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 BelleAtlantic
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 559
who paysPage 23 of 58    (18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58)

I figure those who begin the relationship with low quality, however...are laying a foundation.


100%

Start the way you want to finish.
 Lasthookbringsme
Joined: 11/8/2015
Msg: 560
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 7:42:16 AM
Piggy-backing, here:



we think highly of ourselves, regardless of the reality...



Whose reality other than my own should I consider, when building my own life or considering an intimate relationship with somebody? That doesn't mean I'm going to uninvite somebody else's reality when we agree to share.

I prefer to date somebody with a similar age (or at the most, within ten years older than me) and scope of cultural and social understanding. I'm not a cheapskate; I'm generous with my time, effort, resources, care, cooking, and love -- I expect similarly (that doesn't mean I expect the exact same method of giving I employ. I won't exert the effort for somebody who doesn't give a shit about me, however.



b/c our reality revolves around us.



I don't build my reality around the varying realities shared between strangers in a dating forum.



we are the most important person in our world,


When it comes to intimate relationships and the willingness to share, ongoing consent is essential. If share my reality with the reality of an emotional cheapskate, I'll go broke (so to speak) -- and I don't have to consent to this to give anybody consideration or make a relationship appear equal or unselfish.

Initial dialogue and exchanges in the primary days of dating set the whole stage for the relationship to come. If you begin to relate to somebody who's only half-assedly interested in you, your whole relationship will be based on you making unyielding compromises for somebody who doesn't give a shit about you.
 woodnymph4
Joined: 2/15/2016
Msg: 561
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 8:25:50 AM

I've taken a woman on ten dates over a period of five weeks. None of the dates were expensive ($20-$70) but she has never offered to chip in or pay. I brought this up after date ten and she took offense, said it was too soon for me to start complaining. My question: How many dates should a man pay for before the woman contributes? And when is it appropriate to bring it up? Thanks all


And then this -



I figure those who begin the relationship with low quality, however...are laying a foundation.

and


100%
Start the way you want to finish.


So going by the original poster's question, msg. #1 - what is your take on him "laying a foundation" or his date "laying the foundation". How are BOTH starting? What is he putting out there and what is she putting out there in regard to - this is what we have done for 10 dates...how will we manage the rest of our lives together?

And no one, not one single person, should put up with an "emotional cheapskate". Never.
 Whisky_River
Joined: 12/2/2015
Msg: 562
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 8:35:43 AM

100%
Start the way you want to finish



I think the best phrase is quality is a 2 way street...
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 563
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 9:04:48 AM

If one begins a relationship worrying about nickels and dimes...I suspect the relationship will continue to focus on nickels and dimes and "I spent $100 on you, you owe me some play time" type of trade.

I agree about nickels and dimes, but $100 a pop isn't nickels and dimes when dates add up -- and not just with a singular person, but when goes out on 1-3 dates each with Betty, Veronica, and Sally, etc over time. The important thing is this: If the gal's going to be mildly turned off (worrying, as you put it) -- then it breaks your rule too, right? :)

Let's just be clear tho -- your position should read: "If a Guy begins dating a gal, worrying about the 10s and 20s he's amassed spending... I suspect the relationship will continue to focus around the 10s and 20s he's amassing, and 'I spent $100 on you, you owe me some play time' type of trade."

I don't agree the flow of dating will turn to pay-to-play, no. I think that concept will be in many guys' minds who Don't Allow a gal to contribute. Why would a guy be so hardened in not allowing a gal to even contribute on a date? Because it evens the "playing field". OK, why is that a problem underneath it all? Well, the concept of pay-to-play may be there -- or just pay-to-have-more-control-over-the-situation. A feeling of loss of control is why guys don't want that her to contribute. She owes him less.

a relationship should be about time and energy shared, not how much was given up and then received back in trade.

True, but again, a gal-never-pays-anything rule will sway things into a "trade deal" mentality to some extent, even if it's just for a sense of control (indirect 'owing' back). If one was to go by the rule to not be concerned about "nickels and dimes", then you wouldn't have any rule about only-the-guy-pays.

I'm not a cheapskate; I'm generous with my time, effort, resources, care, cooking, and love

Someone can be a great person (guy or gal) with the qualities you express there, but be a cheapskate when it comes to money. Also, there's two phases of dating -- the initial collection of initial dates... and then the phase of being an item, where care, cooking, love, etc more come into play and more expressed with them. The guy should have that, too. Maybe he paints and gives you a painting. Maybe she cooks and invites him over and does it for them both. He should be bringing time, effort, care, and love just as much as she. If there's a Big Imbalance on that when the two have become an item, there's understandably an issue with them.

