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 FooledBySociety
Joined: 1/9/2016
Msg: 82
LADIES - Money always pushes Height to the sidePage 4 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)
Damselfish.....you're quite an old troll
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 83
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/13/2016 4:13:56 PM

Maleman: Villechaize killed himself after many years of suicide attempts. Why in the world would you bring him up as a model for short men?

I think what he was saying was tongue-in-cheek -- meaning there IS a way to get "over" being short. Of course, Mini-Me and the Fantasy Island guy aren't models for guys who are short -- they're midgets/"little people" -- so they don't represent the general public of general "short guys" (as short as a short girl to under 5'9" or under 5'8"/5'7", depending on region/country).

if I had musical talent, I’d be on a completely different level dating-wise. Indeed I know some pretty worthless aging musicians who play in bar bands that have groupies.

I think that you'd need to be locally famous to some degree. Saying you play the guitar/drums/bass will garner an "Oh, really..." and help draw a spark for some sub-cultural demographics, and can only help in any demographic at least to a small degree to help tilt the waters... but it's only going to be a completely different level dating-wise if you're locally "known" playing at the bars around town (or more obviously). Not just musical talent!

Men feel the same way about weight. Everyone knows "average" means fat and "a few extra pounds" means morbidly obese. I think men are a lot more open in real life too.

I don't know if I fully agree with that. Yeah, some guys, to some extent. But the gals seeing a number aren't necessarily running because they believe 5'8" really means 5'5". Sure, that only exacerbates the issue... where the issue is different than body shape or facial structure... it's more like them seeing it as a low #, and being online & more picky, they're going to want to find that feeling of security standing next to "a man". Whereas in real life, she being a short gal could be standing next to the guy who's only 1 inch taller than her in her heels, and still feel that, due to the presence he has -- even though he's a bit shorter than a higher % of guys in the room.

With guys and judging the weight/body-type thing, if the gal's got adequate pics, we can see what she means by it -- which is easier to come by than shorter guys in pics (which require good views & comparisons to common aspects of the environment). Many times we can see in the pics that the gal is not average, and in reality, is a botch above A Few Extra Pounds. But sometimes her pics match her selection, and we have to take her word for it (but are prepared it could be off). I'm sure gals do the same on height.

Many ladies prefer tall men just like many men prefer bigger boobs.

Although you got flack for that, there is truth to that. However, you'll see far many guys with women who have a nicely structured/symmetrical face & good body-shape with a small chest, than a gal with a guy who has a nicely structured/symmetrical face & good body-shape who's noticeably short. He'd have to be More than merely cute/attractive to be on that level to match up with cute/attractive women with small chests.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 84
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/14/2016 5:35:57 AM

I met a guy who was 5'7" and fell in love instantly in real life but would tend to pass on a guy whose profile showed that height, for instance. Would be thinking he was not even that height in actuality and adding a bit.


I had a similar experience, my first LTR of 5 years was with a woman that was 5.7 and weighed more than me. I would have tended not to give her a chance and not contact her if I had been using online dating.

But I much prefer on line dating to meeting by chance in real life.

Same experience, different conclusion.

I had done a thread in the past about the differences between who you meet online and meeting by chance in real life.

Real world Vs Internet profile, would you still date the same person?
https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts15817387.aspx
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 85
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/14/2016 6:15:53 AM

Many ladies prefer tall men just like many men prefer bigger boobs.


Wanting a woman with big breasts is more a mild preference than a non-negotiable requirement. I have seen many women with relatively small chest sizes with boyfriends or husbands.
 Llove2laughtoo
Joined: 1/11/2016
Msg: 87
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/14/2016 4:18:56 PM

Msg: 73
My failures depress me. I’m collapsing rapidly underneath them and just grasping at deus ex machina straws at this point, as evidenced by the $50 worth of Powerball tickets I’ve purchased over the past week. Hopefully $1.3 billion is enough to make a very large percentage of women overlook my negative physical attributes, but I have my doubts.


Being in a relationship is not the key to happiness. It surprises me that a lot of people expect that a relationship will fix everything wrong in their lives. If you aren’t happy single, you won’t be happy in a relationship.

A person needs to find themselves first, and solve any past issues before beginning a life with another person. Happiness comes from within.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 89
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/14/2016 4:43:44 PM
“Many ladies prefer tall men just like many men prefer bigger boobs.”

“Wanting a woman with big breasts is more a mild preference than a non-negotiable requirement. I have seen many women with relatively small chest sizes with boyfriends or husbands.”

