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 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 126
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEISTPage 6 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

Cool video. I gave it's thumbnail a read when I was proofing the video I suggested that you should watch. By the name and picture, I concluded that it was most likley newage/spiritual movement junk that is always cropping up around stuff like this, and decided not to check it out.


They are not always just junk though. Sometimes they contain information that could enlighten you about something else.

For example watching a video of 'the earth is flat theory', a photon would observe the earth as flat because the speed at which it is traveling.

The 'junk' is there, you regard it as junk because it doesn't apply to your theory/philosophy whatever, but sometimes there are gold nuggets to find inside of the trash.

Before quantum mechanics, someone like you would of most likely dismissed that video as 'new age spiritual crap' or whatever you wanna call it. That's the problem.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 127
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/9/2016 9:03:19 PM
also I recommend not wasting your time, put all youtube videos in 2.0x speed (fast forward).

Just made an hour documentary 30 minutes.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 128
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/9/2016 11:30:46 PM

As to your original question, ask yourself this: are we the same person from one experienceable moment to the next.

Yes and NO. "NO" is in caps to emphasize the non-super-duper-technicality when referring to one Adjacent moment to the next. It brings the question as to what do you mean by "same"? How do we define that? Surely you're going to be more the "same" in an adjacent moment to the next (fraction of a second) at 30 years old than you are to your identical twin brother living in the same life, wearing the same sweaters, etc. at the same point.

In the end, no, we're not the same as we were when we were 5 vs 25. A totally different person. So what you define as "different" or "same" reveals the answer. But whether there's some "God" to give one comfort to following the right tradition ("You were right maw! Our tradition is true!") or not, has no bearing on that of course. The God-concept plays no role in it.

But if one's like many people, wanting/biased to believe in a "God" due to a Heaven/Paradise after death -- then it comes to said after-life as to whether you're different. Now, if there's a sudden shift-change where all of a sudden you need no sex (unless with 72 virgins who can't do squat; we've been there in college; 72 lasts just over 2 months if conservative, far longer than eternal 'life'), along with your likes/dislikes changing, not caring that your ex who died is with Abe Lincoln and her ex, etc etc -- it's not real life. You can't have the hilariously-Different POV of how one thinks/feels/is without it being "not you".

So in the end, IRL (vs POF - lol), you are the same person from one moment to the next which are fractions of a second, but not from way-back-to-now. Jumping into that is Not Experience, so YOU didn't grow into that.

At the end of the day, people who want their fairy tales to live by, out of pride of their upbringing and such, and/or fear of dying -- let them. Just like IRL, we're told like an infomercial on how things aren't the way they are, but to motivate/inspire to be better, etc. Which has a great reason behind it -- but it doesn't mean it's true. Nor is it meant to. It's meant to keep people doing the right thing, something to aspire for -- as many people can't do it on their own.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 129
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Posted: 1/10/2016 1:52:35 AM
^^^ Whoa, where did all this stuff come from? You're reading a BUNCH of stuff into what I said that just isn't there man. My remark was in response to drinks comments about identical copies and was designed to provoke thought regarding how much divergence two identical copies of a single human being would experience from one experienceable moment to the next, effectively immediately ending their status as "identical copies". So all of this stuff... I have no idea where its coming from.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 130
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/10/2016 8:58:17 AM

My remark was in response to drinks comments about identical copies and was designed to provoke thought regarding how much divergence two identical copies of a single human being would experience from one experienceable moment to the next

Yeah, I expanded that to heaven/paradise after-life (which pushes people to believe in a 'God'), and if that IS 'you'. But in a nutshell, Yes, you are the same person from one adjacent moment to the next, as any change from every fraction of a second is microscopic. But technically, you could say it's different, as everything technically changes. Is our solar system the same from one moment to the next? Depends what you call 'same' and 'different'.

On the topic of making a total insta-copy of oneself -- no, that's actually a simpler notion, as that can be applied to anything whose construct is the same but made up of entirely different space & matter. No, that's not 'you'. They are not the same. They don't take up the same space, they are not made up of the same matter. But of course, depends what you're defining 'same' or 'different' as.

If you and I bought the same exact make & model of a car, are they the same? Yes and No. Again, depends on the Context of what one means in 'same' and 'different'.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 131
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/10/2016 5:27:09 PM

So in the end, IRL (vs POF - lol), you are the same person from one moment to the next which are fractions of a second, but not from way-back-to-now. Jumping into that is Not Experience, so YOU didn't grow into that.

