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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEISTPage 2 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
Laughatyoutoo:

Whenever you say this -

I am an atheist...

But then you say this -

...I look back at all of the random move in that had to occur for my being here to happen, including the physical laws of our universe and including my ancestors meeting just the right people so I was born. I also have trouble with the issue of consciusness. No matter complicated a brain we could build, I simply can't accept a machine would become self aware. So lots of issues nobody can really answer.

It makes me wonder if you really are an atheist. Or rather, how examined your personal atheism-identification is. How much thought have you put into it. How did you engage in that thought.

Now, the one single thing which I agree is the most compelling and intriguing, and that I've brought up before yet in a few years this one thing didn't seem to garner much opportunity for discussion in here...is consciousness. Specifically your own consciousness. My own consciousness. It's relatively easy to understand and explain things from the outside - an organic living being and it's brain operates and behaves in such a way, and ceases to operate when it's "dead". But from the inside...me, from within, experiencing my own awareness and sentience and consciousness from within...inside here looking out. That to me is quite compelling, mysterious, and intriguing like nothing else is.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 27
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 9/29/2015 1:16:06 AM
I was hoping that was just the usual trolling. Ancestors meeting just the right people? Please be a troll.

Consciousness is certainly interesting, but I don't see why you find it so mysterious when you've previously demonstrated an understanding of emergent phenomena. Can you be more specific? And why is the experience of consciousness more intriguing than anything else in the cosmos? I can understand why you say compelling, since we have little choice in the matter.
 alaricmaggot
Joined: 9/26/2015
Msg: 28
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 9/29/2015 1:32:44 PM
Well, if your mother did not meet your father, would you be here? How about your grandparents and their grandparents? The amazing number of events to calculate that resulted in your existence is probably a number too large to put here. Start with the creation of the Universe, this universe, and everything that happened just right since then, so that you are here.

And yes Consciousness is unexplainable. The Neuroscientists try to do so . . . but it is all speculation.
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 9/29/2015 5:34:38 PM

if your mother did not meet your father, would you be here? How about your grandparents and their grandparents?

We consider this part a bit dumb because it doesn't mean anything. If your mother met another father...same with grand and great grand parents etc...and another person was born instead of you, then it would just be that other person here instead of you (or maybe no one at all). And that other person might be the one saying the same thing. But it's not saying anything. In the game plinko, you take a chip and drop it somewhere at the top. On it's way down, it bounces this way and that way, etc, until it ends up at a specific spot at the bottom. But where the chip ended up at the bottom doesn't imply anything supernaturally fantastic nor reveal any profound facts about why it ended up where it did beyond all of the physics-related reasons why it bounced the way that it did each time that it bounced.

The amazing number of events to calculate that resulted in your existence is probably a number too large to put here. Start with the creation of the Universe, this universe, and everything that happened just right since then, so that you are here.

Yes, all of this stuff is amazing and interesting - that's why science studies it and is fascinated by it. And many of us are thankful that everything happened the way that it did in order for us to be here now. But again, from the assumed tone here (could be wrong about this), you are assigning some kind of meaning to it that just isn't there at all per any real logic. Or you are implying that it's somehow highly improbable that there could ever have been any kind of existence such that it required a supernatural intervention of some sort. And again per any real logic that just isn't the case at all.

I can understand why you say compelling, since we have little choice in the matter.

Real funny. Hehe.

I don't see why you find it so mysterious when you've previously demonstrated an understanding of emergent phenomena. Can you be more specific?

Yes...I'm just not completely sure what I think is the truth here. I like the idea of emergence. The dynamic/phenomena is very powerful, and explains things very well. But it and other things seem to explain things, however well, "just from the outside", from an observer pov...while to the me that is in here it's hard to comprehend that I'd just cease to be upon death, or who and where am I if an absolutely perfect clone of me were made. It seems like something doesn't add up. Saying that it's the same as before I was even born, or when I'm asleep, doesn't seem to account for it completely. Via emergence or anything else, we think that we so far explain how it comes about...but the fact that I am in here, to the me in here, it seems like it's something wholly different which requires a different explanation.

