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 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 133
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The issue is with THIS woman. She has a good job has no financial issues, but still is 'old fashioned' and believes the man should pay. Good for her, she can be as tight fisted as she wants to be, it's her choice. So tell her to find a man that's willing to pay to date her.

You can easily find a woman who is more in line with your beliefs.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 134
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 4:28:46 PM
rockstarucker82- "Why do girls LOVE the traditional wedding so much?"
The obvious answer-it's tradition. It's thought about from the time they are little. People don't go into marriage knowing it will fail, they wouldn't get married otherwise.
When women have traditional weddings, they aren't thinking about what certain things meant long ago, they are just thinking about having the day they always dreamed of.
Personally, I find simple weddings just as good, if not better, than more fancy, elaborate weddings.
I've been to two on the beach, very simple, not many frills, but they were both beautiful.
Too many people get caught up in the wedding itself and not enough on the marriage.
 clamdigger50
Joined: 12/17/2015
Msg: 135
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 4:30:29 PM
Relationship dynamic? I think both should be "bringing something to the table" and I'm sorry but "charm" or "good looks" does not equate to $$$...unless you're a hooker. I don't see too many women opening their wallets. And by this logic, why aren't women paying the expenses to date an attractive guy? Why is it that some women think "Im an attractive woman so HE should pay"?

VVVV edit to add - I have yet to have a man even remotely think he was entitled to sex after a date. Never, ever. And I would say that the vast majority of women expect a man to pay for the date and the vast majority of men paying for this date do NOT expect sex in exchange.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 136
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 4:35:37 PM
Clamdigger50- You are correct, both people should bring something to the table.
Not all women feel entitled, I don't.
They do have male equivalents-the type that think that because they pay, it's a given they will get laid.
Both types are to be avoided!
 VeryHappyNewYear2016
Joined: 12/22/2015
Msg: 137
why ?
Posted: 12/26/2015 4:43:17 PM

Relationship dynamic? I think both should be "bringing something to the table" and I'm sorry but "charm" or "good looks" does not equate to $$$...unless you're a hooker. I don't see too many women opening their wallets. And by this logic, why aren't women paying the expenses to date an attractive guy? Why is it that some women think "Im an attractive woman so HE should pay"?


That is what I said, both should have something to offer.

I did not state that charm & good looks equated to $$$

However, IMO, women who present (or are) charming & attractive probably do better socially, particularly in the dating arena.

Each person hae a right to decide what traits are a priority to them in mate selection. Not every man wants a feminist. Not every man gets an erection thinking about a woman as an equal.

I am sure many women do pay for an attractive man.

I cannot speak for the thought process of some women who subscribe to the theory "Im an attractive woman so HE should pay" but my thought process is: either gender, if they are sought after, they can then pick & choose from among those who pursue them. That is their prerogative & it certainly is mine.

We all have a right to choose & based on our choices, we can be successful or not in managing our romantic lives.
 SLAFFA
Joined: 8/13/2007
Msg: 138
why ?
Posted: 12/26/2015 5:33:45 PM
SELECTIVE Equality = a long and winding road probably filled with potholes and detours for most but we are all free to choose our own path.
 RiverEdge
Joined: 12/2/2015
Msg: 139
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 5:50:27 PM

Think of how silly that sounds if you actually say it. "Hey, I had children with a different man a long time ago, so can you pay for our first ten dates?"


Nobody actually said that. You're exaggerating.
 ShowboatSupreme
Joined: 11/10/2015
Msg: 140
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 8:54:07 PM

If you like Piña Coladas, getting caught in the rain
If you're not into yoga, if you have half a brain
If you like making love at midnight in the dunes on the cape
I'm the love that you've looked for write to me and escape
 loveisatemple
Joined: 3/28/2014
Msg: 141
who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 10:25:19 PM
"I would just like it if she occasionally said "I got this one" or "let me take care of the tip." Is there anything wrong with that?

To be fair, I should point out that she has offered to cook for me. In fact, we've cooked for each other. Again, everything about the relationship has been wonderful except when the restaurant check arrives.

I'd be fine with the "whoever initiates the date should pay" argument. But because of her "traditional" values, she would never be the one to ask me out, so that rules doesn't help me.

Yes, we've both made efforts to please each other that don't involve $ (cookies and "snogging" included).

The only thing that has been one-sided has been paying in restaurants. My opinion is that, by this point, she should also "treat" me sometimes, but she has pretty traditional and old fashioned values."
--------------


So, op, have you said the above to her and if not, why not?

You have the option of :

1 drawing a line or
2 continuing to make her do something.

If you want anybody to take you seriously, you will do number one.