At the end of the day, people who want their fairy tales to live by, out of pride of their upbringing and such, and/or fear of dying -- let them. Just like IRL, we're told like an infomercial on how things aren't the way they are, but to motivate/inspire to be better, etc. Which has a great reason behind it -- but it doesn't mean it's true. Nor is it meant to. It's meant to keep people doing the right thing, something to aspire for -- as many people can't do it on their own.


Regarding the self or an object as a 4 dimensional thing, it NEVER changes.
When regarded as a 3 dimensional thing it is NEVER the same (the smallest unit of time later).



At the end of the day, people who want their fairy tales to live by, out of pride of their upbringing and such, and/or fear of dying -- let them


Don't be a fool, everyone has beliefs.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 132
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Posted: 1/11/2016 2:33:19 AM
Sorry cress...timing is bad sometimes. Just about now life makes it so I can't really spend much time in here. Quick stop and go contributions in other threads, but in here I'd rather do more if I do. I have half of what I'd say already in my head, but would rather take more than a second and be concise, etc.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 133
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Posted: 1/12/2016 1:06:18 AM
^^^ No worries man it happens. It's happened to me also. Let's leave it openended. I'm always reading this forum, so if you ever feel like continuing on just post whatever you wanted to say, and we'll pick it up from there.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 134
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/12/2016 10:06:11 AM

Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
Dam, funches, you didn't waste time doing a unhelpful ramble for amusement.

everyone has their reasons why they come to a forum, I come because I'm producing a sci-fi cable television and web series, when I not creating the props I'm writing the scripts or the concepts for them and therefore posting in forums help thrust myself into a frame of mind needed to accomplish this

for the Sci-fi series to take off I'm making sure it contain mostly concepts that can't be found on the internet or in the movies and I research to make sure they don't , which is how I can instantly tell which sci-fi movies or star trek episodes you guys are getting your posts from

but I've notice that you get your concepts from the bible, as the question you posed about two consciousness in one mind..this is clearly a concept from a Trinity believer...because someone of science would have equated it to the works of Sigmund Freud pertaining to THE "ID, THE EGO and THE SUPEREGO

I've only mention it because you have a tendency of persecuting religious people in the forum when you yourself are posing religious questions and seem to become somewhat agitated when someone challenge them as being something other than religious, I can't believe I'm telling you this ..but..... perhaps you need to find Jesus


But you can never say that someone didn't give you a chance or the benefit of the doubt.

so far all you guys have done in here is "google cut and paste" from Wikipedia, upload youtube links and have endless definition debates, imagine if that was all that Plato ,Socrates and Aristotle did, if pushing others to have original thought in a philosophy forum is some type of crime, then I wholeheartedly plea guilty as charge


Posted By: norwegianguy456
On the topic of making a total insta-copy of oneself -- no, that's actually a simpler notion, as that can be applied to anything whose construct is the same but made up of entirely different space & matter. No, that's not 'you'. They are not the same. They don't take up the same space, they are not made up of the same matter. But of course, depends what you're defining 'same' or 'different' as.

but he was referring to consciousness, whether a person once De-materialized and then Re-materialized using a Transporter would retain the original consciousness along with a copy consciousness occupying one mind and one body but yet both consciousness are aware and indepdendent


Posted By: kidreason29
Don't be a fool, everyone has beliefs.

but only a fool would treat their beliefs as truth

I believe I can fly ...but would you really go jump off a cliff ...and that is why it's impossible to believe without doubt

"to believe is to doubt"...funches 316
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 135
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/13/2016 1:54:43 AM

but only a fool would treat their beliefs as truth

I believe I can fly ...but would you really go jump off a cliff ...and that is why it's impossible to believe without doubt

"to believe is to doubt"...funches 316


Except that people do treat their beliefs as truths.

That is because some beliefs can't be reduced down to words. Some of them are ingrained in your perception, and your subconscious. Some beliefs you are not aware of are beliefs.

But do you really belief you can fly? I don't think so.

It is impossible to believe without doubt, because some beliefs are impossible to test or verify.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 136
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Posted: 1/13/2016 10:05:26 PM

Regarding the self or an object as a 4 dimensional thing, it NEVER changes.