The social POV that stirs the most controversy is that in that initial phase of a collection of dates (in the OP's situation, 10 dates) -- the POV that the gal's contribution is her presence, and him having the gracious Opportunity to go out with her -- while he pays her way. IF they start to become an item, she will contribute more than he does in other things like cooking and doing odds and ends, and maybe they go out less frequently and things balance out more. Or maybe not, as for most who hold the cheapskate-gal rule that the guy-always-pays-even-if-not-asking-to-take-her-out -- there's not going to be a magical balance on things when becoming an item, as most will hold he's "the provider". "Tradition" applies a general finances-for-affection social trade.
 BelleAtlantic
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 564
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 9:26:50 AM

So going by the original poster's question, msg. #1 - what is your take on him "laying a foundation" or his date "laying the foundation". How are BOTH starting? What is he putting out there and what is she putting out there in regard to - this is what we have done for 10 dates...how will we manage the rest of our lives together?

And no one, not one single person, should put up with an "emotional cheapskate". Never.


That's easy, be who you plan to be in someone's life from a very beginning. Don't start paying for everything every single time, and then resent someone for not offering to pay or not paying. If you intended it to be a shared financial venture, you should have presented that from a very beginning, instead of enjoying the other benefits and then wondering when she will contribute financially. In other words, stop thinking with your d*ck.

Whatever it is that you want, and ideally expect things to be, start from there. Don't set things up so that you get what you want, and then after you get benefits, you want the dynamic to change, what kind of crap is that? OP let 10 whole dates (and sex) happen without uttering a word, and then he wants to change the equation. Do you seriously think OP was gonna let 10 dates (and so sex) happen without saying anything? Nope! Nope! Nope! He got what he wanted and now wants to balance out the equation.

I'm going to see someone tomorrow for our 5th date, we're going to spend the whole day and night together. This is someone who has gone out of his way to be accommodating to me, he has paid for everything, EVERYTHING (with the exception that I paid for his coffee yesterday), and things in NYC aren't cheap. He picks me up, drops me off (and he lives a considerate distance from me), from the first time we met, he offered to take me anywhere I want no matter how far or inconvenient. He always takes me out to dinner and anything else that comes up, even broke night with me to then take me to the airport at wee late hours in the morning. I was unhappy the first day I arrived at my destination and he was concerned enough and offered to pay for the fee ($70) to change my flight so I can come back home earlier and spend time with him instead.

Yesterday, he surprised me by taking me out in the middle of the day ( rush hour) just to spend time with me and have dinner before dropping me off at school for my courses. I ended up skipping the first class because we were late on our way back, and he offered to teach me the course I missed (since the course I'm taking is something in his profession). From a very beginning he showed concern, offered to help me, made recommendations, always asks how I'm doing in my courses and elsewhere. Has already shared what his short term and long term goals are, actively expresses that he cares about me and enjoys my company, and has never made a move. He respects my boundaries and lets me lead the way, he values my honesty though I can tell he's afraid of me sometimes, because I don't hold back on my words, lmao.

On our second date, I mentioned I was planning a trip in March overseas and we will likely not have communication, should he decide to go there at the same time (not together). He said he'd try his best to be there and was going to set me up with a device from which I can connect to WIFI, so we can communicate either way. He told me about an island destination over there that he'd take me to if we happen to be there at the same time. He knows the place very well, and already recommended where to stay, and how to go about making the trip less expensive. All in all, he is always thinking of future plans.

See? This is the man he plans to be my life. He hasn't so much as gotten a kiss, hasn't even skirted around it, and it's not like we haven't been in close proximity, we've even danced together, yet he hasn't tried. If later on, he changes anything from whom he is showing me to be, then I will be feel deceived, like he put on an act to get something he wanted. It's not a matter of fairness, but if you let things go and then you bring them up, you were dishonest from a very beginning. And no one has time for that, we are all adults, open your mouth from a very beginning.
 woodnymph4
Joined: 2/15/2016
Msg: 565
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 9:41:06 AM
^^^^ This man sounds like a lovely man - intelligent, generous, accommodating, caring, kind, etc. He seems to enjoy going out of his way to please you. What have you done for him? Other than the coffee? How have you "given" of yourself like he has with you? And I don't mean money, cash. And by your logic, he has been doing the giving (I'm only guessing because you haven't stated what you have put forth so far) and you would then expect him to be like this, umm, forever?
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 566
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 9:48:42 AM
So there are people who act like whipped dogs..doormats. good to know, start the way you want to finish.
 Ladyinred0407
Joined: 2/6/2016
Msg: 567
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 10:11:53 AM

....................the more you respect yourself, the easier it is to identify those who don't respect you...b/c their behavior is the opposite of how you treat your own self. its uncomfortable, .................


