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 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 12/24/2015
Msg: 409
who paysPage 17 of 58    (3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43)
^ If you can make dam sure they'll never get out again, then sure, lock them up. Otherwise you're creating more problems. Jail doesn't teach people how to "be good". But punishment is so engrained in people's minds that it doesn't matter that it doesn't work.
 crook_catcher
Joined: 1/27/2016
Msg: 410
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 11:24:08 AM

Jail doesn't teach people how to "be good"


Nope. Never has. It's supposed to be a deterrent? A reason to maybe think about the ramifications of your actions before hand? Perhaps a topic better discussed in a separate thread other than "who pays"? Because the way it's looking the victim is the only one who's paying here. :/
 sundownertoo
Joined: 1/27/2016
Msg: 411
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 11:31:24 AM
Jails were never created to teach people to be good. If you didn't learn how to be "good" from birth by your family or a school or in church or just through day to day learning...you ain't gonna learn how to be good anywhere. So we house you when you're bad. If you're bad, I don't want you living next door to me. I want you housed in jail as punishment and maybe when you're released you will know that when you're bad, you get punished, not hugged.

So who pays - you pay for being bad by giving up your freedom and "we" pay to keep you there.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 12/24/2015
Msg: 412
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 11:32:13 AM

It's supposed to be a deterrent? A reason to maybe think about the ramifications of your actions before hand?


Okay, trauma is a very complex issue. So let's just look at FAS. What, about between fifty and eighty per cent of incarcerated people? Surprise: FAS people CAN'T think of the ramifications of their actions ahead of time. Helping them try to monitor their behaviour is waaay more complicated than punishment.
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 413
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 11:49:17 AM
Got REALLY off topic here. .possible better solution, reduce the numbers of boozers having kids..reduce availability of booze..I dunno..what is the 50 to 80% figure based on? Guess? Anything remotely scientific?
Because that's a quite high margin of error..not very 'precise '..
 cookymaker
Joined: 6/28/2014
Msg: 414
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 12:00:53 PM
Who pays...
Well, my late husband PAID for my engagement ring .. then someone broke in and stole it. The insurance company PAID to replace it...
The only one who didn't PAY - was the uncaught thief..

but back to what this thread is about..
Who pays?
If a man is very concerned that on the first meet he might have to pay for a cup of coffee at the least - or a meal at most or she is concerned about either being considered a gold digger or insulting him by offering to pay her share --
then keep it simple. Sit on a park bench and talk. Walk through an outdoor flea market .. and talk.
If that works, THEN go get that cup of coffee or ice cream cone. Here's an idea. He buys hers. She buys his.
BUT if the next time is an actual date.... the inviter pays.
Keep it simple

You can argue over money after you are married like normal, healthy couples do
 crook_catcher
Joined: 1/27/2016
Msg: 415
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 12:05:00 PM

Okay, trauma is a very complex issue.


Yes it is.

I've never looked at your profile so I don't know what your occupation is. I imagine in some sort of social work capacity by the way you present yourself. An honorable endeavor no doubt.

The only trauma I allowed myself to be concerned with were those experienced by my victims, whether family members of homicide victims, assault/sexual assault victims and children.

During interviews with suspects I routinely asked if they didn't recognize that what they were doing was wrong, most admitted they did. I also asked if they weren't afraid of being caught, some said they did others said they really never thought about it.

I'm just an old detective. I don't have the answers for every dynamic involved in criminal behavior. I do however believe that every victim should have someone champion for them when they have been violated, regardless of the reasons attributed to the suspects actions. ymmv
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 12/24/2015
Msg: 416
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 12:18:44 PM
^ I would agree about helping victims of crime. But you know what's funny? Most offenders were victims of crime. Usually in the form of child abuse. Often child sexual abuse. Which they're reliving in their heads every day. In a way, that's where they still are - in fight or flight mode (thus the violent crimes). The idea is to get them out of that mode to try to stop the cycle.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 417
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 12:26:10 PM
The other part of the criminal justice system though is to create a "fairness" in society.

We all sign on to the social contract as long as there's the perception of fairness. When it isn't fair, that's when you have revolution and rampant crime. FIFA is wildly corrupt. The referees see that their bosses are all on the take, so they take bribes. Not all of them, but enough.

If crime isn't punished, the social contract breaks down.

