights. Well, there are no cases...Government employee's don't forfeit their religious rights....unless...the accommodation is too restrictive to the particular government (yanno, all the separate state governments)....like, granting devote Jews every Friday at sunset off. Or, when a government office is open on Saturday, granting Saturdays off...they don't get a religious accommodation like that...Unless,maneuvering staffing and hours would allow such an accommodation and not infringe on someone else's rights.


The parking lot near my office where a lot of state and federal employees park was pretty empty today.


Is this a bigoted slur implying that all state and federal employee's are Jews? In any case, if you're speaking about government employee Jews taking off the Jewish New Year holiday....well, I'm absolutely positive if they took the day off that it wasn't given as a holiday and all those employee's had to burn a vacation day to get the day off. And I'm equally sure that if staffing or job requirements meant their presence was required then their supervisor could deny the time off.


Ad hominem means


You keep referring to ad hominem and your made up "Jerome's Law" where there's been no personal attack or citing of the CRA...so, my question is: "if misapplied, does uttering "ad hominem" or Jerome's Law" mean you've conceded the argument?"


Should Jewish owned businesses have to open on Fridays? Should a 7th day adventist store have to sell Halloween decorations? I am just wondering how your rules would apply.


And I wonder??? Is all that playing dumb an act???


Can you not have any religious aspects to a business? If so, under what circumstances?


Nope, not an act.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 160
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/15/2015 4:26:24 AM
I like you Irish. That is the best that I can do. Sorry.

I would like to read the case that says that you lose religious rights when you get a government job or post.

Is allowing a U.S, Attorney to leave early on Fridays to attend services and schedule and not assigned certain cases to that attorney or having other people step in for her on Friday evenings accordingly an acceptable religious accommodation? Is having all but two employees in a county clerk office issue marriage licenses to homosexuals and two don't due to their religious beliefs acceptable? Is moving a muslum employee of a driver's license bureau who does not agree with women driving to a section of the office that does not issue licenses an acceptable accommodation? Is not requiring a muslum deputy clerk to issue homosexual marriage licenses but giving him additional other duties a valid accommodation?

The Supreme Court will have to address the pharmacist /morning after pill issue because now there is an intercircuit conflict . Should a pharmacist be able to refuse to distribute the morning after pill based on religious beliefs? What about if he works at an army base or VA hospital?

Is there a hierachy of rights? Are rights actually in the constitution superior to "penumbra" rights or are "interpreted as included in the constitution rights" superior to those actually written in the constitution?

I have no problem giving EVERYONE a religious accommodation. Schedule and assign around shabat and friday evenings. Don't schedule Sheila to work Sundays so that she can go to First baptist on Sundays. If you have a conviction, religious or otherwise, against homosexual marriage, 95% of what the office does is not related to marriage. I can give you other duties and take some away from those who do give out the marriage licenses. Even atheists. If you hate Christianity so much, I will even move your office so that you don't even have to look at the office Christmas tree. And I will send a memo around that instructs people not to give you a Christmas card or say Merry Christmas to you.

Actually, I posted the information about accommodation. I am wondering when some of you would ever find it reasonable or is it just hate Christian time.

Davis is not giving out licenses but homosexuals can get licenses. Everybody happy?
Again, 95% of her duties have nothing to do with marriage licenses.

Also,try not to interpret every thing that mentions a group as a slur. Always interesting how people make assumptions about people on the internet and attempt to deride them based on those completely wrong assumptions.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 161
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/15/2015 6:33:00 AM

Posted By: deetristate I would like to read the case that says that you lose religious rights when you get a government job or post.

actually there are passages in the bible in which one can lose their religious rights when it comes to Man's Law ... especially if you are a religious woman


1 Timothy 2:12
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"....


since the Judge that sentenced Kim Davis to Jail is a Christian and a Man, Kim Davis as a Christian Woman or any Christian woman under his authority is committing a sin if they try to usurp his authority when it comes to the Law and the teachings of the bible ...therefore Kim Davis is required to be submissive, remain silent and follow the ruling of the Judge and issue marriage licences to everyone or quit the job
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 162
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/15/2015 8:43:08 AM

I have only heard a FEW Jehovah's witnesses talk about the 144000. No other group that I know of believes that.

It's what they're all taught, so presumably they all believe it whether or not they talk about it.

Very few other religions attach importance to that number, but the Skoptzists, Unification Church and Islam all do, as well as a few New Age churches. (From Wikipedia - the font of all knowledge, more or less accurate).
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 163
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/15/2015 1:07:16 PM

I like you Irish.


I think you're dumb as a box of rocks.


I would like to read the case that says that you lose religious rights when you get a government job or post.


As I said in post #168, and again here, government employee's don't lose their religious rights, through reasonable accommodation's as accorded by title VII of the CRA (oh no....more accusations of "Jerome's Law") and RFRA....same as private business.


Everybody happy?


Ms. Davis is a bigot, as are you Dee. She has her 15 minutes of fame...what will you do for your's?


Always interesting how people make assumptions about people on the internet and attempt to deride them based on those completely wrong assumptions.