It should also be noted that you cannot search by breast size on any legitimate dating site that I’m aware of (and I’m pretty much aware of them all). Most women would never include whatever they consider to be a short man in any of their searches (hence I very rarely get any unsolicited views on any dating site), whereas men cannot exclude small-breasted women from their searches. So small-breasted women receive an equal amount of initial attention on OLD as busty women and are given the opportunity to otherwise impress men that see their profiles, whereas short men receive 90% less initial views than tall men receive and have far fewer opportunities to otherwise impress women because most of the women are not looking at their profiles.

Of course, the biggest difference between small-breasted women and short men is that if a woman truly believes being small-breasted is preventing her from getting the dates she wants, the surgery to correct that issue is only about $5000 and requires only a few days of recovery, whereas the surgery to make me average height costs 10 to 20 times at much and is a year-long process. If I had that much money to toss around, I’d obviously be rich and wouldn’t need the surgery. I’m not really so bothered by my height I’d get the surgery if I was rich (I’ve learned to live with having to use a stepping stool for high shelves) – I’m just bothered that it reduces my dating pool so much and would much rather increase my pool without surgery.

Sweet Danimal’s post about Tom Cruise’s profile is priceless.

On the Letitia\Dragonbytes dialogue: As I’ve said before, there is a zero percent chance my ex-girlfriend would have ever responded to a message from me or sent a first contact email to me or even browsed to find my profile if we had been counting on a dating website to meet. I don’t think she had a strong height preference but she definitely would not have considered dating someone who wasn’t white. It took her almost a year of being forced to work with me and getting to know me to decide she had a crush on me. On a traditional dating website I would have just been “Next” or “Delete unread,” because you don’t have a year to convince someone you are worth dating in the OLD universe.* Yet, oddly, the majority of my dates have come from OLD, but all on sites/apps without height listings. Which I think tells you something right there: apparently I am worth dating so long as women do not know how tall I am.

"If you aren’t happy single, you won’t be happy in a relationship."

This is incorrect -- I was very happy in my relationship with the woman just mentioned, even though before it I was not a happy person. It WAS a dysfunctional relationship, but that was mostly from her point-of-view, and I agreed with her point of view, which is why I let her go when she gave me an ultimatum. But I was way happier when I was dating any of the women I actually liked dating than I was/am single (I was not so happy dating women that I didn't want to be dating, of course, though, still, sometimes it was better than sitting home alone watching TV on a Friday night). My best friend has been through about 20 years of this, and she often says it's like a light switch: inside a relationship, I'm doing some Tom Cruise couch jumping, outside of a relationship she keeps waiting for me to hang myself. Like some people were born to play football or born to be politicians or born to be dancers or born to be parents or born to be police officers -- I was born to be in a relationship. I'm just a failure at it. That's my goal, and everything I do is for the purpose of getting me a date and hopefully eventually a romantic relationship -- filmmaking, working out/athletics, education -- everything is for dates. That's what makes me happy, not all that other crap. We're all just going to die anyway and what good will all your hobbies and pasttimes and careers will have done you at that point?

Goddamn that Powerball. I figured since there was a 1 in 300,000,000 chance that someone would end up with all of my negative physical attributes, I had a pretty good shot at it since apparently I beat the hell out of odds like that, but unfortunately I'm only good for negative odds, not positive odds. So I wouldn't rub my head for luck if I were you -- you'll find yourself struck by lightning while being attacked by a shark.


*Just to clarify: I did not actually spend a year convincing my ex-girlfriend to date me. I made no attempt at all to get her to date me and in fact had no romantic interest in her at all upon meeting her and never even flirted with her prior to her admitting she had a crush on me. This is what sucks about life. I spend 9 years on this site sending out 10,000 “hand-crafted” emails, studying the fine art of profile writing, improving myself, refining my technique and basically treating this place like a real job and have nothing to show for it; I spent one year putting absolutely no effort into a mousy co-worker and a girlfriend I never asked for or wanted falls into my lap. WTF?
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 90
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/14/2016 5:51:52 PM

the surgery to correct that issue is only about $5000 and requires only a few days of recovery, whereas the surgery to make me average height costs 10 to 20 times at much and is a year-long process.

More than just a year-long process -- tons of pain and very very daunting. They literally break your legs, create gaps, chisel braces in to make them grow back... repeat. Plus, you can't go from 5'4" to 6'2". More like get to 5'8" maybe, that's about it. But back to that point -- breast size & guy-height are different concepts underneath it all.

Though a guy that's a "boob guy" would not be interested in dating a woman with a flat chest. It just wouldn't physically attract him/turn him on.

