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 Lasthookbringsme
Joined: 11/8/2015
Msg: 584
who paysPage 24 of 58    (18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58)

This man sounds like a lovely man - intelligent, generous, accommodating, caring, kind, etc. He seems to enjoy going out of his way to please you. What have you done for him? Other than the coffee? How have you "given" of yourself like he has with you?


She gave her time, effort, interest, and care. What more should she do?

It's evident that he cares about her (and she, him). Something you don't seem to appreciate when it happens to other women.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 585
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 6:12:25 AM
^^"She gave her time, effort, interest, and care. What more should she do?"

Likewise, the guy gave his time, interest, and care. What more should he do?
 Lasthookbringsme
Joined: 11/8/2015
Msg: 586
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 6:57:10 AM

Well geez Eternity,



If she isn't paying for sex for the dinners he gifts her, she's a gold digger. If she accepts his dinner and f/sucks him at some point during the course of dating him, she's a vapid whore. (Last I checked, dinner isn't an invitation/payment for sex.)

There's no such thing as generosity and appreciation exchanged between two people in 'Nymph's world, unless the 'nymph decides what those parameters are in _everybody_else's_ relationships.
 Lasthookbringsme
Joined: 11/8/2015
Msg: 587
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 6:58:34 AM

^^"She gave her time, effort, interest, and care. What more should she do?"

Likewise, the guy gave his time, interest, and care. What more should he do?


Knee-jerk reaction.

Nowhere in Belle's dialogue did she complain about this man NOT doing enough.

From what I've read, they seem to appreciate each other.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 588
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 7:10:34 AM
If a date isn't a "Sure thing", then I suspect like all unsure things in life....one should only gamble what one can afford. The more creative a person is, the more affordable options they can consider. But then, i'm one of those who would seek out a restaurant others haven't tried before, so someone who wishes to brag Monday morning about going to a place others would easily recognize by brand name...probably aren't going to date me.

but then, I think a relationship is good when a personality connection is made, regardless of cash spent. I think the "money spent" fades into the background, when you find that connection. Maybe that's one of many reasons why I rarely get dates--i'm looking for something specific and won't take any gamble that isn't a good one. other people are willing to gamble more in life, and if that works for them, that's fine. and I don't mean to measure that just in end results, I mean some people just like to take risks.

still, I guess if women have the advantage in life of getting free meals, I guess I get the advantage of being stronger and getting paid more and getting more general respect in life...perhaps not a bad deal after all, given a choice of stereotypes :)
 woodnymph4
Joined: 2/15/2016
Msg: 589
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 7:40:23 AM
OMG, you are one stupid woman. Out of respect to Whiskey, I'll leave out the other words.

I said none of the bullshyt you just made up again in the above post. You spend a lot of time digging in a thesaus looking for big words in an attempt to woo us into a false sense of "oh, look at her, she's so smart" instead, work on your reading comprehension.

I don't care if someone hasn't sex on the first date or the 20th date. I don't care. Last I checked, dinner isn't an invitation/payment for sex either and I never said that either you idiot, again you make up shyt. That mental illness thing again?

The thing is, you think all you have to do is show up. HE has to do ot all, gifts, dinners out, more gifts, compliment how you don't sweat much for a chubby girl, buy you more stuff...and somewhere down the line you'll bake a cookie with a hint of lavender. Apparently this works for you after two baby daddy's and a few relationships. Carry on. You date how you want to, no more one has said differently.

This whole post was about one guy who posed a question...they've dated 10 times, had sex, wants to keep dating and turn it into a relationship - he always pays, when is it her turn? According to Belle, in her culture, he will pay until he dies. According to entitled princess, he will pay forever because she just has to show up, grace him with her company, she will cook the odd meal, and dependent upon how many gifts and meals he provides..it may turn into a relationship and ring better be huge, she earned it.

According to normal people, they go out, he probably pays for the first few...then it slides into a happy balance of each contributing where no one has to question the other's generosity and appreciation. And this continues while the relationship builds (or ends) and yes, sex is probably thrown there whenever the TWO of them decide. I think the vast majority of us on here are normal people and date like this. The majority of us here are aware of our "worth" and what we bring to the table, we won't settle, we have pride, we have self respect and most of us have been around the block a time or two and know what works for us, what is important and what is Bullshyt. Normal people want to be treated with kindness and respect and the majority of us normal folks treat others in the same way. I cannot fathom being thought of as an entitled princess or high maintenance or better than or "I'm worth more". Normal people, I like normal people.
 Aprilovesrosasblancas
Joined: 2/24/2016
Msg: 590
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 8:35:18 AM
All the male animals court the females some of them sing, dance, whistle, spread their wings, etc., But the SMART and ASTUTE ones, invent other things to win the love of the female.
The courtship is ALWAYS initiated by the male.
Sometimes the MALE competes with other males to gain the female.


