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 Inner_Gorilla
Joined: 12/3/2015
Msg: 76
just because its always been done that way doesn't mean it's not monumentally stupidPage 4 of 58    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)

Sure, you should still have a “date night”. Take her out dancing on Saturday night. But most of the time when you get together, it should be everyday things. If you’re with the right person, going to the grocery store can be fun.


I agree with Ohenry here big time. My partner pays for her part, but sometimes I have bought tickets to the valet, then paid of dinner and drinks and even bought her some delicate lingerie, while she went out and bought a new coat and an incredible dress. Total money spent on my part close to $400. Total money spent on her part, actually because of the coat, about $600.

Yet the next day while going out for breakfast neither her or I complaint about picking the tab for it. So it's all about arriving at that comfort factor in the relationship, while those special dates can always be the old fashioned way.
 2ufo
Joined: 2/28/2015
Msg: 77
who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 1:00:40 PM

How many dates should a man pay for before the woman contributes?


After 48 years, my dad has paid every time he's ever invited his wife out, even before they were married, in spite of the fact that she worked for most of those years.

Assuming a weekly dinner, the answer is about 2500 meals.
He died, otherwise, I'm sure the number would be higher.
On the other hand, she was responsible for the remaining meals.

They were very communicative and talked about money and expectations quite often.
I wouldn't call either of them 'traditional' or 'old-fashioned'.

So, it's a 'your mileage may vary' question and you should be responsible for expressing your dissatisfaction in some way or another in order to come to a compromise that both you and she can agree to.


And when is it appropriate to bring it up?


When you feel it is appropriate to bring up the subject of money or any other facet of your relationship.
Recognize that compromise may mean you don't get (all of) what you want.
Recognize that some people don't compromise.
 LAgoodguy
Joined: 8/21/2008
Msg: 78
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 1:23:15 PM
From dating women who seem to talk about being old fashioned but same time not acting very old fashioned.
I get more of the feel that those women like the idea of being chased. It makes them feel wanted, When they feel guys would do anything for them.
More on the line of an ego boost, Same as they expect guys to chase them. Its how they measure there own self worth.

It would be one of the reasons why most of the time if you listen to them they make no sense.
Its really all about making them feel good..
 BelleAtlantic
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 79
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 1:26:55 PM
Funny how people complain about paying, but don't complain about sex.

In any case, who pays is who wants to pay. Forget about the number of dates or what takes place, if you don't feel like paying, you simply don't.

My exes paid for everything, excepts the things I bought for them, did for them, etc. That's what I'm used to, and I have no business dating anyone who will resent me for not paying for dates. Home alone has never been proven boring to me.
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 80
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 3:53:47 PM
^^a bit of a non sequitur.. ¿ so paying is a quid pro quo for sex?

¿ women do not enjoy sex? they do it in return for meals, etc._ ¿ WTF ?
 dpwesu
Joined: 3/25/2013
Msg: 81
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 3:56:53 PM
This is yet ANOTHER shining example of why I pay for my own admission tickets, my own meals, drinks, and cups of coffee.......
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 82
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 4:22:20 PM

My exes paid for everything, excepts the things I bought for them, did for them, etc. That's what I'm used to, and I have no business dating anyone who will resent me for not paying for dates.


So you allowed your ex's to control your mind, and you have no power to be deprogrammed. If you had ex's who insisted that you pay for dates, would you insist on paying for all future dates? It's all their fault that you expect guys to pay to date you.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 83
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who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 6:02:32 PM


To be fair, I should point out that she has offered to cook for me. In fact, we've cooked for each other. Again, everything about the relationship has been wonderful except when the restaurant check arrives.
Then let it go.

I disagree, no +1 there (as another poster had). He also said they've cooked for each other. So that's a wash. Never wanting to or even offering to contribute on the "side dish" side of things so to speak after things have been established? Entitlement issues to consider.

markmywords23- The person who does the inviting pays.

In the form of Invitations? That's a rarity for dates. Asking someone (if they'd like to go) out? Common for dates. So if that's what you meant, I disagree. It's not that simple, otherwise there'd be less of a who-pays issue.

The one who brings up the idea to go out / asks if the other would like to go out -- there is no tradition, rule, or unwritten rule, that they are the one to pay. At all. :) If it's the guy -- oh, heck yes. But the gal? She'd have to Explicitly ask to Take Him Out for that apply. So it's not the "person" who asks the other person to go out. Now, would I LIKE your rule? Yes, it's better than present-day's default/common one that the guy-always-pays + girl contributes somewhat to her easily-affordable range OR fake contributions for 'politeness'. Because if our society Was by those who brought it up to go out, in the end, it wouldn't always be that person anyway so much. Guys would still pay more often, but it would eliminate much more people in society having Entitlement Expectation issues.