I disagree it goes That far for a guy Merely being a "boob guy". He'd have to be on the smaller % of more extreme "boob guys". With a hot gal who has small breasts, a mere "boob guy" who can't otherwise so easily get said girl on that level Is definitely going to roll in her direction. He's going to end up taking it/her for granted after the honeymoon phase, even though she's about as hot a gal as he could feasibly get, but, there's "something missing" in his mind. :) With most girls, if he's shorter than her, it's just a "I'm not attracted". He'd need fame/known riches and other outstanding circumstances on his or her end for her to be game for that.

there is a zero percent chance my ex-girlfriend would have ever responded to a message from me or sent a first contact email to me or even browsed to find my profile if we had been counting on a dating website to meet. I don’t think she had a strong height preference but she definitely would not have considered dating someone who wasn’t white. It took her almost a year of being forced to work with me and getting to know me to decide she had a crush on me. On a traditional dating website I would have just been “Next” or “Delete unread,” because you don’t have a year to convince someone you are worth dating in the OLD universe.

You're right -- online, no way. For short guys (notably below average height), OLD should just be an option churning in the background of their computer, not in the foreground of their dating life. A possibility, churning as time rolls, but with low % expectations of any fruit falling from the tree, when ideal two-way connections are in mind. One's going to have a low batting average online if they're missing the numeric & categorical attributes that most of the opp-sex want (and they want too).
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 91
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/14/2016 8:44:00 PM

A person needs to find themselves first


Some people do a really excellent job of hiding from themselves.


It surprises me that a lot of people expect that a relationship will fix everything wrong in their lives. If you aren’t happy single, you won’t be happy in a relationship.


Well, Disney never really did define what "happily ever after" meant, exactly, so a lot of people arrived at their own conclusion that it meant life turned perfect.
 LJane_6
Joined: 6/10/2015
Msg: 92
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/15/2016 3:50:01 AM
It used to matter to me. I'm 5"6, and prefered the guy to be taller. That is until I met a guy about my height who I was instantly drawn to. I can't explain why, there was just something about his personality, confidence, intelligence that made him more sexy than most taller guys I've met. In the end though, he turned me down :'( What I'm saying is that no, it doesn't matter if you have a great personality! TBH though I still prefer to be at least matched in height rather than me being the taller one, but in the case of the guy I'm referring to, it wouldn't have been a deal breaker even if he was a bit shorter.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 93
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/15/2016 6:58:47 AM
“Plus, you can't go from 5'4 to 6'2. More like get to 5'8 maybe, that's about it.”

Well, I did say “average height,” not “far above average height.”

“For short guys (notably below average height), OLD should just be an option churning in the background of their computer, not in the foreground of their dating life.”

This is a double-edged sword, though. The women who would date someone with my physical characteristics make up less than 1% of the population. Finding them in the real world is actually MORE difficult than finding them online, because women in the real world don’t walk around with nametags that say “Hi, my name is Lisa and I’m fine with dating a short guy” like they essentially do on Match. Even worse, the non-existent nametag also doesn’t include information about relationship status, which is a problem for every guy. And on top of that, you know a woman on a dating site is interested in dating (rare exception: the WIPs of the world who respond to every email); regardless of her relationship status or her actual interest in you, you have no idea if a woman in the real world is receptive to dating. Do you know how many freakin’ times I’ve met a woman in the real world and got a good, flirty dialogue going only to discover she had a boyfriend? A waste of anywhere from minutes to months that never happens in OLD (to men, anyway). Although plenty of different kinds of time wasting happens.

So most OLD sites are HIGHLY efficient by comparison, but they also suffer from “perfect partner syndrome” that’s much worse on inferior people like myself so it definitely cuts both ways. And of course, as you get older, there are less and less “available” people anyway, and many of the ones that are available are so because they are damaged, so the process just feeds on itself, making it practically impossible for a bottom 1%-er in his 40s to find someone “normal” that is even available through real world means and almost the best way to find any of the few available single people is with a tool like OLD. Outside of a club or bar (again, the real world equivalent of OLD in many ways), I couldn’t tell you the last time I met a single woman close to my age in real life, regardless of her appearance, personality or preferences. But according to POF, there are some 5000 of them active during the last 24 hours within 25 miles of me – just scattered all over the area and apparently not going to any of the places I go (probably because most of them have kids and I don’t go anywhere there are kids except movie theaters).
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 94
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/15/2016 2:09:45 PM

TBH though I still prefer to be at least matched in height rather than me being the taller one, but in the case of the guy I'm referring to, it wouldn't have been a deal breaker even if he was a bit shorter.

I don't think there's much of an issue of girls wanting guys who are at least matched in height. I think the controversy comes when said gal is wearing overtly-high heels and is "faux taller" than the guy, or about as tall as an average guy. "Faux taller" is a controversy if she's measuring it when wearing Big heels. Tall women wearing Big heels (5'8"+4" heels), although preferring guys taller than she requiring 6'1", isn't going to be so stringent -- and really isn't an issue, besides a different issue of her wearing too big of heels thus nixing her options.