The moral of this (fact)story is:

Even the animal females need to be courted..... before.......ANYTHING.!!!

______________________________________________________

Things are as they are and no one can change the inner nature of the female animal Or.....woman.!


Have a nice Sunday.!!
 Lasthookbringsme
Joined: 11/8/2015
Msg: 591
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 8:52:42 AM

Yes you are. Just like every single woman on this forum


If I weren't single, I wouldn't be on here. If I have called a moratorium on a serious relationship, there has to be very good reason why (and that reason is none of your business). I date and enjoy myself based on the arrangements my dates and I make, which such arrangements are for us (not you) to decide.

I decide if I am like everybody else on POF, which I am not, then I am. Nobody is just like each other in terms of very specific dating, dating patterns, people, or even what they want and seek out of this. If it makes you feel better lumping yourself and everybody else together because you can't be bothered to focus on your own dating/relationship problems, so be it.

No two princesses nor two hags are the same.

As far as my "not so good with relationships/marriage" thing:

I am very good at relating with others in the sense that I know my limits and limitations, which is my own lesson in relating to others (and not something for anybody else to dictate). I decide what's good for myself, and what is not.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 592
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 12:01:52 PM

If I ask you out, and you accept, and me paying for first dates is the expected norm for you...then that strongly implies that you didn't accept my date invitation because you were interested in me and want for us to get to know each other for a possible relationship. It implies instead that you had some other reason and intention while saying "yes" to a date request.

Drinkthesun, I agree with much of what you write on this -- but I will say that I don't entirely agree with this isolated part (first date when guy asking out). I think in a more advanced, civilized society, that would be the case if he's Not asking to Take her out. In several generations that may be the case. But if the guy reaches out to ask the girl out, the default expectations are that he's going to pay in most circumstances. This stems from both the guy being expected to make a move to ask a girl out initially (in classical/common situations)... and historically, women not being in a financial situation to be able to comfortably pay for anything anyway. I Definitely think it should Always be that if the guy asks to Take her out, or it's a situation where he's wanting a chance and she's willing to give it -- yes, he pays. Or if she's financially not sound and just has enough to make ends meet -- it's not so much about courtship, but about feasibility/compatibility that he's to pay not just initially, but for a very solid majority of the outings in general. But in a general common ask-a-girl-out situation, where he's not pleading for a chance, but just making the move to go out on a date between two interested parties to get the ball rolling -- the Expectations in society, is that he's asking to Take her out.

For the gal, if she clearly asks the guy out, as far as Expectations are concerned, she shouldn't have any lack of respect on any level if the guy motions to split the bill, or says you got this since you asked me out, I'll get the next one. He didn't ask her out, she did. She can't play the "this is how things work between guys & girls," because asking the guy out didn't fit that mold. Now, if she asks to Take the guy out, then she Certainly shouldn't have any lack of respect if he "lets" her go by what she said. There should be no gray-area there. A guy who would insist on paying after she asked to Take him out would have low self esteem, instead of saying something like "... and I'll take you out next time," if the date went well.

I don't see it as the girl interested in something free if he asked her out. I mean, she Could be not that into him but the assumptive he-asked-me-out=take-me-out could lean her saying Yes where she'd otherwise say No even if she's in financially decent standing. But one can't assume that. Remember, both parties are sizing themselves up. Flawed assumptions or not, people generalize when it comes to first dates, and that's never going to change. If the guy asks her out, even without ensuring it's to Take her out, if he's going to want to split the bill -- it's assumed he's lacking interest, not financially in good standing, or just socially out in left field when dating to many.

According to normal people, they go out, he probably pays for the first few...then it slides into a happy balance of each contributing where no one has to question the other's generosity and appreciation.

I totally agree with this, yes. That's the Normal line of thinking/expectations. He probably pays for the first few since he asked her out and motioned for the first few dates. Courting only lasts so long, usually coupled by the guy asking the gal out or something along those lines where he's leading the way. But after some dates have been had and they're in another gear where they're starting to see each other, the modern Norm is that the gal will want to contribute within her comfortable means throughout.

If I weren't single, I wouldn't be on here.

