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 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 109
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LADIES - A Question of Height...Page 5 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)

Strange there is no thread about how hard it is for tall women to find dates.


So does your height make it hard in your opinion to find a date?

BTW: (I hate long shirts and jackets, the sleeves always hang over my wrist. Sometimes I have even gotten a tailor to short the sleeve if I like the jacket. On the upside, I seldom hit my head on anything, and airplane seats have plenty of room )

You could always start a thread about tall women.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 110
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/17/2016 8:06:36 AM

Strange there is no thread about how hard it is for tall women to find dates.


Many men might have mild height preference. But I think most men probably wouldn't reject an attractive tall woman because of her height. I have seen attractive tall women walk into a room and become the center of attention. If anything, it might be some tall women's height requirements that makes it harder for her to find dates. At least from what I have seen.
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 111
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/17/2016 11:54:04 AM
well my rambling point was we might as well be happy with what we cannot change. :/
That and I am easy to spot in my grade one picture as I'm nearly as tall as the teacher
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 112
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/17/2016 12:03:15 PM

Height is part of looks, a key dimension of it -- but I'll say money doesn't matter much. Guys who don't make much can exude the image of making a good amount of money and vice versa. I would say money should be about not being Poor, as that'll come off kinda quick. Other than that, I would say looks is #1 for both genders. If one's within a reachable league of the other, then looks isn't that much -- then it comes down to game. But if two people don't know each other, no social connections, and he waltzes up to her -- heck yes, it's looks #1, bigtime. Without it (in her eyes, tastes), the guy won't have a chance. It's usually the first "interview" that lasts seconds.


That's not always the case though. A good looking guy can drop the ball and not get the phone number because he's not centered or present in the moment and an average looking guy can make an awesome impression if he presents himself as a fun, non-needy person that doesn't seek approval. I think you're right if the guy looks like a complete slob, but you'd be surprised how many good looking guys don't get dates and phone numbers because they're shy or feel self conscious. I agree that you have to let the non-catches roll of your shoulder, but I don't think looks are as important as people think they are. A really beautiful woman that gets hit on all the time usually responds better to a guy that doesn't suck up to her like all the other guys than to a good looking guy that gives her a compliment she's used to hearing.



I agree. When you don't think about it and are running on more desire without thinking about it all, etc -- yeah, your "luck" will be better. Being down and out and ticked that girls don't go for this-type or that-type that ya more often fit into will only heed your progress. With that said though, it's hard to argue against what those who kick rocks are saying... they're seeing it more doom & gloom. They want to bat .300, not barely .100. But when you're ticked you only get to bat around .100, you end up batting close to .000. Unlike baseball tho, if you get a great hit and a run scored, you can end up retiring -- so batting around .100 isn't the worst in the world... you just have to let non-catches roll off your shoulder just fine, as long as you know you're maximizing your game to what you can do.


That's right on the money. A lot of guys get on a "tilt" and just keep on getting more bitter and resentful. This makes them fail more because their attitude gets worse and they're not as fun to be around. The information we can access from our own living now is insane with the internet. There are thousands of ways a man could improve his game, but they require a small effort. That's usually an investment most people aren't willing to make. They just blame their looks or some other feature. Most of the time they're just making simple mistakes they could have avoided by learning the basics of dating and attraction. Guys that do online dating have terrible profiles and expect good results. Guys go up to women in real life acting needy and outcome dependent and expect good results. Laziness is an epidemic unfortunately.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 113
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/17/2016 2:40:56 PM
“Simply message women who state they are NOT looking for a tall Man..”

In 20 years of OLD, I have never seen a woman write “NOT looking for a tall man” or anything remotely similar in her profile. The ONLY time height is mentioned when they are SEEKING tall men. Now if you’re talking about Match, then, yeah, sure, I only write women who have not chosen a minimum height taller than me (all 5% of them). But POF without the height preference listings? It’s just all throwing darts in the dark. The only thing you can do is assume short women are somewhat more likely to be receptive (since, you know, tall women are all concerned about “bucket and saucer guys”), but I’ve read as many “no short men” or “must be at least 6 feet” on short women’s profiles as on tall women’s profiles, although the short women often preface it with “I know I’m short, too, but…” Like that’s somehow going to soften the blow. And as I’ve said many times before, it’s such a deviant behavior that if I ever did find a woman’s profile that said “short men only, please,” I would not only not contact her, but I’d probably contact the proper authorities to see if I could get her committed – a preference for short men is one of the clearest signs of insanity that has probably ever existed.