Just like when crime is unequally punished.
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 418
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 12:38:13 PM
^^
Yes a bit like when Jean Chretien, while PM, tried to use his influence to force the president of the Business Development Bank , a Crown Corporation, give a loan to someone who was going to buy a golf course and resort that Chretien had part ownership in..that Chretien wanted to get sold, unload it..

even though the loan was already rejected on business grounds, as too risky..Chretien tried to bully the president into overriding and reversing that decision in order to facilitate the sale.

instead of being prosecuted, he was awarded an Order of Canada..

V

yes like that also..corruption is not limited to a particular political party.
you forgot ( and I did too) to mention Mulroney visiting a lobbyist, Schreiber, in sleazy motels and accepting envelopes full of cash..

and Sleaze Mulroney also has an Order of Canada, I think? In good corrupt company. .means very little. .like a Queens Counsel..means someone has been a lawyer for X years without being indicted..yet..

whatsa and dad, just use a "Tap Out" signal of submission, as in MMA fights.

but I guess you win..Conservatives = completely and absolutely corrupt

beloved Liberals = pure as the driven snow.

VVV
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 419
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 12:42:46 PM
Or like when Mulroney was elected and declared a net worth of about $150.000; earned about $120.000 a year as PM; sent his kids to private boarding school in the states at $50,000 US per annum; had a wife who would go on $50,000 spending sprees regularly. Yet bought a mansion as soon as he stepped down.

Like that.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 12/24/2015
Msg: 420
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 12:45:11 PM
Half Time: I don't care how many times you bring this up, I'm not entering into a "social" contract with you until we agree on a safe word.









In order to maintain the highest quality forums you are restricted to having no more then 2 of the last 10 posts on a thread.
Since 2 of the last 10 posts are yours you can not post to this thread.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 421
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 12:50:37 PM
Is is my fault you can't say the safe word with a ball gag in your mouth?

In order to maintain the highest quality forums you are restricted to having no more then 2 of the last 10 posts on a thread.
Since 2 of the last 10 posts are yours you can not post to this thread.

Edit: Oh, and like Harper who came from a modest background. Never worked a day of his life in the private sector, yet declared a personal fortune of over $10 million when sworn in. His comment was, "I have to tell you how much. I don't have to tell you how."
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 422
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 3:23:57 PM

Well, my late husband PAID for my engagement ring .. then someone broke in and stole it. The insurance company PAID to replace it...
The only one who didn't PAY - was the uncaught thief..

Well, the gal the thief gave it to still didn't have to pay for it. Just collateral damage in society where a guy was just trying to make things on an equal paying field so he wouldn't have to pay either! ;) All kidding aside, it's good in that situation, at the end of the day, it was the insurance company being a victim. Little sympathy had there for people. :)

If a man is very concerned that on the first meet he might have to pay for a cup of coffee at the least - or a meal at most or she is concerned about either being considered a gold digger or insulting him by offering to pay her share --
then keep it simple. Sit on a park bench and talk. Walk through an outdoor flea market .. and talk.

I don't think any guy is concerned he has to pay for a cup of coffee or an ice cream cone. Finances don't really play a role into the issue when it's on that level. It's more the principle of the matter -- for both opposing sides. Those with the "man always pays for everything" mentality -- treating every instance of going out as if the guy asked to take the gal out -- end up not seeing the bigger picture. That mentality is also saying that the gal never contributes... which makes her a bigger "cheap skate" if she has a POV that she's in no position to ever contribute within her comfortable means.

BUT if the next time is an actual date.... the inviter pays.

First, there may not be an Invitation involved after the first few/handful of dates and them clicking. Many times it'll be more like one coming up with an idea (and another very possibly suggesting a similar one), much the same as friends conjure things up. Like just an agreement to "get together next Friday" and they sort out where to go. Point being -- No Invitations Required for going out together. :)

If one's going to alter/stretch the term "inviting" to be the one suggesting something the next time or the primary idea generator on where exactly to go to some time -- if it's the gal, which happens a lot, is she going to pay? Nope. So we can't go by that rule, because although guys in most situations would likely pay more times when not an established Couple, it'd certainly turn the dating "rulez" on it's head if it was Actually applied in our social construct.
 Stellan77
Joined: 2/8/2016
Msg: 423
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 4:32:45 PM

If crime isn't punished, the social contract breaks down.

Just like when crime is unequally punished.


The police didn't do anything about some young punks who threw rotten eggs at my window. I guess our society is breaking down.
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 424
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 4:40:04 PM
Robert Pickton..there was a poor guy from your home province of BC. .I'm sure the poor guy was a victim..abused as a child..oh dear me. Could still be rehabilitated. .49 victims, ah well..

likely if and when the serial killer operating on the "Highway of Tears" is ever caught, we will find the same about him :(
another poor abused person from BC..Clifford Olsen..Just needed to be rehabilitated.
 crook_catcher
Joined: 1/27/2016
Msg: 425
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 4:43:11 PM

The police didn't do anything about some young punks who threw rotten eggs at my window. I guess our society is breaking down.