This is a double-edged sword, though. The women who would date someone with my physical characteristics make up less than 1% of the population.

1% is a big number, though. Most walk by more than 100 different people in a day, which means every single day you'd walk by 1 who'd say sure to a roll in the hay if at 1%. I see what you mean though -- there is an advantage for you online, If it shows height requirements, as you point out. But IRL, your chances are Higher with one teetering. Say a gal wants a guy 5'6" or higher on Match. IRL, your chances would be higher with her IRL than online. Technically with any higher height she put in her profile, but that one would be realistic to run with, if you were taller than her in person.

What I meant about putting focus IRL is because there's still such a LOW pool to choose from online, especially if you're only taking a real gander at gals who want 5'4" or lower in their height requirements. IRL, pound for pound, your chances are better. What would be a 5'6" requirement for a 5'1" gal, would be more like 5'4" if you're otherwise attractive in her eyes. Standards as far as length & girth aren't as strong.

To garner most of the benefits of this though, it's not just being IRL, but socializing *without* putting yourself in the friend-zone, making social connections, etc. Nothing will happen fast. You have to be willing to "take a sack" (football analogy), etc. But if at the end of the day, feeling so many uninterested girls passing you over is OK, then over time, things will add up.

I would utilize all your female friends to your advantage to mingle outside the friend-zone (which requires an at least subtle non-FZ front put on). Want to talk about advantages? That's a big advantage.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 95
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/15/2016 3:00:51 PM
I have to be honest, I don't know many girls that take height as seriously as the ones brought up in this thread. Just like I don't know very many guys that will date a girl that weighs 170 but not 180. I'm barly 5'8, probably only 5'7 and a half, and I've had way more dates than other guys that are 6 feet tall. Mostly because they weren't good at dating or socially awkward in some other way. No matter what your "weakness" is, you can still outdo other people when it comes to dating and building attraction. Sure, there will be a few women that do the online shopping thing and will only meet men of a certain height or men that make over 6 figures, but let's be realistic, that's not the average woman we're talking about. There are so many things you can do to get better at dating and getting attention from women that it's not even worth worrying about your weight or other things you can't change.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 96
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/15/2016 7:33:37 PM

No matter what your "weakness" is, you can still outdo other people when it comes to dating and building attraction.


It seems easy enough to prove or disprove that contention.

Coma can change his height to 5.4 and attempt to get dates. Then report back.

OR pull a Cyrano :

If Coma's GF isn't on-board with that, maybe HawkingJr will let either IG or Coma take over his profile and attempt to get dates using their bravado.

I think this would be a very interesting experiment. What do you guys think?
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 97
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/15/2016 7:43:02 PM

It WAS a dysfunctional relationship, but that was mostly from her point-of-view, and I agreed with her point of view, which is why I let her go when she gave me an ultimatum.


So what was the ultimatum?

I ask because I have been there before, presented with an ultimatum from my GF.

I thought it was emotional blackmail, but much later I thought I should have gone alone with it. For me, after a 5 year exclusive relationship, the ultimatum involved getting married.

What was your ultimatum?
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 98
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/15/2016 8:45:08 PM

It seems easy enough to prove or disprove that contention.

Coma can change his height to 5.4 and attempt to get dates. Then report back.

OR pull a Cyrano :

If Coma's GF isn't on-board with that, maybe HawkingJr will let either IG or Coma take over his profile and attempt to get dates using their bravado.


Meeting people in real life will always be easier than getting dates from online dating websites, no matter how tall you are. The point is that men would rather blame their height, or their income, or basically anything but their lack of effort. There are guys shorter than me that are able to get women that I can't because those women are into their style and their personality. Even being in a wheelchair doesn't stop people with a good attitude. I've met women on here that were in wheelchairs a long time ago. I'm not saying that some women don't stick to taller guys or black guys or whatever it may be, but don't assume everyone is closed minded.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 99
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/15/2016 11:29:49 PM

The point is that men would rather blame their height, or their income, or basically anything but their lack of effort... I'm not saying that some women don't stick to taller guys or black guys or whatever it may be, but don't assume everyone is closed minded.

I have a co-worker who basically does the same job I do. We share the same office, live in the same town, his age, looks and features are comparable to mine - heck, even our birthdays are only a few days apart. His POF profile text in here is shorter than mine, but it's nothing special - and his pictures are terrible.

The key differences between the two of us...
1) He's got kids - two boys. I have none.
2) He's 5' 11'' - I'm 5' 8"

I've tried messaging dozens of women through this site, and struggle to get even ONE date a month. He's lining up three a week. Often the same women I messaged and was ignored or turned down.