If you're saying time being the 4th dimension, and that everything already Is when taking that into consideration, there still was a change -- it just isn't happening. There isn't a happening, just a timeline (4th dimension). Kind of like looking in a history book. But things still changed -- they just aren't changING because it's a snapshot together. Is that what you're getting at?

but he was referring to consciousness, whether a person once De-materialized and then Re-materialized using a Transporter would retain the original consciousness along with a copy consciousness occupying one mind and one body but yet both consciousness are aware and indepdendent

Consciousness is the same thing as the construct of our even more complex self in the sub-conscious. You knock around parts of the brain that handle the conscious, you lose a sense of consciousness -- temporarily or forever, but still alive. In the far future, a total insta-transporter making a COPY of someone would be Demonstratable proof of that, that would make those wanting to believe that the body's a shell and consciousness isn't done by the brain -- cry. :) Also, it'd be a weird device if you wanted to TRANSPORT. You would die. A copy of you would continue on. That would not be You, just because it's a copy of your now arm hair, sense of smell, consciousness, etc.
 kidreason29
Joined: 9/25/2015
Msg: 137
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/14/2016 12:36:02 AM

If you're saying time being the 4th dimension, and that everything already Is when taking that into consideration, there still was a change -- it just isn't happening. There isn't a happening, just a timeline (4th dimension). Kind of like looking in a history book. But things still changed -- they just aren't changING because it's a snapshot together. Is that what you're getting at?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensionalism

the change is dependent on the dimension from observer,
to an observer of four or five dimensions, a three dimensional object is static, etc
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 138
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/19/2016 9:08:41 AM

Posted By: kidreason29
Except that people do treat their beliefs as truths.

in Layman's terms it's called gambling ..in Religious terms it's called Faith ..in Psychiatric terms it's called Delusion


But do you really belief you can fly?

"to believe is to doubt" ... funches 3:16


Posted By: norwegianguy456
Also, it'd be a weird device if you wanted to TRANSPORT. You would die. A copy of you would continue on. That would not be You, just because it's a copy of your now arm hair, sense of smell, consciousness, etc.

I agree with that line of reasoning, because anything derived from the original would only be a copy even consciousness, that consciousness couldn't or wouldn't even conceive that it was a copy, that at the most it would consider itself to be "Refurbished" but yet still consider itself to be the original and that the only thing that would matter to the consciousness is it's existence to itself

as for the question of two consciousness of the same person existing in one brain after entering into a "Transporter" and one of the consciousness being a copy and the other the original...the questions now becomes which consciousness would insist that it was the original and not the copy and exactly how would it know


Posted By: kidreason29
the change is dependent on the dimension from observer,
to an observer of four or five dimensions, a three dimensional object is static, etc

I view"Time" as the way conscious beings used to measure reality, but for the sake of argument let's say that Time is the fourth dimension that broke the gap between time and space, would that not mean that once one entered into the fourth dimension they will observe that reality was just an illusion ...and that Time itself was an illusion
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 139
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Posted: 1/23/2016 8:50:40 PM
You guys need to pay better attention to the conversation.


Funchest

but he was referring to consciousness, whether a person once De-materialized and then Re-materialized using a Transporter would retain the original consciousness along with a copy consciousness occupying one mind and one body but yet both consciousness are aware and indepdendent.


That was not at all what Drink was talking about. Not even close. You seem to have a serious comprehension problem man, and prone to the use of far to much bullsh!t. Don't even know where the hell you got the idea of two consciousnesses in one mind from? Your way off man.

Hay Drink, what's the name of that psycological condition Ging posted about not to long ago, where the person believes themself to be smarter than they actually are. Or Ging, if your still there man. Anyway this guy has got that condition, like bad. And the bullsh!t its like waist deep with this guy.



norwegianguy456:

On the topic of making a total insta-copy of oneself -- no, that's actually a simpler notion, as that can be applied to anything whose construct is the same but made up of entirely different space & matter. No, that's not 'you'. They are not the same. They don't take up the same space, they are not made up of the same matter. But of course, depends what you're defining 'same' or 'different' as.


Your not doing much better on comprehension either, but at least you seem honestly intested in the topic. Look, go back to page 6 and start off by watching the videos that Drink posted right before I started responding to drinks thought experiment, especially the first three videos. Then reread mine and Drink's conversation, if indeed you've actually read it, cause it doesn't seem like you have. Then if you still can't put together what drink was saying, come back her with what you do get and we'll discuss it further.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 140
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Posted: 1/23/2016 9:27:12 PM

kidreason29
Don't be a fool, everyone has beliefs.


