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 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 51
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Hi OP
well unless you have discussed finances you can't be sure if it is a matter of affordability.
Now you have an opened Pandora's box.. when did it start bothering you? 5th date? 8th date? Wasn't there so no idea how you raised it with her - but she said you were complaining so I imagine that's how it sounded.
Perhaps what is more troubling to you is the fact she would never ask you out. That would bug me.
Now a bind.. if you ask her and pay you get more resentful. If you don't ask her out you don't get to see her.
Do you go out to dine when you aren't dating? So a $20 meal is only then 10 extra and you have company you enjoy.
 Cdan1957
Joined: 9/17/2013
Msg: 52
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who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 6:49:24 AM
I don't think the real issue here is that she hasn't paid for anything I think the real issue is that she hasn't offered to pay. When a relationship is in its infancy I think you need to observe everything in order to determine the character of the person you are getting to know.

I was going out with a person for almost a year. I picked up every bill and to be honest didn't even think about it. One night we were walking around shops after dinner and came across an ice cream parlor. I didn't have much cash on me and didn't want to use plastic for a few dollar bill so I turned to her and asked if she had any cash she looked at me as if I asked her to buy me a new car. It changed my whole attitude towards her. I starting thinking back over the year and realized how self centered she was. I caught her cheating less than a month later and dumped her immediately.

In my current relationship she asked me after the second or third date to pick up the tab, That was 6 years ago and she is one of the nicest most giving person I have ever met.

What I took from this is in the first situation she couldn't care less about what I was thinking in the second
my feelings were important to her and still are to this day
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 53
who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 7:05:06 AM
Mr. Cdan....

Your experiences you have shared seem to be the heart of the issue to me.

Gifts come in all shapes...sizes...and come from varried places in different ways...

But the very essence of a gift excludes expectations or a price....or it is no longer a gift...is it?
 Inner_Gorilla
Joined: 12/3/2015
Msg: 54
who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 7:28:29 AM

I would just like it if she occasionally said "I got this one" or "let me take care of the tip." Is there anything wrong with that?


Then tell her. You're a big boy, a writer to boot. So figure out the conversation in your head, and where you would like it to go.

Start with a talk what constitute a caring relationship. The give an take. Then talk about the old fashion "men pay for everything" to the "couples share." And then tell her how you feel.

In my personal past experiences, women that were like that eventually turned out to be very self centered and everything was about them. Women that offered to pay, even in small amounts had an internal sense of fairness that was better centered and behaved more like a partner.

What you may want to ask her is, are you too exclusive at this point? Perhaps she is treating you just as a "Date."
 Cdan1957
Joined: 9/17/2013
Msg: 55
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who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 7:30:52 AM

But the very essence of a gift excludes expectations or a price....or it is no longer a gift...is it?


Exactly, in both instances it wasn't the gift that was important to me it is what it represented in my mind. Op, in your situation it probably isn't the price of a meal that is important it may be your worth to her.
 Chromis1
Joined: 9/9/2015
Msg: 56
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who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 7:33:06 AM

probably because I grew up in Pittsburgh and she grew up in a small town in Texas.


I grew up and still live in Pittsburgh. By and large the etiquette is still fairly old-school. Pittsburgh is not progressive by any stretch of the imagination.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 3/29/2014
Msg: 57
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 7:59:32 AM
OP, so your lady-friend said her daughter's boyfriend had a problem with daughter paying once so your lady-friend doesn't pay, offer to pay, or raise the subject of paying, and gets offended when you ask about it?

Did she actually tell you it's because of her old-fashioned values? Or are you just assuming that?

Did you have a broader discussion of what "old-fashioned values" even means to her? Still waiting for you to explain how she explains drawing the line at inviting you out on a date, paying for a date but pre-marital sex is ok.
 cooldog65
Joined: 6/27/2011
Msg: 58
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who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 8:05:32 AM
Another "who pays" thread...this could get ugly.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 59
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 8:06:20 AM

gotta love the ole 'traditional and old fashioned values' one....


No kidding. If she's so traditional and old fashioned, give her an orange in a stocking for Christmas and see if she still feels traditional and old fashioned. Seems to me that traditional and old fashioned is used by many so called modern women, who have their own paying jobs, as an excuse to live off of men or to supplement their own incomes. Sorry (not really) to those women with "traditional and old fashioned values", but I find the mindset rather disgusting.
 markmywords23
Joined: 10/18/2015
Msg: 60
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 8:14:49 AM
Good question, Cynthia, about her not wanting to pay for dinner but being okay with sex. She and I haven't had that discussion and I probably won't bring it up. If I do, she may realize the hypocrisy and send me to a cold shower. And yes, she did tell me the idea of the man paying is part of her value system. It's how she was raised.

To answer another question: Yes, we are exclusive. We established this after about date six.
 CallaLily004
Joined: 6/27/2015
Msg: 61
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 8:36:40 AM
^^^^ Now you state this after I just composed the following to post. This was in response to your last prior post....