The other key difference - is the guy is a bum. He's an alcoholic. He's fallen off the wagon so many times he has to get his breath tested 3 times a day or he loses custody of his kids. His hands shake, and he gets kidney stones often. His dad is one of the bosses at work, so he shows up whenever the hell he feels like it, which is about 30% of the time. He doesn't care, because the less he makes, the less he has to pay in child support. A real prince. I have plenty of job security because nobody counts on him for anything anymore.

I'm sorry - but I don't believe it's all about 'effort' being the reason why some people lack success in online dating. Mine is but one example of how a couple demographic differences DO make a huge difference in how people view us romantically. If you want to keep pointing fingers at me and comment on the quality of messages, quality of choices, style and appearance of myself and my attitude as reasons, go ahead. I've changed my approach and style and profile a few dozen times, with no significant chance EVER happening.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 100
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 12:15:28 AM

I'm sorry - but I don't believe it's all about 'effort' being the reason why some people lack success in online dating. Mine is but one example of how a couple demographic differences DO make a huge difference in how people view us romantically. If you want to keep pointing fingers at me and comment on the quality of messages, quality of choices, style and appearance of myself and my attitude as reasons, go ahead. I've changed my approach and style and profile a few dozen times, with no significant chance EVER happening.


Sure, I don't doubt that things like height or income would make a difference if you set up two identical profiles, but we have to compare things that are congruent to make a case. I doubt that you're saying exactly what he's saying when he messages women. Do looks, height, size, and money matter? They do a little bit, but not as much as you think they do. Being insecure about them is the attraction killer. It's silly to focus on things you can't change. Slim women get more emails than larger ladies, but that doesn't stop them from doing online dating or going to clubs to meet men. Guys that make a million dollars a year are comparing themselves to guys that make ten million a year. Guys that are 6 foot tall feel insecure because they compare themselves to their friends that are 6'2. Girls that are gorgeous feel insecure that no one takes them seriously for the work they do or their intelligence. You have to get out of the attitude of comparing yourself to other people that get more dates, or other people that are taller and find ways of approaching women online and offline that work for you. I'm also 5'8 and I know you can get more than one meet up a month.
 papertiger4
Joined: 1/5/2016
Msg: 101
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 12:50:14 AM

The other key difference - is the guy is a bum. He's an alcoholic. He's fallen off the wagon so many times he has to get his breath tested 3 times a day or he loses custody of his kids.


So this alcoholic has custody of his kids?



His hands shake, and he gets kidney stones often. His dad is one of the bosses at work, so he shows up whenever the hell he feels like it, which is about 30% of the time.


He doesn't care, because the less he makes, the less he has to pay in child support.

Wow. Has custody and still pays child support. No wonder he drinks.

It must be humiliating and frustrating to have such a miserable pos like this co-worker excel in the dating game while you struggle so.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 102
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 2:10:41 AM
I wish people would not hold Tom Cruise up as some kind of example of shorter but hot heterosexual sex symbol. Most people, well at least outside of the US, know that guy is not straight. He has never fathered a child naturally in all his three "marriages". Not that it is an indication of homosexuality necessarily. My gaydar went off with the high pitched voice and other mannerisms the moment I saw him.
 papertiger4
Joined: 1/5/2016
Msg: 103
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 3:40:39 AM

as evidenced by the $50 worth of Powerball tickets I’ve purchased over the past week. Hopefully $1.3 billion is enough to make a very large percentage of women overlook my negative physical attributes, but I have my doubts.


So were you the big winner from Florida?
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 104
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 6:02:48 AM

The other key difference - is the guy is a bum. He's an alcoholic. He's fallen off the wagon so many times he has to get his breath tested 3 times a day or he loses custody of his kids.

I agree the guy being 5'11" vs 5'8" entered in is going to be a big difference -- additionally looks otherwise. People, especially gals, don't want to admit it, because it's ingrained in us that it's shallow + it'd be asking to judge ourselves (which people don't want to do) + it's not a big evaluation; it's quick & natural, hence the illusion it doesn't "mean much" when we spend more time thinking about other attributes. However, what you point out there IS very negative with many women -- it just shows that said gal has issues herself if she gets Wrapped Up in guys like that. It should be more disappointment in wasted talent if she's a good catch, more than anything.

'm sorry - but I don't believe it's all about 'effort' being the reason why some people lack success in online dating.

It's not that simple, no. However, not just the quality of the catch, but the quality in the effort, and the number of times repeated without sacrificing the quality (which means having to like the chase and not hating being turned down / shy'd away from /etc) -- is very key. It will peak at a particular batting average, which may be low... but when you are batting .100 at optimum 'game', and another guy's batting .350 on a run-of-the-mill day, the effort is key... you'll need a good number of at-bats to get some decent catches. Of course, one of the best routes is not Relying on flying blind (stranger to stranger), but social networking with people (IRL). Helps a ton. Social connections help do a lot of the brute 'effort' for you.