Why is it necessarily true that "everyone has beliefs". As someone who claims to hold no beliefs, what rational argument can you offer me to justify your claim that I do in fact have beliefs? Outside of scientific fact/knowledge (which does not require belief) I function on probability not belief.
 CressB
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Posted: 1/23/2016 11:00:39 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensionalism

the change is dependent on the dimension from observer,
to an observer of four or five dimensions, a three dimensional object is static, etc


You should read your link better, Minkowski spacetime (or the idea of time as the forth dimension) is wholly different to a purely mathematical concept of dimensions. With Minkowski, obviously, time is the forth dimension, along with the other three spatial dimensions. With a purely mathematical view of dimensions (to which it should be added that extra dimensions outside the observable three have not been proven to exist) the forth or fifth dimension would create an n-cube or more commonly known as a hypercube.

What they are talking about in your link is Minkowski spacetime. What you are talking about in your post is extradimensional mathematics. Linear mathematics (all mathematics is linear to some degree, even non-linear mathematics despite its name) is a good starting point to help us to begin to understand the nature of dimensions, but a fully mathematical approach, as mathematics exists in its current state, is a flawed approach to the attempt to understand the nature of dimensions - the universe does not exist on a grid; it has a curved nature that is not expressable through the use of straight lines, this can be evidenced by our inability to deal accurately with curvatures and subsiquent reliance upon Pi. The universe functions smoothly and does not share this same inaccuracy where curvatures are involved.
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 142
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/24/2016 8:37:39 AM

Posted By: CressB
That was not at all what Drink was talking about. Not even close. You seem to have a serious comprehension problem man

How Rude

I guess you two jokers are still having a Bromance but anyway read what your "Bromance" posted below


Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
Imagine this - We are somehow able to make a perfectly identical copy of you (relatively instantly, via some teleportation technology, instead of 'growing' it, just to keep this thought-experiment simple and take away some of what we might use as an excuse to muddy-up and distract from my question). The copy is exactly identical down to every subatomic particle (or even at the quantum level, which may or may not be what reveals the truth of all of this if we understood it enough as it applies to this), and identical in every single bit of knowledge, memory, and personality that you have.

and your Bromance got the concept from "Star Trek The Next Generation" from the episode "Second Chances"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geMGo2P94j4


Posted By: CressB
Hay Drink, what's the name of that psycological condition Ging posted about not to long ago, where the person believes themself to be smarter than they actually are.

why are you asking him, he already confessed that he wasn't the brightest bulb in the forum ...you can read it yourself in "MSG 10" at the link ... https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts16489670.aspx

in that post he even admit that when it comes to Brains that he was impotent, I was thinking maybe it's a typo and he meant omnipotent ....but I knew that he couldn't be that delusional

and that is what your Bromance consist of, you two commenting on the comprehension skill of others and yet unable to comprehend that all you two are doing is posting crap you got from Star Trek and deluding yourselves into believing that it's original thought

but anyway...as I've stated, give me any one of your past posts pertaining to science and I'll tell you which episode of Star Trek you got it from
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 143
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HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/24/2016 8:42:01 AM

Your not doing much better on comprehension either, but at least you seem honestly intested in the topic. Look, go back to page 6 and start off by watching the videos that Drink posted right before I started responding to drinks thought experiment, especially the first three videos. Then reread mine and Drink's conversation, if indeed you've actually read it, cause it doesn't seem like you have. Then if you still can't put together what drink was saying, come back her with what you do get and we'll discuss it further.

Putting your c0ckiness aside, I was jumping on the subject itself, not directly on someone's angle on the subject. I wasn't going against/for what drink was saying. Re-read my post. More than once, and maybe you'll understand. See, c0ckiness doesn't solve anything. :)
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 144
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Posted: 1/24/2016 1:33:05 PM

norwegianguy456:

Putting your c0ckiness aside, I was jumping on the subject itself, not directly on someone's angle on the subject. I wasn't going against/for what drink was saying. Re-read my post. More than once, and maybe you'll understand. See, c0ckiness doesn't solve anything. :)


The thing is man, that Drink already addressed the problems you raised with some pretty solid science and philosophy and then I further addressed the the problem with even more solid science. In light of what has already been presented about the topic your post is entirely irrelevant.


Consciousness is the same thing as the construct of our even more complex self in the sub-conscious. You knock around parts of the brain that handle the conscious, you lose a sense of consciousness -- temporarily or forever, but still alive. In the far future, a total insta-transporter making a COPY of someone would be Demonstratable proof of that, that would make those wanting to believe that the body's a shell and consciousness isn't done by the brain -- cry. :) Also, it'd be a weird device if you wanted to TRANSPORT. You would die. A copy of you would continue on. That would not be You, just because it's a copy of your now arm hair, sense of smell, consciousness, etc.


Now, if you want to go backwards in this conversation and revisit things that have already been addressed by others then you should start by arguing against the material that has already been presented to address your concerns, otherwise there is no continuity to this conversation and thus no progress.

