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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 176
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in JailPage 8 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/gop-debate-kim-davis_55f9f292e4b0fde8b0cceae2

GOP Candidates Say Jailing Of Kim Davis Is Worse Than Ahmed Mohamed's Arrest

So now sending someone to jail for breaking the law is worse than sending a kid to jail for not breaking the law.

Isn't it time to hit the reset button on the Republican party? Like maybe when you take Windows back to a point before it was broken. Eisenhower was pretty popular. Of course he proudly proclaimed that he was a liberal.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 177
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History
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/16/2015 10:11:11 PM
And I'll offer another angle towards this -

Is the jewish US Attorney who must leave early on Fridays imposing her religion on the others who have to handle those matters that come in on Fridays because she is not there or the judge who must hear the case or the agent who will have a substitute attorney?

Is the muslum who is assigned to other tasks so that he doesn't have to give out driver's licenses to women imposing his religion on those who take up the slack by giving out licenses to women or the woman he does not have to serve?

Is the VA Hospital nurse who is not assigned to work on Sunday mornings because she wants to go to morning baptist services imposing her religion on those who do have to work on Sundays or the patients that she does not serve on Sundays. ( she works on Friday nights instead, by the way).

I guess that, yes, they are imposing their religions in these ways. And this should again show us what's really wrong here in a more fundamental way, and it should show again what one of the major problems with religion is.

Our first instinct may be that this is going too far...that you couldn't fault these people for imposing in this way. However, it's interesting that we have to admit that they really are imposing their religion upon others. So where and how do we draw the line?

But it's about something else entirely. This ^ conundrum is solved by realizing that it's not about the one thing, but something else entirely. What's really wrong with all of this is the idea itself of providing any accommodation for religion for religion's reasons. Accommodation is established and provided for ambiguous reasons...for reasons based only on it being of that religion, and validated and dictated by religion only.

This parallels the nonsensicalness of religion-justified ethics and morality. When we justify a particular element of morality with a religion and nothing else, we run into the problem of conflicting moral views based also on religion only. We have no bearing. It is utterly useless. How do we know or decide which moral angle is correct? When we justify each only by it's parent religion, we can't.

Likewise, making religious accommodations at all becomes a kind of "slippery slope". We try to apply some sense to it, in order to make the right kind of accommodations and to know how far to go with it...but really we can't. An inability to do so is intrinsic here. Where would it stop? Where does it end? How could we objectively decide?

So, the real problem here is doing so in the first place...in any way at all for anyone. We are still plagued by a multitude of very imperfectly solved, and eternally unsolved, dilemmas from the very moment that we lend these kinds of exemptions and respect for religion in the first place. That demonstrates how we are still poisoned and infected by all of this in every area of life. Religion is given a station which it very much has no business at all occupying.


Ms. Davis is a bigot
You say that like it is a bad thing.

I assume the bigotry found in someone who hates Christ so much and those who are referred to as Christians can't even type the word Christ and puts a X there instead is okay with you. Think about it without prejudice for a bit if you can. Can you not see the amount of hate, disregard and disrespect for someone of an opposing view by x'ing out the descriptive term? Are you condoning certain types of bigotry or simply too close minded to realize the saloon doors swing both ways?

This is yet another game which pops up over and over, and just keeps getting revived whenever someone wants to play games...

...The magic words here are "false parity". Trying to characterize things as if they were equal in certain ways, when they aren't. Being intolerant of people who're intolerant...is not the same kind of intolerance that is at issue. Being against someone who is a bigot, does not make one a bigot also...except that they are against bigots.

That logic would say that when one kid in the school yard constantly goes up to another kid and punches him over and over, and then when the second kid punches back...that both kids are the same, and are doing the same thing. Sorry, that's not true, and that's a very bad way of understanding things.

But, let's even go that route, and see where it gets us -

big·ot·ry ˈbiɡətrē/noun
noun: bigotry; plural noun: bigotries ... intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

Ok, so, let's concede that intolerance of intolerance is technically also intolerance. That being bigoted towards bigots is technically also being a bigot. Etc.

How do we solve this enigma? With objectivity. By throwing away shallow lazy approaches. Remember my example above about the two kids in the school yard? How useful is it to simply say that both kids are guilty of some physical violence, and should be treated equally? It isn't useful at all. Not one bit. This whole thing shows once again one of the problems of religion. Science-people, science, secularism, the non-religious...whatever you want to call it/us...is/are all about trying to use more objective and useful means by which to deal with things. You can say that each "side" is engaging in their own "opinion-chauvinism", discrimination, bigotry, intolerance, etc...but that alone just doesn't get us anywhere. It can't ever tell us what is really right, or what is the right way to go. That's why we who don't play games don't stop there - we know that what's really important is why you're intolerant of something, are bigoted against something, or discriminate against something. What are you bigoted against or intolerant of? What are you reasons?