Nope...we've got you pegged to a tee.
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 164
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/15/2015 5:54:41 PM
Is there a hierachy of rights?
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Yes. Citizens have rights. The government cannot interfere with those rights. The government cannot impose a religion on the citizens. Get it through your thick head that the county clerk is the government. She cannot impose her religion on the citizens seeking marriage licenses. Allowing her to impose her religion on others is not a fvcking religious accommodation. It's the government establishing religion. If you cannot understand that, you are dumber than a post.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 165
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/15/2015 7:39:57 PM
I just have to repeat this, to increase the chances that it's "heard" and penetrates the dense skulls.

Citizens have rights. The government cannot interfere with those rights. The government cannot impose a religion on the citizens. Get it through your thick head that the county clerk is the government. She cannot impose her religion on the citizens seeking marriage licenses. Allowing her to impose her religion on others is not a fvcking religious accommodation. It's the government establishing religion. If you cannot understand that, you are dumber than a post.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 166
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 2:53:07 AM
HF, uh, no Maleman. Please clarify for the dumb rock. Thanks.

If others in her office are giving out marriage licenses to homosexuals, how is she imposing her religion on anyone now?

Is the jewish US Attorney who must leave early on Fridays imposing her religion on the others who have to handle those matters that come in on Fridays because she is not there or the judge who must hear the case or the agent who will have a substitute attorney?

Is the muslum who is assigned to other tasks so that he doesn't have to give out driver's licenses to women imposing his religion on those who take up the slack by giving out licenses to women or the woman he does not have to serve?

Is the VA Hospital nurse who is not assigned to work on Sunday mornings because she wants to go to morning baptist services imposing her religion on those who do have to work on Sundays or the patients that she does not serve on Sundays. ( she works on Friday nights instead, by the way).
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 167
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 3:31:35 AM

If others in her office are giving out marriage licenses to homosexuals, how is she imposing her religion on anyone now?


Glad you said now. But, before Ms Davis was thrown into jail she was denying others of their constitutionally protected right to marry by instructing her deputy clerks not to issue marriage licenses.


Is the jewish US Attorney who must leave early on Fridays imposing her religion on the others who have to handle those matters that come in on Fridays because she is not there or the judge who must hear the case or the agent who will have a substitute attorney?


Do you actually know of such a situation? Probably not! The reason you don't actually know of such a situation is that courts are only in business Monday through Friday...or 40 hours...and there is no reasonable accommodation for alternate staffing.


Is the muslum who is assigned to other tasks so that he doesn't have to give out driver's licenses to women imposing his religion on those who take up the slack by giving out licenses to women or the woman he does not have to serve?


Another imagined situation! Please give specifics...if you can. Though, this would be a reasonable situation...if there were enough qualified personnel to juggle around as an accommodation without having to hire a substitute, train another employee, or pay overtime to the substitute employee.


Is the VA Hospital nurse who is not assigned to work on Sunday mornings because she wants to go to morning baptist services imposing her religion on those who do have to work on Sundays or the patients that she does not serve on Sundays. ( she works on Friday nights instead, by the way).


Yet another imagined situation...and even less likely then the others, but perhaps plausible if there were a devote Jewish nurse to balance the accommodation.

In all these imagined situations if the employer has to, for instance, accommodate the religious belief with a substitute employee who would then be eligible for overtime to grant the accommodation, then the employer doesn't have to grant the accommodation. Because the employer cannot be economically harmed to give the accommodation.

Yep, "Box-O-Rocks.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 168
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 4:04:11 AM

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of l964 ("Title VII") prohibits employers, except religious organizations 3 4 5,
from discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and
conditions of employment. Title VII also requires employers to reasonably accommodate the religious
practices of an employee or prospective employee, unless to do so would create an undue hardship upon
the employer.
This means that:
? Employers may not treat employees more or less favorably because of their religion.
? Employees cannot be required to participate “or to refrain from participating “in a religious activity
as a condition of employment.
? Employers must reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless
doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer.
? Employers must take steps to prevent religious harassment of their employees.
? Employers may not retaliate against employees for asserting rights under Title VII.



What is an “undue hardship”?
An employer is not required to provide an accommodation that causes it an "undue hardship." The U.S.
Supreme Court has ruled that this means that an employer need not incur more than minimal costs in order
to accommodate an employee's religious practices 7. The EEOC has interpreted this to mean that an
employer can show that a requested accommodation causes it an undue hardship if accommodating an
employee's religious practices requires anything more than ordinary administrative costs, diminishes
efficiency in other jobs, infringes on other employees' job rights or benefits, impairs workplace safety,
causes coworkers to carry the accommodated employee's share of potentially hazardous or burdensome
work, or if the proposed accommodation conflicts with another law or regulation.
For example, an employer probably does not have to train a part-time employee at substantial cost in order
to cover for another employee who is unable to work on Saturdays. Also, if a collective bargaining
agreement is in force which sets forth rules regarding seniority and assignments, it may be an undue
hardship to ask the employer to violate that agreement. An employer is also not required to pay premium or overtime costs in order to accommodate the religious needs of employees.
Some employers do
voluntarily pay these costs; however, this is up to the employer.

http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/civil-rights/religiousfreedom/religfreeres/ReligAccommodWPlace-docx.pdf


I assume the bigotry found in someone who hates Christ so much and those who are referred to as Christians can't even type the word Christ and puts a X there instead is okay with you.


