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 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 284
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But that's not the situation of the OP. Otherwise his gal by date #10 when he asked her to contribute, would have already let him know she doesn't have enough $ to make ends meet, or, at least let him know right then and brought him up to speed. Those aren't the heated controversies. The heated controversies are when a gal does make ends meet and can at least pay for a small treat (he's got the dinner, she's got the ice cream visit after) -- but doesn't want to, because she "wants a man". :)


This isn't unique to relationships. You have people that are givers and people that are takers in every walk of life. I can't stand to be around people that are misers and only take from people, so why would I date someone like that? The kind of person that has a tear in their eye when they're buying something they couldn't get a discount on. What's worse is being in a relationship where you're expected to do everything in bed and give all the affection. Like really, if the woman isn't into the guy, she should just buy a vibrator and stuff her face on her own dime. People are supposed to date because they're into each other, not because they're looking to parasite off someone.
 showboatsupreme
Joined: 1/25/2016
Msg: 285
who pays
Posted: 2/11/2016 4:03:07 PM


Like really, if the woman isn't into the guy, she should just buy a vibrator and stuff her face on her own dime. People are supposed to date because they're into each other, not because they're looking to parasite off someone.


Well, the vibrator doesn't feed her sushi, so she has to take the flesh equivalent.

Vote no on parasites!
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 286
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who pays
Posted: 2/11/2016 4:31:48 PM
butterchickenchuck
Unless she is younger and hotter than he, then he always pays, and it is part of the deal. As for women that say that a man "always pays as it is tradition", is in essence selling her favours.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 287
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who pays
Posted: 2/11/2016 6:15:36 PM

Show me a man who is with a woman who makes him feel this way [being an ATM with legs] and I'll show you a man who chooses poorly

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE POV (not mine, but trying to be fair and understand opposing mindset):

I think there's little argument that if a guy's left feeling this way, he made a poor choice. What makes a gal a good choice, is one who doesn't make him feel like he's a walking ATM, but a guy who feels like he's getting something in return -- her beautiful company, a chance with her, the fulfillment of courting her, etc. If he does not appreciate being in her company by paying her way for his chance with her and the fulfillment of the courting process with her, and thus feels like he's an ATM just because of that -- then he's not worth a true lady's time. And if a lady demands he buys her gifts or takes her to the most expensive places as if it's a shopping spree, thus understandably making him feel like an ATM, then she's not a true lady.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 288
who pays
Posted: 2/11/2016 7:42:25 PM
Msg 287:

It's one thing for a man to pay for a date. But that's an example why I would never go to an expensive place on a first date / meeting. If a drink cost $15 and each of us have a couple of drinks, that's already $60. Not including the tip and other possible expenses.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 289
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who pays
Posted: 2/11/2016 9:53:23 PM

I think there's little argument that if a guy's left feeling this way, he made a poor choice. What makes a gal a good choice, is one who doesn't make him feel like he's a walking ATM, but a guy who feels like he's getting something in return -- her beautiful company, a chance with her, the fulfillment of courting her, etc. If he does not appreciate being in her company by paying her way for his chance with her and the fulfillment of the courting process with her, and thus feels like he's an ATM just because of that -- then he's not worth a true lady's time. And if a lady demands he buys her gifts or takes her to the most expensive places as if it's a shopping spree, thus understandably making him feel like an ATM, then she's not a true lady.


He would be a pretty sad human being if he felt the only thing he brings to the table is money. If she has no desire to be around him unless it's on his dime, is she really that into him? I'm no dating expert, but relationships tend to work well if the woman is into the guy she's dating.
 takeachancexoxo
Joined: 10/30/2015
Msg: 290
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 6:07:25 AM
Who buys the food when you guys cook together?
If she is buys the food all the time when you cook together, then foot the restaurant bill...
Grocery shopping for dinners are just as expensive now a days....
 takeachancexoxo
Joined: 10/30/2015
Msg: 291
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 6:08:46 AM
Well said Mr butterchickenchuck
 Stellan77
Joined: 2/8/2016
Msg: 292
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 9:43:08 AM
I never understood why there is this expectation that the man always pays for a first date and then the woman will reciprocate. A first date is still in the POTENTIAL relationship phase. What happens if she decides she doesn't want to see him again? Is she still going to reciprocate? A lot of women say they will start paying their own way once the relationship is established. Why is that? Women don't share with people who they are not intimately close with, but a man is expected to? Seems like a double standard to me.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 293
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who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 9:51:40 AM

He would be a pretty sad human being if he felt the only thing he brings to the table is money.

