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 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 1146
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I don't know where I got the vacation thing, must have been someone else. From what you said, you're not going 50/50 on your dates, and you're not alternating with paying for dates either:

This is not the case. My guy and I have been a couple since 2011, and he doesn't expect me to contribute to the dates. For the first meet, we each paid for our own drinks and split the cost of an appetizer. I alway offer to contribute to our dates in some way---at the very least, to get the tip. He appreciates my offers, but rarely takes me up on them. In turn, when I am the one extending an invitation to him, it is always my treat.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 1147
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 6:59:35 AM

The ease with which women can meet men gives women an enormous advantage in dating. If women want men to pay up, they will likely find a man who will. Those guys who bellyache...well, get a better job, or just move on and quitchur****in about something that is basically a force of nature. Or just date men.


OTOH it's not that hard for men to find women that are willing to split the bill or takes turns paying for a date. At least among younger women.


Norwegian Guy, women entertain at their home all the time, much more so than being taken out. So who is the "user" here? If a guy offers to take a woman out on a date occasionally, he should pay for it. Women pay when the guys are at their home 24/7. If men want to nitpick with me about splitting a bill, it's going to cost them if I start adding up costs from them eating, watching rented movies and hanging out at my place.


Whenever a woman invited me to her house, I always offered to contribute in some way. Whether it was bringing wine, appetizers, dessert, a rented movie to watch etc. Also a woman cooking dinner for me did not happen way often than us going out for dinner or some other event during the early dating stage. If it got to the point where 2 people moved in with each other, then things might be different.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 1148
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 7:48:17 AM

OTOH it's not that hard for men to find women that are willing to split the bill or takes turns paying for a date. At least among younger women.


Just to clarify, this doesn't necessarily mean it is always 50-50. But most women on my first dates / meetings had offered to pay at the least the tip. Or a drink / snack after I had paid for something else that was more expensive. A small percentage of women had actually offered to pay the entire bill on a first date / meeting. For reasons such as I agreed to go to a place that was much closer to her. Or the majority of the bill was hers.
 halcyon_skies
Joined: 7/27/2015
Msg: 1149
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 9:29:36 AM

From what you said, you're not going 50/50 on your dates, and you're not alternating with paying for dates either:


You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I never said I went 50/50 on every date. We took turns. When I did the inviting, which was often, I paid the tab. When he did the inviting, he paid the tab---however, I always contributed in some way, although he didn't expect me to do it.

That's the difference between you and me. I've always contributed to dating expenses, and I would often invite the man out on a date and treat him. You do not. You expect the man to always pay the entire tab, and you never offer to chip in. Fortunately, not all women have your self-entitled "pay for the pleasure of my company" attitude toward men.
 ThroatLozenge
Joined: 3/2/2016
Msg: 1150
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 10:10:24 AM
I wonder if New Yorker's guy she's been seeing since 2011 knows her profile states actively seeking a relationship.

He's probably broke by now...
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 1151
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Why is 'He who plans, pays' a Dating Law none shall oppose?
Posted: 6/20/2017 10:28:45 AM
It really bugs me in a fledgling relationship how some people don't want to say anything, suggest anything, do anything without being 'invited' to do so. Are they a vampire stuck on the doorstep of a house or something?

'He who plans, pays' is an archaic rule - and I do believe there are plenty of women who exploit it - simply by refusing to talk.

Having a date with someone who doesn't spontaneously bring up their own conversation topics is boring as hell. Even texting on these websites with someone who ONLY replies to my messages is enough to make me tire of trying to impress them. And that is exactly what if feels like... "Show me what YOU've got - and THEN I'll decide to return the favor." It feels like people are so pained by small talk that the only thing that 'deserves' their attention is full blown-out date plan invite complete with tickets paid and menus available to peruse.

Why are people like that? Are they afraid if they suggest something, they will have to pay for it? What other fears come into play that prevent you from volunteering your own dialogue? Being unique or different isn't automatically 'weird' or something to be scared about - but why does anything out of the ordinary feel like it's considered 'toxic'? Why are people 'supposed' to do the same behavior EVERY time when it comes to planning a first meet? Isn't THAT true boredom?

People CAN agree and plan things together - and still have just one of them pay the tab. It HAS happened before.

