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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 201
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in JailPage 9 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

What matters is that an adjustment has to be made because an individual would refuse them. That shouldn't be allowed at all.


I'm sorry Drink, but here you are wrong. The religious accommodation is a civil right established by Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (OH NO...I've invoked "Jerome's Law" again)


What matters is that an adjustment has to be made


Yes, and has to reasonable and least restrictive and cause no undue hardship on the employer (see my post #178)


Name calling and avoiding the issue


There's your over-imaginative imagination working overtime again, because no one has called you any names (yet) and everyone has been discussing your questions.


Nothing changes the fact that no one's rights are being violated if homosexuals


You really are a Box-O-rocks...Ms. Davis was violating everyone's rights who came into her office for a marriage license, because she would issue no marriage license-gay or straight. And marriage is a protected right established by the 14th amendment.

I see you've decided the term "gay" is too inoffensive and must use the more offensive term "homosexual"....ahahahahahaha...Box-O-Rocks!!!
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 202
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 12:56:06 PM
I'm sorry Drink, but here you are wrong. The religious accommodation is a civil right established by Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (OH NO...I've invoked "Jerome's Law" again)
-----------
Allowing a government official to discriminate against citizens who are legally entitled to the services that official is responsible for providing is not a religious accommodation. It's government sanctioned discrimination. Just because the official discriminates under the guise of religion doesn't mean she should be allowed to do so. She is a civil servant. She should be required to provide the services that her job requires to all people who are legally entitled to those services. If every civil servant was allowed to decide who and who not to discriminate against, no one could ever be sure of relying on the services their taxes pay for. What if you called the fire department and the guy driving the truck refused on religious grounds? (Like, my religion believes white people are the devil?)
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 203
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 1:34:09 PM

Allowing a government official to discriminate against citizens who are legally entitled to the services that official is responsible for providing is not a religious accommodation.


She's no longer discriminating against anyone. Her office is issuing marriage licenses.


If every civil servant was allowed to decide


The employee doesn't get to decide...they must ask the employer for a religious accommodation (the usual case which Ms. Davis ignored, and one of the reasons why she was sued in federal court) and the employer must decide if an accommodation can be made.


What if you called the fire department and the guy driving the truck refused on religious grounds?


He can't...those with jobs deemed to be essential services do not get religious accommodations....police, firefighters, military personnel in combat theaters...to name a few...
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 204
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 1:45:49 PM
She's no longer discriminating against anyone. Her office is issuing marriage licenses.
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She is discriminating against people personally. She is entitled to believe whatever she wants to believe, but she is not entitled to act on those beliefs if doing so means not carrying out her duties as an elected official. She is the county clerk and above all, her position should be that the buck stops here and that she set an example by doing what she was elected to do, carry out the mandate of her office.
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The employee doesn't get to decide...they must ask the employer for a religious accommodation (the usual case which Ms. Davis ignored, and why she was sued in federal court) and the employer must decide if an accommodation can be made.
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I am well aware of how this works, at least in private industry. My gf is an analyst who investigates discrimination and determines things like what reasonable accommodations are, for reasons that go beyond religion, like disability and gender. You missed my point. My point is that what is and is not a reasonable accommodation depends on the nature of the job. However, giving someone the ability to discriminate is not an accommodation.

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He can't...those with jobs deemed to be essential services do not get religious accommodations....police, firefighters, military personnel in combat theaters...to name a few...
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And neither should any other civil servant.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 205
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 4:56:28 PM

She's no longer discriminating against anyone. Her office is issuing marriage licenses.

My point...opinion...was that I don't think that it's good enough that her office is issuing licenses. She was refusing to do so herself. And the very act of making adjustments so that the office still issues them, though it allows the one individual to not do so, is a very bad way to go.
 congupnaroad
Joined: 7/22/2015
Msg: 206
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 4:58:16 PM

And neither should any other civil servant


What part of the term " reasonable accommodation" don't you like?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 207
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/18/2015 5:21:45 PM

She is entitled to believe whatever she wants to believe, but she is not entitled to act on those beliefs if doing so means not carrying out her duties as an elected official. She is the county clerk and above all, her position should be that the buck stops here and that she set an example by doing what she was elected to do, carry out the mandate of her office.