I think the reasons there are no tall women threads are because tall women aren’t lacking entirely for options like short men (they’re still getting plenty of messages, from both tall and “bucket and saucer” guys), and because women don’t usually have to initiate, so they deal with far less rejection than men just in general, which is what most men’s OLD threads are about generally. From a tall woman’s perspective, she’s usually having pretty much the same problems as short women: wrong/bad men sending her bad emails. Check out all the threads started by women about OLD: that is the ONLY theme. Though the non-OLD threads tend to be more about how a man is currently doing them wrong or asking the forumites to read a man’s mind for them. It’s rare I see a woman actually start such a thread, but most women who complain within somebody else’s thread about lack of emails or lack of responses... it’s almost always because of their age.

More importantly for you specifically, you are exactly the height of the average man. Unless you’re going to get all picky about your height in heels, 50% of men are still on the table for you. If you were 6’4” or something, I’d agree that you were probably screwed mostly/entirely because of your height and should start a thread about it.

“Guys that do online dating have terrible profiles and expect good results.”

Is my profile terrible?

“Guys go up to women in real life acting needy and outcome dependent and expect good results.”

Are you related to Woman in Progress? Now that I think about it, you two do have very similar writing styles, but I never noticed it before until you used the term “outcome dependent” – one of her all-time favorite phrases.

"A good looking guy can drop the ball and not get the phone number because he's not centered or present in the moment and an average looking guy can make an awesome impression if he presents himself as a fun, non-needy person that doesn't seek approval. "

But what is a "good looking guy"? Can you and I be judges of what a "good looking guy" is? This is why I asked my friends to check out your picture. Just how many times have you been hanging out with some women and a supposedly "good looking guy" failed with one of them, and the woman said after he left, "Man, he was good looking but his game was just too off to consider." Just doesn't happen. When I'm with my female friends and a guy gets rejected, the talk is all about his lack of physical appeal when he leaves, unless he just did something REALLY offensive. A lot of them actually like the "shy" or gaffe-prone guys... so long as they find them physically attractive. We don't really know WHY guys are failing unless we seek out the specifics of a situation. Obviously there are some women that will say "I don't care how attractive a guy is if I don't like his personality," but were they ever really all that attracted to the guy with the "lousy personality" to begin with? Women say a lot of things to save face, but there are far more relationships with couples of mismatched personalities than there are of couples of mismatched physical characteristics (I know, I know: Dudley Moore and Susan Anton. For that matter, me and the next woman I'm about to discuss, but as you can also see, what an exception that was, for both her and my life).

Dragon: I don’t know why you’re describing that particular situation as symbolic of my “poor attitude.” It is one of the few times in my life I did the right thing for the right reason. A good example of me doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons was ever letting that relationship develop to begin with, since I knew it would be doomed. You have to understand, she was very young and immature – I was the first guy she ever had a date with. She had a school girl crush and was following me blindly without regards to the consequences. I was the true adult in that situation (she was of legal age, barely) and I should have just sacrificed my first (and last) opportunity to be truly adored by someone for her own sanity, two years earlier than I did. If she had been my age with a ton of relationship experience under her belt, then this would be a completely different discussion, because that theoretical woman being disowned by her family would likely have been far less of an issue for her livelihood, and she likely would fully understand the consequences and presumably know exactly what she was doing. But I wasn’t going to let a naïve 19-year-old I cared about make the decision to destroy her life – it was pretty much the equivalent of her asking me to buy her heroin. I figured when we first started dating secretly, she would soon hate me or get over me or become interested in the many men (boys) her own age that thought she was cute, but she just fell more and more in love with me – the fact that I didn’t see that coming was a sign of my own dating/relationship immaturity (again, the only time I ever dated someone who had a crush on me). Now I know better, but now it doesn’t matter, because I’m too old for that scenario to ever unfold again.