I agree whole heartedly with what GTO wrote. Thank you, GTO. THIS IS the bottom line^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ !
It applies to all aspects of one's life, not just dating.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 568
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 10:36:54 AM

Don't start paying for everything every single time, and then resent someone for not offering to pay or not paying. If you intended it to be a shared financial venture, you should have presented that from a very beginning

The first several or even handful of dates usually aren't going to reflect when you're in the other gear of seeing each other, though. If a guy asks to take a gal out, he's aiming to pay. So say he's chasing her for a bit and paying because he's making all the moves to keep the ball rolling by reaching out to ask her out -- and on date #5 things have shifted into another gear of him not having to chase anymore. Said (normal) guy isn't going to have beef about paying in those first dates. He was putting himself in position of doing so by asking/chasing. Was he supposed to have a conversation about what-ifs, while on those dates? "Hey, say I get your interest and I'm not chasing you so much and things flow into a smooth gear where I'm not asking you out, as we just, well, go out as we start seeing each other. Do you believe in contributing as a woman when not Asked out?" Talk about bad game, especially when you're (at least passively) chasing! Now there's some big issue about "who pays". Yikes. Mood ruiner. Said guy doesn't mind paying for the first few dates or so when he's Asking her Out -- but he MAY not be able to find out until after that 1st phase that she is a contributor.

He CAN find out -- especially if he's smooth in flowing conversation, just as to learn about lots of things about someone. If she motions to contribute on a date in that initial phase (even as seemingly fake one), he could say "Thanks, that's great but no, since I asked you out, it's my treat. (smile) You can buy me lunch some time. That's cool that the guy pays if he's asking her out, and the gal chips in to some degree when they're otherwise going out, right?" Of course, depending on how he feels about the 'chase' at that point (to garner interest, not necessary pzzy!) -- he may wisely choose not to go so far right then and be more suave by bring up the topic about guys & girls on dates in general at another point in time.
 woodnymph4
Joined: 2/15/2016
Msg: 569
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 10:49:27 AM

Whatever it is that you want, and ideally expect things to be, start from there. Don't set things up so that you get what you want, and then after you get benefits, you want the dynamic to change, what kind of crap is that? OP let 10 whole dates (and sex) happen without uttering a word, and then he wants to change the equation. Do you seriously think OP was gonna let 10 dates (and so sex) happen without saying anything? Nope! Nope! Nope! He got what he wanted and now wants to balance out the equation.


I think this is kinda wrong. The OP asked a valid question. It's not like all of us are seasoned daters with 25 years under our belt of date after date after date. The OP was enjoying dating this lady, 10 dates in and asked a perfectly valid question. He's not changing the dynamic, what "dynamic"? They are dating, learning about each other, feeling their way and yup, he admitted they had sex, so what.

By other's logic, if he has set the "dynamics" of the dating relationship up by paying for all 10 dates, then he should continue to do so...forever. Buy the engagement ring, pay for their home, buy all the food, support her 100% because - he set up that "dynamic" by paying for the first 10 dates. Does this make sense? When does "equal" partnership come into play? When does "share" come into play? When does "we" come into play?

And really, if women are so damn smart how come they can't figure out "oh geez, he's paid for the last 10 dates, maybe I should treat him to dinner and a movie". Even the OP's lady bucked up for drinks and just this little gesture made the OP feel great about their budding relationship.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 8/14/2015
Msg: 570
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 10:59:42 AM

Don't start paying for everything every single time, and then resent someone for not offering to pay or not paying. If you intended it to be a shared financial venture, you should have presented that from a very beginning, instead of enjoying the other benefits and then wondering when she will contribute financially.


I get what you're saying here, it's along the lines of doing something (at work or wherever) for a while and then having someone tell
you you've been doing it wrong or that they hate that you do that.

But is there no point where personal responsibility or even integrity kick in and you say to yourself "I think I'll pick up the tab today"
or "I think I'll get tickets to such and such and see if his nibs wants to go" or do you just expect him to say he wants you to pay the tab
or come out and ask what is your timetable for chipping in or sharing expenses on dates.

First date notwithstanding, I'm wondering at what point or what date do you question the dynamic or do you just assume if he wants
to change things he will?

I'd be comfortable with someone going all out to see to all my needs without reciprocating somehow. I mean other than him getting
to enjoy my charming self of course.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 8/14/2015
Msg: 571
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 11:01:28 AM
^^should be uncomfortable with someone going all out, for some reason I can't edit.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 572
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 11:51:30 AM

I get what you're saying here, it's along the lines of doing something (at work or wherever) for a while and then having someone tell
you you've been doing it wrong or that they hate that you do that.