I think the gal could be an otherwise great gal -- but is hung up on it. I don't think gold-digging radar at all -- just Entitlement "tradition", and would feel weird/insulted if she had to pay or something. The red flag being her being "Well I Never" when he brought it up, and saying it was "too soon" - LOL. That was not truly the case. If she thinks it's rude to have the gal even contribute on the 10th date, she'll think it's rude on the 20th date, etc. There's no "too soon" about a gal contributing to a date past the first 1-3 or so when it's the evaluation phase (which that is clearly past). So her response raises an eyebrow. But I think she just stumbled and didn't know what to say/how to react -- because she's conditioned that the Guys Always Pays, outside special events.
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 84
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 6:03:05 PM
Perhaps $200 in a discreet envelope, or left on her dresser, the best approach?
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 85
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who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 7:03:09 PM
wow 10 dates over 5 weeks? She has not offered to reciprocate? I don't know if you guys are getting down and dirty but really she should be paying her way at least half of the time. If it bothers you, say something or suggest that you go to her place for dinner etc.
Women want equality yet some seem to feel entitled to be bought and paid for just because they have a vejayjay.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 86
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who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 8:05:25 PM
If the person that asked was the "host" and arranged the details of the date, then I could better understand the "who asks pays theory". However on most of my first dates / meetings, both people had some input and we mutually decided what to do. If someone wants to pay for the entire date, that's fine. But I don't think a person should be expected to when everything else had been shared up to that point.

Most women have offered to pay something on my first dates / meetings. Even if it was just the tip or a drink / dessert after I had paid for something else that was more expensive. If a woman didn't offer to pay anything by the 3rd date, I might say "I will pay this time and you can pay next time" and see what her response is. I certainly wouldn't go out on 10 dates with a woman that never offered to pay anything.
 BelleAtlantic
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 87
who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 10:05:10 PM
Typical........acting like we don't all have a choice. No one is obligating anyone to do anything, and when you do not communicate your expectation, you set yourself up for disappointment. If you know you're going to resent someone for not paying or offering to pay, then don't present yourself as someone always willing to pay, then come on to the forums to complain like a baby. Take responsibility and own up to the fact that you were thinking with your d*ck, and the reason you don't want to speak up "all of the sudden" is because you're not willing to ruin your chances of getting laid or continuing to get laid.

So if you don't want to address something, it is because you consider something else way more important than the temporary dent it is making in your pocket. If you're afraid to lose someone over something as trivial as it actually costing you something, you're doing it wrong and you're thinking with your d*ck, you have your d*ck to blame.

For those who want to equate sex with money, I'm yet to see a guy who is getting laid complain about paying for dates, unless he feels entitled to it while assuming there is nothing he has to do, as if women couldn't get laid otherwise.

Maleman,
I'm not following, allowed my exes to control my mind? I think you mean having men set expectations, set a standard. Well, aren't you happy that the standards are being raised so that I don't accept just about anything from a man? Imagine, if all my life men treated me like sh*t, abused me, disrespected me, etc, and all I ever expect in life is to be treated in this manner. Then when a good man enters my life, I don't accept him, don't want him because in mind, a man is supposed to treat me like sh*t, so he stands no chance.

In life we need to have points of comparison to distinguish good from best. I'm used to being treated well, taken out, given gifts, have regard for my well being, for my sexual fulfillment, men cooking meals for me, etc. It is very common in my culture, to have a high regard for women, to want their company (beyond getting laid), to ensure her well being (health and financial), etc. So I can choose, and I'm going to choose a man who does and continues to do more for me than the average bear, because not every man is willing to. I don't have to settle, I have choices.

The common problem for many people is that they want to apply for jobs they are not qualified to do, yet feel entitled to an interview. The employer gets many applications, from a variety of applicants with other qualifications. They are under no obligation to settle for someone from the initial round of interviews nor from the first time they post the job, they can close the search and begin a new one, until they find an ideal candidate, because they want to get it right the first time. So they set a criteria, with qualificatios, requirements, and preferred qualifications beyond the average bear, because they feel that such qualifications makes an ideal candidate more likely to carry out the job.

So before you set yourself up to fail, make sure to communicate your expectations.