Do looks, height, size, and money matter? They do a little bit, but not as much as you think they do.

Height is part of looks, a key dimension of it -- but I'll say money doesn't matter much. Guys who don't make much can exude the image of making a good amount of money and vice versa. I would say money should be about not being Poor, as that'll come off kinda quick. Other than that, I would say looks is #1 for both genders. If one's within a reachable league of the other, then looks isn't that much -- then it comes down to game. But if two people don't know each other, no social connections, and he waltzes up to her -- heck yes, it's looks #1, bigtime. Without it (in her eyes, tastes), the guy won't have a chance. It's usually the first "interview" that lasts seconds.

You have to get out of the attitude of comparing yourself to other people that get more dates, or other people that are taller and find ways of approaching women online and offline that work for you.

I agree. When you don't think about it and are running on more desire without thinking about it all, etc -- yeah, your "luck" will be better. Being down and out and ticked that girls don't go for this-type or that-type that ya more often fit into will only heed your progress. With that said though, it's hard to argue against what those who kick rocks are saying... they're seeing it more doom & gloom. They want to bat .300, not barely .100. But when you're ticked you only get to bat around .100, you end up batting close to .000. Unlike baseball tho, if you get a great hit and a run scored, you can end up retiring -- so batting around .100 isn't the worst in the world... you just have to let non-catches roll off your shoulder just fine, as long as you know you're maximizing your game to what you can do.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 105
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 8:12:59 AM
“1% is a big number, though.”

I said, less than 1%. Last time I did the calculations, it was a number approaching zero. It is obviously not quite zero; I’m sure there are some meth heads or welfare queens I could get to go out with me. Women similar to myself? Never has happened, never will. Also, even if we work with 1 out of 100, I’m talking about, 1 out of 100 DATEABLE women. Most days I do not meet 100 new women, but even on those days I do, almost none of them are dateable. Most are married or in solid long term relationships, some are underage or of legal but highly questionable age, and especially in my jobs/hobbies, many are CLEARLY far out of my league (but not single so it doesn’t matter). I actually don’t think I’ve met a single, age-appropriate, date-seeking women since 2012. That’s not an exaggeration. I may have crossed paths with a few that I didn’t get to know well enough to find out they were single, but among those whose relationship status I learned, they were all in relationships over the past 4 years. All of my friends are married or in long term relationships and all of their friends are married or in long term relationships, and everyone that’s age-appropriate that I’ve met through jobs or hobbies has been married or in long term relationships. This is why I’m saying… OLD may be prejudiced against me, but at least all of those women are DATEABLE.

Coma: Aren’t you a musician? What’d I say about musicians? And you aren’t even a truly short musician.

In the real world, facial attraction is the most important determinant of attraction for either gender. If the woman is the same height or shorter, facial attraction will usually trump the woman’s height preferences. I’m no expert in the facial attractiveness of men, so I showed Coma’s picture to both of my best friends and just asked them what they thought, and the older one thought he was “pretty cute,” and the younger, gothic-ish/punk-rocker/alternative one that’s closer to his age announced that he was “Yummy.” (You might be getting an email.)

People who have attractive physical characteristics but are besotted with humility often mistakenly attribute their successes to their personalities, which is something they THINK they control and have developed. Few successful people want to believe their accomplishments are largely the result of random chance, often through events that occurred before they were even born. Take Donald Trump, who recently almost quoted the “Get Hard” parody of himself: I worked hard to make my billions, starting with nothing but a million dollar loan from my father. Yes, because all of us are born with fathers that can loan us a million dollars to start a business.

Yes, I suppose it’s possible Trump could have squandered those advantages and screwed up with that million dollars like many others do. And I suppose it’s possible Coma has at times in his life squandered his advantages and screwed up with some women, leading him to believe that the “right” personality is completely responsible for his successes when he has them. But the “right” personality would have had far less effect without the unrelated advantages to go with it in his case.

For someone who is a perfect storm of negative physical characteristics like me, it would require a persona on the level of Jesus to overcome them all and give me at best a “typical” human experience. If I was just short, maybe you’d have an argument. If I was just a non-white guy with a white personality, maybe you’d have an argument. If I was just a guy who grew up in the middle-of-nowhere, Alabama, maybe you’d have an argument. If I was just a guy of average means and average talent, then maybe you’d have an argument. If I was just an ugly guy, then maybe you’d have an argument (“ugly” is obviously subjective, but there really is no evidence to the contrary except a few friends and a couple of forum people claiming otherwise, plus my scores on rating sites are usually not too good). But put them all together, and I’m a highly inferior male specimen by all traditional and statistical attractiveness standards. That’s a lot for a personality to overcome. But it certainly could be worse: I could be fat and I could be disabled and I could be stupid. Although I might be better off I was the latter (the “Flowers for Algernon” phenomenon). Years ago I thought maybe being smart, athletic and having a pleasing personality might overcome that perfect storm of negatives, but eventually I did see the light.

