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 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 108
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What does old-fashioned values even meanPage 5 of 58    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)

If the guys keep asking the woman out knowing that she I not going to pay. Why are they complaining??

That's not the case with the OP, though. He didn't think this would happen, really -- hence he's asking how common is this? When it hit the 10th date and he brought it up, and she acted like it's "too soon" (obvious BS -- over a month, double-digit dates; already been fully intimate; 'too soon' isn't her real feeling/reason). Otherwise things are great with her, so he's at a crossroads since he's 10 dates and over a month deep, but yeah, is complaining about this concept and wants to know how on base or off base he is about it.

Kay,


Why would I want to get in a committed relationship with someone whose only contribution is their company?
^^^This seems appropriate to me.

It's appropriate to only contribute your company to him? I'm not trying to be argumentative, as I'm sure you're a great, sweet gal, but doesn't that sound self-centered? I can understand if he asks you out where he likes you and you're determining how much you like him (but worthy of my company), and in the initial few dates of an evaluation period where he asked ya out, ok -- sure, yeah. But when one goes from the first 2-3 dates to starting to see each other, doesn't the whole "me being in your company should be good enough" kinda go out the window? :)

To me, it feels like dating if the man is paying for the date.

Really, tho? So if you wanted to celebrate his birthday and you bought him dinner at Applebees, you wouldn't feel it was a date?

I don’t mind free or inexpensive dates, paying the tip, buying ice cream or a drink afterward, or spending money on him in other ways,

Great! :) But that's part of the date, though. All a date is, is spending time with them 1-on-1. So if you pay part of the bill, or buy drinks afterwards, he's not (gasp) paying for the whole date when you contribute to paying it. I think a more mature society (our society has it's fair share of immaturities, both traditional & modern) would at Least compromise that after the initial eval period of the first few dates has passed, that the gal is "expected" to contribute to each date, just as the guy is "expected" to be the leader in paying for the date. And that's pretty darn common for people of lots of different types of people. Also another form is the guy pays for the more expensive dates and the gal treats him in return for low-cost ones, and both neither think about it much.
 Kay9876
Joined: 7/4/2012
Msg: 109
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/25/2015 7:59:38 AM
This is to Norwegian Guy (Msg. 112), and, in a way, it also relates to the opening post.

Msg. #90, written by a man, was the first to say, “Why would I want to get in a committed relationship with someone whose only contribution is their company?” I think his idea has merit, and I expanded on his explanation in my post (Msg. 93).

In both dating and friendship, a person’s company can be enough. There are times when neither party needs to buy or share anything, except personality, wit, kindness, humor, and other qualities that make the (dating or friend) relationship work. The best lovers, in my opinion, are great friends, as well.

But there is a difference between the way just-friends behave with each other and the way romantically involved couples behave. When dating, I want to see and feel the difference.

Two people who have been dating for a while are usually not on a date. Most of the time, they’re behaving as friends. One brings soup to the other who isn’t feeling well. They take the dog out for a walk. She bakes cookies for him, or he checks the antifreeze in her car. And, as suggested, she might take him to Applebee’s for his birthday. In other words, they do day-to-day things that deepen their friendship.

And they date, which is markedly different from friendship. An evening out, regardless of cost, is provided to create or enhance special feelings between them. It doesn’t need to be in an overtly romantic setting; it just needs to show that he cares for her in a way that is different than friendship. In a healthy relationship (which can last for decades), she responds in a way he likes very much.

It’s important, though, that the date is not a play for sex. It must be a play for her heart, at a level appropriate for the current stage of dating. If a man isn't making a play for my heart, then (to me) whatever we're doing feels more like friendship or at attempt to barter for sex than dating.
 ShowboatSupreme
Joined: 11/10/2015
Msg: 110
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/25/2015 8:37:28 AM
^^^
+100

Best post in the thread.
 Dragracer428
Joined: 1/1/2012
Msg: 111
What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/25/2015 10:13:01 AM


And they date, which is markedly different from friendship. An evening out, regardless of cost, is provided to create or enhance special feelings between them. It doesn’t need to be in an overtly romantic setting; it just needs to show that he cares for her in a way that is different than friendship. In a healthy relationship (which can last for decades), she responds in a way he likes very much.

It’s important, though, that the date is not a play for sex. It must be a play for her heart, at a level appropriate for the current stage of dating. If a man isn't making a play for my heart, then (to me) whatever we're doing feels more like friendship or at attempt to barter for sex than dating.



Why is all the onus on him to provide the romance? Is there no responsibility on your part to bring romance to the relationship after it has been established or for that matter while it is being established?
 Kay9876
Joined: 7/4/2012
Msg: 112
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/25/2015 11:25:41 AM
Dragracer, if a woman captures and holds a man's heart, what will he be willing to do for her? And if a man captures and holds a woman's heart, what will she be willing to do for him?