I have nothing against women who choose to pay, prefer to split bills and whatever they choose or want to do, the beauty about it all is that we have choices. It is not selfish to do what's right for you.
 LAgoodguy
Joined: 8/21/2008
Msg: 88
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/23/2015 10:19:50 PM
BellaAtlantic. I agree with you that people don't have to do what they don't feel like.
If the guys keep asking the woman out knowing that she I not going to pay. Why are they complaining?? Don't like how the dates go don't ask her out. Or just say what and how you feel. If she don't like to hear what you have to say, Its not your problem keep on looking. But guys have the thing for self punishment so they keep asking the woman out with the idea of sex that at some point she might spread them. If you date a woman who likes you to pay and you don't feel its right do not date her. It will never work out as at some point the sex wont be good enough to keep paying.
If I found that the woman expects me to pay for everything I stopped dating her right there didn't waste time or money.

I too find my own company or a company of a good book more entertaining then many of the dates I been on. Plenty of times I couldn't wait to end the date so I could go home and take the pup for a walk. I found it more fun then some of the dates.
I never liked to date the so called old fashioned women. I want someone who is smart knows what she wants and knows how to take care of her self. I want my equal not some wall flower that I need to take care of every step of the way.
I don't need a woman to cook for me as I can cook and I cook better then all the women I ever been in a relationship with.
So yes I ended up doing most of the cooking. Which I enjoy very much and don't might the cooking.
 LuvFishes
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 89
who pays
Posted: 12/23/2015 10:32:44 PM
[ ] ...ten dates over a period of five weeks. None of the dates were expensive ($20-$70) but she has never offered to chip in or pay. I brought this up after date ten and she took offense [/]

OP if it's not about the $ then why do you care? What really do you expect from dining out? Something in your discussion with her has hit a nerve with you. Maybe your seeing the "Real" her. Does she even offer her sincere appreciation for your generosity? BTW $70 is expensive but for a really nice restaurant probably isn't.

My dates have always paid. It's not a deal breaker or an issue. The guy I'm seeing I don't hesitate to pick up things (cleaning supplies, food) he needs at his place. I do it because it's usually something we need, he's been a bachelor for so long he is messy and I am more neat. When cooking, I clean as I go so that it's minimal time clean up in the end. He's more will leave things there and get around to it eventually. We go out and if he pays one time, then I will bring groceries to prepare meal at his place. We Balance.
 scm600
Joined: 3/14/2010
Msg: 90
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who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 4:41:31 AM
I usually pay, even if it's just a casual outing with a female friend. Just old fashioned, I guess. However, I do watch to see if they reciprocate in some way. Offering to pay, making dinner or picnic lunch, buying ice cream at a stand on the way home, arranging an outing etc. Just anything that shows that they want to take an active role in the relationship/friendship.

This is especially important for someone I'm seriously interested in. And no, it's not the money. My thinking on it is that, in a relationship, both have to carry their own weight in day to day matters. Why would I want to get in a committed relationship with someone whose only contribution is their company? That can be fun at first with certain women, but wears thin pretty quickly. I want a partner, not a pet.

And I don't bring it up for discussion. I just watch as we're getting to know each other. If they don't seem like they want to contribute after 4 or 5 dates, I graciously move on.

I've seen lots of relationships/marriages where only one partner is bearing the brunt of the work. And it's not always the man. Few seem happy with that imbalance. I don't want to be one of them. Been there, done that, the t-shirt wasn't worth the trip.... :-)
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 91
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who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 4:53:44 AM

Funny how people complain about paying, but don't complain about sex.



Well, we would complain if all we were doing is "giving" in the sex department. The bonus about sex is if you are "giving", more than likely you are "getting", even if it's in a round about way.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 92
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who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 6:15:45 AM

Funny how people complain about paying, but don't complain about sex.


It should be because sex is a voluntary activity done because both parties WANT to do it.

People that believe sex is some sort of cold, bankable commodity - as 'payment' for services rendered - really are missing the point. Nothing spoils a love life more than always holding sex hostage until "that" or "this" gets done.

If it's done playfully - if the effort 'required' to have sex is done out of a willingness or love for the other person - then it's foreplay, and makes all the difference in the world. I WOULD complain about sex if it came with asterisks and requirements every time. That means the spontaneity is completely gone. If it no longer was a recreational activity - and became a labor transaction - forget about it.
 Kay9876
Joined: 7/4/2012
Msg: 93
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who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 7:06:43 AM

Msg. 90: I usually pay. ... However, I do watch to see if they reciprocate in some way. Offering to pay, making dinner or picnic lunch, buying ice cream at a stand on the way home, arranging an outing etc. Just anything that shows that they want to take an active role in the relationship/friendship.

This is especially important for someone I'm seriously interested in. And no, it's not the money. My thinking on it is that, in a relationship, both have to carry their own weight in day to day matters. Why would I want to get in a committed relationship with someone whose only contribution is their company?