I don't think it's about wanting to be 'surprised' either - not with the nervous Nellies out there - TRUE spontaneous events terrify them, at least at the start. Frankly, the people that simply state, "Surprise Me" in a profile might as well be stating, "I'm selfish." - Because it's not the surprise they care about - it's how much work someone will do to show them they 'care'.
 fullmoonguy2
Joined: 6/14/2017
Msg: 1152
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History
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 10:37:32 AM

"Traveling," can mean many things,


Yes, for some people "traveling" means actually getting up and walking to the refrigerator for their next beer, instead of having someone else deliver it to them.
 cooldog65
Joined: 6/27/2011
Msg: 1153
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who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 10:38:34 AM

I wonder if New Yorker's guy she's been seeing since 2011 knows her profile states actively seeking a relationship.


Great catch there Clooney. The entire profile would indicate just that. Should be an interesting explanation.
 Laidbackguy1964
Joined: 4/20/2017
Msg: 1154
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 10:48:22 AM

I wonder if New Yorker's guy she's been seeing since 2011 knows her profile states actively seeking a relationship.

He's probably broke by now
Poor newyork...has his money run out? no credit cards left and no more free meals then? are you on the hunt for another guy with a pot of gold? Maybe you will hit the jackpot this time;)

If you have no luck, then perhaps you could move to treasure island? Remember to Bring your empty chest and fill it with gold lol

just for you newyork
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXkEiZwln1Y
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 1155
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who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 11:21:07 AM
Halycon, I understand exactly what you are saying, you DO NOT go 50/50, yet you want to name call. Now you're changing what you've said to say you do the inviting often. Oh, please, LoL. I saw that coming a mile away and just left that on the table for you to change what you said. Bingo, hypocrite!

After the first date, when I go with dates to parks and natural areas, I have already paid for the yearly entry pass and parking pass, he pays.....NOTHING! I drive us to the parks, because the parking I paid for is associated with my car. When the guys come to my place for dinner, they pay.......NOTHING! When they come to hang out at my place for a rented movie, to watch tv and have snacks, they still pay......NOTHING! Meanwhile, they're emptying out my refrigerator and pantry, because some are freeloaders. Does that make you happy to think a guy is taking advantage of a woman? Do you dislike women? You sound very unhappy to come here to label other women, and falsely, for what you yourself are doing.
 ThroatLozenge
Joined: 3/2/2016
Msg: 1156
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 11:50:16 AM
They wouldn't be emptying out your pantry or fridge if you were cooking them meals as you've stated before.

Does your bf from 2011 know you have freeloaders coming over?

You seem to pay attention to resources being spent or consumed.

Do you keep a ledger?

Are you an accountant by chance?
 spot4username
Joined: 12/15/2015
Msg: 1157
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who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 12:37:44 PM

I wonder if New Yorker's guy she's been seeing since 2011 knows her profile states actively seeking a relationship.


NewYorker58 is quoting Halcyon_Skies. She isn't talking about herself. She just failed to use the quote function. It makes it look like she is speaking about herself.

I don't have a dog in this fight but reading comprehension does seem to be at an all time low.
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 1158
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who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 2:06:06 PM
Spot, I used a colon and a separate paragraph, can't get more clear than that unless a person is a troll and wants to distort things. How do you use quotes?
 halcyon_skies
Joined: 7/27/2015
Msg: 1159
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 2:49:01 PM

Halycon, I understand exactly what you are saying, you DO NOT go 50/50, yet you want to name call. Now you're changing what you've said to say you do the inviting often. Oh, please, LoL. I saw that coming a mile away and just left that on the table for you to change what you said. Bingo, hypocrite!


No, I don't think you do understand what I've been saying. While I'm not a fan of your self-entitled attitude, I didn't call you a name--a few men in here have already called you a couple of choice names, which I don't feel the need to repeat here.

Again, I NEVER said I go 50/50 on every date. That's the same thing as going Dutch--although my guy and I did go Dutch on the first meet. On actual dates, we each took turns paying for them. I've always been aggressive in going after what I wanted---I often invited men out on dates, and I paid the tab. I had no issue with contributing to the dating expenses when a man invited me out.

If a man insisted on paying the entire bill, I would graciously accept, but I would never expect him to pay. I told my guy on our first date that I would really love to buy the next round of drinks, and he accepted my offer. For our second date, I invited him to a Bar & Grill and paid the entire tab. Third date, he paid the tab, and I got the tip and valet.