You've been on here (the forum section) while taken before! Nothing wrong with that. :)

I date and enjoy myself based on the arrangements my dates and I make, which such arrangements are for us (not you) to decide.

Well, sure, but I don't think that's been an issue -- to decide on things. To judge? Well, yeah, we're all judging what's kosher in general and what's not, by default. And what should be, etc. And you have expressed disdain toward a guy not paying the whole thing -- and correct me if I'm wrong, implied that such disdain applies when he's not even asking her out (further dates ahead).
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 593
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 7:50:53 PM
norwegianguy456 :

...that would be the case if he's Not asking to Take her out. In several generations that may be the case. But if the guy reaches out to ask the girl out, the default expectations are that he's going to pay in most circumstances.

I thought that it was clear that what I was saying included that if I ask a girl out, it's because I'm interested in her and I'm asking her if she's interested in me...interested in the possibility of a relationship with someone, and interested in me in an initial rudimentary sense as much as applies when we don't know each other...so I am not asking her if I can TAKE her out.

I'm asking her if she'd like to engage in that mutual get-to-know process, and for a particular purpose. Which is what the dating is for.

What I said also included that if her thinking is about who-asks, default expectations, and someone TAKING another out instead of what I explained, then that is what it is, as I explained. People like me don't play those TAKING someone out games when it comes to first-dating. We're in another headspace altogether, and are all about something else altogether. If, to her, I am asking to TAKE her out, then if she says yes she has a different motivation and attitude altogether, and obviously her purpose isn't to engage in that mutual getting-to-know process because of mutual interest. She shouldn't say yes because she's letting me take her out, but she should say yes because she's also interested in me. That's what her "yes" should mean, unless she's lying to me.

Aprilovesrosasblancas :

All the male animals court the females some of them sing, dance, whistle, spread their wings, etc., But the SMART and ASTUTE ones, invent other things to win the love of the female.
The courtship is ALWAYS initiated by the male.
Sometimes the MALE competes with other males to gain the female.


The moral of this (fact)story is:

Even the animal females need to be courted..... before.......ANYTHING.!!!

______________________________________________________

Things are as they are and no one can change the inner nature of the female animal Or.....woman.!

I'm glad that I'm not an animal, but a human being. I'm glad that I'm compelled to live differently than animals in many respects, because I am a human being. I'm glad that, as a human being, I don't pretend that I have no control over who I am or use facts about the rest of the animal kingdom as an excuse to not put much thought into what makes sense and is appropriate.

It is expected that we'd get this particular kind of response from someone who has similar attitudes when it comes to things like religion and evolution, and other things. This is not getting off of the subject, but instead the context and dynamic here will help give a clear picture on the present topic and show why some thinking is bad and should be abandoned -

Some of the goofy-assed arguments against the theory of biological evolution, and on various subjects of ethics and morality, that we've seen in here and elsewhere, include the combination of two things: A non-factual characterization of nature (the animal kingdom in particular), and using that inaccurate mischaracterization to make it seem logical for justifying various idiocies about how the human world should operate or be structured. For examples...

In the fight against homosexuality, it is claimed that it isn't natural and doesn't exist in the animal kingdom. But this isn't true about the animal kingdom, and in addition even if it were that shouldn't be used to decide how we should live.

On various issues of morals and ethics, the bogus construct called "Social Darwinism" is propped up to claim that Evolution is about us living like the animals and having a dog-eat-dog world (equally bogus), in order to: give a wrong picture of what evolution is about; to somehow prove that evolution can't be true; and to somehow show that we need something more (religion) and not 'believe' in evolution, else we fall into chaos.

People also talk this the-rest-of-the-animal-kingdom jazz when trying to show logical justification for not being monogamous and claiming that somehow it should be natural for all humans, instead of just admitting that they choose it for their own reasons.

And this is all the same thing that's going on here in your post. Let's take a look -

All the male animals court the females some of them sing, dance, whistle, spread their wings

I wonder if that's true. Can you prove that all the males do this, and no females do? Moreover, how is it relevant? Are you a gopher? Or a Vulture? Or a Moose? What kind of person do you want to be, and for what reasons?

But the SMART and ASTUTE ones, invent other things to win the love of the female.

Win the love of the female? If you want to live in such a way that it's only all about the male having to win the love of the female, in the HUMAN world, and that's all there is to it, then do so. But be honest about it and don't use wacky justifications to excuse it.

The courtship is ALWAYS initiated by the male.

This is really quite uninformed. Do you know this about all males? Does it really always happen that way? I happen to know otherwise. I try to know just a little bit more about the rest of nature than this. And again, the most important thing here is...why is it relevant what other animals do?