“Sure, there will be a few women that do the online shopping thing and will only meet men of a certain height or men that make over 6 figures, but let's be realistic, that's not the average woman we're talking about.”

I don’t think you know what the “average” woman is and that comes from your blinders of being a likely top 10% man. 95% of women on Match exclude me from their height preferences. *95%*. So the “average” woman is somehow in that 5%? What kind of math are they teaching you guys in Canada?

So I bet right now, even with your sparsely written “not single/not looking” forums-only profile (assuming it is unhidden), you still get emails from interested women every now and then. If so, how do you explain how that happens to you (and several other men like IG in the forums) and yet I often go months without an unsolicited view despite my extremely active and fairly well-written profile?

When people wonder why I’m so down on myself and truly believe I’m in the bottom 1%, this is the main proof of that I have – not the 10,000 rejections I’ve piled up which could very well be because I’m a contacting idiot, but the MILLIONS of indirect passive rejections I’ve gotten from women who, based just on my searchable characteristics and primary picture, don’t even think my profile is worth looking at. How else would you interpret those results?

“You have to get out of the attitude of comparing yourself to other people that get more dates, or other people that are taller and find ways of approaching women online and offline that work for you.”

This is absurd... mostly because you are betraying your own philosophy by telling us how you get more dates than we do, and that if we were more like you, we would get more dates! But also because: learning from other people’s successes is pretty much a standard way of fixing one’s problems. But let’s say I take your statement at face value: the best (and ONLY) online approach that has ever worked for me is being on dating sites that do not have height listings, which with the exception of Tinder, do not exist anymore; the best offline approach has been... showing up to work. Since all of my offline dates have been with women I met while they were working. Needless to say, neither of these strategies are particularly reliable or wise. Absolutely nothing else has ever worked.

“So what was the ultimatum?”

That our affair-ish relationship had to become public, which means her parents would find out, which means she would have been disowned, which I could not let happen to her. Nearly ten years later, she and her father still have a great relationship, so it was the right decision, even though my best friend claims it was not – she’s not usually one of those “love conquers all” persons (look at all her own crappy relationships!), but she can try to fluff my head up with all the positive platitudes about myself she wants, yet she knows as well as I do from 20 years of friendship that that was my only chance at love and I think she felt like it was worth destroying my ex-girlfriend’s life in order to save mine. I knew I was going to be alone for the next 9 years (and probably forever) if I didn’t go along with the ultimatum, but... sometimes you just have to do the right thing, even if it means destroying yourself in the process, though most likely staying with her would have eventually destroyed me, too – it was, like everything else, a no-win situation for me, so I might as well make sure somebody came out a winner. She and her tall, Anglo-Saxon second husband that her parents love recently announced they are expecting.

“So were you the big winner from Florida?”

I actually already said I wasn’t earlier in this thread. The winning ticket was sold on the other side of the state from where I live. However, one of the million dollar “second place” tickets was sold at the grocery store I used to shop at all the time until last year when I stopped working in that area. 90% of my friends are from that area. Therefore it’s quite possible I have at least met that million dollar winner, if I'm not actually strongly acquainted with him/her, because it’s a pretty small town within our major metro, but that winner or the Melbourne jackpot winner have come forward publicly yet, just the jackpot couple in Tennessee and some 19-year-old punk in the Orlando area who got a million dollar dollars on the first lottery ticket he ever bought! Again, another example of why the world sucks. Random freakin’ chance.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 106
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 9:10:35 AM

That our affair-ish relationship had to become public, which means her parents would find out, which means she would have been disowned, which I could not let happen to her. Nearly ten years later, she and her father still have a great relationship, so it was the right decision, even though my best friend claims it was not

I knew I was going to be alone for the next 9 years (and probably forever) if I didn’t go along with the ultimatum, but... sometimes you just have to do the right thing, even if it means destroying yourself in the process, though most likely staying with her would have eventually destroyed me, too – it was, like everything else, a no-win situation for me, so I might as well make sure somebody came out a winner. She and her tall, Anglo-Saxon second husband that her parents love recently announced they are expecting.


It wouldn't have been my decision, I think more of myself than that. And I agree with your old GF, you shouldn't have to keep dating a secret like it's some sort of affair. There is no future in that.

It appears her first husband didn't work out, she might have been on the rebound from your rejection.