That's where I disagree in classic circumstances, in the beginning dates. If the guy is asking her out, and he's wanting to pay, that shouldn't imply that he's always going to pay for everything under all circumstances. In the intro phase, he's Asking Her Out. It shouldn't be implied that if he's discontent on date #10 after sleeping together and being in another gear, that he was not really wanting to pay in the beginning.

I would say Belle's POV more applies once they're past the phase of the guy chasing her to ask to go out with him, which usually won't last past the first few dates. He doesn't want to keep piling it on when he's not even asking her out, even if he wouldn't mind it at all either way -- because it can set the wrong tone of Expectations if done for too long. I agree he should think ahead, and not get too comfortable with it so much... but at the same time, women aren't pets or children.

In OP's situation, it was her belief of "what should be done" that 'early' in their dating phase, when it wasn't even early. So I don't think it was so much the tone he set. A gal like that would have been turned off if he did it once things got established (like sex) after date #4/5, and I think it would have been more apt to go Bust, rather than later on around #10.

I think the "tone setting mistake" has its effects, don't get me wrong. But also the Whole Dating Scene sets one's expectations, not just the guy paying a few whole dates once past the initial chasing/asking-her-out phase.
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 573
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 11:53:53 AM

we are the most important person in our world,


Some people take that notion to the ridiculous extreme.
See "diva", "queen", "princess", etc. for women, and whatever equivalent names for men with similar attitudes.


Show me someone who chooses to date a crook, and i'll show you someone who's an opportunist. Risk takers feel confined by those who play it safe, people who feel uncomfortable around a risk taker who can pull them into the risk just for being around them.


Does "risk-taking" have to involve criminal activity?
"Adrenaline junkies" are risk takers as opposed to couch potatoes, but their adrenaline rush activities can be completely legal, if not completely safe.


sometimes, we don't admit it to ourselves b/c we can't see it--we think our way is the right way.


Well, it usually is.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 574
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 12:38:09 PM

And by your logic, he has been doing the giving (I'm only guessing because you haven't stated what you have put forth so far) and you would then expect him to be like this, umm, forever?


As far as the princesses who feel that dating means getting free meals, free entertainment and free transportation every time without any reciprocation ever, I never hear them talk about long term relationships that were totally free. They seem to date someone a few times, then it's on to the next fat wallet when a guy starts to hesitate to pay for everything all of the time. I haven't heard any of them say "I dated a wonderful guy for 4 years, and not once did I ever have to open my wallet to pay for anything. Everything was free to me the entire time. It was all paid for by Mr. Doesn't Mind Spending Money On Me." Guys get bored with entitled princesses pretty quickly.
 Blackwood85
Joined: 5/20/2013
Msg: 575
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 2:02:19 PM

If you do just want opp-sex friends -- then outside an isolated occasion, if you're going out 1-on-1 with the male who you would even slightly prefer as just a friend and aim to be suspended in that -- you don't let him repeatedly pay your way. Only let him pick you up & pay for it all Repeatedly if you Want him. Otherwise, you're inadvertently leading him on. Even though not much sympathy is to be had for him, because he's laying the groundwork To Be led on one way or another, it's to avoid drama. If wanting to be just-friends is to avoid potential drama -- Same Goes With Him Picking you up and Paying Your Way on ALL Dates he wants with you! :)


This.

I work with four females, I consider them all friends, we treat each other for lunch sometimes and sometimes we'll buy each other snacks if one of us go to the exchange for example I bought one of my friends a bag of skinny popcorn which she loves. It surprised her but she appreciated the gesture. But I also know where we stand there isn't any leading on.

I still stand by the idea of just "stop ****ing paying" people do a lot of shit they don't really want to do because of tradition and it's a habit. So they complain when it's a easily fixable solution.
 BelleAtlantic
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 576
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 2:12:26 PM

^^^^ This man sounds like a lovely man - intelligent, generous, accommodating, caring, kind, etc. He seems to enjoy going out of his way to please you. What have you done for him? Other than the coffee? How have you "given" of yourself like he has with you? And I don't mean money, cash. And by your logic, he has been doing the giving (I'm only guessing because you haven't stated what you have put forth so far) and you would then expect him to be like this, umm, forever?


Let me just say that no man will continue to extend himself if he were not getting what he wants out of it. For now, my company, my conversation, my availability, my lack of drama is good enough. He met someone with whom he can speak of things the general population does not understand, who understands his line of work as it's similar to mine, who is interested in delving into territory he knows well, and we share many similarities culturally speaking. He is doing what he is supposed to do in our culture, allow the man to provide, protect, and profess.........

Whatever it takes to get it, it takes to keep it.