But is he a sad individual if it's not the only thing to bring to the table, but a Required Ingredient?

If she has no desire to be around him unless it's on his dime, is she really that into him?

I think it's more like she becomes not into him when it's Not on his dime, when she was leading up to it. Obviously the POV is a spectrum, not an on/off switch -- so it varies across. But said "proper, traditional" gals (and guys) would see the guy wanting to trade/share dating bills like friends going out, as a guy wanting to go to a cafeteria to eat... or demand to Only go to weird Indian food places. Some gals may be fine with that. Some gals Completely turned off. Many gals not ideal, but if they really dig the guy, OK.

IMO, after the initial dates have passed and things have settled in a bit, the reason mutually paying varying bill expenses "ruins" things for some gals (and guys), is because they're Conditioned that way. Since it's "conditioned tradition", there's rarely second guessing it, and many will get offended if you point it out -- as they're traditionalists and see it as a Higher Order, and seeing them as one would see a teen who's "conditioned" can irk them. BUT, it's the truth.

For me, I go practicality. I follow tradition the more traditional of the situation. If the gal is a working independent gal, that doesn't resonate with traditional man-always-pays. But regardless, if I ask her out, I'm going to aim to pay. If she's independent & working, and we're past the initial dates, no, I don't expect to pay for everything as if she's a gal who could only get a part-time or real low pay job at best, or is a stay at home mom (or about to be) who tends to kids (This is WHY the tradition's there in the first place, of course).

I understand a man leading the dance, and reflecting those things in life. I get it. But my POV is that Expecting a guy to pay for all bills of all outings big & small, is more than leading a dance. It's more like putting On a dance for a gal, as if they're having a dance-off... but she doesn't dance. :)

With that said, I still do it to a certain extent, as long as it's appreciated -- like a gal who can't afford to even go out on her own much at all. If said gal who is independent and can afford to go out on her own reasonably doesn't treat it like a gal who can't, when it comes in reference to Appreciation, then it's quite a turn-off.
 Ladyinred0407
Joined: 2/6/2016
Msg: 294
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 12:04:25 PM
Who pays?
There is no "Fits all" rule.
Male and/or female
Family/friends/co-workers
Have known each other for a lifetime to meeting face to face for the first time,
Complete strangers/meet in person, first contact via internet, by phone

Make no assumptions. Declare or ask/Communicate.
"My treat"/"Your treat?"/"Go dutch?"

Or you could always go with Rock-Paper-Scissors! ?Draw straws?
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 295
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who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 2:10:10 PM

blimey, why the dance metaphor? I read it twice and still can't make head nor tail of it....dance is not complex :)

What I'm saying isn't complex either -- much less complex than break dancing, that's for sure! :)

A guy's "role" for many, is to lead a gal in a dance as they dance together. Essentially, things tilt toward him being a leader in the relationship between the two. My point is, if a guy is going to pay for all bills of all outings big & small -- it's more than just leading a mutual dance. He's putting on a dance for her. Equating it to leading a dance would be the guy driving to the place, picking her up, making a decision on where to go when it's narrowed down to "either way" choices -- and sure, for him to maybe get the main bill, she gets the tip. Or him to get the whole bill, and her to order drinks for the night cap. Those who expect him to pay for anything & everything aren't dancing with him -- they're watching him put On a dance.
 SunshineGirl__
Joined: 10/7/2014
Msg: 296
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 2:21:38 PM
Jezus…..you’ve posted some convoluted shiatsu but this has got to be the worst.
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 297
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 2:38:16 PM
Clog dancing?
" dance for me, dance" said I think no woman ever
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 298
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 2:44:10 PM
Not literally perhaps.. But some guys are "dancing monkeys" for women..I.e. Always having the burden of having to "entertain" her, think of and do exciting things so Her Highness never ever has to suffer a moment of boredom..
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 299
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 3:07:44 PM

Not literally perhaps.. But some guys are "dancing monkeys" for women..I.e. Always having the burden of having to "entertain" her, think of and do exciting things so Her Highness never ever has to suffer a moment of boredom..