Random odds are that couples will have the husband taller than the wife, and Caucasian are still the majority in the country, so what you describe is to be expected. While studies have shown that there is a selection bias in favor of taller men shorter women, it's not overwhelming. And some of that selection bias is driven by men selecting women shorter than them.

The main person you made happy was her father. Who knows how it would have turned out, maybe the confidence your GF or wife gave you would have resulted in you becoming a famous playwright.
Maybe you both would be miserable and have gotten a divorce then she subsequently finds a tall, Anglo-Saxon second husband and her father can then say, see I told you.

But IMO this is exactly why most think your poor attitude is the swing factor that makes your chances so very small. You make a poor situation (which I am equally familiar with as I am also 5.4) into an impossible situation.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 107
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 3:06:14 PM

I said, less than 1%. Last time I did the calculations, it was a number approaching zero.

Well, as I said though:

They want to bat .300, not barely .100. But when you're ticked you only get to bat around .100, you end up batting close to .000.

The longer you are in that mental rut, not exactly thrilled about batting .100, where game and positive mental attitude & shield from the negatives is far more important than those who bat .300, the more you think you don't bat .100, but bat .010. Because that becomes your experience, and a bad batting avg is a bad batting average -- however, a big difference between those two.

I actually don’t think I’ve met a single, age-appropriate, date-seeking women since 2012.

I'm not discounting that the true opps are slim, but the more you think about how slim it is, the more slim than it actually will be in your mind. Even if you're chasing short gals only, let's say it's the same as getting gals out of your league. Every single option is. Ok. Guess what? It's not as bad as you think. I know I've said this to you before a long while back, but here it is again: Let's say I had a briefcase of $10 million and I said "If you can sleep with or go out on consecutive dates with a cute girl within the timeframe of, say, 2 months -- you can have this briefcase, tax free. Another month beforehand where you can't approach girls, but to tune up on your skillz in picking up women can be allowed." Would you say, "Oh, that'd be nice, but no -- you'd need to give me 4 years, not 2 months. Sorry, I pass."? No, of course not. In fact, your game would change. You'd be in a different gear. Would you suddenly be 5'11"? Muscle bound? Famous? Guitar hero? No. Your frame of mind would be different. Your results would be Different in the positive direction -- that's a given. So we can talk about how hard it is and what roadblocks you always hit, etc. But if you're not in that mindset when you hit a sort of 'near Zero' realm, then yes, You don't know how difficult or easy it potentially Can be. You just don't want it enough.

Again, the guy who, when on his A game all set bats .100, is batting more like .010, if that -- because he's tired of the game due the fact that he can't even get batting near .200.

In the real world, facial attraction is the most important determinant of attraction for either gender. If the woman is the same height or shorter, facial attraction will usually trump the woman’s height preferences.

Then you have less reason to believe you're only suited to be barely a pulse over .000.

But put them all together, and I’m a highly inferior male specimen by all traditional and statistical attractiveness standards.

It's not as bad as you believe it is. I know what you're saying -- each attribute by itself doesn't mean the end of the world, but you say the combo makes it all come crashing down. No, it actually doesn't. Your race/style/look isn't going to push women away. It isn't an auto-negative like below-average height inch by inch is. Some LIKE it. You can't say the same thing about girls in reference to guys who are notably short. It's going to cancel out options that you'd like to have, sure. It's going to bring some in that you wouldn't have gotten if you were a bright-white ginger kid. It's your height. It's going to cost you, yep. A lot. Second is your taste in what you like combined with your attitude about what you could get -- as you don't like the high % of strikeouts that'll be had by more people.

The interesting thing is, you'd have more to kick rocks about if you didn't know any girls -- ie no potential social connections. You take for granted what you have in the toolbox. A lot of guys would Die for that.

Again -- briefcase. $10 million. You think you'd fare the same way anyway? You wouldn't. You'd still be batting low of course, but you'd be batting better -- and you'd feel like you're batting better too, as strikeouts wouldn't mean anything to you. You'd be on a conquest to garner a gal's interest, with the motivation. You'd see it as earning the money. Your results would be different; how you roll and your mindset would be too.
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 108
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/16/2016 4:59:42 PM
Strange there is no thread about how hard it is for tall women to find dates.
I showed my BC from 11 on to get child fares, I struggle to find clothes that actually fit, I get men way shorter than me hitting one me ( I think they are called bucket and saucer guys)
I don't stoop, I don't hold up tall women idols to get validation
Simply message women who state they are NOT looking for a tall Man.. problem solved
Did I mention sleeves are always too short? And people forever ask me to get things from the top shelf at the store? idk.. we spend more time bemoaning so called flaws than celebrating what makes us US
Did I also mention I get tired of ppl asking how tall I am?
I am not tall - I am exactly the right size for me.
And I could get into bars at 13 as long as I kept my mouth shut :)
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