So we'll talk tomorrow about what he sees happening between us, and depending on the words he chooses to employ, it will tell me everything I need to know and what my next step is. So far, he has answered any and all questions I've asked, and they were no piece of cake.


So there are people who act like whipped dogs..doormats. good to know, start the way you want to finish.

And there are people who have no idea what a gentleman looks or sounds like.


He CAN find out -- especially if he's smooth in flowing conversation, just as to learn about lots of things about someone. If she motions to contribute on a date in that initial phase (even as seemingly fake one), he could say "Thanks, that's great but no, since I asked you out, it's my treat. (smile) You can buy me lunch some time. That's cool that the guy pays if he's asking her out, and the gal chips in to some degree when they're otherwise going out, right?" Of course, depending on how he feels about the 'chase' at that point (to garner interest, not necessary pzzy!) -- he may wisely choose not to go so far right then and be more suave by bring up the topic about guys & girls on dates in general at another point in time.


My point is that we all have mouths and should be communicating. There was a gentleman who told me straight away that I'm getting the tickets (for our second date), and he was going to cover dinner. Just like that, no muss no fuss. Granted, I never developed romantic interest for him, but I didn't fuss about paying for the tickets, I bought them. He got the tickets for our 3rd date, and after we had agreed I would cover dinner, he decided to cover it as well. In the end, by our 5th date, he had a few drinks too many and nibbled on my ear, and I decided I didn't want to deal with a future patient. I expressed that our outings thereafter would not include alcohol, and he decided alcohol over me, I don't blame him, lmao.

If you fear losing someone because of being honest, that wasn't the person for you, so speak up. You gonna wait for someone to form an impression of you for a period of time, to then start being honest about how you feel? That's deceit.


I think this is kinda wrong. The OP asked a valid question. It's not like all of us are seasoned daters with 25 years under our belt of date after date after date. The OP was enjoying dating this lady, 10 dates in and asked a perfectly valid question. He's not changing the dynamic, what "dynamic"? They are dating, learning about each other, feeling their way and yup, he admitted they had sex, so what.


No, the point is that he WAITED to get what he wanted, to then open his mouth about financial contribution in her part. He knew that if he brought it up to her earlier, he might have nix his chances of getting laid. You see? Yes, it is deceitful to wait 10 dates to bring it up something you've been meaning to address from a very beginning, but your self-interest got in the way of your doing that earlier huh.


By other's logic, if he has set the "dynamics" of the dating relationship up by paying for all 10 dates, then he should continue to do so...forever. Buy the engagement ring, pay for their home, buy all the food, support her 100% because - he set up that "dynamic" by paying for the first 10 dates. Does this make sense? When does "equal" partnership come into play? When does "share" come into play? When does "we" come into play?


Wait a second, you are mixing dating expenses, with fully supporting someone in all aspects. One does not imply the other, that you pay for dating expenses does not mean that you are supporting her financially. Dating is dating, and living together, getting a home and the rest of the horse and carriage are a whole different ball game.

When does "equal" partnership come into play? When both sit down, lay their expectations of each other, and both are getting what they want and expect from the relationship. The problem with the word "equal" is that it implies splitting things into specific "tit for tat" categories, and that's not how the cookie crumbles. Even in the work place, you have a list of responsibilities to carry out for the salary you are assigned, does it make that list finite and absolute? nope, you have to do the whole "and other duties as assigned", which could be 3 times more daunting than the previous list. What are you going to do? go to your boss and ask that he/she provide you with a specific list of what they expect from you for a day, a week, a month, a year for the salary you agreed to, so you can assign a price point for each duty? That's nonsense.

When does common sense come into play?


And really, if women are so damn smart how come they can't figure out "oh geez, he's paid for the last 10 dates, maybe I should treat him to dinner and a movie". Even the OP's lady bucked up for drinks and just this little gesture made the OP feel great about their budding relationship.


No one said she couldn't figure anything out................he set it up in a way that implied he was gonna take care of dating expenses, and since he didn't say anything earlier, she's not going to upset the balance when everything seems to be going well. If I had to make a list of all dates that went south as soon as I paid for something, we'd be here a while. Taking away a man's essential inherent/traditional role and emasculating him as a consequence leaves a bad taste when someone who considers it their duty to provide, to show a woman that he can take care of her.

Man, we're so smart, we give you enough rope so you can hang yourself.........lmao


But is there no point where personal responsibility or even integrity kick in and you say to yourself "I think I'll pick up the tab today"
or "I think I'll get tickets to such and such and see if his nibs wants to go" or do you just expect him to say he wants you to pay the tab
or come out and ask what is your timetable for chipping in or sharing expenses on dates.