Sometimes the MALE competes with other males to gain the female.

Something is 'yuck' about this, it seems so 'simpleton' and dingy. Is that really how you want to live as a human? Do you really like describing your dating attitude with this? By the way...one should see the possibility of getting decent males in this way, but not females. If things really were this simple, then we'd end up with females that have been produced with no genetic discrimination, hence increasingly more and more inferior females. But of course, that's not the case because there is a little more to it than all this.

Even the animal females need to be courted..... before.......ANYTHING.!!!

This strongly suggests that it's a powerplay with you...that while you may want something good, along the way you're not afraid to skew things between the genders and benefit from it. Or hide behind it. In the human world, the problem with this thinking is that after the female has been courted and the male has won her, it's not really over because now the female needs to prove herself. Yet because of this mind game it rarely happens. Sizing up the female has become a foregone conclusion. And worse than that, the damage is already done before all of this in the sense that a human male might not even be at the place yet where he knows that he wants her - courting is moot. The female and male still need to get to know each other first to establish if there's a mutual interest and possibility - why would he court when he doesn't know yet if he likes and wants her? But then this very process would still render the idea of one 'courting' (winning) the other moot further still.

Things are as they are and no one can change the inner nature of the female animal Or.....woman.!

Yes, and that says it all. You are what you are, and have no control over who are and how you live. Your hands are clean.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 12/24/2015
Msg: 594
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 8:00:09 PM
I was reading about the mating rituals of sea horses. I love those little guys. They actually go around like they're holding hands (or little fin thingies). But when the babies are born, the male sea horses are outta there. On to a fresh young one, I reckon. Probably the mama got stretch marks.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 595
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 8:11:27 PM
Oh how funny. Let's see who takes the bait. What a hoot.

A saw a show the other night about some monkey group or feline group...and a female was 'ready' but the male wasn't, so she kept harassing him. 'Courted' him, until she 'won' him over. Sometimes the animals are more progressive and sensible than humans.
 TrvstInKarma
Joined: 9/1/2015
Msg: 596
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 8:40:39 PM
To sum the whole thing up: traditionally , the man is supposed to pay. However, it is also OK for the woman to pay. In the end, it's a personal preference. Personally, I lose attraction to a guy if he won't pay for my coffee/meal when we first meet. I personally am more attracted to men who are generous and don't sit there splitting the check with me like they're one of my girlfriends. I will never force a guy to pay for my part or give him attitude, but I will probably lose interest in him and lose attraction. At the same time, a guy might not like it if he has to pay and wants to split the bill with me and might find it cool that I split it with him. He will not hear me complain, but probably not hear from me much again afterwards. Just being honest. And if a guy thinks I'm a gold digger or "dinner whore" - oh well, I don't care about a guy like that either. YMMV.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 12/24/2015
Msg: 597
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 8:45:56 PM

saw a show the other night about some monkey group or feline group...and a female was 'ready' but the male wasn't, so she kept harassing him. 'Courted' him, until she 'won' him over.


Whatever species they were, they were clearly middle aged.
 ginghamgal
Joined: 2/13/2016
Msg: 598
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 9:26:56 PM

To sum the whole thing up: traditionally , the man is supposed to pay. However, it is also OK for the woman to pay. In the end, it's a personal preference. Personally, I lose attraction to a guy if he won't pay for my coffee/meal when we first meet. I personally am more attracted to men who are generous and don't sit there splitting the check with me like they're one of my girlfriends.......


Being generous is a 2 way street. Sometimes I paid the entire bill on a first date because he agreed to go to a place that was closer or more convenient to me. Or I had to reschedule a date and he was very understanding about it. The only time I was disappointed about a man wanting to split a bill 50-50 was when most of the bill was items that he ordered.
 geekgrrrl
Joined: 1/28/2009
Msg: 599
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History
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 11:24:17 PM
TrvstinKarma said:

To sum the whole thing up: traditionally , the man is supposed to pay. However, it is also OK for the woman to pay. In the end, it's a personal preference. Personally, I lose attraction to a guy if he won't pay for my coffee/meal when we first meet. I personally am more attracted to men who are generous and don't sit there splitting the check with me like they're one of my girlfriends. I will never force a guy to pay for my part or give him attitude, but I will probably lose interest in him and lose attraction. At the same time, a guy might not like it if he has to pay and wants to split the bill with me and might find it cool that I split it with him. He will not hear me complain, but probably not hear from me much again afterwards. Just being honest. And if a guy thinks I'm a gold digger or "dinner whore" - oh well, I don't