So in closing...this ^ also demonstrates one of the many ways by which religion and the religious-mindset-impulse infects and affects us in so many little practical and consequential ways that aren't obvious and may seem to have nothing to do with religion - just how you have a conversation about something and understand it are affected: If we were talking about something else not religion-related at all, this dynamic would still pop up and sabotage the process.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 178
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 4:25:18 AM
Very interesting analysis, Drink. Thoughtful and valid.
To continue the conversation, does the high concept apply only to religion or to other strongly held beliefs as well? We have seen instances of complete intolerance by Atheists, for example, to the point where they do not want a cross on a religious organization property because they have to look at it for 30 seconds a day driving to work. Is that bigotry or intolerance?
 congupnaroad
Joined: 7/22/2015
Msg: 179
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History
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 4:26:02 AM
How come the Mayor of SF was never jailed back in 2004 for illegally issuing marriage licences to homosexuals?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 180
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 4:39:56 AM

How come the Mayor of SF was never jailed back in 2004 for illegally issuing marriage licences to homosexuals?


Because there was no criminal complaint. If you're referring to why Ms. Davis, the Kentucky clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to gays, was jailed, she was jailed for contempt of court, not for not issuing licenses.

Homosexuality was long derided as a mental disorder — and being transgender often still is — but a new study suggests that it might be more likely that it’s actually homophobia that is a sign of mental disorder.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/09/11/3700857/homophobia-mental-disorder/



To continue the conversation, does the high concept apply only to religion or to other strongly held beliefs as well?.... Is that bigotry or intolerance?


Is the intolerance of inequality bigotry? If it is then call me a bigot.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 181
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 8:49:17 AM
Message 175 & 187 ...

Is the VA Hospital nurse who is not assigned to work on Sunday mornings because she wants to go to morning baptist services imposing her religion on those who do have to work on Sundays or the patients that she does not serve on Sundays. ( she works on Friday nights instead, by the way).
I guess that, yes, they are imposing their religions in these ways.
That probably really isn't the entire story. She's just trolling again.

I used to work at a nursing home on the 3PM - 11PM shift. Back then, I needed specific nights off so I could teach cued ballroom dancing with my dance partner and one of my fellow nurses needed specific nights off so she could go to bible study. We sat down and worked out a schedule between us that would accommodate our needs as well as meet the needs of the nursing home rules ... that at least one full-time staff nurse had to be on duty in that unit every night.

I suspect the (probably made up) so-called "VA Hospital nurse who is not assigned to work on Sunday mornings" made a deal with other co-workers who could care less about having to work on Sunday AM's. (By the way, most weekend and evening shifts get a little bit higher pay ... shift differential ... so a lot of nurses don't mind working weekends or holidays when "religious" folks feel they need to run to church.) I used to volunteer to work all religious holidays so that "religious" co-workers could have the day off. It was great pay - usually double time and a half.

If going to church and praying or worshiping some sky wizard is that important to those people, then so be it. I'll laugh all the way to the bank!

I went to nursing school with people who said that if they worked at Planned Parenthood they could never bring themselves to participate in anything that had to do with an abortion. They said they would not even be comfortable passing out the information booklets. So then why take a job that might subject you to do something that you might eventually consider sacrilegious?

How the hell much brain power does it take to look a little past the end of your nose and anticipate a possible problem? That's like taking a job at a bar where they allow people to smoke and then **** and gripe about being exposed to the smoke! How dumb are some people?
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 182
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 9:03:00 AM
To continue the conversation, does the high concept apply only to religion or to other strongly held beliefs as well?
----------------
Yes, I belong to the Church of No Silicone and I need an accommodation, too. I am not allowed to work with women who have bolt ons and we must verify this personally, because the Supreme Lecher tolerates no excuses. So, (and this seems reasonable), what I need specifically is the government to order all of the women I work with to allow me to visually inspect and manually inspect the real estate under their brassieres. The latter is a check, since looks can be deceiving and I do not want to be condemned to penisland when I die for the sin of sloth when a few simple squeezes will let me reap the rewards in double d heaven.