The problem with that statement is that it assume the other party lacks integrity or personal responsibility as you mention. Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, not everyone is experienced, and too many people are too afraid to mess things up with any little change they make. When you're afraid to speak up and you wait too long, the risk is far greater before there is a history of investments from both parties.

There is also culture to take into account. In mine, the man is supposed to take care of everything dating-wise, and in a live-in situation, he is supposed to take care of most expenses while leaving her very little to be responsible for, if anything. He doesn't get to question her expenses, her salary, or what she does with her money, he does not support her, he supports the household, she takes care of herself, her personal expenses, etc.

Tomorrow, I am paying for both movie tickets because I bought a packet of tickets months ago at a discounted price, so no reason for him to pay, when I already have it. He is also not paying for my admission to the museum, I have an expired voucher to that museum which I can redeem toward my admission. So he is solely covering dinner tomorrow, and his admission to the museum. Yes, I can allow him to pay for it all, but why do that when I have a way of working out so that he doesn't spend as much money?

I'm not thinking about it as having personal responsibility or integrity, I'm thinking that I'd like to make use of what I have, rather than making him spend money. Same thing if he has car troubles, yeah, I can have him figure it out on his own, or I can make a few phone calls if I myself can't figure it out, and have it fixed in no time. We all contribute to our dates/relationships in our own way that have nothing to do with finances.


That's where I disagree in classic circumstances, in the beginning dates. If the guy is asking her out, and he's wanting to pay, that shouldn't imply that he's always going to pay for everything under all circumstances. In the intro phase, he's Asking Her Out. It shouldn't be implied that if he's discontent on date #10 after sleeping together and being in another gear, that he was not really wanting to pay in the beginning.


If he expected her to contribute all on her own, by lets say the 5th, 6th date, don't wait until the 10th date after you've gotten laid, to say something. That's what I'm saying.

He decided after date#10, that he wants her to contribute. Why didn't he bring this up before getting laid? That would have been more genuine, than bringing it up after you think you've gotten your investment's worth.


because it can set the wrong tone of Expectations if done for too long. I agree he should think ahead, so when approaching the 4th/5th date where the chasing/formal-ask-to-go-out has dissipated, he should work things to have her contribute within her comfortable means (from what he gleaned that would be).


Exactly, open your mouth before things get more um......intimate, rather than wait and hold out to say something.


As far as the princesses who feel that dating means getting free meals, free entertainment and free transportation every time without any reciprocation ever, I never hear them talk about long term relationships that were totally free. They seem to date someone a few times, then it's on to the next fat wallet when a guy starts to hesitate to pay for everything all of the time. I haven't heard any of them say "I dated a wonderful guy for 4 years, and not once did I ever have to open my wallet to pay for anything. Everything was free to me the entire time. It was all paid for by Mr. Doesn't Mind Spending Money On Me." Guys get bored with entitled princesses pretty quickly.


Here it goes......................I was in a long term relationship for 8.5 years in which he paid for 90% of everything. Yes, I paid for gifts, I paid for hotels, I paid for plays, I paid for anything he couldn't afford at any point in time, and sometimes because what I wanted to do was just simply out of his per-determined budget. He made 5 times my salary, it was only fair at the time, and I was very young, didn't have a career yet. It is within that relationship that I finished school, went through lots of jobs before falling into my first full-time job, moved out and got my own place, etc. It was never expected of me to carry my own weight in paying for things dating-wise, I was still working on becoming who I am today.

And to this day, if he were to to ask that we go anywhere, he would pay for it. Even now that I am a professional, have more degrees than he does, and could make more money than he does if I wanted to.
 woodnymph4
Joined: 2/15/2016
Msg: 577
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 2:37:27 PM
IMO, the OP didn't wait until he got laid to b!tch about always having to pay. What if they had sex on the first date? Many do. I don't think him getting laid had a damn thing to do with his questioning when was it her time to chip in. IMO.

As for how you date ^^^ and think of the dating world and how men will support you, I guess it's a good gig if you can get it. Lol. I find it mind boggling to even respond to the above.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 578
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History
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 2:50:00 PM

No, the point is that he WAITED to get what he wanted, to then open his mouth about financial contribution in her part. He knew that if he brought it up to her earlier, he might have nix his chances of getting laid. You see? Yes, it is deceitful to wait 10 dates to bring it up something you've been meaning to address from a very beginning, but your self-interest got in the way of your doing that earlier huh.


It's also deceitful to not tell a man that you're not into him while eating on his dime, but people still do it. I don't think he was deceitful at all. I think he was hoping she was a normal person and then got disappointed.