Well, the best the courts can do is enforce reasonable accommodation. The state legislature can impeach her during their next legislative session, 4 months from now, but that's not likely given the political landscape in Kentucky.


I am well aware of how this works, at least in private industry.


It's normally the same in government service...but, Ms. Davis ran the office and has no effective boss, other than the general public, who can vote her out of office during the next election. The issue is that the county clerk in Kentucky is an elected official and can only be impeached out of office or not voted in during the next election.


However, giving someone the ability to discriminate is not an accommodation.


I should have said: Her office is no longer discriminating against anyone. Ms. Davis was sued because she instructed her office not to issue marriage licenses...she instructed her office to violated the constitution. The federal judge ordered her office to issue licenses and they are. My guess is that the county clerk runs the office and does not perform the mundane things like handing out marriage licenses, and that would be the job of the lower deputy clerks-just a guess. On the whole I agree with you, but the constitution is the constitution and it's not for me to judge.

Well, it seems as though Ms. Davis just can't leave well enough alone and is playing chicken with the federal judge's order:


U.S. District Judge David Bunning released Davis from jail on the condition that she not interfere with her employees as they issue marriage licenses. When she returned to work, Davis altered the marriage forms by removing her name, making deputy clerk Brian Mason initial the form instead of sign it, and then requiring the form to be notarized.

"A notary has nothing to do with it," Mason's attorney, Richard Hughes, told The Associated Press on Friday after filing a status report with the judge. Hughes said it was "really bizarre" that Davis would alter the forms......State law requires marriage licenses to be issued under the authority of the county clerk.
http://news.yahoo.com/attorney-kentucky-clerk-interfered-judges-order-202819766.html
 MaleFeasance
Joined: 3/13/2015
Msg: 208
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/19/2015 4:53:51 AM
What part of the term " reasonable accommodation" don't you like?
-----------
I like the term just fine and I think a lot of employers should be a lot more reasonable in accommodating employees. I do not consider allowing a public official to discriminate against citizens to be a reasonable accommodation for any reason.
 kj521
Joined: 9/13/2015
Msg: 209
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/19/2015 5:11:11 AM
"I do not consider allowing a public official to discriminate against citizens to be a reasonable accommodation for any reason."


What about dogs? Can we discriminate against those?


What?!

Just asking.....Sheesh!



Y'all thought I left didn't ya!

See? Kj CAN be quiet!

Okay....back to church mouse mode. ;) ;)
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 210
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/22/2015 10:06:53 AM
It looks as though Davis still desires to be in contempt of court, God bless her. She asserts that the licenses currently being issued by her office are not valid in her professional opinion. However, there has been no legal challenge to the validity of those licenses, so the "Davis accommodation" is still working, albeit against her "Godly" wishes.

She's a real piece of work...
 mark/1948
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 211
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/22/2015 11:45:16 AM
in an interview today ms davis was very tearful. the one thing that pained her is people telling her that her g-d does not love her. her beliefs are very strong, but she can see no compromise. while i have empathy for her, she truly does not know how to love. that's not her fault (kind of) it's her church values, interpretation is everything. joke if you want but rodney king was on to something. "can't we all just get along". i'll tell my friends how i feel, and it sometimes makes for hard feelings. we understand one another, and agree to disagree, then compromise. i wish her well, but she has to compromise, which the judge gave her that option. she said she had gay friends, and they have no problem w/her stance. really, just like the baby the fiorina saw, or the beautiful baby who is now autistic., or that obama is a muslim (who eats pork, has gay friends, and drinks alcohol), some people hate reality. she should pray and have counsel on the golden rule. that being said, people only change in their best interests, they have to change. but sometimes the issue has to be forced upon them. the golden rule alway applies...........................................PEACE
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 212
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/22/2015 2:16:10 PM

...she said she had gay friends, and they have no problem w/her stance.


I find it strange, when somebody makes a racist or homophobic remark, they always claim to have friends of that race or group they insulted. Are they actual friends, where they invite each other over for dinner or hang out with, or just co-workers, or the owner of a shop they frequent? I doubt anybody would be a true friend of someone who opposes their lifestyle or feels the race of the other person is inferior.