There’s also the matter of... I’m pretty sure I was never in love with her. It’s tough to say because I have no experience AT ALL with loving someone who loves me, but I pretty much just started dating her because she was cute (enough) and liked me, not because I felt something for her. And I never really felt like she grew on me. Some of her friends (both before and while we were dating) made me a lot more “gaga” than she ever did. And she annoyed me a lot, and even though she’s much older now, she’s still doing a lot of the immature things that annoyed me about her before. So, you know, call me crazy, but if you’re going to destroy somebody’s life because they love you, you should also probably feel like you can’t live without them, either. Honestly, if I was “normal,” I would have broken up with her long before she broke up with me, whether I had other options or not, but I just stayed in the relationship because it was the only real relationship I’d ever had and knew it was likely to be the only one I was ever going to have.

Undoubtedly, the next woman might find herself in the same situation, but a 40-year-old is probably more inclined to realize what’s happening and dump me in a hurry than a 20-year-old. Actually, a 40-year-old is far more inclined to realize that’s going to happen before it happens and never date me to begin with... which is undoubtedly contributing to me being dateless for the 9 years since the 20-year-old matured enough to dump me for those reasons.
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 114
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/17/2016 2:46:47 PM

In 20 years of OLD, I have never seen a woman write “NOT looking for a tall man” or anything remotely similar in her profile. The ONLY time height is mentioned when they are SEEKING tall men.


After reading THOUSANDS of women's profiles over the years, I have actually seen TWO which stated they were looking for shorter guys (a relative term )(under 5' 10") , because they were only 5 feet tall and said didn't want to strain themselves reaching up to kiss a guy.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 115
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/17/2016 9:11:01 PM

Is my profile terrible?


The proof is in the pudding. Is your profile getting you dates?


Are you related to Woman in Progress? Now that I think about it, you two do have very similar writing styles, but I never noticed it before until you used the term “outcome dependent” – one of her all-time favorite phrases.


Who?


But what is a "good looking guy"? Can you and I be judges of what a "good looking guy" is? This is why I asked my friends to check out your picture. Just how many times have you been hanging out with some women and a supposedly "good looking guy" failed with one of them, and the woman said after he left, "Man, he was good looking but his game was just too off to consider." Just doesn't happen. When I'm with my female friends and a guy gets rejected, the talk is all about his lack of physical appeal when he leaves, unless he just did something REALLY offensive. A lot of them actually like the "shy" or gaffe-prone guys... so long as they find them physically attractive. We don't really know WHY guys are failing unless we seek out the specifics of a situation. Obviously there are some women that will say "I don't care how attractive a guy is if I don't like his personality," but were they ever really all that attracted to the guy with the "lousy personality" to begin with? Women say a lot of things to save face, but there are far more relationships with couples of mismatched personalities than there are of couples of mismatched physical characteristics (I know, I know: Dudley Moore and Susan Anton. For that matter, me and the next woman I'm about to discuss, but as you can also see, what an exception that was, for both her and my life).


We already know why men are failing. They are relying on women for their positive emotions and get into a downward spiral of self doubt once they get rejected. Men that look better than average get rejected too, so why are we placing so much importance on looks? People are forgetting that attraction isn't a choice and looks aren't the only trigger.
 ohenryx
Joined: 3/12/2010
Msg: 116
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/17/2016 9:15:15 PM
Some random thoughts, in no particular order.

Yes, Ouija is not that tall. When they’re taller than me, without high heels, then I think of them as tall. But I still like them, as long as they’re attractive. I have mentioned before, when I was in college I dated a girl who played basketball and was slightly taller than me. Never a problem for her or myself.

For HawkingJr I can offer two pieces of advice. Number one, learn to dance. You talk about being in good physical shape, and very athletic when you were younger. I’ll bet you could become a really good dancer, and women absolutely love men who can dance really well.

You go to a big dance, ball room dancing going on, and you get out on the floor and really show your moves, the women are all going to be talking about you, wanting to know who you are, where you came from, etc, etc.

Number two, try to become an extrovert. The kind of person that makes whoever is around them, laugh and enjoy the evening. Is this easy? No, it’s actually much harder than learning to dance, at least for most people. But I have seen people do it. Totally change their style, become the life of the party when they were formerly a wall flower.