In healthy relationships, romance is uniquely nurtured on both sides.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 113
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who pays
Posted: 12/25/2015 4:13:43 PM
I agree she should at least offer to pay for the date occasionally. Certainly offer to pay for dessert or the tip as you suggest.

If it all worries you then don't suggest going out to eat so much and if she demurs you can air your grievances. Certainly not a $70 meal. She is 50 and presumably has some income I take it. She could buy some movie tickets or other sort of tickets and invite you out. I get that it is still early days but you are being intimate so it is a potential relationship.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 114
sometimes, "OFV" is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 5:48:10 PM
"...it just needs to show that he cares for her in a way that is different than friendship. In a healthy relationship (which can last for decades), she responds in a way he likes very much. "

>>>sometimes, she might enjoy the pleasure of taking him to an event he might like. a concert for his favorite band, a nice dinner after he's had a bad week at work, etc. In other words, he shouldn't have all the fun of treating another human being (as I got told by a gf decades ago). And frankly, being the social director all the time, every date, gets a little bit old. it would be nice if she shows me the places she likes, the events she enjoys so I can see her smile.

Of course if she lacks hobbies and passions in life...then it becomes a different type of romantic relationship, doesn't it? one of those where she's just another person. I've listen to ladies complain they didn't feel like they were special to their man, and well...they couldn't quite point out what it was exactly that made them different from other people, either. not a fun way to go thru life, I imagine, and they don't seem too thrilled about it either during introspective moments.

"It’s important, though, that the date is not a play for sex. It must be a play for her heart,"

>>>I might not use the term "play for the heart", but it should hopefully be a connection of sorts made. what puts the "Friend" in bf or gf should be the enjoyment of being friends. doing things for each other without the purpose of getting laid out of it. that's what keeps it from just being a booty call. but there has to be a connection on the level of personalities.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 115
sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 6:38:16 PM
I prefer the method of flipping a coin to decide who pays. It's fair to both sides. Or doing paper, rock, scissors.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 116
sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 7:13:06 PM

I prefer the method of flipping a coin to decide who pays. It's fair to both sides. Or doing paper, rock, scissors.


Don't forget pulling names out of hat.
 halcyon_skies
Joined: 7/27/2015
Msg: 117
sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 7:14:34 PM

I prefer the method of flipping a coin to decide who pays. It's fair to both sides. Or doing paper, rock, scissors.


I like the new "Free Dinner" slot machines they have opened in Las Vegas casinos.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 118
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sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 7:47:18 PM

I like the new "Free Dinner" slot machines they have opened in Las Vegas casinos.


How do they work? Are you sure they're not just computers hooked up to plentyoffish.com?
 ShowboatSupreme
Joined: 11/10/2015
Msg: 119
sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 8:09:14 PM


I like the new "Free Dinner" slot machines they have opened in Las Vegas casinos.


Never tried those slots at the Circus Circus.

The cigarette smoke, fake squid and morbidly obese customers turn me off.

I prefer higher class casinos myself. Ya know, where a $500 minimum bet is required.

The banter with the asshole gamblers with the ethics of a pig is always enlightening.

YMMV
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 120
sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 8:32:52 PM
if they make fake lobster out of pollack, what do they make fake squid out of? rubber?

I like our casinos. The only gamble I bother with is asking someone out. unlucky at cards, unlucky at...well, anyway. they do a nice job at the entertainment, chubby checker is on tomorrow night. Funny he's still out there, must have bills to pay.
 halcyon_skies
Joined: 7/27/2015
Msg: 121
sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 9:40:38 PM

The cigarette smoke, fake squid and morbidly obese customers turn me off.

I prefer higher class casinos myself. Ya know, where a $500 minimum bet is required.


Since you prefer places that cater to whales, SeaWorld in San Diego would be much closer.
 yougotmeakitten
Joined: 8/30/2014
Msg: 122
sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/25/2015 10:45:32 PM
^^^^So your going to try to pick him up there? Damb Girl, you just proved the old adage ugly goes down to the bone!
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 123
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sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/26/2015 12:43:15 AM

^^^^So your going to try to pick him up there? Damb Girl, you just proved the old adage ugly goes down to the bone!


Oh my God, I only know one other person that spells "damn" like "damb" with a "b" at the end. She was a good friend of mine that moved away a few years ago. It drove me nuts because I had no idea why she was spelling it like that, so I asked her why. She said, "You know, it's the silent b!" Now I sometimes comment Facebook posts with "damb" just to make a joke out of it.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 124
sometimes, OFV is an excuse for other behavior
Posted: 12/26/2015 5:06:09 AM

chubby checker is on tomorrow night. Funny he's still out there, must have bills to pay.


That sounds like the aging rockers, who were big 40 or more years ago but are now senior citizens, who are on their final farewell tour for the fifth or sixth time.
 rockstartrucker82
Joined: 11/22/2015
Msg: 125
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who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 8:53:48 AM

I believe it goes something like this...marriage was created in order to pass on property and continue a legacy. It had nothing to do with love hence nothing to do with fidelity.