I'm not thinking of some kind of me here-before-and-here-afterwards that is the same as 'me' right now, but simply some kind of "awareness or consciousness". We explain things the way that we do, and it works...except that I still end up asking "but how can I be in here?"

Obviously I'm going in the direction of what some people mean by "soul" in that it exists before and after in some sense, and obviously what I'm talking about can easily be picked apart and explained. And this is made easier by the fact that I don't have the linguistic tools to explain what the heck I mean, or this is an area which isn't developed with it's proper concepts and terminology...but that may all be because it's not possible to explain it correctly/concisely because what I'm talking about is a bunch of bullsh!t in the first place.

But I CAN say one thing with as much honesty as is possible - I don't have these speculations from a fear of death, or from a desire to "continue", and I'm not subconsciously deluding myself because I wish things were one way versus another. All that may be happening is that I'm just not thinking about it correctly. Otherwise, that's what it's about - it just plain doesn't seem to make sense from an impartial objective standpoint. I only try to figure it all out in an impartial objective way only for the purpose of doing so, and for no other reason. The fact that I am in here doesn't feel to be accounted for by emergence or anything else in formal science. Can't put my finger on it, but it just seems like an apples-oranges situation.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 30
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 9/29/2015 7:26:48 PM
#29


And yes Consciousness is unexplainable.


It cannot be explained because it does not reside within our minds!
Our brains (and even those of most animals) have evolved to "tap into" the realm from where consciousness emanates; and thus we are able to be imbued with it. Whether or not plant life has this capability isn't known.
 pontogoldworth
Joined: 9/26/2015
Msg: 31
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 9/30/2015 9:11:35 AM
Very interesting idea Yule, something I too have thought about. But is this God we are talking about or some other unfathomable existence we will never understand?
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 9/30/2015 4:58:11 PM
Since my last post, I've been wanting to add a clarification, with less words -

I simply feel like I can't comprehend what this 'awareness' is that I am on the inside. Observing and studying someone from the outside...that they behave in a certain way and interact intelligently with their outside world, and how all of their biological machinery works and comes about through emergence, etc...works and certainly seems to account for and explain things. But it's still only 'from the outside', and doesn't help me 'get' what this awareness is that I am, or that I am in here, versus looking at someone else's exhibited properties from the outside.

I'm sure that the religious and spiritual are going to eat all this right up though.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 9/30/2015 7:52:51 PM

It cannot be explained because it does not reside within our minds!

Yawn. Another crazy thought. Wishful thinking. Like you'll see your puppy dog, grandma, and Abe Lincoln when you go up to heaven, right? ;)

We can do more than turn on and turn off consciousness as if it's not processed in our heads but elsewhere as you claim. We can invoke not just laughter but the degree of sense of humor in people -- like finding a Bic pen hilarious -- which is processed in the brain. We can alter the level of consciousness and the way it rolls... there's Zero indicator the brain's some anntenna to some greater consciousness. Apes are conscious too, so I guess they have that as well, huh?

Our sense of self (which in today's day and age is even MUCH more of a sensitive issue; see selfies) is the hard part to step outside of. Hence, a lot of people think their world revolves around them -- or at least flow, act, and feel like it but have to say "no" if/when asked that philisophical question (because it logically doesn't).

We don't like to think we're organic robots. But just because we're organic robots doesn't mean we're simple needless creatures or something. The real issue is -- which extends to more than just being theistic vs non-theistic -- when I die, is THAT IT? Is my mom/grandma/spouse GONE-GONE? Nothingness after they died, like my neighbor's cat from the 90s? Yep.