And now that FullMoonGuy has mentioned it, I, too, have seen women’s profiles where they specifically mentioned that they didn’t want to date “tall men”. Granted, it was only a few, but I have seen it, and I did notice because it eliminated me.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 117
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/18/2016 6:36:51 AM

And now that FullMoonGuy has mentioned it, I, too, have seen women’s profiles where they specifically mentioned that they didn’t want to date “tall men”. Granted, it was only a few, but I have seen it, and I did notice because it eliminated me.


It's rare, but I have also seen this.

The established rule of thumb is no more than 9 inches taller is the norm for most women. (Not that the norm applies to everyone) That is, when the issue is studied, women tend not to want to date someone that is more than 9 inches taller, which makes some sense. As the average for women is ~5.5 and the tallest that is commonly mentioned is 6.2 as being desirable.

I get the feeling that taller women are more sympathetic to short men because they have to deal with the occasional issue with their height, especially when they were younger.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 118
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/18/2016 9:00:00 AM

Strange there is no thread about how hard it is for tall women to find dates.

There's threads all over the place how difficult it is for women in general to "find" dates. Or in other words, to have guys they LIKE to find THEM:

I get men way shorter than me hitting one me ( I think they are called bucket and saucer guys)

... as said here. :) The difficulty in "finding" Appealing dates, pound for pound, is a different situation between men & women where it's men (mainly IRL) doing the "finding", and gals generally sitting back with the Yay or Nay cards to show. Add to that, tall women vs short guys is also a different story, as it's comparing apples & oranges to some degree. Men can and sometimes will say "Tall women are hot," and that's not a misnomer. Women will not won't and do not say "Short guys are hot," as that is a misnomer. I think your situation Does have it's "shortcomings" in the dating field, don't get me wrong. But it's a notably Different situation than a guy who's 5'5" in the dating field, and there's going to be a greater degree of shortcomings for him. Of course, I should say, for anyone, it also resides on their own tastes.

well my rambling point was we might as well be happy with what we cannot change. :/

That's easier to say for a tall, slender attractive woman who'd rather be a more "ideal" height for dating returns... than say someone who has a leg amputated, a guy who's notably Short, or even someone who has diabetes. You don't have to be happy with It, you can just aim to be happy/content in life and not let It drag ya down. And as a side note (to everyone), just because a guy is arguing/debating about the height taste issue women have in the dating field that's sometimes overblown, doesn't mean he's yelling at the walls IRL or when out with friends - lol. Lots of guys who are sub-par in height IRL are okay, but roll their eyes when the subject comes up is all.

That's not always the case though. A good looking guy can drop the ball

Oh, definitely. That's why I say looks is #1, but the initial interview that lasts mere Seconds -- we don't think about it. In no way does that rent a room by itself. It's just the foot in the door, that's about it (although if he's HOT to her liking, then it's more than that and some fumbles are recoverable where they otherwise wouldn't be).

you'd be surprised how many good looking guys don't get dates and phone numbers because they're shy or feel self conscious

Yes, a lot of good looking guys have to realize they're a guy in Western society and can't rely on social connections to introduce them to gals, and even in those situations for gals to do just as much of the chasing/finding.

A really beautiful woman that gets hit on all the time usually responds better to a guy that doesn't suck up to her like all the other guys than to a good looking guy that gives her a compliment she's used to hearing.

But again, that's based on game. Looks being #1 doesn't mean the hottest in the room wins -- no. But he has to be attractive to her, otherwise it's a no-go. I think too many guys (even attractive ones) will be too timid & assume a hot gal won't be into her. We can't read minds. Nothing wrong with a strikeout, even though mentally/emotionally it is going to be for many. Looks is #1 because if they don't find you attractive -- the best you'll get out of it is like one of those forum posts about a gal who's gone out on a handful of dates with a guy she's not into but feels guilty because he's a nice, cool guy. :)

And looks isn't just about the on/off switch to have a real foot in the door (although borderline on looks can be swayed by good game). It also helps to positively or negatively affect how they come across to them otherwise -- many times by their applied style, but also natural stuff like facial structure, height, build, etc if those stand out. It helps shape how one thinks of them as a person. That can be overridden by self-recognition of that and adjusting their style, swagger, and tone accordingly to at least some degree.

They just blame their looks or some other feature.