I hope that my frustration makes a little more sence to you now.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 145
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Posted: 1/24/2016 2:55:09 PM
Quick, which episode of Star Trek was this from? -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWl5peI8HY

Or these? -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhYEWvWkWLg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lul-Y8vSr0I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBa9AlDJDMY
 CressB
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Posted: 1/24/2016 5:14:45 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAWl5peI8HY


Haha, I like that one... Banjo hah.

this would make for a perfect comparison between what the forum is like now and what it used to be like. Here's the second half of the comparison.

What the forum used to be like:

https://youtu.be/Af1OxkFOK18


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhYEWvWkWLg


WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! That was akward.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBa9AlDJDMY


Whoa!

Here's an accurate depiction of my reaction:

https://youtu.be/BNbMvlPc_7U
 funchesf
Joined: 6/27/2014
Msg: 147
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/25/2016 5:26:29 AM

Posted By: CressB
The thing is man, that Drink already addressed the problems you raised with some pretty solid science and philosophy and then I further addressed the the problem with even more solid science.

probable theories is not solid science and there is no such thing as solid philosophy, but you're welcome to give examples of what you believe it is


Posted By: drinkthesunwithmyface
Quick, which episode of Star Trek was this from? -

oh that's an easy one

the fact that you were suppose to place up one of your past posts but instead tried to hide behind youtube links only solidify your confession of being impotent pertaining to your Brain, the same thing happen to Spock when someone stole his brain in the Star Trek episode "Spock's Brain" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LyFYv35ANw

but anyway I've offered you and "CressB" a challenge to place up any one of your past posts pertaining to science and I in turn will tell you which episode of Star Trek you plagiarized the concept from

the fact that you guys refuse to do so or find it impossible to do so is an indication that I'm right and that you two lack any original thought beyond Star Fleet and therefore are part of the Borg Continuum

so come on...this is your chance to take control of The Enterprise, violate "The Prime Directive" and prove me wrong, it will not only be fun but educational

but if you guys choose not to do it, then let it be a lesson learned that perhaps you two Star Trek Nerds need to cease commenting on the comprehension skills of others in the forum
 xlr8ingme
Joined: 11/29/2015
Msg: 148
HOW TO TURN AN ATHEIST TO A THEIST
Posted: 1/25/2016 5:46:15 AM
^...but they find it so entertaining :)
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
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Posted: 1/29/2016 5:33:43 PM

the fact that you were suppose to place up one of your past posts but instead tried to hide behind youtube links only solidify your confession of being impotent pertaining to your Brain, the same thing happen to Spock when someone stole his brain in the Star Trek episode "Spock's Brain" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LyFYv35ANw

but anyway I've offered you and "CressB" a challenge to place up any one of your past posts pertaining to science and I in turn will tell you which episode of Star Trek you plagiarized the concept from

the fact that you guys refuse to do so or find it impossible to do so is an indication that I'm right and that you two lack any original thought beyond Star Fleet and therefore are part of the Borg Continuum

so come on...this is your chance to take control of The Enterprise, violate "The Prime Directive" and prove me wrong, it will not only be fun but educational

but if you guys choose not to do it, then let it be a lesson learned that perhaps you two Star Trek Nerds need to cease commenting on the comprehension skills of others in the forum

Dam. You're right.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
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Posted: 1/30/2016 9:20:07 AM

Then if you still can't put together what drink was saying, come back her with what you do get and we'll discuss it further.

Such an attitude will only position you in the dark spot in the corner when talking about the 3 "evil" topics (politics, religion, sports). Again, I wasn't picking apart what drinks or your posts per se -- I was taking a perspective on the topic, zooming out about the concept in general. Flip your hair & scarf and say "Well, I Never!" :) I say that because, instead of responding to what I was saying, you took the time to write to basically say I don't understand what x/y/z said. Yikes!

My 2 cents is a side note at those (if any) who believe it's some "mystery" about the classical philosophical situation where one gets in a teleporter, but instead of dissembling oneself and reassembling the person in another spot, just reassembling the person in the other spot (where you have two; a copy of oneself made). It's not a wonderous, difficult situation of "what am I" or "who am I", etc -- even though I guess in freshman philosophy class for those first tackling the (basic) subject, it's awe-inspiring, maybe.

There's nothing mysterious about it, is my point. Sure, weird, if done IRL -- of course. Especially if/when you talk to the copy of yourself. There's nothing that even remotely indicates that there's some shared consciousness or confusion about what-is, etc.
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