You assume too much
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 169
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 9:00:00 AM
Message 177 / 178 ...

I assume the bigotry found in someone who hates Christ so much and those who are referred to as Christians can't even type the word Christ and puts a X there instead is okay with you.

You assume too much


big·ot·ry ˈbiɡətrē/noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries ... intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.
I would say that if a person really were such a "bigot" (as the definition suggests), then such a person would find it impossible to work with or interact in any way with people of that faith ... eh?

I suggest that anyone who has no tolerance for the way someone else writes a word ... might be a bit overly involved in their religious beliefs ... perhaps a fanatic or even extremist?

Hmm ... that would be on the same level as Ms. Davis ... forcing her religious beliefs and views / ideas on others as she does.

Yep ... fanatic and extreme to say the least! Perhaps a bigot? A person who harbors intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself ... yep, bigot it is.

Looks like we just ID'd another religious fanatic that has no tolerance for any other person's practices or beliefs. Got it.

 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 170
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 11:46:05 AM
If others in her office are giving out marriage licenses to homosexuals, how is she imposing her religion on anyone now?
--------
Ok, you are dumber than a post. Your homework is to go read enough about the us constitution so that you can answer your own questions. Since you are incapable of grasping the central principle here, your questions cannot possibly be designed to further your understanding of anything. You know as well as everyone with a positive IQ that you only asked those questions to further digress along some tangent rather than try to grasp the very simple concept at hand.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 171
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 12:14:28 PM

Hmm ... that would be on the same level as Ms. Davis ... forcing her religious beliefs and views / ideas on others as she does.

It's all about what she wants, and what she "feels comfortable with", never mind what others want for themselves.

I don't care what people choose to do themselves.
If they want to wear silly hats or clothes, and have special "food requirements" for themselves, that's fine.

They don't automatically get my "respect" for that though.
-Any more than I "respect" the students I see around my town, who get drunk and wear traffic-cones on their heads.
(I don't know if the US has these, for road-works? -They're big orange cones, which can be worn as hats..... when drunk. hth)

We already have cases in the UK where some restaurants, (some in schools!) have now 'standardised' on using only "halal" meats.
These are acceptable to both "jews" and "muslims", and satisfy their 'throwback' requirements regarding "sacrifices to god", on which they are based.
The animals have to have their throats cut, and 'bleed-out', without being stunned first.
-So there's no choice for the non-religious people.

Religious people want everyone else to conform to their "rules" too.

-Eg Like this story about the "born-again" Ms Hearst, who has campaigned to get "Cosmopolitan" Magazine covered-up and treated as "porn", in supermarkets.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cosmopolitan-covered-up-in-u-s-stores-after-advocates-label-it-porn-1.3229403

What's next..?
"Fashion Police" scrutinising people for exposing too much flesh..?
Or the return of "blasphemy laws", for daring to criticize their bronze-age beliefs?
ALL the shops closed again, on Sundays (/Saturdays/Fridays, Delete as applicable)

Pandering to such irrational beliefs is a slippery slope, and it leads to homosexuals being hanged, and rape victims , blamed, for "indecency". Again

Seems to me that religious people (like her) are just very selfish.
Isn't that the exact opposite of what they "preach"..?
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 172
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 1:03:44 PM
Thank you all for conceding- indirectly and with name calling and not addressing what I actually posted (one by actually reposting references that I noted earlier) but conceding nonetheless. Thank you.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qeWduNomDqY
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 173
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 1:31:28 PM

Thank you all for conceding- indirectly and with name calling and not addressing what I actually posted (one by actually reposting references that I noted earlier) but conceding nonetheless.


You really are a Box-O-Rocks...I addressed every question you posed and gave the title VII reason for my replies in post #176 and #178...not that you have the mental capacity to understand. Keep on asking the same question and not understanding the answer...we can answer it every which way but loose.
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 174
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 5:24:48 PM
Thank you all for conceding-
----------
No need to thank me. I conceded you were clueless many posts ago and that took little to no mental effort on my part, so, really, it was nothing.
---------------

--------------
not addressing what I actually posted
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Although no question is too stupid to ask, some questions are too stupid to answer.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 175
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 5:29:59 PM
Message 183 ...
You really are a Box-O-Rocks.
Well put.

I addressed every question you posed and gave the title VII reason for my replies in post #176 and #178...not that you have the mental capacity to understand.
She's a troll.

She purposely poses really dumb questions and acts dumb on top of it. (Of course, she might really be that dumb but if she is, one has to wonder how she can function in life.)

Keep on asking the same question and not understanding the answer...we can answer it every which way but loose.
And she will act just as dumb ... again.
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