I totally agree. It's a turn off and very unattractive. I so dislike cheap, selfish men.
 Llove2laughtoo
Joined: 1/11/2016
Msg: 600
who pays
Posted: 3/6/2016 11:54:38 PM

Msg: 608
Traditionally , the man is supposed to pay. Personally, I lose attraction to a guy if he won't pay for my coffee/meal when we first meet. I personally am more attracted to men who are generous and don't sit there splitting the check with me like they're one of my girlfriends. I will never force a guy to pay for my part or give him attitude, but I will probably lose interest in him and lose attraction. At the same time, a guy might not like it if he has to pay and wants to split the bill with me and might find it cool that I split it with him. He will not hear me complain, but probably not hear from me much again afterwards. Just being honest. And if a guy thinks I'm a gold digger or "dinner whore" - oh well, I don't care about a guy like that either.


This is one of those times where I wish our forum comments were plastered all over our profiles for people to read, as they did in the past.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 601
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History
who pays
Posted: 3/7/2016 12:09:29 AM

It's a turn off and very unattractive. I so dislike cheap, selfish men.

And there it is.

Dishonestly characterized as being cheap and selfish. Sliding sideways to distract from what it might really be about.
 woodnymph4
Joined: 2/15/2016
Msg: 602
who pays
Posted: 3/7/2016 5:37:27 AM
^^^^ Exactly


Its a turn off and very unattractive. I so dislike cheap,mselfish men.


And what exactly does it say about women? Unattractive? Selfish? Entitled?
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 603
who pays
Posted: 3/7/2016 6:07:02 AM

To sum the whole thing up: traditionally , the man is supposed to pay. However, it is also OK for the woman to pay. In the end, it's a personal preference. Personally, I lose attraction to a guy if he won't pay for my coffee/meal when we first meet. I personally am more attracted to men who are generous and don't sit there splitting the check with me like they're one of my girlfriends. I will never force a guy to pay for my part or give him attitude, but I will probably lose interest in him and lose attraction. At the same time, a guy might not like it if he has to pay and wants to split the bill with me and might find it cool that I split it with him. He will not hear me complain, but probably not hear from me much again afterwards. Just being honest. And if a guy thinks I'm a gold digger or "dinner whore" - oh well, I don't


Most women have offered to pay something on my first dates / meetings. Even though it may have been just the tip or dessert / drink after I had paid for something else that was more expensive. If a woman loses interest because I had accepted her offer, no sweat off my back. I have no lose interest in dating her. An offer to pay should be genuine. Not some type of "test".


I totally agree. It's a turn off and very unattractive. I so dislike cheap, selfish men.


How does paying for something that YOU ordered make the other person cheap or selfish? LOL.
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 604
who pays
Posted: 3/7/2016 6:14:47 AM
That poor word entitlement gets beat to the ground - I believe people are entitled to many things. :/ That said, simple solution - state in the profile your expectations. Women can say they expect the Man to pay first date, Men can say going POF only. I mean if we can specific height, physical fitness, etc seems easy enough
 TrvstInKarma
Joined: 9/1/2015
Msg: 605
who pays
Posted: 3/7/2016 6:42:06 AM
I'm not going to tell a man what my expectations are, because I don't want someone to pretend to be like my "ideal man" just so they can dupe me (happened before). I let him say and do whatever is natural for him and then make my pick. So I would never say "I expect a guy to pay for the first few dates". I would just observe how he handles it. If he's "cheap", it will reveal itself pretty quickly and based on that (and other things, like how does he treat the wait staff, is he a good kisser, is he complaining about "crazy exes", etc.) I will decide if it's a yay or nay.
 woodnymph4
Joined: 2/15/2016
Msg: 606
who pays
Posted: 3/7/2016 7:12:32 AM
^^^. I think the above is how most of us go about finding out if the guy/gal sitting across from us on date is "right" for us on those first few dates. Karma, everything you listed makes sense (pays, treats wait staff, talk about ex, etc.) and I'd think that most men would add "see how lucky no it takes for her to open her wallet". "First few dates " is how many? I think you should have it figured out by 4 or 6 dates. Hell, Clooney's cut off is 3 dates. Other men must have their own magic number.

And yes Ouija, "entitled" has taken a kicking and is really not the right word.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 607
who pays
Posted: 3/7/2016 7:14:50 AM

...a guy might not like it if he has to pay and wants to split the bill with me and might find it cool that I split it with him. He will not hear me complain, but probably not hear from me much again afterwards.