If I was in the situation, I would be honest and if that led to no compromise, that is the end.
You cannot continue to do the same thing and complain, though. It just makes you look like you're passive aggressive.

My advice is to never switch terms midstream. It feels like a bait and switch, like you want credit for being generous, while keeping score resentfully.

Don't do things to get things. Only do things because you want to, and be consistent from the start or people don't see you as trustworthy.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 142
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who pays
Posted: 12/26/2015 11:13:06 PM
Haven't read through this thread, but -

I've taken a woman on ten dates over a period of five weeks. None of the dates were expensive ($20-$70) but she has never offered to chip in or pay. I brought this up after date ten and she took offense, said it was too soon for me to start complaining. My question: How many dates should a man pay for before the woman contributes? And when is it appropriate to bring it up? Thanks all.

I have to concede that whatever someone likes, they like...if both people involved are ok with however things are on any front, then that's all that matters. I mean, hey, we've long since established in here that if both people in a relationship like vomiting on each other, then it's their business and no one else's.

But, personally, the above OP situation would disgust me immensely, and cause me to lose respect very quickly for this woman. I would probably be gone before the third date - and that's assuming the low possibility that there'd even be a first date for me with this kind of person. This going on for 10 dates is not the only thing that would repulse me, but I'd find it possibly more repulsive that she actually take offense if I brought the subject up for discussion.

Eeeww.
 Viper1j
Joined: 2/6/2015
Msg: 143
who pays
Posted: 12/27/2015 12:31:44 AM

I've taken a woman on ten dates over a period of five weeks. None of the dates were expensive ($20-$70) but she has never offered to chip in or pay. I brought this up after date ten and she took offense, said it was too soon for me to start complaining. My question: How many dates should a man pay for before the woman contributes? And when is it appropriate to bring it up? Thanks all.


If she didn't get naked after, she's a user and gold digger.

RUN FORREST RUN!
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 144
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History
who pays
Posted: 12/27/2015 1:16:35 AM

Nobody actually said that. You're exaggerating.


No. I was responding to the statement that she should never have to pay for a date because she decided to have children or because it costs her more money to get ready for the date, which is a completely ridiculous statement.
 Anand_scientist
Joined: 11/27/2015
Msg: 145
who pays
Posted: 12/27/2015 3:39:07 AM
When I ask a woman to dinner, it's my invitation, and I'm more than happy to cover the entire bill. I don't demand "going splitsies" on dinners and entertainment. If she offers to pay her portion, I would respect her choice and not make her feel uncomfortable, by not creating an argument about it and forcing her to take my gift. However, I mightn't be inclined to ask her out again. (I realize it's because of sub-human garbage - some of which is characterized in this very thread - that a woman may feel beholden to sex with him, if she accepts his invitation. In my world, a dinner invitation is a dinner invitation, and not some unspoken invitation to take advantage of her.) I cover ALL dates, and when we're in a relationship, I do my utmost to continue making her happy.

What do I expect when I wine and dine a lady? That she is comfortable, happy, and enjoying herself. If she isn't, I'll remedy the situation according to her needs. If she takes a ride in my car, I pick her up and drop her off on her time. If she doesn't feel I'm the right guy, she may go on to find somebody more appropriate. I haven't lost anything by treating a nice lady to a great evening out... not my time, money, not even a once-off invitation.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 146
who pays
Posted: 12/27/2015 4:13:29 AM

When I ask a woman to dinner, it's my invitation, and I'm more than happy to cover the entire bill.


If a buddy of yours asks you to go out for a beer or some pub grub, does he pick up the whole tab while you get a free night because he's the one who asked? And vice versa-if you make arrangements to get together with one or more buddies, do you pick up the tab because you made the arrangements to get together? I wish my friends would treat me to a free night out when they call to get together. If they don't like that idea, I could always try to guilt them into it by saying "I'm old fashion."
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 147
who pays
Posted: 12/27/2015 7:24:28 AM
When I eat I expect to pay for it - I feel that's just a responsibility as an adult. Whether I am on a date, with friends or eating by myself. As an adult I don't consume things I can't afford. But - that's just me. When in a relationship I tend to pick up the check every so often for both, but still always offer to and expect to pay for my own half of things.

Earlier on I am usually trying to avoid obligation (unless of course I am fine with it and/or someone is trying to physically fight me for the check). Someone always paying to me makes me feel like I can't pay my own way and when someone says "I can get this" my knee jerk reaction is "yeah, so can I" - yes, that's all in my head, and I am somewhat independent about stuff like this - but it is what it is.