^^^This seems appropriate to me. To me, it feels like dating if the man is paying for the date. I don’t mind free or inexpensive dates, paying the tip, buying ice cream or a drink afterward, or spending money on him in other ways, but the evening feels like a date when the man is (and wants to be) in the habit of going out of his way to provide a pleasant time for us.

Alternatively, when I’ve developed the habit of paying my own way, it feels like friendship. Habitually paying my own way with a man makes it feel like not-a-date … no different than friendship, especially before more-than-friends could have been established. And so, we establish friendship instead of dating.

Why would I (a man) want to get in a committed relationship with someone whose only contribution is their company?

That works both ways. A woman could feel the same about a man who insists that she pays for everything as though they were friends. There are men whose company I greatly enjoy, but if we’re behaving as though we’re friends, then that’s all we are because it feels like friendship to me, and I never have sex with mere friends.

People who believe that paying for a date is tantamount to paying for sex enter “relationships” with a conscious or unconscious bent toward bartering. (This is a separate issue from believing both parties should pay their own way because it can be a financial burden to do otherwise.) Bartering, in and of itself, creates a dichotomy that can work for sex but is inconsistent with love.

People have different ideas about attraction and dating, and that’s a good thing. Having differences and uniqueness makes it all the more special when we meet someone who is right for us.
 caballerosiempre
Joined: 12/5/2015
Msg: 94
who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 8:32:11 AM
LOL, the thing of woman offering sex as a great "gift"..only "giving in" not because they want to it like i tor enjoy it, but as the quid pro quo..NO

I have an aunt who would always tell her husband, my uncle, you will get lucky tonight if I get that new mink coat

we·ll have a good time if you book that vacation trip..etc., etc.

just lovely.. hold the vajayjay as ransom, I certainly would not have blamed him if he had left or found someone on the side who appeared to WANT to have sex with him

IG you bought tickets to the valet, the guy who parked your car? not understanding that sentence..how is somebody buying something "permanent" that will last like a coat, "contributing" to an evening out?

funny though, women saying oh it is just a few bucks. <(cheap price to hit this) .bucks THEY certainly do not want to shell out but want to keep

reminds me of negotiations the other side says..oh it·s not much more, just pay the asking price, list price....OK then why don·t YOU drop your price if it·s so insignificant ?
 SLAFFA
Joined: 8/13/2007
Msg: 95
who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 8:42:59 AM
I sometimes wonder how many people know when, where and how "marriage" got started? And how much or how little it has changed? The divorce rate today makes perfect sense given the current world we live in at least here in the US.

Change is inevitable in ALL Social Relationships given all the factors that might be involved in today's world. Life is simply, INEVITABLY, way more complex than even 15 years ago.

Adapt or...

???
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 96
who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 10:18:54 AM
It's funny how so many women see nothing wrong with a guy paying for dates, but if a guy was to pull out a coupon when the bill came, all hell breaks loose, like it happened when the topic came up here. Fireworks went off. The women, who are paying nothing, calls the guys, who are paying the bill, cheapskates. Then there was a thread a while back where a woman stopped seeing a guy because when he was paying the bill on a date, she felt he didn't leave a big enough tip. Of course, she wouldn't dust off her purse to contribute to the tip.
 buxombad
Joined: 12/20/2015
Msg: 97
who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 11:15:01 AM
"The divorce rate today makes perfect sense given the current world we live in at least here in the US."

Sounds great, except the difference orce rate has gone down significantly over the last few decades. Another theory busted.

It seems many of the divorced here assume the divorce rate is far worse than the actual facts.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 98
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who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 11:16:54 AM

I've taken a woman on ten dates over a period of five weeks. None of the dates were expensive ($20-$70) but she has never offered to chip in or pay. I brought this up after date ten and she took offense, said it was too soon for me to start complaining. My question: How many dates should a man pay for before the woman contributes? And when is it appropriate to bring it up? Thanks all.


Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me ten times, shame on you.


Funny how people complain about paying, but don't complain about sex.


That's probably because both people are actually contributing to sex.
 BelleAtlantic
Joined: 11/7/2012
Msg: 99
who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 11:32:41 AM

But guys have the thing for self punishment so they keep asking the woman out with the idea of sex that at some point she might spread them.

It's not self-punishment, it's an agenda. Doing something in hopes to get something else, is what I like to call dishonesty.


If you date a woman who likes you to pay and you don't feel its right do not date her. It will never work out as at some point the sex wont be good enough to keep paying.

The way I see it, the sex won't be good enough for a woman to want to continue to have it. A man can ejaculate every single time, while a woman requires much more to achieve the same pleasure.