Markmywords23 --- Thank you for the clarification as it does help a bit more in understanding the situation. So yes, you both have different views, not only on who should pay for or at least contribute once in a while to the dining expenses, but "when" it should be brought up as well. She thought it was too soon, and obviously you did not see it this way. You have not stated whether this is a deal breaker for you, but… going by your topic question: How many dates should a man pay for before the woman contributes? And when is it appropriate to bring it up? It sounds like you will be moving on and just wanted answers for future reference as the above clearly is something that doesn’t suit you well for a possible committed relationship. All that being said, IMO… I do not agree with the following posters comment:



AlanJ805… So, I make it clear to women I date right up front--at least by the 3rd date--that I will not be their suitor.


Why make automatic judgements/rules about someone when you have not even had a first date and have not had the chance to see (get to know) them? Those actions would turn me off immediately and there would not be a first date. Just to be clear, I will always contribute if I like/enjoy the company of that man. If I don’t, why waste my time, just to get freebies from him??? Ummm, No thanks. I look at it this way…. Always start with a new slate and not go by past experiences. Why not just see how things go and after like the 3rd-4th date, if they show no signs of “treating you” to make you feel special (being this is your desire), then just move on. When someone clearly likes or enjoys your company “most” are happy to contribute something to the new dating situation, providing that their income allows. If these actions are not shown, then you have the right to think that all they want is for you to be their suitor and no words should be spoken….. why ask??? Just clearly MOVE ON.

EDIT: So, being that you two have already committed to being "exclusive", will this continue???? being that her contribution is not making you happy?
 Chromis1
Joined: 9/9/2015
Msg: 62
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 8:41:25 AM

Yes, we are exclusive. We established this after about date six.


Don't want to take the topic too astray, but I see that on the dating side of this website your profile is still visible and that you were online today. But ... you're exclusive? Is your girlfriend OK with this?

Just a heads up and from one yinzer to another: If exclusivity has been established, little destroys trust faster than keeping your dating profile open.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 63
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 8:49:43 AM
On Festivus I wish to list a grievance. Chromis has disappointed me by making me look up "Yinzer". I was expecting it to be some weird sexual fetishist and was profoundly disappointed.
 Chromis1
Joined: 9/9/2015
Msg: 64
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 8:55:06 AM
^^^ Yinz got a problem n'at?
 alanj805
Joined: 4/16/2014
Msg: 65
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 9:24:20 AM

If these actions are not shown, then you have the right to think that all they want is for you to be their suitor and no words should be spoken….. why ask??? Just clearly MOVE ON.


This may not speak directly to the point you were making, but it's my preference to talk about things rather than to just draw conclusions and make decisions from observations alone.

This thread (as well as most other relationship discussions) is rife with people drawing conclusions from limited experiences rather than actually communicating directly with the person involved. Other posters concluded this woman must be a gold digger by the [limited] description of the situation, and the OP himself acknowledges that he doesn't even want to open the dialog with the lady, even though it is important enough to him to discuss it with strangers on an internet forum. Those with such an attitude because they fear of how it makes them look, or that the other person would get offended, or the other person may simply lie, etc. should reflect on how suitable they--or the other person--is for dating at all.

I have never regretted discussing something important to me directly with the person it affects, and then making decisions from whatever comes of that. It's a great way to actually get to know one another and thereby further the relationship, which I thought was the whole point of dating.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 3/29/2014
Msg: 66
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 9:43:17 AM

Good question, Cynthia, about her not wanting to pay for dinner but being okay with sex. She and I haven't had that discussion and I probably won't bring it up. If I do, she may realize the hypocrisy and send me to a cold shower.

I'm sorry, OP. That says a lot about your relationship right there. The longer this thread goes on, the more issues are disclosed. Seems the issue is bigger than irritation that she doesn't pay, or doesn't ask you out, or got upset that you raised the subject of paying. Do you honestly think that if her hypocrisy is pointed out she'll resolve the disconnect by withdrawing sex, as opposed to asking you out (and paying) for a date?

I've read stories of women using sex, or withholding sex, as a weapon. Is this the kind of person you want to be involved with?


I have never regretted discussing something important to me directly with the person it affects, and then making decisions from whatever comes of that. It's a great way to actually get to know one another and thereby further the relationship, which I thought was the whole point of dating.

+1
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 67
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 9:46:00 AM

the OP himself acknowledges that he doesn't even want to open the dialog with the lady, even though it is important enough to him to discuss it with strangers on an internet forum.


Apparently the OP did attempt to open the dialogue with the lady:
I brought this up after date ten and she took offense, said it was too soon for me to start complaining.
...and was effectively told that dialogue wasn't welcomed, at least with respect to the topic at hand. While I totally agree with never regretting discussing something important to me directly with the person it affects, I think in this case the OP is getting a good warning sign of what to expect from his lady friend, both when it comes to her expectations and her unwillingness to communicate when someone draws something to her attention.
 Butterchickenchuck
Joined: 9/18/2015
Msg: 68
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 10:03:21 AM
“To be fair, I should point out that she has offered to cook for me. In fact, we've cooked for each other. Again, everything about the relationship has been wonderful except when the restaurant check arrives.”