If Ms. Davis' religious views are so strong when it comes to marriage, does that mean she's also totally against people getting divorced for any reason, and feels it's an insult to God if people think of getting divorced, since people made a vow in the house of God to live as a married couple 'til death do us part?
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 213
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/22/2015 4:14:23 PM

she said she had gay friends, and they have no problem w/her stance

[sarcasm]Well, I'm glad that the opinions of someone's friends are so relevant and hold so much weight...so that we can expect that these friends are speaking for everyone else and we can run the state and federal governments according to their stances, and we should therefore consider the matter settled and the dilemma solved because her friends feel this way. Not.[/sarcasm]
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 214
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/23/2015 12:56:51 PM
I have a feeling she'll be behind bars very soon ... altering official forms? Good job!

http://www.occupydemocrats.com/kim-davis-could-be-heading-back-to-jail-for-illegally-altering-gay-marriage-licenses/
 shirleywonton
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 215
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/23/2015 1:42:29 PM
Yes, she should be in jail. I have as much right to marry as any other person. I am still looking for the one, but gay people have been discriminated against forever. If I love a woman and she loves me, this clerk has no right to prevent me from getting married. I didn't choose to be a lesbian. I was born this way.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 216
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 9/29/2015 6:20:10 PM
Apparently Ms. Davis has decided she'd be better off as registering to be a republi-dipper ... may be related to the fact that she's an elected official and probably has a pretty good idea that no Democrats are going to ever vote for her again?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 217
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 7:33:37 AM
Someone asked this in another thread ...
... Do you think that jailing Kim Davis may have had something to do with the Republican winning the governor slot?
I'm thinking the poster was referring to the Kentucky Governor race which was not really an overwhelming win.

The Republican only won by 84,827. I think it was merely a result of not enough Democrats showing up to vote.

I believe I heard somewhere that Kim Davis used to be a registered Democrat and switched her party affiliation.

It's reported that the guy who won the governorship is a "dipper" and if the Kim Davis issue had any influence on that, then it would appear the "dippers" support people breaking the law? What's new?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 218
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 3:56:45 PM

Didn't Rosa Parks break the law? Seems some laws are there to be broken for the betterment of society.


That's an interesting take on things. Rosa Parks broke the law in a protest for civil rights. Kim Davis broke the law denying civil rights to others.


Did congress bring this law into being or was it illegally invoked through the judicial system?


I find that radical conservatives invoke the constitution only when it's to their convenience and call constitutional decisions by SCOTUS unconstitutional (or illegal) when inconvenient. The constitutional way to change SCOTUS decisions you don't like is to create amendments that change the SCOTUS decision. I wish you well with that one.
 aj7125
Joined: 11/28/2014
Msg: 219
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 4:29:03 PM
Only 2nd time in 44 years a republican governor elected. Also. Lt. Gov. Jenean Hampton, first black. That has to just grate on the liberals that a black republican woman was elected. And now I see cotter making the excuse that Bevin won by "only" 84,000 votes and the democrats didn't turn out. What point are you making? Will be interested to hear the answer :p
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 220
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 5:41:04 PM
Actually, I've heard that it may have to do with voting machines (again).

The polls before the vote showed a 15% lead for the Democrat. Exit polls showed the Democratic candidate winning. A huge number of ballots went the straight Democratic ticket - except for governor.

Seems pretty fishy.
 aj7125
Joined: 11/28/2014
Msg: 221
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 6:01:19 PM
"Actually, I've heard that it may have to do with voting machines (again)."

^^^^^ AHHHH, I like it, it's low voter turnout(why??) or a scam is going on. Wonder what other liberal will post as to the why? Have two ridiculous posts so far, may as well keep them coming.

Couldn't be that people are fed up with how the President is doing....Nah. Must be a fake republican voter that really is a democrat and a black LT Governor thjat really isn't black..........That's gotta be it
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 222
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 6:14:55 PM
No, no, no. You're confused. It's the Republicans who claim someone isn't black. Can't tell you how many times I've seen in this very forum people posting that the President isn't black - despite all appearances. Heck, I'm pretty sure I've even seen you post it. To be honest, I don't know whether those posts outnumber the ones that claim he was born in Kenya or not.