But it'll be hard to convince them otherwise IF the attribute they're complaining about IS heeding the progress they'd ideally like. One can't pretend it's "not a big deal". What they need to understand is that their year-after-year-after-year frustration with it has turned it from something unideal to something at or near Zero. Height being one of them -- you have to realize you're going to have more incomplete passes, even with good game, than the guy next to you (all other things being equal). Some people just can't handle having a low completion %, so they end up never being able to make a complete pass -- they don't want to be QB! :)

Most of the time they're just making simple mistakes they could have avoided by learning the basics of dating and attraction.

Yeah, not just that -- it's been ingrained in them over the years that This is How It Works, period -- due to their years of things rolling that way. It becomes beyond their comprehension that things could be different, because at a certain point, they themselves would need to be Different -- to have a different mindset. But they've been conditioned that they'll have zero/near-zero luck no matter what. That's why I bring up the $10 million suitcase idea. That will change one's view/outlook.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 119
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/18/2016 12:38:56 PM
I should probably qualify my original declaration that I haven’t seen any women requesting to be contacted by short men in any profiles. There were a couple of exceptions, but I did not find them organically: they were regular POF forum posters. And they were clearly insane, if real women at all. In fact, I remember one of them, a gorgeous 5’9” woman from Texas I think, was accused of being a troll by most of the women here because they refused to believe she had a STRONG preference for much shorter men. Most POF forum women don't believe anything anyone says out of the ordinary is real -- look at LetitiaGrande's puzzlement earlier in this thread about gcb possibly having dated short men. Fortunately gcb's been around long enough that "troll" accusations didn't start pouring out.

But as far as my regular searching on OLD sites: never, and I mostly only look at short women’s profiles. Then again, I don’t live in the same areas the couple of guys who claim they came across a few, so who knows, maybe it’s a geographical thing. It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if Tampa women hated short men at higher rates than other markets (the handful of women from my area that have posted about it have been pretty nasty about that subject).

Regardless of the handful of examples a few came up with, I think we can all agree: short male height is just about the only somewhat common characteristic that is not desired by a significant proportion of the population. There are significant numbers of men that like overweight women, old women, non-busty women, black women -- there are significant numbers of women who like heavier men, black men, even dumb men -- you can find just about anything in profiles to varying degrees. But finding a woman who is attracted to short male height is like the search for Bigfoot.

Ohenry: I do dance. In fact, I’m sure I mentioned that in my first post in this thread. But, I am not classically trained or anything (except for square dancing... stupid middle school). My best friend has accused me of “dancing like a white guy,” but she also says I’m pretty good despite it.

The POF-ers who met me during the summer seemed to think I was extroverted enough.

“Some LIKE it.”

The worst combination that exists is short black male. The best you can hope for is Kevin Hart or Prince (you know, if you’re one of the world’s best comedians or musicians to boot), but most likely the first examples that pop into any woman’s mind upon considering that combination is Webster or Gary Coleman. You know how many women were banging down their doors for some guy like that.

“The interesting thing is, you'd have more to kick rocks about if you didn't know any girls -- ie no potential social connections. You take for granted what you have in the toolbox. A lot of guys would Die for that.”

Having mostly close female friends was a lot more helpful back when they were all single – but of course, during the greatest period of that era... I had the aforementioned girlfriend. Currently, it is pretty useless, and if anything, a bit detrimental. But I still love them! Usually...

“Again -- briefcase. $10 million. You think you'd fare the same way anyway? You wouldn't.”

I want the money because it would allow me to distract myself from my status. From August until December, I barely thought about my predicament once, because I was too distracted from trying to survive the Southwest desert and dealing with my movie release and running a film festival – not one of which had any realistic chance of getting me a date. But these distractions aren’t cheap. With $10 million I could start a major production company and take a bunch of distracting trips – hike the Congo, Arabian Desert, Gobi, the Andes, the Himalayas. And if I still feel sad and not distracted enough, get a trophy wife. I’m in the forums messing around now because I’m out of money and can’t afford new distractions until my next distributor’s check comes in. With $10 million, I would easily be distracted for the rest of my life, one way or the other. And understand, distracted by something I *want* to be distracted by. Yeah, I could go volunteer at a shelter or something, but that doesn’t interest me and it would depress me that I was having to do something that didn’t interest me and therefore I would not be distracted.

“The proof is in the pudding. Is your profile getting you dates?”