If we somehow realized that underneath it all nature was playing this trick and that wasn't actually true (phew!) -- the Personal concept of thesim vs non-theism would be less of an issue. What I mean by that is, that's the main motivator for people to want to believe. Much the same way they feel/act/flow like the world revolves around them (and extending to ones close to them). They don't want to die and be Nothing.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 34
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 9/30/2015 11:19:26 PM

Atheism is not a belief system. Unfortunately, some people who (mistakenly, dishonestly, or carelessly) identify themselves as atheist are not actually atheist and do have a belief-system mindset and approach about their atheism. Some think of them as speaking for what atheism is, but both parties are wrong. So nonetheless, atheism is not a belief system. I suspect that you'll (op) want to argue that point, and will possibly use the same dumb logic to show that atheism is a belief system...and if so, that just sucks. If not...if I'm wrong...then my bad, yo. But the reason that I'm making certain tentative assumptions is the fact that you called atheism a belief system.

Second problem: The narrator of this video begins by talking about the placebo effect and how powerful belief can be. Well, it is true that "having faith" and believing in something can have some power, and even positive power...but
"having faith" isn't usually what skepticism of religion or god's existence is addressing, and the power of belief does not prove or validate theism nor an alleged conversion from atheism. Any positive placebo effect of religion does not and cannot justify religion. The kind of positive attitude that a person needs religion to provide can be had without religion, but getting it from religion brings in other things which are bad. So when you can have it without religion, then there's no need or excuse for bringing in those other bad things. The fact that people don't believe that they can have this positive or "have faith" attitude on their own without needing religion to provide it...is part of the damage that religion does.

Third problem: We (or just I) might be jumping the gun concerning op's intentions. This video is just demonstrating that people can be deceived and manipulated; That psychology, not anything divine, can explain religious experiences. Op may not be trying to tout theism. But we already know that magic tricks are magic tricks. That's what's going on here. If anything, it just shows that the alleged atheist has a weakness and may not really be an atheist.

Fourth problem: At a certain point in the vid, the idea of a supernatural presence was suggested to a group of people, and those people behaved more honestly than another group. This was used to make the claim that people who think that there may be some kind of supernatural presence tend to act with more morality. The problem with this idea is it's blanketing nature, and that it ignores the particulars as well as other factors which may be at play in a very particular controlled experiment. It is said that if there is a picture of eyes or a face present, that people won't thieve as much as they might otherwise. This may be a valid psychological phenomena, but it does almost nothing to lend any meaning to an alleged atheist's conversion to theism...and, it doesn't lend any weight to the idea that the existence of religion or belief in the supernatural is justified because it's what makes people moral; Instead it is to point out that thing which is wrong with many people - that they need such things in order to be moral. The fact that it's needed in the first place is what's wrong, and is what a person should come away from such things understanding. Many people do not behave morally simply because they subconsciously believe that they "can't get away with it" if they did otherwise.

Fifth problem: It is claimed that the majority of an audience refusing to perform a mock satanic rite demonstrates that we are all born with an "inbuilt hardwired tendency to believe". This is very, very stupid indeed. The rite required for a person to stab a dagger into a picture of a loved one, or some such nonsense. However, a person would have many reasons for not wanting to do such a thing which have nothing at all to do with having some subconscious "belief" tendency. You're already thinking of something now which has nothing to do with belief or non-belief, aren't you?

(What's really going on in the vid is a seemingly-sensible presentation being used by a seemingly-authorative-person to trick people into believing certain things about their psychologies and why they do what they do. It is not showing how a particular person was tricked...but it is tricking you by watching it. It is not revealing certain psychological traits of a person in the vid...but is subliminally making you be a certain way which you may not have been before watching such things.)

Sixth problem: That 15 minute conversation when he "conditions" her is actually kind of sadistic and "quackish". (And that constant finger-tapping would get on my f-cking nerves, personally.) His interpretation of the "conversation" reflecting the event of her having a religious experience...is "reaching" just about as much as one can reach. I can't see any hint of such a thing in her. I even suspect the possibility that during some of this conversation she was just being polite and was humoring him. That's what we skeptical people end up doing often when someone starts jibber jabbering the way that he was. To be considerate, we patronize.