----------
We have seen instances of complete intolerance by Atheists, for example, to the point where they do not want a cross on a religious organization property because they have to look at it for 30 seconds a day driving to work. Is that bigotry or intolerance?
----------
If you think that's bad, you should see the shit I get every time I try to protect my religious integrity by lifting a woman's shirt and squeezing the melons, (or peaches as may be the case.) This has got to stop!
 kj521
Joined: 9/13/2015
Msg: 183
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 11:22:57 AM
Pssst! Pssst! Hey! Over here!


Do y'all mind if I hang out with you for a bit?


I'm hiding! So don't tell anyone you've seen me!
I promise to be really...really....really quiet...like a church mouse even!

Goodness where are my manners?

Mr. Irish and Mr. Halftime...you both are looking rather handsome today!
And do I detect an extra sparkle in those eyes today, Mr. Irish? ;)

Ms. Cotter...what can I say? You're legs are still the envy of women everywhere!

Okay...gonna zip my lips right now! Promise.


What? I have to say something about the topic?

Well...God Bless America! I have no idea what y'all are talking about.
Fine. Give me a minute...I have to scroll up and figure out what y'all are fussin about. Brb.......(that means...be right back)



Okay....can't get that 10 minutes of my life back but I think I got the gist of it.

It sounds like some lady is all upset cause she has to do something at her work that she didn't have to do before cause of a rule change. And she doesn't want to do it cause it goes against her beliefs.

Am I right?

If so...then here is my opinion. It's really simple! She needs to either do the job or go find another one. Why do people makes things so complicated? I swear! I mean...I feel her pain and all cause I going through the same thing!

My boss just recently got a dog....a Gooden Retreiver, in fact, and brings it to the office.
Now most people think this breed is all sweet and gentle. It's a lie!
They are big, hairy, devious beasts.
How else can you explain it sneaking into my office and waiting...just waiting...till I take off my shoes.
And without any warning....YUK....this big, wet tongue starts licking my toes!
Sends shivers up my spine! And...NO...you sickos! NOT in a good way!

And you know what? I read all through my hiring papers....nothing in there about a dog!
Not one word! I even had my reading glasses on!
But don't worry...I am looking for another job and I am gonna make sure there is a No Dog Toe Licking clause in the hiring papers next time!

See? Same thing. :)


Oh Crap!!!! I have to go! I think they found me! Don't forget...mums the word! ;)


Ps....Ms. Dee? When they call you dumb? It means they like you. I know first hand! :D
 adventurejoe70
Joined: 3/1/2013
Msg: 184
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History
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 12:08:16 PM
^^^
You talking to me? I see no one else here, so you must be talking to me, and as you know I have a thing for vanilla blondes .:)

And if you must go know I hate seeing you leave but I love watching you go!;)
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 185
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 12:46:57 PM
Actually , kj, it means that they LOVE me AND they concede. Thanks.

If this is 1 of 99 things that her office does and she is doing the other 98 AND they can get their licenses, sounds like win -win. Why are people still so unhappy and angry?

By the way, she was elected.
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 186
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 12:51:59 PM
By the way, she was
----------
And if she lived in a state where people have figured out the earth is more than 5000 years old, she would most likely be impeached. Fortunately for her, she lives in the land that time forgot. They don't seem to mind being the high minded butt of self ridicule, which is rather sad, but they seem to thrive on it. Look what happened to Rand Paul. He went from a family in which his dad, despite a few off the wall ideas, had enough principle and logical consistency in his position to be credible and when Rand moved to Kentucky, his years of upbringing gave way as his brain devolved into crowd with a torch mentality until all that is left are a few remnants of libertarian ideology sprinkled with out of left field slogans that make even his own party wonder WTF?
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 187
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 1:39:13 PM

Atheists, for example, to the point where they do not want a cross on a religious organization property because they have to look at it for 30 seconds a day driving to work.


I'd be really interested to know when/where this ever actually happened. Folk "memory" doesn't count. The only cases I am aware of are when those crosses were on government property. And, yes, ditto for Christ-mass trees, and creche scenes. And it wasn't atheists, it was the ACLU. Links, as usual, would be nice.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 188
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 2:26:26 PM

Posted By: deetristate
If this is 1 of 99 things that her office does and she is doing the other 98 AND they can get their licenses, sounds like win -win. Why are people still so unhappy and angry?