As many people in the profile review area are quick to tell those being reviewed: a good profile is no guarantee of dates. Because we are not guaranteed anything in life. My profile is not getting me VIEWS, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything anyone has control over (text area included) besides the default photograph. If I were getting dozens of views every week and nobody was writing me, then you might have an argument. Again, I went 6 consecutive months without an unsolicited view. That is not only not normal, it is a statistical improbability. I should have at least be getting an accidental click every now and then.

But the fact of the matter is, no women are viewing my profile because they are not including someone with my searchable characteristics in their searches. NO WOMAN WANTS TO DATE SOMEONE WITH MY SEARCHABLE CHARACTERISTICS. I know that bothers you, because it is proof that people do not always control their own destinies. Your problem is that you are basing your arguments with me on the experience of the “typical” male, and statistically, I am just about as atypical as exists. (In that way, you also remind me a lot of NDTFan. May her profile rest in peace.)

Look, man, I’ve read thousands of other guys’ profiles – I check out the competition all the time. Most of their profiles are terrible by anybody’s standards – sometimes they’re like two grammatically challenged and misspelled sentences that basically say “Let’s hook up.” I doubt my profile is worthy of a Pulitzer, but it is without any doubt better than over 90% of my competitors. But it doesn’t matter – most of them still do better than I do on this site. Because NO WOMAN WANTS TO DATE SOMEONE WITH MY SEARCHABLE CHARACTERISTICS – but they do want someone with my competitors’ searchable characteristics. Again… I bet you still get emails even though you have a profile written to turn away women.

Now you may say, as a few others have said when I got into this debate before, that my argument is flimsy because women don’t often make first contact, which is true, but most women do “shop” without “buying.” What they “shop” for is highly indicative of what they will also respond to when they are contacted. So if no woman is “shopping” for a guy like me, why in the world would you expect any of them to respond in any seriousness to any of my 10,000 messages, no matter what I wrote, no matter what my profile said? That’s like a woman going into stores, shopping for a mink coat, then some guy walking up to her on the street and offering her a dirty old sweater instead. That wasn’t what she was shopping for – even if his sales pitch for that dirty old sweater was outstanding, why the hell would she buy that dirty sweater?

You’re a mink coat; I’m a dirty old sweater.

The ultimate proof that my profiles haven’t been terrible is when I experimentally change my height to 6’0” and leave the rest of it alone (except getting rid of the pictures that obviously show my real height), and suddenly I’m getting dozens of views and a few messages – not just from the tall women who were skipping over me, but from plenty of short women who were doing the same. How do you explain that, Mink Coat? (I will admit, those results do also suggest I’m not necessarily “ugly.”)

“People are forgetting that attraction isn't a choice”

Doesn’t matter that attraction isn’t a choice. There are still people for whom many find attraction and people for whom very few find attraction. The latter are going to have a very difficult time becoming part of a mutual attraction scenario while the former will have very few problems becoming part of one. Most people are somewhere in between, and you’re basing all of your arguments on “average” and “typical.” The “average” man, the “typical” man will fail as often because of his foolishness as because of the lack of mutual attraction; the above average man will often succeed DESPITE his foolishness; the below average man will often fail despite his brilliance.
 michelinman2
Joined: 1/11/2016
Msg: 120
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/18/2016 2:23:48 PM
^^^^ Do you and that other guy from Norway write messages to women along the same lines as how you post on here? Are you this way in real life? If so, I know why you never get dates. Man, both of you are so frigging boring. It would take three hours of back and forth to decide on pizza or Chinese food. Holy crap.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 121
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/18/2016 2:30:55 PM
"Are you this way in real life?"


Lol! Mr. Hawking is not. He is adorable in real life....just needs to find his groove. :D
 michelinman2
Joined: 1/11/2016
Msg: 122
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/18/2016 3:41:24 PM
^^^. Well pretty lady, I'm going to have to take your word for it. But both of those young men could bore the hell out of a deaf man. And they seem to be arguing over who is the least loveable....I bet their Mamas tell them to shut the hell up. Odd, both handsome young men, they appear to be intelligent but man oh man, "they talk the chicken right off the bone ."
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 123
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/18/2016 7:19:58 PM

But the fact of the matter is, no women are viewing my profile because they are not including someone with my searchable characteristics in their searches. NO WOMAN WANTS TO DATE SOMEONE WITH MY SEARCHABLE CHARACTERISTICS. I know that bothers you, because it is proof that people do not always control their own destinies. Your problem is that you are basing your arguments with me on the experience of the “typical” male, and statistically, I am just about as atypical as exists. (In that way, you also remind me a lot of NDTFan. May her profile rest in peace.)