After the first date, when I go with dates to parks and natural areas, I have already paid for the yearly entry pass and parking pass, he pays.....NOTHING! I drive us to the parks, because the parking I paid for is associated with my car. When the guys come to my place for dinner, they pay.......NOTHING! When they come to hang out at my place for a rented movie, to watch tv and have snacks, they still pay......NOTHING! Meanwhile, they're emptying out my refrigerator and pantry, because some are freeloaders.


I've always had dates with new men in places where there were lots of people around. Not in parks, and certainly not in my home---unless we had been dating for awhile and I knew the man had good character. Freeloaders? Learn to vet your dates better, and meet them in public places.


Does that make you happy to think a guy is taking advantage of a woman? Do you dislike women? You sound very unhappy to come here to label other women, and falsely, for what you yourself are doing.


Quite to the contrary---it is YOU who seems very unhappy, and bitter toward other women. I'm not the one who started a thread b!tching about cheap men and implying that other women who contributed to the cost of dates weren't ladies. You also disparaged me by implying that I "enjoyed being treated as less" because I contributed to the cost of dates with my guy:

https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts16626339.aspx
 cooldog65
Joined: 6/27/2011
Msg: 1160
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who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 6:49:24 PM

I don't have a dog in this fight but reading comprehension does seem to be at an all time low.


I'm guilty of bad reading comprehension. I completely missed the colon. The quote box would have helped. Thanks.
 sandwater
Joined: 4/2/2017
Msg: 1161
who pays
Posted: 6/20/2017 7:43:46 PM

A small percentage of women had actually offered to pay the entire bill on a first date / meeting. For reasons such as I agreed to go to a place that was much closer to her. Or the majority of the bill was hers.


I have paid for dates because of these reasons. I didn't think it was fair for a man to pay for a date when he had already spent more time and money on gas going to the date location. I have also paid for dates when I needed to reschedule a few hours before the scheduled time of the date and he was understanding about it.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 1162
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who pays
Posted: 6/21/2017 12:39:12 PM

The thing is, in general, women control the market in most dating spheres.

Yes, they do. That's the reason why the market motions that the guy is almost always going to pay at least a step more, if not the vast majority when counting mere dates up. It continues for the most part because, the market, yes, is in a gal's favor. Last I counted in random medium-sized areas, it's about a 2.5:1 ratio of guys to gals on POF in the high-activity age range. You go out to the bars in most places -- count the guys VS gals in the room not together. It's Rare to walk into a filled bar where you're like "Man, there's not many dudes in here; it's all chicks," regardless of bar type. And pointing to one of the more recent sub-discussions here about the alleged notion "Ladies gathering night, it's a social rule that men aren't supposed to come talk to us" -- even though that's Not any social "rule" by any stretch, can you imagine any guys saying that's how it is too when it's guys-night-out at the bar? LOL.

So yes, the market is definitely tilted. Which is why gals And even many guys sometimes (including myself) will take it for granted or lose sight that is in fact a distinct unfair balance, when it comes to the norm of flipping the bills during the dating dance. It keeps the core of "tradition" from yesteryear of man-pays-for-dates still applying in the modern age -- even among more women than one would think, who are comfortably financially independent. I can understand a working woman just Rolling with it because there's always guys who will ... but to be "pshaw" him if he says "Here, I'll get this one, you can get next one?", on a 3rd date, as if that cheapskate rat just asked her to pay his child support? Yikes. :)

Norwegian Guy, women entertain at their home all the time, much more so than being taken out. So who is the "user" here?

Whoah Whoah Whoah -- Wait -- what? You're saying that the dating scene's defined by women having the dates at their home, that they entertain on their own dime (sans maybe a bottle of wine he brings over)?? :) LOL Complete BS if that's what your saying, and you know that. Even episodes of the Golden Girls didn't paint that picture, if you wanted to play the "old school" card. That is Not the flow of the dating scene. At. All.

Yes, Established Couples will sometimes have it Something like that -- but even so, it's not The way that the guy goes over to her house a majority of the time, never to his, then occasionally he'll take her out. But when a couple rolls exactly that way as you describe, sure, he's getting the better end of the stick. Yep. She would have a right to say, "Hey, let's go out a little more" or "Hey, bring over the groceries this time", etc. But in No Way is the dating scene defined as you describe it as the Norm, thus...