If you were to go on 50 dinner dates with a guy where he paid the whole bill every time, and on date 51, he mentions something about contributing to the bill, would you lose interest in him, find him suddenly unattractive, and stop all contact with him? Is there any time during dating, where a woman paying for something is not considered an insult to her womanhood?


...traditionally , the man is supposed to pay...


Traditionally, women weren't allowed to vote, own property in her name only, have an executive or any other good paying job, etc. How many of those traditions do women still support, because she wants to be traditional? The whole idea of men paying was because, way back when, it was only men who had money and women didn't. Most women back then aspired to be a housewife and stay-at-home mother who fully relied on her husband for financial security. It's not uncommon now for women to make as much or more than men, but a lot of women still use the "I'm traditional" label.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 608
view profile
History
who pays
Posted: 3/7/2016 8:03:43 AM

I thought that it was clear that what I was saying included that if I ask a girl out, it's because I'm interested in her and I'm asking her if she's interested in me...interested in the possibility of a relationship with someone, and interested in me in an initial rudimentary sense as much as applies when we don't know each other...so I am not asking her if I can TAKE her out.

Well, it may be too early to say you possibly want a relationship when you haven't even had a 1st date with the gal yet -- but whether it is that exactly or not, I understand what you're saying. When you ask the girl out, it's that you Like her in-that-way and want to spend time with her. I think they fully realize that in the vast majority of situations. But by "tradition" (or what's currently done and stems originally from tradition), what you say is assumed, but what's Also assumed is because of that, unless said otherwise, is you want to treat her to it. It's the asking out = asking to take her out. What I was saying was that in future generations, people may make that distinction... but most don't now.

I'm asking her if she'd like to engage in that mutual get-to-know process, and for a particular purpose. Which is what the dating is for.

Yes, I agree. But many are going to assume, unless said otherwise, is that you being the guy are more the contestant, and she's more the panel of judges. I don't like that, don't get me wrong. And gals who believe a guy Should pay for all dates (notably past the first few) are not wanting to think of it that way, even though when the rubber meets the road, it's Very much that angle they believe in. My point is, you should (unfortunately) Expect them to take you asking them out, by default = asking to take them out. Many guys make that distinction by saying they'd like to Take them out sometime. Many guys don't, but when asking them out in standard fashion, it's assumed that's what is to be expected.

If, to her, I am asking to TAKE her out, then if she says yes she has a different motivation and attitude altogether, and obviously her purpose isn't to engage in that mutual getting-to-know process because of mutual interest.

I disagree. When a woman has the very popular assumptive POV that a guy asking her out = asking to take her out, not making that distinction doesn't mean she has a different motivation or attitude about you. It wouldn't be any different than you saying "... Well Sally, I'd like to get to know you better. How 'bout you like me take you out some time?" I don't think many women are going to take THAT vs saying "... Well Sally, I'd like to get to know you better. Would you like to go out some time?" Their mindset's going to be the same. A gal who can't afford getting out of the house too much and has had guys split bills when asking them out may make that distinction, not to run into it again and want that "Take you out" part to be included for peace of mind. But many are going to take it the same way. It's not so much tradition -- it stems from it, and with "everybody's doing it", the presumption's made.

She shouldn't say yes because she's letting me take her out, but she should say yes because she's also interested in me.

I agree. Most aren't going to say yes Because it's your treat. Nerds would have a field day then. Man, if it were only that easy to get a date with Hot Barbaras -- even when she's not-that-interested, but Always says yes because it's my treat. :) But my point is, most gals are going to say yes because they have interest, while at the same time, normally expect you to pay because you asked them out on that 1st date. You can have both -- they don't have to conflict, is my point.

I understand that with that cultural presumption, you're going to get a few bad apple situations every once in a while -- where a gal wants the experience of being taken out and isn't so interested in him... or lacks interest but likes going out for free + attention. Making the distinction between going out vs taking out on the first couple of dates would make it easier for us guys if that were accepted. Maybe in some sub-cultures at some point in the future more of that will be had. But remember: It's kind of like the Speed Limit -- most are going to go at least 5 mph over in light traffic, or tail in traffic going at least 5 over in light traffic. In a modified culture where the guy (merely) asking her out is going to split the bill, there's going to be many guys in a short period of time one-upping things to pay for them, and we're back to where we started because everyone starts doing it -- because the cultural recognition of asking out/taking out difference was just a fad like rolled-up jeans. :)
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