Most people don't search for specific characteristics, they just click through profiles like they click through videos on YouTube. Or women just set up an account and answer the emails they get. Start sending emails instead of sitting around like a bump on a log. Who cares how many people have clicked your profile. Dude, I'm not a "typical" male either, so drop the special snowflake routine. You act like no one else has problems and then you make up excuses for your laziness when people offer real help.



Now you may say, as a few others have said when I got into this debate before, that my argument is flimsy because women don’t often make first contact, which is true, but most women do “shop” without “buying.” What they “shop” for is highly indicative of what they will also respond to when they are contacted. So if no woman is “shopping” for a guy like me, why in the world would you expect any of them to respond in any seriousness to any of my 10,000 messages, no matter what I wrote, no matter what my profile said? That’s like a woman going into stores, shopping for a mink coat, then some guy walking up to her on the street and offering her a dirty old sweater instead. That wasn’t what she was shopping for – even if his sales pitch for that dirty old sweater was outstanding, why the hell would she buy that dirty sweater?

You’re a mink coat; I’m a dirty old sweater.


More excuses for being lazy and doing nothing to improve. You're also making the assumption that people know what they want. People want to have fun and feel good. If you start giving value instead of taking value in all areas of life, not just dating, you will have more success. I know guys that has the same stats as me that haven't had girlfriends in over 15 years. No joke. My friend is the same age as me, roughly the same height and body shape, also plays music, etc. I've always been in relationships or dating and he hasn't had a date in over 15 years. You're placing way too much emphasis on looks or whatever else you're hung up on.




Doesn’t matter that attraction isn’t a choice. There are still people for whom many find attraction and people for whom very few find attraction. The latter are going to have a very difficult time becoming part of a mutual attraction scenario while the former will have very few problems becoming part of one. Most people are somewhere in between, and you’re basing all of your arguments on “average” and “typical.” The “average” man, the “typical” man will fail as often because of his foolishness as because of the lack of mutual attraction; the above average man will often succeed DESPITE his foolishness; the below average man will often fail despite his brilliance.


Yes, it does matter that attraction isn't a choice. This means that displaying other traits can trigger attraction and looks don't matter as much as you think they do. You should educate yourself about attraction and realize that you're just making excuses for laziness. Instead of doing anything, even one thing to get better at building attraction, you make excuses and say there's nothing you can do. You can outdo guys are that 6 foot and higher if you actually put effort into what you do. Stop thinking that everything is based on looks and height because it's not.
 Chromis1
Joined: 9/9/2015
Msg: 124
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 7:16:42 AM

My profile is not getting me VIEWS, which has absolutely nothing to do with anything anyone has control over (text area included) besides the default photograph.


Right.

You've never had a really good main picture because you won't open your mouth to smile. You won't open your mouth to smile because you're self conscious about a gap between your two front teeth. Self conscious enough, I guess, that it affects your behavior in the real world, as well.

Will a dazzling smile make up for your height? I dunno. I do know, however, that it can't hurt. You're very down on yourself, all the time and every time, and an improvement in appearance can be a real ego booster, take it from me.

So what would it cost to fix those two front teeth? 10k? You can't afford 10k to eliminate a physical feature of which your very self-conscious?? I bet you can.

Sometimes, to get where you want to be, you gotta pay to play. You haven't maximized your chances of getting what you want.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 125
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 8:22:36 AM
LAZY? WTF are you talking about? I guarantee you, there is NOBODY here that has put more effort into trying to get dates than I have. As I’ve said many times, it has practically been like a third (or fourth) job. At my peak, I spent 20-30 hours a week on OLD: studying competitive profiles, researching what works, refining my profile, sending out messages (10,000 messages is LAZY?), trying to keep dialogues going (my last date I met after 3 years of correspondence!). I was also out-and-about every night: clubs, bars, beach, hobbies, parties, concerts. Everything I have ever done has been tilted toward getting dates: schoolwork, athletics, choice of colleges, choice of major, career – EVERYTHING I do, completely geared toward improving my dating opportunities. You think I risked CTE playing 4 years of varsity football and became a championship powerlifter (eventually ending up with a disabled left arm) because of my love for the sports? It’s because women like football players and muscular guys. TF I am lazy. There is no way you’ve put in 1% of the effort that I’ve put into getting dates... the primary reason being not so much because I’m a hardworking MF and you’re not, but because, thanks to a lot of random chance and things neither one of us had any control over, you succeeded frequently enough that you were off the markets for years at a time, and I have only once been off the market for two years, so, yeah, I feel pretty confident I’ve put far more effort into getting dates than you have just for that reason alone. But also because, I’ve invested thousands of hours of direct effort into getting dates.