If a guy offers to take a woman out on a date occasionally, he should pay for it. Women pay when the guys are at their home

... this baby-game "rule" would result in a huge imbalance for a Vast majority, because the dating scene is not constructed as you describe way out in left field. Which is why one shouldn't apply your "rule" and call it roughly-equal for all. By and large, NO, it's not going to balance out via those "rulez" when hitting the dating scene.

A majority of women aren't going to be inviting a guy over on the 3rd date and beyond at her house making & buying everything for a majority of the dates, being at-her-home on her dime, from thereon in. It'd be ludicrous (or lying to oneself) to think the dating scene is anything like that as the norm. :)

A common/expected dating scenario for Bob, with what you say in mind is:
- Bob goes out with Sally for 2 dates
- Bob goes out with Rita for 1 date
- Bob goes out with Veronica for 5 dates, as they then start seeing each other
- Veronica has Bob over for an at-home date
- Bob goes out with Veronica for 1 date
- Bob has Veronica over at his place for an at-home date
- Depending on their situation, Bob may go to Veronica's more, Veronica may go to Bob's more
- More common that gal's at guy's place more, but that's neither here nor there
- There is no trend of people seeing each other = just stay at one's home watching Matlock & Murder She Wrote

Point is, there's no rigid baby-game rules like "Guy cooks outside on the grill, gal cooks in kitchen! No excuses!" There is only a trend AWAY from what you describe as in the Dating Scene altogether, that the guy's at gal's place on her dime and dates are only occasionally held outside a lady's home in which she buys & cooks. The still-adopted/like-it-or-not expectation-rule of guy paying for a majority of the outings -- isn't because of your fictional construct of the dating rule where dates are to be held at a lady's, hence, if/when they Do go out, he should pay. Naw man, that's not why the "guy-pays" rule exists. :)
 spot4username
Joined: 12/15/2015
Msg: 1163
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who pays
Posted: 6/21/2017 3:15:06 PM

I'm guilty of bad reading comprehension. I completely missed the colon. The quote box would have helped. Thanks.

That wasn't the bad reading comprehension I was talking about. Others in this thread are far guiltier on many counts.

The colon really didn't mean anything. It wasn't grammatically clear at all. If a person is not going to use the quote feature (which is literally above this box where you type your message) they should use quotation marks, definitive line breaks, and/or attribute the words to their original poster. You see a lot of lazy assumptions that can be attributed to an even lazier poster. It makes for a muddled thread - not that we really need much help in that regard!
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 1164
who pays
Posted: 6/21/2017 5:29:16 PM
First time I had lunch with D we shared a P and J sandwich
Was married to him forever, not an hour passes I don't think of him
And he was far more generous than I
The whole who pays... more that half the time the cheap asses want someone to pay for them. Best be able to screw like a Mink and look my Jason.
Otherwise, bickering about $10 is just tacky. Sad ass and tacky
Eat your Kraft dinner outta the pot and complain no one wants to give you a chance because you are shorter, heavier, older
Nah.. it is because you steal sugar packades
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 1165
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who pays
Posted: 6/21/2017 5:44:21 PM
Halcyon, I'm talking about literally paying 50% off all costs overall, which doesn't have to be done on each date. See how petty this is? Relationships are never 50/50, not with who pays and how much, but also with who does what in a relationship. Men who try to say it should be 50/50 are just being petty and lazy and cheap. Probably that's one reason they'll never find someone or the women won't be happy with them. It also comes down to who makes more money. According to the men here, you shouldn't even accept a guy paying. That's not how I feel, though. The more you talk about dating and money, the more your level of generosity rises. It makes me wonder how truthful you are being.

Men of our age and older just don't expect women to ask them out and certainly do not expect them to pay for the date. You may not see it, but the men consider that to be desperate and not respect you the way they should. This is just the way men of our era were raised. I feel I am still dating those men and expect them to pay for dates they ask me out for, and I don't ask for money when they come to my home for dinner or to hang out and drink/eat what I put out for them. I expect them to be gentlemen too. If he can't open a door and hold it open, he just was not raised right. It's not about equal rights, it's how they were raised and then how they feel about women. I don't know what you see on profiles, but I see men saying they are old fashioned and are gentlemen, and will pointedly say they hold open doors, etc. These are the men I seek. I'm glad for you that you have someone that makes you happy. About vetting a guy, that's what dating is for. I do as much as I can with phone conversations.