Well dang it! You can't catch a break of any kind can you? Cheap non contributing women, punks throwing eggs at your house and now the cops won't do anything about it. I can't offer advice on the women obviously but buy a carton of eggs and throw back next time. ;)
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 426
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 5:09:48 PM
Carton of BIGGER eggs.
Yea, lets spend more time worrying about the perps than their victims
I wonder if wanting to go dutch first meet should be on the books?
Lower Expectations
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 12/24/2015
Msg: 427
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 5:54:31 PM
I'm really sorry if I sounded like I was undermining victims' rights. I guess I assumed it's a given that victims have a right to be protected. It's just that the way we try to do it the majority of the time backfires.

I know more about youth offenders than adult offenders. You know what a lot of youth get charged with? Assaulting their parents. Guess if they grew up witnessing their parents assaulting each other? Guess if that has extreme long term consequences? There's a reason why funds are allocated to "Children Who Witness Abuse" programs. And for those motivated by money: It's way waaay less tax dollars than what goes into incarcerating people.

The major predictors of youth substance abuse and violent crime are things like poverty, neglect, and a lack of perceived safety and belonging in their communities. Want to keep kids from joining gangs (or egging houses, for that matter)? Open free recreational facilities for youth. Toooo easy. And it protect victims :)

It really is true that "It takes a village to raise a child". Don't want to be part of that village? You might get egged ;)

I don't know anything about rehabilitating serial killers. I do know that they make up an unbelievably small percentage of the people in jails.

* Most youth who commit grossly violent crimes have been sexually abused. So you can kind of see how the victim and the perpetrator can be the same person.
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 428
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 6:03:50 PM
Oh come on now
Take them into your home, show them understanding
I avoided one call out, I wont the next
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 12/24/2015
Msg: 429
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 6:10:49 PM
^ I would not suggest that you take violent youths into your home. There are people who do this, but they have a very specific skill set, and a great deal of support. And it can't be a group of youths, and they can't be under the influence of substances.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 430
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 2/21/2016 7:34:20 PM
stellan77

I hope you are kidding about the rotten eggs. At least you didn't get them through an open window, all over your face.
The cops have better things to do then review your surveillance footage showing the young punks throwing eggs. Because if you don't have that, how are they to be caught?? Just for argument's sake.....
 Aprilikesrosasblancas
Joined: 1/27/2016
Msg: 431
who pays
Posted: 2/22/2016 9:16:58 AM

better yet randomly go to your local jail and put money on the books of someone that doesn't have any money. screw people out here in the world... prisoners need more help. I"m going to donate to a prisoner's books tomorrow... it's hard being in there with no commissary


cheese&crackers... We are in the prison part........dutch people should be in jail, So they will learn a lesson?......lol


Nah.!!

Seriously now:
This is very divine gesture of you, and this is the human and spiritual part that many disagree,.... forgive those who have hurt us.



People (against their will) already give them help by paying taxes.! part of the taxes peoples pay goes to jail.
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 432
who pays
Posted: 2/22/2016 12:37:23 PM
Not sure the gifts to people in jail was so holy..or "selfless"..

could be self interest at play, the poster has mentioned that she was recently incarcerated. .
 crook_catcher
Joined: 1/27/2016
Msg: 433
who pays
Posted: 2/22/2016 2:55:17 PM

I guess our society is breaking down.
You guess? Oh it has been for some time now. The police are too busy pulling people over for going 5 clicks over the speed limit and wasting the tax payer's money.


No...no...no! They are actually being made to make citizens give a double dip. Taxes plus fines. Heck most state courts with solicitors will tell you their primary function is as a revenue generator. They don't want to put you in jail. They want to fine you and/or put you on probation so you can pay that fine.

But wouldn't it be great to be able to blame it on just giving tickets for speeding though! We could turn the country around in one day! Abolish speed limits! ;)

FYI those speeding tickets are a strong motivator for your local politicians as a source of revenue in city courts. They're the ones calling the chief of police saying that citizens are complaining about speeders and want something done. The city manager tells the chief who in turn tells the capt who tells the Sgt who....well you get the idea.


Police depts. get no direct money from tickets. The courts and local or state govt get them.
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