Seventh problem: The woman in the outdoor café was only trying to cooperate, and trusted what he told her he was going to do. Exactly what point does he think that he is making?

Eighth problem: Ironically, this would be the kind of presentation to convert a theist to atheism, upon elucidating how to manipulate a certain emotional response from someone. He practically proves the fakeness of a religious or supernatural experience. And were the cameras on her really hidden yet got the views that we got? Seems hokum to me. But despite all...how again does this instill a religious belief in someone or convert an atheist?

Ninth problem: I just wasted an hour of my time. There isn't anything new or fantastic here for me. And again, the title of this should be "how to turn a theist into an atheist", instead of the other way around.

G - Who was asking what question?


Definitions of Atheism from Wikipedia:

1.
"Atheism is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities"
Choosing neither to believe nor disbelieve.

Seems like atheist believe god does and does not exist at the same time. I agree, God transcends existence.
Otherwise atheism is claiming to not understand the concept of god. Only someone who has never learned the concept of God can neither belief nor disbelief.

2.
"In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities"
Choosing to believe God does not exist. A belief. Those who believe there is no god, or again disbelieve there is a god (same thing), hold a belief.

3.
"Atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist"
Same as 2. Choosing to have no beliefs that God exist.

OR (same as 1) you can take this as the activity of "believing", and negate it. Choosing to not have a "believing" of God. It is Ambiguous language and terminology. I don't go throughout my day with a "believing of something". Of course some religious people do, I don't, I simply have a believe. If I can't say this, then why can atheist?

What if a Theist had:
- a disbelief there is no god.
- the rejection in the disbelief in deities.
- the absence of disbelief that any deities exist
They would still be a theist, all logically possible.

If Atheism isn't a belief, what do you call someone who says "I believe there is no god" which is equivalent to "I disbelief there is a god"?

You can't neither disbelief or believe in something, you only if you have not learned the concept. Only when you have no knowledge of it. The true "atheists", as some put it in this thread, are the animals, and infants. Or the person has a limited conceptual understanding of God, or is retarded, etc.

Those who claim to be neutral or transcend the scale of disbelief and belief, either don't understand the concept of god, or what a belief is.

I don't go through my days, having a "believing in god", I just have a believe, but some religious people do. Atheist today claim they have "no believing in god", which is a disbelief, actually a belief that something isn't.

Atheism doesn't require a "belief system", but neither do I. I'm a non-religious theist.

Seems to be like ambiguous language and terminology, Atheism throughout history has always been the belief that there isn't a God, and scientist like Richard Dawkins are atheist, that claim that there is no god.

Actually the way the concept of God was created, once you have learned it, you can only believe or believe not. Simply because it is or isn't. Unless you are like me and believe god both is and isn't (beyond the concept of existence).

A atheist would say, "No, I don't believe that", when asked about god. This is a belief that something is not, once properly understood the concept of God. What is incorrect is to bring in a "believing", which I could correctly assume, atheism is "disbelieving" which translates to "does not believe" or "believing not", etc.

Why is atheism a belief? Because it was derived from the concept of God. If the there was no concept of God, there would be no atheist. An Atheist is someone who has a proper answer to the question "Do you believe God is, or isn't?".

Good day.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/1/2015 6:55:39 AM

I simply feel like I can't comprehend what this 'awareness' is that I am on the inside. Observing and studying someone from the outside...that they behave in a certain way and interact intelligently with their outside world, and how all of their biological machinery works and comes about through emergence, etc...works and certainly seems to account for and explain things. But it's still only 'from the outside', and doesn't help me 'get' what this awareness is that I am, or that I am in here, versus looking at someone else's exhibited properties from the outside.