Anyhow, at the end of the day no matter what anyone says here - the dynamic of your relationship has to work for the two of you. If this bothers you and not her you may not have the same views on finances. If everything else is perfect for you both try to compromise with her on this in discussion - communication is a huge part of any working relationship. If you can't discuss and work around this to make it so that you are both happy with the results, it's possible you aren't a match.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 148
the one not in the driver seat.
Posted: 12/27/2015 12:07:49 PM
why do modern women keep up the wedding tradition? maybe b/c the tradition includes them being the center of the attention--ie, "its the bride's day". who wouldn't like that?

why do modern women want equal pay but old fashioned dating? again, who wouldn't want to be treated like Dad paid for everything when they were a kid? Not to mention, if she's thinking about having kids with the guy, and he can't afford her meal...how's he going to cover a trip to Disney World?

If a bud asks you out, does he pick up the tab? sometimes. Some friends take turns, my father and my godfather his friend, would throw some money into a kitty which paid for outings (and when I was old enough, I was the one holding the kitty, probably to teach me how to pay for bills and get back change and figure out tips and such). When I was at university, myself and some of the other broke students would go out w/ older coworkers not burdened with such debt. at the pizzeria we'd stare at the menu finding what we could afford, and ordering water b/c it was free. sometimes, the older coworker with us would just say, "hey, I got it, don't worry about it" or would order a pitcher of soda for everyone to have. The older fellows just wanted to have a good time, and while they weren't all that richer than us, they didn't want to think so hard about how much things cost--just spread the bill around.

it seems to me that the gfs who were really into me, thought I was actually attractive, those were the women where there wasn't a question about who paid--I wasn't trying to impress them, and they really wanted my company. It was the women who were a little out of my league, or who had to be won over for some reason, that the issue of "who pays for alla dis, I coulda been home watching TV" comes up.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 149
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the one not in the driver seat.
Posted: 12/27/2015 1:21:59 PM
I've never really had this problem. Most people around here are pretty forward thinking. People just assume they're paying for themselves unless the guy makes it clear he wants to treat the girl. I'm not even unusual for the woman to buy the man coffee or a meal. I really don't see anything wrong with the guy paying for the first date if he's the one asking, but ten dates seems a little silly, especially when the's "offended" when he actually communicates with her about what he wants.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 150
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What does old-fashioned values even mean
Posted: 12/27/2015 3:29:20 PM
Kay,

In both dating and friendship, a person’s company can be enough. There are times when neither party needs to buy or share anything, except personality, wit, kindness, humor, and other qualities that make the (dating or friend) relationship work. The best lovers, in my opinion, are great friends, as well.

I totally agree. But His company isn't enough for you, as...

When dating, I want to see and feel the difference.

... you want to see and feel the difference (cash register "cha-ching") to get over that hump. Obviously romanticism, the non-platonic gear that things are in between the two people, yes, I totally understand that part being essential. Although this can be hazy in many situations, even wanted to be hazy by some where one can't tell the difference between platonic & beyond-platonic (the "friends first" game), I get what you're saying on that level totally. To me, That should be enough for a date. To you though, as you said, it doesn't feel like a date unless he's paying the bills on them.

Two people who have been dating for a while are usually not on a date. Most of the time, they’re behaving as friends.

I disagree. It loses the honeymoon phase for most, and for some, both of their behaviors & expressions are just platonic 100% of the time -- but most of the time, no, not quite. As a single guy sitting at a bar seeing a guy and a girl sit at the bar down near me, with the gal being pretty cute, you watch them to see if she's very possibly single or not. You can tell whether they're a couple -- or possibly or very possibly not a couple. A majority of the time when they are, you figure it out in observation without having to stare at the them endlessly. So I disagree that their behavior is the same as two people who are JUST friends. Obviously two people Hitting It Off on a date or are in the Honeymoon phase can be sensed instantly. Many times you see people who've been bf/gf for a while showing basic PDA (arm around the other; head leaning on the guy when the other guy is yakking about sports endlessly, etc).

But yes, if you've been dating for a while, a friendship grows -- it grows during dating. And if you were friends for a while before dating (someone from work, in a group of friends who you always got along well with but one was always dating someone else), you'd see that just after the first couple dates, too -- even before being a couple or dating for a while. But my point is, just because an actual friendship has been established, doesn't mean you're not going out on Dates. Ever hear couples (notably with kids) who are in too "blah" of a relationship be asked "So when's the last time you guys actually went out on a Date??", followed by a reminder that that is something ya should do.

And, as suggested, she might take him to Applebee’s for his birthday.

And she might take him to Applebees for his birthday on date #x, because it happens to be his birthday. But some gals (flipping hair) can't deal with that and may buy him a birthday shot and a beer at the next place after Applebees. :)

An evening out, regardless of cost, is provided to create or enhance special feelings between them.