Wouldn't that be the problem of the guy? If I'm not about to jump through hoops for a guy so he doesn't have to suffer a moment of boredom, why would a guy figure it's some kind of obligation for him to do so? If it seems to some men that "all" women are like that, they're obviously drawn to that kind of woman for other reasons and that comes along with the other aspects of her personality, whether that's old fashioned principals/expectations or a princess mentality. Look for women with less old fashioned principals or who aren't a princess. Simply don't keep doing the same thing with the same type of people and expect a different result.

As for the dancing metaphor, I'm thinking someone has to take the lead or it would be a virtual tug of war on the dance floor in a purely physical sense. In life's who pays aspect of things, there are obviously no set rules judging from the different answers you get from different people. If a guy feels less than manly if he doesn't pay, it's up to him to find a woman who likes to have him pay her way - if he doesn't, then he finds someone who's of a different mindset and the same goes for a woman. This "me man, you follow" attitude makes my eyelid twitch!
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 300
who pays
Posted: 2/12/2016 4:58:44 PM
Where do I find this dancing monkey? " Take my money"
My husband and I couldn't learn to ballroom dance as we both tried to lead..
plus it was just such an odd assortment of people
And the Teacher snapped her gum. One two, snapsnap
Plus I couldn't do my signature move") I'm in a wonderful mood btw
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 301
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who pays
Posted: 2/13/2016 12:02:26 PM

If I'm not about to jump through hoops for a guy so he doesn't have to suffer a moment of boredom, why would a guy figure it's some kind of obligation for him to do so?

Good question pertaining to the early-dating phase... but there's a basic answer for those who flash the "I'm traditional" card, much the same way that a guy Always pays: He's the Contestant, and she's the panel of judges. One of the reasons he "leads" (ala dancing metaphor) is because of this, not just because "he's a man". A by-product of Courting. Much like picking up a gal and garnering her interest in the first place, the early-dating phase follows suit. He proves himself to her, she holds the Yay or Nay card. Not all dating falls exactly in line with this, as people meet in different ways in different circumstances, etc -- but it's the underlining "flow" of the early-dating phase that many self-described "traditional" people expect to one degree or another.

If it seems to some men that "all" women are like that, they're obviously drawn to that kind of woman for other reasons and that comes along with the other aspects of her personality

I agree, it's a kind of woman who wants/likes that to some degree. And it's the guy assuming she wants/likes that because she's female... and many women who aren't so much like that will still roll that way if he does it cordially and all. But in the end, the more self-described "traditional" gals -- the ones who are at least going to be very turned off if after date #x he suggests not paying for the Whole date every time -- are going to want Man=Contestant, Woman=Panel of Judges to one degree or another (but not think of it that way even tho it is).

As for the dancing metaphor, I'm thinking someone has to take the lead or it would be a virtual tug of war on the dance floor in a purely physical sense.

I think in some circumstances, yes -- but no, not necessarily. I mean, no more "leading" than two friends going out. If there's not one friend leading the other, but it's mutual, there's no tug-of-war (although with some personalities there can be - lol).

In life's who pays aspect of things, there are obviously no set rules judging from the different answers you get from different people.

Well, there are some basic foundational rules set for most people. At least Expectations, if not 'rules' in some people's minds. About on the same level as the guy expected to approach a gal to make the first move, to get the ball rolling to potentially garner some interest. It's in the very very small minority the other way around.

Essentially, the basic expectations/'rules' are, in common Adult boy-meets-girl situations: He pays for the 1st few dates, definitely the 1st. At some point (insert varying POVs to say When), she is to contribute financially within her reasonable means -- unless she's Poor and he's not, OR she's a lady who is hardened in the mindset that the guy should Always pay, no matter what. The problem with the latter is that said lady almost always thinks THAT is *the* RULE, and there's just some loser guys who don't go by that.