Well if the conventional explanations don't do it for you there are some other ideas kicking around, such as this controversial one:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001188?np=y

But if you want to 'feel' the machinery of consciousness rather than simply going some way towards comprehending it, I think you'll be waiting for a while no matter what is the molecular basis for it.

For most of us simply becoming aware of the interplay between mind and body is enough to be going on with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q06YIWCR2Js
 pontogoldworth
Joined: 9/26/2015
Msg: 36
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/1/2015 7:35:38 AM
Everybody is grasping at explanations and nobody really has one. It is all supposition. This is the way I see it. Hypothetically, if man could build a human brain . . all of the trillions of synapses and wiring . . . that mechanical brain would still not have self-awareness imho. So Sentience is something beyond the body. The fact that I am here and sentient and beat that the astronomical odds of my not being here is another issue. That may be explained by an infinite amount of time, the impossible becomes reality. Still, time has only existed for 14 billion or so years in our universe . . . there is something more here than meets the eye. The bible is nonsense . . but something is going on.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 37
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/1/2015 8:27:34 AM
#32

But is this God we are talking about or some other unfathomable existence we will never understand?


We'll probably never understand it, because we not in a realm where we can ever know absolute truth.
This new theory of consciousness (link below) underplays the importance of it; only because it may serve as a catch basin in which other thinking processes can operate; thus consciousness itself cannot be assessed from within.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150623141911.htm


Hypothetically, if man could build a human brain . . all of the trillions of synapses and wiring . . . that mechanical brain would still not have self-awareness imho. So Sentience is something beyond the body.


IMO, a brain would have to be able to tap into the realm of consciousness in order for it to become 'self-aware'


there is something more here than meets the eye.


Shhh, don't mention this to an atheist; or they'll start playing with tea-pots!
Btw, the Bible has nothing to do with what consciousness is about.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 38
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/1/2015 11:11:44 AM

HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST

get them to watch the movie "The Exorcist"


HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST

making claims that something exist with "no proof as being proof" falls into the realm of delusion, to label others that fail to buy into this delusion "Atheist", is an attempt to draw them into the delusion, which is why those that make the claim that they are Atheist have unknowingly been drawn into the God delusion and are at that point in time "Theist"

the God delusion can be best explained by asking one simple question

Which came first ....Atheism, God or Neither?
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/1/2015 11:35:41 AM

Definitions of Atheism from Wikipedia:

Don't follow Wikipedia as the final call on anything. Anyone can change Wiki. It's to be used as a starting reference point, not the finality. Like many words, they can have multiple definitions that Differ from one another. But with a-theism, like a-bacterial -- there's a core concept you Can't change as its Primary Meaning. You can't overwrite it due to the English Language Construct. You can't say a-bacterial = anti-bacterial because people will say "abacterial" to mean that as well. It becomes an ALTERNATIVE definition in popularity, not THE definition.

If tons of people used "abacterial" to mean something looks Ugly (say aimed at kitchen & bathroom stuff) -- that can't take away from it's root Primary Meaning that's Always going to be there by default, no matter what. All you'd be doing is adding an Alternative definition.

Same with atheist. It = non-theist, not anti-theist. Devil worshipper, one alternative definition more used some time ago doesn't change the core meaning residing on 'not' and 'theist', any more than anti-theism does.

Atheist = Not a Theist. Atheism = Not holding a theistic belief. Here's the tricky part of words: It doesn't mean you're rejecting it in the sense of calling it False. You're rejecting it as being Adopted as True. Big Difference.

Actually the way the concept of God was created, once you have learned it, you can only believe or believe not.

Disagree (and there is no singular "it"; it's a thought-concept that varies a lot). Let's replace existence of God with -- Johnny robbing the 711 on Tuesday night. We'll take the political/religious bias out of this whole thing.