it's because Kim Davis is claiming that the marriage licenses for those they have received them are "invalid" not only for the same sex couples but also for the heterosexual couples which mean by keeping her job or not doing her job she is with forethought leading people, in which some of them are Christians into temptation to live in sin, to commit the sin of fornification even to have babies out of wedlock and she does this with malice

this is why Kim Davis is no longer following God, she is now playing God and that is what happens every time one tries to impose their religion upon another
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 189
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 2:37:32 PM
It would be like a firefighter getting dressed in gear, sliding down the pole, getting in the truck, driving to the fire but refusing to do anything to put the fire out in a 100 room hotel because someone in the building "may" be gay...and then expecting to get paid for it. She's a public service employee, expected to fulfill the job requirements she was hired for. Her alternative is to find a job that doesn't conflict with her beliefs, much in the same way that immigrants who move to another country should follow the existing rules of the new country or find one that is better suited to them.
 _mungojoe_
Joined: 10/1/2014
Msg: 190
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 2:39:06 PM

And without any warning....YUK....this big, wet tongue starts licking my toes!

Are you sure it is a dog... for real, I mean...

You should check it for a zipper... or just yell "Billy Barty sucks!"... and see if it reacts...
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 191
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 3:34:25 PM

Very interesting analysis, Drink. Thoughtful and valid.
To continue the conversation, does the high concept apply only to religion or to other strongly held beliefs as well? We have seen instances of complete intolerance by Atheists, for example, to the point where they do not want a cross on a religious organization property because they have to look at it for 30 seconds a day driving to work. Is that bigotry or intolerance?

This sounds like you didn't really read what I wrote. I already answered your questions.

Intolerance or bigotry of atheists not wanting a cross somewhere? Read again what I wrote.

And do you yourself know what you mean by religion versus other strongly held beliefs?
 kj521
Joined: 9/13/2015
Msg: 192
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 4:09:19 PM
Joe Darling?

"You should check it for a zipper... or just yell "Billy Barty sucks!"... and see if it reacts..."


You're so funny! This one is for sure a dog! No need to check for zippers!

AND...... I just found out I am now required to pet sit the hairy vicious beast for TWO WHOLE WEEKS while my boss is on vacay!
Now is that fair? I think not! I'm startin to think this Davis lady is on to something!


Anyone got the number to her attorneys? I think I got a case...bigger than this one! :)






Psst! Joe....about that night....um....well....I'm still speechless! ;)
 Eric_Summit
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 193
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 5:02:14 PM
Be still my beating heart...I am overwhelmed!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 194
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History
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 7:44:10 PM
Message 195 ...
By the way, she was elected.
Really? Ya think?

Yes ... she was elected. If I'm not mistaken, that was already established on the first page of this thread. Please tell us ... is that just now sinking in? At least, as early as Message 17 it was established that she was in an "elected" position.

So essentially ... we've been saying that for the whole thread. She was NOT HIRED and CANNOT BE FIRED.

OMG ... ROTFLMFAO
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 195
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/17/2015 9:58:40 PM
Drink - I did read what you wrote but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

There are some people here who are so full of anger and venom that they are worthy only of being ignored most of the time.

You have not been one of them.

"And do you yourself know what you mean by religion versus other strongly held beliefs?," i.e., . . . . .....

So. let's see. The discussion is simply various forms of the statement "RELIGION IS BAD"rather than about how to balance court and constitutionally recognized religious rights (whether anyone thinks religion is nonsense or not) with court recognized homosexual rights and the proper means for enforcing those rights? I see. . . . .

__________________
Whether you choose to accept the examples given for purposes of this discussion is totally up to each of you and immaterial. I know of no religious tenets that proscribe being around unnaturally enhanced by man-made material breasts or putting out fires that threaten homosexuals but for purposes of the discussion, fine, whatever.
__________________

---- Firemen are true heroes and heroic, performing a select essential function.

County Clerks have many varied duties having to do with real estate, liens, taxes, various other licenses, recordkeeping of legal filings, voter registration,corporations, etc, etc.. I read that her office gives out less than 200 marriage licenses per year.

People who wanted homosexuals to get their licenses in Davis' facility are still not happy and are still angry even though homosexuals can, have and do get licenses in Davis' facility. Davis doesn't have to give them out. Everybody smile.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 196
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 3:46:59 AM

The discussion is simply various forms of the statement "RELIGION IS BAD"rather than about how to balance court and constitutionally recognized religious rights


The discussion is not about how religion is bad, it's about how constitutionally protected religious rights cannot be used to infringe on the constitutionally protected rights of others.


how to balance court and constitutionally recognized religious rights (whether anyone thinks religion is nonsense or not) with court recognized homosexual rights


Are those constitutionally protected religious rights the ones mentioned in the Establishment and the Free Exercise clauses of the 1st amendment and the Incorporation Clause of the 14th amendment? You know...the ones that say government cannot favor one religion over another...the ones that say "freedom of religion, and from religion?"