No one said she couldn't figure anything out................he set it up in a way that implied he was gonna take care of dating expenses, and since he didn't say anything earlier, she's not going to upset the balance when everything seems to be going well. If I had to make a list of all dates that went south as soon as I paid for something, we'd be here a while. Taking away a man's essential inherent/traditional role and emasculating him as a consequence leaves a bad taste when someone who considers it their duty to provide, to show a woman that he can take care of her.


It wasn't going well.
 salty_blumist
Joined: 11/26/2012
Msg: 579
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/4/2016 3:32:07 PM
I don't think it's universal in any & all circumstances, that if a gal is into you, you don't have to spend a cent on her. It's circumstantial. For instance, if you ask her out to dinner on an Initial date, and you're wanting a raw split -- she can understandably lose interest without entitlement. You asked her out on an initial date. I think the POV you present in it's universal standing is more with college kids living on/around campus hanging out where guys (nor many people) aren't expected to have much bank to work with... or a gal being Clearly ga-ga about a guy, chasing Him and and/or asking him out. But picking up the tab? A gal can lose interest in many situations & circumstances -- with either the Entitlement complex, or not really having it.

norwegianguy456,

Your mistaken. You see, if a woman or man has an attitude and makes any issue of money, then their priorities are messed up. Someone who has humility and is a genuinely nice thoughtful person towards others would be able to appreciate the greater possibilities. People who make issue's with money under such circumstances are just displaying how dating in their view is a psychological game off one up-manship. If a woman were to approach me and express what seemed like sincere interest in me and asked me to join her for dinner, and if I liked the vibe I got from her, chances are I would accept on the grounds I just wanted to get to know her better. It wouldn't matter to me if she stated she would rather go dutch in advance, or even if it was decided at the moment of receiving the dinner bill to go dutch. I would just be greatful of the opportunity she presented me with. get it now?
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 580
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/5/2016 12:03:33 PM

If a woman were to approach me and express what seemed like sincere interest in me and asked me to join her for dinner, and if I liked the vibe I got from her, chances are I would accept on the grounds I just wanted to get to know her better. It wouldn't matter to me if she stated she would rather go dutch in advance, or even if it was decided at the moment of receiving the dinner bill to go dutch. I would just be greatful of the opportunity she presented me with. get it now?

Yeah I agree, that's a gal asking you out -- a different story, due to different social expectations/rulez. Switch gender roles, and you'll see something different:

If I were to approach a woman and expressed interest in her and asked her to join me for dinner, and if she liked the vibe she got from me, chances are she would accept on the grounds I'd like to get to know her better. It wouldn't matter to her if I stated that I would rather go dutch in advance, or even if I decided at the moment of receiving the dinner bill to go dutch. She would just be grateful of the opportunity I presented her with. Get it now? Good look taking that POV to the dating scene beyond high school or college. :)

My point is that we all have mouths and should be communicating. .... If you fear losing someone because of being honest, that wasn't the person for you, so speak up.

Again, it's not about being dishonest one iota. And there's nothing to communicate if you asked them out, and you don't mind paying. For YOU certain things communicated may work just fine, but not for Many other women. Say a guy would only want to settle down with a girl who is willing to give BJs. Should he say that on the first date? "Hey, do you go down on guys? I need that. We all have mouths, and we should be communicating about this."

No, the point is that he WAITED to get what he wanted, to then open his mouth about financial contribution in her part.

Not so much though. He was NOT waiting in the early part of it. He wasn't thinking about it, mulling over it, and really wanting her to pay -- no. That's the point. But after things settled in with them, at some point, he wanted her to want to contribute, and was going to err on the side of caution to not jump on it too early. If he did what that one guy did in your example looking toward a 2nd date -- it would have fell apart and a 2nd date would have never been had. His issue was not because he set the wrong tone early, is my point. The OP could have brought this forth a couple dates earlier, but the point is, him taking more time actually HELPED, not hurt it (she realized going into date #11 that it is a good idea to at least contribute).

If he expected her to contribute all on her own, by lets say the 5th, 6th date, don't wait until the 10th date after you've gotten laid, to say something. That's what I'm saying.

He didn't expect or even want her to contribute for everything all on her own. That's never been the issue. The issue is her Never contributing anything. Not realized until many dates passed, so he brought it up when it Did bother him. The only argument was that he could have done it a bit earlier to save himself some grief if it started actually bothering him around date #8 and not wait until date #10. However, his be-patient mode worked out for him. Again, he was never looking or desiring for her to pay halves on all dates. That's the point.

It's also deceitful to not tell a man that you're not into him while eating on his dime, but people still do it.

Yup -- good point. Or even more, and applicable to Belle -- don't spend time with the guy (or gal) when you're not into them and they're into you -- regardless of any bill paying.

I don't think he was deceitful at all. I think he was hoping she was a normal person and then got disappointed.