I never walk away from a relationship feeling bitter. I tell women friends and men, don't let your last partner change who you are or how you feel about the opposite sex. I wanted my divorce, but I'm not bitter. He still calls or e-mails me to chat and ask me my opinion on things. Two ex-boyfriends from decades ago, they're still in contact with me and one calls me all the time, and all 3 contact me to say happy birthday every year, we're good friends.

Norwegian Guy, that's the way things have gone for me for decades. A few dates and the guy is crashing at my place. One guy started to come over every day for dinner. I did have to tell him, you've got to bring something for dinner and it may have to be meat, because I'm really not a meat eater if you want to see meat on your plate. I didn't consider him a user or freeloader, just a guy that liked my cooking and wanted to eat at my place. He gladly brought part of the dinner that was to be cooked. This is why I'm saying, the men are happy with me reciprocating this way and would rather not have me give them money towards our inexpensive dates, which are mostly movies.

One of my dates brought over a $5 bottle of wine for my birthday when I made dinner. When you make a 6 figure salary and do that, you're cheap. I'd rather he brought nothing. Oh, and then he looked in my refrigerator and saw a bottle of wine and wanted to drink it!!!! When I make dinner and you stay so late you ask for another meal, that's being cheap and being an opportunist. I can't work with men that are like that. I'm not cheap and find that to be a huge turnoff. I'm an outdoorsy gal. I'm not looking to go to restaurants, just don't shop for groceries at my house, LOL. I don't blame guys for wanting to hang out at my place, it's very comfortable. During summer months, it's drinks in my yard, and lounging with my pets. I'm fine with taking a guy to go hiking a trail and coming back to my place.
 Laidbackguy1964
Joined: 4/20/2017
Msg: 1166
who pays
Posted: 6/21/2017 7:19:15 PM
Wow the claws are out on this thread:)))) I'm loving this cat fight lol...NW perhaps now you have realised that not all women will snog you and agree with everything you have to say...the one's that do, might just be humouring you and or feel sorry for you...interesting you mention all these exes, sending you birthday cards, phoning you etc , but yet you keep harping on about not being able to meet a decent guy? How bad guys treated your friends etc? lol...Maybe you were the reason these relationships did not work out? Have you ever thought about that? No the victim card is an easy card to play and takes away all responsibility from you:)))) Think you drove those guys away
Your posting history is, so inconsistent and you have been caught out...bit late for you to save face now:))))
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 1167
who pays
Posted: 6/21/2017 8:53:25 PM

Men who try to say it should be 50/50 are just being petty and lazy and cheap. Probably that's one reason they'll never find someone or the women won't be happy with them.


I don't think many men expect it to be literally 50-50. They just want a woman to contribute some of the cost for dates. Suppose a man pays for an item that is $30. Then a woman pays for an item that is $20. I won't be angry because I paid $10 more than did.


According to the men here, you shouldn't even accept a guy paying.


If a man wants to pay, that's fine. However that's different than a woman expecting him to pay for all or the vast majority of the dates.
 NewYorker58
Joined: 6/11/2013
Msg: 1168
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who pays
Posted: 6/21/2017 9:51:25 PM
Like I've said before, this all sounds so petty to me. I've never seen or heard this kind of pettiness until I joined the forums. I don't have a horse in this race anyway, because I don't go on dinner dates all the time. I've worked in the food industry, so very much not intrigued or interested in dinner, especially with how I see food handled. I'm an outdoorsy kind of gal, so that's my focus. I'm into hiking and kayaking. I've got way more outdoor clothes and gear than I have things to go out in.
 Wilkes_Barre_Candy
Joined: 9/7/2016
Msg: 1169
who pays
Posted: 6/22/2017 6:16:56 AM

I've never seen or heard this kind of pettiness until I joined the forums.

Ditto.

Now I will bring out my old standby argument.

Most men who date have an end goal of SEX.

If they do not wish to have to lay out any $$$ on dating, I suggest they start a "Prostitution Fund"--save their $$ & go as often as they can afford to Parumph, Nevada, where prostitution is legal & regulated at such places as "The Bunny Ranch".

When a man figures out the cost of a round trip ticket, plus the cost of just having no-frills, basic, straight, vanilla sex at such an establishment, he may re-think his belly-aching about buying 3 inexpensive lunches/meals b4 getting laid.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 1170
who pays
Posted: 6/22/2017 6:45:32 AM
If I was just looking for sex, there are legal places where I can get it that are much cheaper than going to the Bunny Ranch or some other brothel.
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