1. You can hold the belief that Johnny robbed the 711 on Tuesday night (theist)
2. You can hold the belief that Johnny did NOT rob the 711 on Tuesday night (anti-theist; a narrower version of non-theist)
3. You can hold the belief that there's not enough evidence that Johnny robbed the 711 on Tuesday night, thus you cannot hold the belief that he In Fact did (non-theist)


Why is atheism a belief? Because it was derived from the concept of God.

It's the lack of a belief, which may spawn different beliefs backing it up. It could be the belief that no god(s) exist [anti-theist]. It could be the belief that there's no enough evidence to confirm or deny the existence of any god(s) [still non-theist].
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 40
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/1/2015 3:30:34 PM

Anyone can change Wiki
I've tried to change Wikipedia, and... nothing happens. Wikipedia has restrictions, moderators, changes must be accepted, etc. before a change happens. School teachers only hate Wikipedia because they wish they had it in school.




Disagree (and there is no singular "it"; it's a thought-concept that varies a lot). Let's replace existence of God with -- Johnny robbing the 711 on Tuesday night. We'll take the political/religious bias out of this whole thing.

1. You can hold the belief that Johnny robbed the 711 on Tuesday night (theist)
2. You can hold the belief that Johnny did NOT rob the 711 on Tuesday night (anti-theist; a narrower version of non-theist)
3. You can hold the belief that there's not enough evidence that Johnny robbed the 711 on Tuesday night, thus you cannot hold the belief that he In Fact did (non-theist)


Sound like all beliefs to me. For number 3, if P then Q. P is a belief then Q is also a belief, since Q was derived from P.

Also I'm not using the A in Atheist as an argument, I'm going of its supposed definitions, which ofc changes over time.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
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Posted: 10/1/2015 3:37:39 PM

Sound like all beliefs to me.

They are, but they're Different, that's the point. And also -- what's the belief About. Non-theism (atheism) isn't a rejection of a belief meaning it's a belief that it's False. That's the misconception. It's At Least a rejection of holding the belief that it Is True. It's key to understand this, and easy to get tripped up on words/interpretation/assumptions, etc.

Non-theism is general. Theism is more specific. Non-theism could be a belief that the existence of god(s) isn't validated enough to be true. That doesn't mean it's a belief that god(s) do Not exist. An non-theist does not have to hold a belief that god(s) do Not exist. That's a specialized form of non-theism (anti-theism). Atheism, by language construct as a fact, merely means non-theism. In street-term/popular-lingo, it can mean anti-theism in context, but that just complicates things (but also furthers some religious folks' agendas to cast out those who are non-theistic).
 Aprilikeswhiteroses
Joined: 2/28/2015
Msg: 42
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/2/2015 8:56:44 PM

HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST


Get them to listen to funchesf for 1 hour.!
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 43
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/3/2015 6:34:19 AM

HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST

get them to discuss consciousness


Posted By: yule_liquor
It cannot be explained because it does not reside within our minds!
Our brains (and even those of most animals) have evolved to "tap into" the realm from where consciousness emanates; and thus we are able to be imbued with it. Whether or not plant life has this capability isn't known.

you're describing Buddhism pertaining to reincarnation, that everyone exist as Gods but their consciousness is here on Earth on vacation ...or perhaps as a punishment

you are but the sum of your memories ....funches 316

if you were to void a conscious person of all of their memories could they still be classified as being conscious or sentient?


Posted By: Aprilikeswhiteroses
Get them to listen to funchesf for 1 hour.!

How Rude

my only aim is to place you on the path to true heathenous ....oops..er..I meant true righteousness
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 44
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/3/2015 2:25:56 PM

Everybody is grasping at explanations and nobody really has one. It is all supposition. This is the way I see it. Hypothetically, if man could build a human brain . . all of the trillions of synapses and wiring . . . that mechanical brain would still not have self-awareness imho. So Sentience is something beyond the body. The fact that I am here and sentient and beat that the astronomical odds of my not being here is another issue. That may be explained by an infinite amount of time, the impossible becomes reality. Still, time has only existed for 14 billion or so years in our universe . . . there is something more here than meets the eye. The bible is nonsense . . but something is going on.