I agree. There was no deceit. It's not a POV of only wanting: (1) go-dutch-on-all-dates-from-date-1-until-last, or (2) gal-paid-for-by-guy-100%-all-the-time.
 Iphegeneia
Joined: 2/24/2016
Msg: 581
who pays
Posted: 3/5/2016 5:54:29 PM
I always go half. But usually the guys insist on paying. Even then, I only let the guy pay if I really like him and can see myself meeting him again. Otherwise, I don't like the feeling of letting someone pay when I have no intention of seeing them again. I find that completely wrong. I recently found out it's because I have a very strong Libran influence in my chart. I end up having sleepless nights if things seem unbalanced. So I would rather spare myself the paranoia of bad karma.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 582
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History
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 1:40:39 AM
I've touched upon this so many times. Arg. That people always deteriorate this topic into an issue of money or equality, but that this framework doesn't quite give a clear understanding. Agree with me or not, I'd expect at least some to consider this thinking more than I ever see done.

So look...10 dates, paid for by the man. By that time (actually much earlier) I'd think that she isn't really interested in me, in us getting to know each other, in being with me, and for the purposes of a possible relationship. Or I'd think that she has one of those askew* ideas about the genders or dating, as in she doesn't need a man but he needs her and she's doing him a favor, or that it's all about him needing to prove himself but it isn't necessary for him to get to know her, or she is willing to benefit from and condone a kind of powerplay along these lines.

This is important because I always say that it's about your motivations and intentions, your attitude about such things - If I ask you out on a date and you accept, your reason for accepting better be because you're interested in getting to know me and letting me get to know you, for the purposes of a possible relationship...not because I'm supposed to woo you in a one-way manner, and you're just giving me a chance, and I'm supposed to make you interested in me after the fact, and the dating is all about whether or not you approve of me eventually as if you are already vetted.

If I ask you out, and you accept, and me paying for first dates is the expected norm for you...then that strongly implies that you didn't accept my date invitation because you were interested in me and want for us to get to know each other for a possible relationship. It implies instead that you had some other reason and intention while saying "yes" to a date request. I'm not talking about you trying to get free dinner and all that jazz...I'm saying that you don't consider the purpose of going out on a date to be for us to get to know each other and see if we're interested in exploring the possibility of a relationship. If that was your reason, then me paying wouldn't be the expected etiquette for you.

If your attitude is that whoever does the asking is who should be paying...then that strongly implies that your reasons and motivations for dating are not from wanting to get to know each other for the purposes of exploring the possibility of a relationship.

If the expected norm for you as a woman is that you won't ask a man out in the first place, and that men should do the asking...then that strongly implies that you're not really looking for someone good and real for a relationship, because you are limiting yourself - a man observing this so-called "traditional" approach to dating does not necessarily correlate with that man having good character, and in fact invites those men who are players and liars who're willing to fill the void left by the men who aren't willing to encourage and cater to this self-defeating practice. You are looking for the man who will ask you out first, instead of a certain kind of man otherwise...you are looking for the man who pays for first dates, instead of a certain kind of man...and this intrinsically increases the chance that you'll date the kind who you probably say that you don't want while cutting down on the number of men who you probably say that you do want. Therefore, you probably don't really want a certain kind of man for a certain kind of relationship, and instead you're looking for a certain ritual and set of gestures which, again, do not intrinsically correlate with certain character yet invites those willing to play that game - it's pretty easy to court and woo and win a woman over, to be charming, seem to be someone you're not, even fall in love and be together for a few years until it mysteriously turns into disaster...people do it all the time in all other areas of life...all the while lying through your azz, when you look for women who don't put much thought into it and expect certain predictable procedures.

If your explanation or defense is to say that you as a woman will "get him back" later on...then you are assuming prematurely that there will be a third and fourth date when in fact there may not be, and this, again, proves that your intentions are not for you both to get to know each other (during the initial dating). It shows that you don't even understand that on a basic level. A second or third date may never even happen, and you shouldn't pretend to decide that on your own for him and play the "gimme a hamburger now and I'll pay you back on Tuesday" game before you've both even had a chance to decide whether or not you want to see each other on Tuesday.

So, as you see...apart from all the mealy-mouthed people who know that their purposes in dating renders this inapplicable to them in the first place yet will talk the game which defends the one while belittling the other...money and equality are part of it, but it's not really about those. It's about your intentions, motivations, and your attitude and maturity concerning such things.

* Oh how funny. Type 'askew' into google, and the screen gets askewed.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 583
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 4:04:53 AM
"It's about your intentions, motivations, and your attitude and maturity concerning such things."


OK......but this still doesn't clarify, Mr. Drinks.....Are you paying for our dinner date or am I? :D
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