But it is about cost. It's about (not) costing You. I understand it's the act of the guy being the "leader", leading you and presenting you with the date... indirectly to "win" you over because it's still the getting-to-know-ya phase. Of course, with the OP here -- it's date #10, over a month (including other things had between them). They're beyond the courting phase. To me, that's dating for a while. You could make the same argument requiring a guy to buy you a gift for every date, too. You could say it's not about the cost of the treasure, it doesn't have to be expensive, but until you're dating for a while, it doesn't feel like a date if he doesn't buy you a gift.

My point is just like buy-her-a-gift-for-every-date, it's not about his shared company and bonding to build a (romantic) friendship that is all that's required. Just as you and I would both roll eyes at someone Requiring a gift for every date (again, it's "not about the cost") to Feel like it's a date -- I roll my eyes (at slightly lesser degree; mainly because it's (too) prevalent) at those who can't Feel like it's a date unless he pays for Everything, past the early getting-to-know-ya-phase.
 Canandaigua_Momma
Joined: 12/16/2015
Msg: 151
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who pays
Posted: 12/28/2015 7:07:39 AM
When with a guy who really turns me on of course we take turns paying!
I like being with him, he likes being with me. We are both happy and we both benefit from seeing each other.
What is not to enjoy in that kind of dating situation?

My kids are young adults, yet even if they weren't...it is not like my date made me have children.
If he is a father of young kids, he also has babysitting costs. Maybe his children are older, like mine.
If not a father, good for him for that earlier decision, too. One can't feel another "owes" them childcare costs.

My method has been to not wrestle over a dinner check.
I sometimes find the server and give him/her my AMEX card when visiting the ladies room.
They typically don't say anything, yet I think guys find that very refreshing at times.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 152
who pays
Posted: 12/28/2015 7:23:30 AM

When with a guy who really turns me on of course we take turns paying!


What about a guy who doesn't really turn you on? Does that mean he has to pay the bill because he failed to really turn you on, and that's his punishment for not doing so?
 Canandaigua_Momma
Joined: 12/16/2015
Msg: 153
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who pays
Posted: 12/28/2015 7:31:40 AM
To Maleman999:

If a future date is clearly not on the horizon with a man, I naturally offer to pay for whatever I ate or drank.
There are guys out there that I was totally into, yet they didn't wish to see me again. That's how the cookie crumbles.
My post assumes that we are on date 6, 7, or 8 whatever. I do well at my job and share in the costs of dating.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 3/29/2014
Msg: 154
the one not in the driver seat.
Posted: 12/28/2015 1:26:37 PM

I've never really had this problem. Most people around here are pretty forward thinking.

Same here. But it's not because people just assume they're paying for themselves. It's because people seem to be adults and able to work it out without the tit-for-tat score-keeping described in these sorts of threads.

It really is simple, people. If you care about who pays, then match up with someone who has the same perspective as you, whatever that happens to be. If you don't care about who pays, then you have a lot more options. Do we really need 7 pages to figure that out?

I'm actually more interested in why people get so bent out of shape that other people they'll never date, or even meet have different opinion/preference/rule around paying for first meet, first date, subsequent dates, or even when living together.
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 155
the one not in the driver seat.
Posted: 12/28/2015 5:37:10 PM
"" The price of anything is the amount of life you exchange for it."" - Thoreau




Short, shorter, shortest, shortbread,,,,,,,,cookies.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 156
the one not in the driver seat.
Posted: 12/28/2015 6:13:21 PM
"I'm actually more interested in why people get so bent out of shape that other people they'll never date, or even meet have different opinion/preference/rule around paying for first meet, first date, subsequent dates, or even when living together. "

>>>I'll take a WAG what gets them in a tizzy is that...someone's conducting their own life, in a way that counters how they conduct their own life. It makes them question their beliefs, moral compass reading, or whatever other guidance they use. They don't want to think they might be cheap, or not earning enough to not care, or they worry they might be caught on their secret that they're really hoping to get some kind of a trade out of this.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 157
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History
who pays
Posted: 12/28/2015 9:44:11 PM
It is true that marriage has been and is often an arrangement for survival, to produce the heirs and love has nothing to do with it all.

That women still take the name of the man, vow to love forever etc., amazes me. Thankfully the "obey" has mostly disappeared from the script now. Along with "man and wife". I don't know why girls still dream of the fantasy wedding, the dress which costs a fortune to be worn for such a short time etc. often leaving them in debt and it is all over in a few hours. I guess they need some fairy tales in their life and that is one way to have it, as adults. Marrying because you already have children or about to, and wanting to make the partnership legal, I get. Walking down the aisle in the white dress with your children in tow or pregnant, is a kind of a travesty IMO.
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