You think that the same sex you're able to have now is the same sex you're going to be able to have way later in life? You ever wonder why women who are well into their 40s usually prefer younger men?

So at some point all the money in the world and all the sex in the world aren't going to be good enough to balance themselves out.


If I found that the woman expects me to pay for everything I stopped dating her right there didn't waste time or money.

If I found out that a man expects me to s*ck his d*ck every single time we have sex, and he rarely planned on going down on me, I stopped dating him right there and then, and didn't waste anymore of his money nor any more of my time.

After all someone else can and will.


I too find my own company or a company of a good book more entertaining then many of the dates I been on. Plenty of times I couldn't wait to end the date so I could go home and take the pup for a walk. I found it more fun then some of the dates.

I totally understand. For me, even a nap it's more satisfying than going on a date.


I never liked to date the so called old fashioned women. I want someone who is smart knows what she wants and knows how to take care of her self.

I don't know what to think about that statement. I'm going to venture to say that I don't think anyone wants someone stupid or dumb, and everyone want someone who can take care of themselves. I don't see how having the ability to pay for something equates having to do it.


I want my equal not some wall flower that I need to take care of every step of the way.

I also want my equal, not a d*ck that I need to take care of every time it gets up. There's nothing satisfying about that, something has got to give, lol.


OP if it's not about the $ then why do you care? What really do you expect from dining out? Something in your discussion with her has hit a nerve with you. Maybe your seeing the "Real" her. Does she even offer her sincere appreciation for your generosity? BTW $70 is expensive but for a really nice restaurant probably isn't.

I think OP thought he was performing a miracle, and was confronted by the fact that he isn't. So the woman question is going to go on in life to find someone else who doesn't complain about paying, whether the first date or the 20th date.

It really is something when you're confronted with the fact that people have choices, and you don't have to be one of them.


And I don't bring it up for discussion. I just watch as we're getting to know each other. If they don't seem like they want to contribute after 4 or 5 dates, I graciously move on.

Spoken like a true gentleman, if you don't like what you see as time goes on, you abort the mission. It's quite a simple process.


Well, we would complain if all we were doing is "giving" in the sex department.

Ahhhhhh, like continuing to give a woman d*ck, and still..............none of it results in an orgasm for her.

We can all give, but are we giving anything worth having? Lmao


The bonus about sex is if you are "giving", more than likely you are "getting", even if it's in a round about way.

Survey says..............nope, many times you are giving and getting nothing in return. The variables can change, and the same results are obtained.


It should be because sex is a voluntary activity done because both parties WANT to do it.

Paying is also voluntary.


Alternatively, when I’ve developed the habit of paying my own way, it feels like friendship. Habitually paying my own way with a man makes it feel like not-a-date … no different than friendship, especially before more-than-friends could have been established. And so, we establish friendship instead of dating.

That's exactly how it feels like to me. I once went out with someone about five times. The second time we met up, he suggested that I pay for the tickets to the venue, and he'd pay for dinner. And on it went, then the last time we met up, he sort of had a little too much to drink and leaned over to bite my ear playfully. I looked at him like "what the hell are you doing? "

I didn't see him after that. I wasn't really attracted him from a very beginning, so asking for me to carry my own weight so to speak, further set the tone for friendship.


I sometimes wonder how many people know when, where and how "marriage" got started? And how much or how little it has changed?

I believe it goes something like this...marriage was created in order to pass on property and continue a legacy. It had nothing to do with love hence nothing to do with fidelity.

A woman's survival depended heavily on who she married, there being a need for her to get married. A man needed to marry in order to form a family to carry on his last name and any property he amassed.

Nowadays a woman does not need a man in order to survive, she can provide for herself should she want to. She also doesn't need to marry in order to have a family, she can go to a sperm bank and support the child or children herself.

Eliminating the need usually eliminates the desire for it.


The divorce rate today makes perfect sense given the current world we live in at least here in the US.

Most divorces are initiated by women, because we no longer have to take sh*t from anyone, for any reason.

[quote/] Adapt or...
...........Stay single, we all have choices









 clamdigger50
Joined: 12/17/2015
Msg: 100
who pays
Posted: 12/24/2015 11:46:34 AM
Well, that was slightly crass.

Why is it that the above seemed like a rant for "I am woman here me roar", as have a few other posters in this thread, yet at the same time they want to feel entitled, treated like a princess and have the man treat them to outings, meals and gifts. The comment about if she pays then it doesn't feel like she's dating. Really? And really, both genders can easily get on without the other. I happen to think that a long and successful relationship beats being alone, mind you, many on here haven't had a long or successful relationship so they have nothing to compare with.
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