But voter fraud is how Bush won both of his terms. I can't imagine the Republicans throwing out a tried and true method of stealing elections. And a 15% swing on voting day is virtually unprecedented. At least absent any scandal.
 aj7125
Joined: 11/28/2014
Msg: 223
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 6:35:35 PM
"Can't tell you how many times I've seen in this very forum people posting that the President isn't black - despite all appearances. Heck, I'm pretty sure I've even seen you post it"

^^^^^^ Halftime, PLEASE show all of us the post that you refer to as far as me, PLEASE. You can't, you slander and you post something to look like you have a "gotcha" moment when all you have done is show who you exactly are. I will leave that to others to fill in that blank. You have nothing to post but you feel you need to post and then you slander.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 224
Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 6:45:08 PM
See if this rings a bell (I'm paraphrasing):

Obama isn't black - his mother is white. He's mixed race/halfrican.

You all kind of run together for me, so you may not have said that. But I've sure read it from enough die hard Republicans that I know it was a meme over there on the right for years. It was continually posted here. But I notice that you joined in 2014, so I apologize if you didn't post that. This was something that was harped on around the 2008 and 2012 elections. Constantly.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 225
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Should Davis, the Court Clerk, Be in Jail
Posted: 11/9/2015 7:12:41 PM
Message 234 ...
But voter fraud is how Bush won both of his terms.
Yep ... I should know. I was one of the folks who stood in line more than 4 hours in the freezing rain in order to vote and my particular precinct is overwhelmingly Democratic! It went to Bush. I live in Franklin County ...

The Washington Post reported "Franklin is the only Ohio county to use Danaher Control's ELECTronic 1242, an older-style touchscreen voting system." Franklin County's voting machine allocation report shows that Damschroder deployed his Danaher (formerly Shooptronics) voting machines, which have been in use since 1992, in a formula that favored Bush over Kerry.

In a 2006 report ...
Like many Americans, I spent the evening of the 2004 election watching the returns on television and wondering how the exit polls, which predicted an overwhelming victory for John Kerry, had gotten it so wrong. By midnight, the official tallies showed a decisive lead for George Bush -- and the next day, lacking enough legal evidence to contest the results, Kerry conceded. Republicans derided anyone who expressed doubts about Bush's victory as nut cases in ''tinfoil hats,'' while the national media, with few exceptions, did little to question the validity of the election.
Sounds like someone posting in this thread ... eh?

The Washington Post immediately dismissed allegations of fraud as ''conspiracy theories,'' and The New York Times declared that ''there is no evidence of vote theft or errors on a large scale.''
And the republicans claim the MSM is only on the side of Democrats? Uh huh.

But despite the media blackout, indications continued to emerge that something deeply troubling had taken place in 2004. Nearly half of the 6 million American voters living abroad never received their ballots -- or received them too late to vote -- after the Pentagon unaccountably shut down a state-of-the-art Web site used to file overseas registrations. A consulting firm called Sproul & Associates, which was hired by the Republican National Committee to register voters in six battleground states, was discovered shredding Democratic registrations. In New Mexico, which was decided by 5,988 votes, malfunctioning machines mysteriously failed to properly register a presidential vote on more than 20,000 ballots. Nationwide, according to the federal commission charged with implementing election reforms, as many as 1 million ballots were spoiled by faulty voting equipment -- roughly one for every 100 cast.

The reports were especially disturbing in Ohio, the critical battleground state that clinched Bush's victory in the electoral college. Officials there purged tens of thousands of eligible voters from the rolls ..... neglected to process registration cards generated by Democratic voter drives ..... shortchanged Democratic precincts when they allocated voting machines ...
I lived in one of those precincts.

... and illegally derailed a recount that could have given Kerry the presidency. A precinct in an evangelical church in Miami County recorded an impossibly high turnout of ninety-eight percent, while a polling place in inner-city Cleveland recorded an equally impossible turnout of only seven percent. In Warren County, GOP election officials even invented a nonexistent terrorist threat to bar the media from monitoring the official vote count.

Once you've lived through such a thing ... nothing seems far fetched.

By the way ... Michael Connell (a Republican IT specialist) was deposed one day before the election this year by attorneys ... who was set to testify in a case alleging election tampering in 2004 in Ohio mysteriously died in a plane crash.

So yeah ... I'd say it's fully possible that Kentucky may be looking into that particular election. Maybe they need to get the voting machines straightened out and vote again. The outcome hardly influences any national elections. It would just influence the state election ... and the people have a right to have a rightfully (legally) elected governor ... eh?

Message 236 ... I believe "aj is one of our re-incarnated posters ... just saying.
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