Interesting that you say constitutional religious rights and court "homosexual" rights. That's just wrong. A First and foremost the Supreme Court ruling is an interpretation of the constitution and thus is a constitutional ruling. Second let me show you why. From the Supreme Court ruling:


Held: The Fourteenth Amendment requires a State to license a marriage
between two people of the same sex and to recognize a marriage
between two people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully
licensed and performed out-of-State....

(b) The Fourteenth Amendment requires a State to license a marriage
between two people of the same sex. Pp. 10–27.
(1) The fundamental liberties protected by the Fourteenth
Amendment’s Due Process Clause extend to certain personal choices
central to individual dignity and autonomy, including intimate choices
defining personal identity and beliefs. See, e.g., Eisenstadt v.
Baird, 405 U. S. 438, 453; Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U. S. 479,
484–486. Courts must exercise reasoned judgment in identifying interests
of the person so fundamental that the State must accord them
its respect. History and tradition guide and discipline the inquiry
but do not set its outer boundaries. When new insight reveals discord
between the Constitution’s central protections and a received legal
stricture, a claim to liberty must be addressed.
Applying these tenets, the Court has long held the right to marry is
protected by the Constitution.


So you see, marriage, both opposite and same sex, is a constitutionally protected right guaranteed by the 14th amendment of the US Constitution.


People who wanted homosexuals to get their licenses in Davis' facility are still not happy and are still angry even though homosexuals can, have and do get licenses in Davis' facility. Davis doesn't have to give them out. Everybody smile.


This is another area where you miss the point all together...no one is angry about anything, but we are confused how YOU are still attempting to confuse religious accommodations with "the real world"...your imaginary scenarios are off the charts-they don't exist anywhere but in your own imagination.



this big, wet tongue starts licking my toes!
Are you sure it is a dog


Ahahahahahahahaha...that's the first thought that came to my mind too :)
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 197
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 4:01:21 AM
bigbadnirish ^

And to that I'll repost for the second time someone else's clarity on all that, in case it's still too hard to understand -

Citizens have rights. The government cannot interfere with those rights. The government cannot impose a religion on the citizens. Get it through your thick head that the county clerk is the government. She cannot impose her religion on the citizens seeking marriage licenses. Allowing her to impose her religion on others is not a fvcking religious accommodation. It's the government establishing religion. If you cannot understand that, you are dumber than a post.

Just because people can still get licenses because they have someone else do it and don't require Davis to do it herself...does not solve the problem. The very fact that they have to have someone else do it in the first place is a really big problem here. They shouldn't have to even do that. Making that kind of adjustment at all shows that there is a major misperception in that job position which simply shouldn't be allowed or tolerated by making the adjustment.
 kj521
Joined: 9/13/2015
Msg: 198
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 4:23:27 AM
"Ahahahahahahahaha...that's the first thought that came to my mind too :)"



Wow! Mr. Irish! And here I thought I could find sanctuary with y'all.

Sheesh! I even read the topic!

But it seems the Frick and Frack comedy teem is session.

Fine! I'll go. The broken hearts people will probably take me in. :)


********stomps away and....yes I did. I flipped my hair! Pffft!
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 199
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 5:09:08 AM
Again,HFx,no,sorry, Sun.
Nothing changes the fact that no one's rights are being violated if homosexuals receive licenses and Davis doesn't have to do it. But that is not enough for some people. I get that.
.
Name calling and avoiding the issue by typical tactics just means that you concede. Again, thank you.
The wall can find someone else to beat it. Have a great weekend.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 200
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History
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 5:41:13 AM

Nothing changes the fact that no one's rights are being violated if homosexuals receive licenses and Davis doesn't have to do it

No. Absolutely wrong. (just in my opinion on the ideas involved, but not as an expert in the law or on the constitution or bill of rights etc)

It doesn't matter that people are still receiving licenses. What matters is that an adjustment has to be made because an individual would refuse them. That shouldn't be allowed at all. To do so makes an approach to a "slippery slope" (oh I hate that term). It says that the individual is allowed to do so. And they shouldn't be allowed to. It says that maybe if all of the individuals refused, it is permitted and some other adjustment would or would not be made...allowing someone to refuse when they shouldn't.
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