That's why when it comes to the dancing metaphor, it shouldn't be the guy dancing as the Contestant as if he's on "America's Got Talent", with her being the panel of judges. Whether it's choosing the places, paying the various bills on this and that, or selling/marketing themselves to the other person. IMO, they should be dancing Together. And you can still have a "man" in the traditional sense still lead that dance -- just not put on a solo show to prove himself to her (unless it was understood she's not into him but is going to give him a chance after he pesters her to have 'a chance'). :)
 Stellan77
Joined: 2/8/2016
Msg: 302
who pays
Posted: 2/13/2016 12:34:00 PM
If a guy shows up looking like Fabio Lanzoni, the woman is definately paying.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 303
who pays
Posted: 2/13/2016 12:41:18 PM

Or you could always go with Rock-Paper-Scissors! ?Draw straws?


Don't forget a coin toss or pulling names out of a hat.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 304
who pays
Posted: 2/13/2016 2:36:23 PM

If a guy shows up looking like Fabio Lanzoni, the woman is definately paying.


I remember flipping through the channels on TV one time and there was a talk show that had Fabio on as a guest, so I watched the end of the interview. Fabio said he's ready to settle down and get married, but the problem is finding the One that he would want to be with for the long haul. I was thinking, if Fabio is having trouble finding the One, what chance have I got? But then I thought celebrities could have a harder time finding a true loving partner because a lot of people would be more in love with their fame and fortune than the celebrity as a person, and the celebrity would have to try to determine who is genuinely interested in them as a person and who isn't, but is pretending to be.
 marrakech2
Joined: 2/4/2016
Msg: 305
who pays
Posted: 2/13/2016 3:33:47 PM
For all the women fawning over, there were and equal number that didn't find him remotely attractive. The hair alone made me want to puke. The honly n would open his mouth and talk, double puke. We are all attracted to what we are attracted to. And just like men and say, Angelina, you might fvck her but you might not want to spend your like with her.

My take on Fabio, dumb as a stick. But celebrity is celebrity, or money. Look at Woody Allen, always had a woman. Trump, there's one. Hell, Manson has a woman. How net Boo Boo' mother always has a man. Okay, I tossed that in for fun.

I hope Fabio found his forever lady, he deserves to be happy. I wonder what he looks like now, I'll have to look him up. BTW, muscleman Arnold makes me puke too, he did back in the day and he still does every time he opens his mouth...he had a lovely wife out of his league yet banged the homely maid, go figure.
 Butterchickenchuck
Joined: 9/18/2015
Msg: 306
who pays
Posted: 2/13/2016 3:42:18 PM
" muscleman Arnold makes me puke ..he had a lovely wife out of his league "








Wait what ? Out of his league ?
Not that I want to sound like I'm defending him but he's one of the most successful bodybuilders of all time and THEN goes on to have a pretty successful movie career .....how do you figure she was " out of his league " ????????
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 307
who pays
Posted: 2/13/2016 3:44:32 PM
No need to worry Marrakech..I highly doubt either guy will be searching for you.approaching you..you can hold on to all that puke.
 marrakech2
Joined: 2/4/2016
Msg: 308
who pays
Posted: 2/13/2016 6:14:49 PM
No, I have no fear of Arnold or Fabio chasing after me. Just like you have no fear of an attractive woman chasing after you. ^^^ I was just pointing out that not all women got all weak knees and wet panties over Fabio.

Butterchickenchuck, Arnold was what he was, a body builder, thanks to steroids. It's not like he was working on a cure for cancer or even creating a painting, he was lifting weights. He as a gym rat, a roid monkey. And he's homely as hell. As for acting, yes, he made a whole pile of money. But he's not in the category of acting like Gregory Peck or Paul Newman or acting and creating like a Robert Redford. And yes, she was out of his league, old family history, old money, educated, intelligent, attractive. Yes, her family had a few "setbacks", just being polite. But lineage and class, she had it all. He pumped iron. She helped make his political career and he...fvcked the maid.
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