Something to think further on this, especially with regard to this subject area...

Even now, no one can tell that YOU are sentient. That's why there's still a functional debate about whether humans are the only sentient beings on this planet or not. The more sarcastic among us like to point out that we can't even prove WE'RE sentient.

The point is, that it's quite possible that some of the machines we have RIGHT NOW, have some sense of sentience and existence. We don't like to think they do, because we want to always be able to treat them like garbage as soon as we're done with them. Therefore, even when we DO manage to create an electronic brain which mimics a human brain, we still wont know if it's "alive" or not.

This points up something else to recognize. There is more to the theist/atheist concept than yes and no.
 dreamriding
Joined: 9/17/2015
Msg: 45
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/3/2015 4:53:43 PM

making claims that something exist with "no proof as being proof" falls into the realm of delusion, to label others that fail to buy into this delusion "Atheist", is an attempt to draw them into the delusion, which is why those that make the claim that they are Atheist have unknowingly been drawn into the God delusion and are at that point in time "Theist"

the God delusion can be best explained by asking one simple question

Which came first ....Atheism, God or Neither?


I agree, however it doesn't matter. Ronald Reagan said it best.

https://youtu.be/2iDmaB5BxzA

 denialism
Joined: 9/26/2015
Msg: 46
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/4/2015 4:32:37 AM
I believe torture, manipulation and magic tricks are at the root of some quite popular religions and social institutions. For example: Christianity and Wal-Mart. Torture certainly seems to be the most effective way to change a person's mind. Torture can make you confess to being a six-eyed parrot with narcissistic personality disorder if it goes on long enough and pushes the correct buttons.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 47
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/4/2015 7:05:36 AM

Posted By: dreamriding
I agree, however it doesn't matter. Ronald Reagan said it best.

https://youtu.be/2iDmaB5BxzA

since Ronald Reagan is a Christian, only Alien Invasion he could be referring to would be an invasion of Angels lead by Jesus Christ going "Liam Neeson" slicing and dicing up the heathens with the Sword of Righteousness

and that's the thing about the God delusion, if E.T. the Terrestrial came to Earth and said he was God the faithful would have to follow him believing if they didn't he might Phone Home on them

due to the God Delusion, Aliens could take over the Earth without firing a Shot, all one has to do is follow the bible and float down on a cloud looking like Jesus Christ or perhaps Fabio, of course with (Blonde Hair and Blue eyes) and it would start a Holy War and bring the Apocalypse and perhaps even turn an Atheist into a Theist
 PhotoBrent
Joined: 8/6/2007
Msg: 48
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/4/2015 1:14:18 PM
The fastest, and most likely to succeed method is quite simple: Give them a lobotomy.
 denialism
Joined: 9/26/2015
Msg: 49
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/5/2015 3:39:51 AM
In direct response to the op, has anyone ever watched Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas? Psychotropic drugs can have various effects on the mind, among which one might temporarily find constructs of a god or a devil. Sound waves can have hallucinatory effects as well. I heard a parapsychologist on CBC radio about ten years ago discussing his success with experiments based on sound exposure, and he also reported to have continually cured house hauntings by replacing household appliances. A fridge or a dishwasher can apparently cause perceived discomfort, unsettling dreams or even hallucinations if emitting the appropriate frequency of sound.

Why would anyone be so treacherous as to give someone a belief in god? That's like if I lived the first half of my life as Hugh Hefner, and now you want me to be George Costanza...
 flman2015
Joined: 10/3/2015
Msg: 50
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 10/6/2015 11:52:20 PM
Very simple. Put a space between the initial A and T, like this, ATHEIST becomes A THEIST.

Physically this is equivalent to removing the brain so there is space between the cranial cavity and the body.
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