“Then let it go.”






What if he can’t let it go because it’s important TO HIM ?

Would people still say “ let it go “ if it was something that also bothers them ?

Examples :


Everything about the relationship has been wonderful except when…

…he smokes
…she constantly complains about her ex
….he doesn’t bathe often enough
…she refuses to go downtown
…he doesn’t floss
…she spends the night at her platonic guy friend’s house and returns the next morning all aglow and reeking of sperm

IOW , it may not be a big deal to some but clearly it IS a big deal to the OP or he wouldn’t have brought it up.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 3/29/2014
Msg: 69
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 10:11:53 AM
No one is saying "let it go" in a vacuum. They're saying he has a choice to make. He appears to have gone as far as he's willing to go to discuss the issue with this woman. He has to make a decision, he has 4 options: 1) let it go, 2) break up over it, 3) try to discuss again (which he seems unwilling to do), or 4) keep on with the status quo letting it fester within him.

People are casting their vote/expressing their opinion that if everything else is perfect, then he should choose his battle and not let this one thing (ONE thing from the OP's perspective) ruin a good thing.

Your alternate examples are ridiculous and not even worth addressing.

EDIT: vv agree this is about communication but OP said he already tried to discuss with her and she's not willing to discuss. Correction. She discussed. He didn't like her response. Now he's afraid of her retaliation if he raises it again.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 70
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just because its always been done that way doesn't mean it's not monumentally stupid
Posted: 12/23/2015 10:12:21 AM
This doesn't seem to be as much about financial behavior as it is about a communication issue. If you have problems with someone not paying their share, the first person to tell is THEM. Relationships where you walk on eggshells are not real relationships - it's performance art. You're showing a front to your partner - basically acting - and using your friends and family and internet strangers in a forum to solve issues.

The easiest answer is usually the best - TALK to them.
 ohenryx
Joined: 3/12/2010
Msg: 71
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just because its always been done that way doesn't mean it's not monumentally stupid
Posted: 12/23/2015 10:34:18 AM
After five weeks, and ten dates, and the “exclusive” talk has already happened, this is a relationship. It is no longer a “dating scenario”, or a matter of one pursuing the other.

At some point, in every real relationship, you have to start letting your guard down. You have to stop being on your best behavior, you have to let your guard down, and let them see the real you.

A part of that process is to do more of the everyday things together, instead of “going out on dates” where one or the other has to pick up the tab. I’ll come over to your house and fix that leaky faucet, you cook us some supper (or order Chinese delivery), we’ll watch a movie on Netflix and then maybe we’ll both get lucky.

Sure, you should still have a “date night”. Take her out dancing on Saturday night. But most of the time when you get together, it should be everyday things. If you’re with the right person, going to the grocery store can be fun.
 buxombad
Joined: 12/20/2015
Msg: 72
just because its always been done that way doesn't mean it's not monumentally stupid
Posted: 12/23/2015 11:01:54 AM
I cannot fathom dating somebody and not knowing early on whether they are self-centered or not. It is impossible for the self-centered to hide who they are . . . it is only those who refuse to see what is before them who can date for any extended periods and not know the person before them. Some people choose to blind themselves to the truth of who they are dating . . maybe because they are so attracted or maybe because they so badly want to be dating.
 Chromis1
Joined: 9/9/2015
Msg: 73
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just because its always been done that way doesn't mean it's not monumentally stupid
Posted: 12/23/2015 11:03:58 AM

the first person to tell is THEM.


Yeah. Right. He tried. She shot back. He won't be returning fire. Next option.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 74
just because its always been done that way doesn't mean it's not monumentally stupid
Posted: 12/23/2015 11:08:21 AM
Like P.T. Barnum said: There's one born every minute.
 CallaLily004
Joined: 6/27/2015
Msg: 75
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 12:40:22 PM

This may not speak directly to the point you were making, but it's my preference to talk about things rather than to just draw conclusions and make decisions from observations alone.


I agree with you 100% regarding that communication is "KEY" to making a relationship grow/work for both parties, and that is how I usually proceed when starting out, or even in a committed relationship when something is bothering me. That being said, I now have to apologize for my wrong assessment to my earlier comment about the why ask…just move on" for THAT particular dating scenario. I did not mean NEVER communicate when there is something troubling the relationship. I came to that conclusion because I felt that if someone is truly into you, they would have by that point offered to treat/contribute towards a dinner - AGAIN, providing that finances was not an issue. In my view, I was going by the norm of today’s society and not thinking outside the box for a “GOOD” possible reason in this case. The reason that I am referring to is, what if that particular person did not offer/contribute anything because in the past it was made known to her that it is an “Insult” not to let a man pay every time for the date and thus why she did not ever offer (did not want to insult) and -- thinking all was peachy . You see…. A discussion would have clearly made a difference, and it would have worked out for the better to clear up the confusion/question on the other party’s behalf. So yes, I was wrong in drawing that original conclusion.
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