Sadly that's completely true. My question is why do girls LOVE the traditional wedding so much? When you actually look into the meaning of the father walking the bride down the aisle, or what bridesmaids exist for, why she takes the man's last name, a wedding is kind of one of the most degrading things you can do to women, but we still keep up that tradition, and so many of them dream of that day.
 ShowboatSupreme
Joined: 11/10/2015
Msg: 126
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 9:18:21 AM
I'm waiting for a big fat Dowry myself...

vvvv

Isn't that a guy's line??
 clamdigger50
Joined: 12/17/2015
Msg: 127
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 9:32:50 AM
I don't think you will get a "big fat Dowry", wrong country, wrong era. But I can guarantee you Showboat, no matter how "independent" and how "equal" and how much of a feminist she proclaims to be - you will be buying a big fat diamond ring (not just for some but the majority).

I find it odd that the majority here are over 40, have jobs, are accomplished, have homes, investments, cars, raised children, married and divorced a few times, seem mature yet the "who pays" debate goes on. How come we women have evolved so much, gained so much yet WE woman hold on to some of this old stuff?
 tatsuwen
Joined: 11/20/2015
Msg: 128
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who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 11:37:20 AM
Personally, I think that is a subject that should come up at the beginning. Like for me, I don't like spending a lot of money on things like going out to eat. If I do I prefer places with low to moderate cost menu items. I would likely suggest other things by the tenth date - like cooking together. I had a boyfriend in SF who was in the financial industry and did well financially. I didn't ask how much he made in the years we spend together but I know from vacations or buying a new car with a check etc. And he always wanted to go out to eat and we were in a serious relationship so he KNEW I didn't make nearly as much as him and disliked going out to eat ( he liked to) we usually split it, Yet, I would gladly have forgone going out to eat as often. I did like it after hiking - nice to go home shower then relax but would gladly done something else. He had a fear of women being gold diggers because his mom is one. I think it should be discussed initially if the man doesn't feel he should pay - should it be split fifty fifty, 60/40, etc. Or one pays one time the other the next. If the meal is always split talk about it before choosing a place as well.
 hemingway234
Joined: 6/6/2015
Msg: 129
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 12:22:46 PM
The man should offer to pay for dinners out. If she's a nice lady, she'll cook for you sometimes, buy little gifts sometimes, give you a backrub, bring you a drink at home, and pick up the drink tab/pay for a show or movie tickets once in awhile when you buy dinner.

That said, the very best women take turns paying for dinner.

You mentioned she is a vegetarian... without much more to go on, she COULD be structured, which is the opposite of nice.

Make sure she's a nice woman... love and sex is not enough.
 RiverEdge
Joined: 12/2/2015
Msg: 130
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 1:25:14 PM

I've taken a woman on ten dates over a period of five weeks. None of the dates were expensive ($20-$70) but she has never offered to chip in or pay. I brought this up after date ten and she took offense, said it was too soon for me to start complaining. My question: How many dates should a man pay for before the woman contributes? And when is it appropriate to bring it up? Thanks all.


op ... lots of different types of relationships ...

Usually when women think it's going to be something that has some staying power, and maybe believe it will last a while ... they are more willing to make efforts in several ways ... that includes chipping in for outings etc. ... in some way, "within their means"

If it's something that's good enough for now, going along for the ride but not expecting it to last long or even desiring that ... they tend to put in less effort .. as you would expect.

This isn't really a women thing or dating thing ... it's a people thing ... When people want something, they put in the effort typically equal to that want.

Your question doesn't really seem to be about money, it's really about trying to determine the others interests based on actions. Maybe you could be a little more direct with her; when trying to determine that, without bringing money into, since there isn't a lot of money involved. Then you can decide whether its something you want to continue or not.

Keep in mind, you're talking an average of 45$, half for you. Women usually spend more getting ready for dates etc. and she may likely be paying her older kids or others for babysitting etc as well.


she took offense, said it was too soon for me to start complaining

I kinda agree with that, given the other posts you added ... Not like you're spending 300-500/wk here.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 131
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who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 2:34:06 PM

Keep in mind, you're talking an average of 45$, half for you. Women usually spend more getting ready for dates etc. and she may likely be paying her older kids or others for babysitting etc as well.


I don't believe this. Women are going to wear nice clothes and jewelry if they go shopping or go out for drinks with friends. They're not going to buy a whole new wardrobe because you asked them to go for supper. The man has expenses too. It was her choice to have children, so that's no excuse for asking the man to pay for ten dates. Think of how silly that sounds if you actually say it. "Hey, I had children with a different man a long time ago, so can you pay for our first ten dates?"
 VeryHappyNewYear2016
Joined: 12/22/2015
Msg: 132
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 2:46:03 PM
Both parties should have something to bring to the table...one may have $, one may have intellect, charm, popularity, good looks, etc.

Each couple decides what their relationship dynamic is.
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