And once again, quit confusing me with other people. There are definitely guys that come on here, scribble a couple of barely legible protosentences onto their profile, send out a handful of “What’s up” emails then complain endlessly in the forums that they are failures. THAT IS NOT ME. And you can tell it’s NOT ME just by reading my damn profile. Or any of the five million mile-long posts I’ve made in these forums over the past 9 years. (Well, technically 7 – I did not hang out in the forums the first two years I was on this site.) YOU must be lazy if your interpretation of my effort to get dates is “lazy.” Case in point: “Start sending emails instead of sitting around like a bump on a log.” Yet the very next paragraph you quote me saying “why in the world would you expect any of them to respond in any seriousness to any of my 10,000 messages” – really, sending out 10,000 messages is “sitting around like a bump on a log”?

You’re really frustrating to debate because you’re just saying whatever you want to say instead of actually analyzing what your opponent is saying in response to what you’re saying. In fact, this feels like a Republican debate.

“Most people don't search for specific characteristics”

This was proven false in the last major thread I participated in before disappearing into the desert. Most women did indeed claim they searched for specific characteristics (height being one of them). Even if you’re not buying that, you’re still going to have to explain to me why my profile got zero unsolicited views in 6 months while most guys in major metros get 20-40 a month if women are just randomly “browsing” profiles. In fact, there are several guys on here that claim they receive several first contact emails a week without even having to browse at all. How is that happening for them and I’m getting no views?

“You're also making the assumption that people know what they want.”

Do you even read women’s profiles? “I know what I want and nothing’s going to stop me from getting it!” I can’t even have a browsing session without coming across some version of that several times. Now I actually agree with you to some extent: most people don’t actually know what they want – but most people our age do know what they DON’T want. Teen age girls don’t know what they don’t want, but those days have passed me by.

“Yes, it does matter that attraction isn't a choice. This means that displaying other traits can trigger attraction and looks don't matter as much as you think they do. You should educate yourself about attraction”

You’d be hardpressed to find a woman in these forums that has said, “Sure, I’d date a guy that physically repulsed me if he had other positive traits.” *I* would not date a woman that physically repulsed me even if she was otherwise my dream girl. How many women have you dated that physically repulsed you? There are no “other traits” that will overcome physical repulsion (short of millions of dollars as we have already discussed). But before you go off on another “lazy tirade” again, note again that I have spent great effort and many years improving or attempting to improve my non-physical traits in the ways that women supposedly prefer – I’m just telling you, no amount of non-physical trait improvement will overcome repulsion. It might make a difference in a borderline physical attraction case or one in which the person doesn’t have a strong attraction opinion one way or the other, but repulsion is repulsion.

Chromis: I don't know -- the director of my movie never even smiles at all (much less with teeth) in any of his photos and he used to get like 10-20 emails a week when he was on here and so many Tinder matches he couldn't keep track of them all. Ironically, though, he's actually smiling (really goofy fashion) in the one photo that includes him on my profile, but that's because my best friend elbowed him in the stomach at exactly the moment the picture was snapped. Otherwise, I have seen maybe 2 or 3 other pictures ever in which he's smiling. Interestingly, my current picture has gotten my profile a lot more views (but still very few compared to most men) than my previous picture -- I think the reason is because it's a distant shot so women have to click on my profile to find out exactly what I look like, while all of my previous default profile pictures were closeups and you could tell exactly what I looked like without having to click on my profile.

“Lol! Mr. Hawking is not. He is adorable in real life....”

Thanks, but you know what else is adorable? Puppies! Not too many women sleep (carnally) with puppies...
 Chromis1
Joined: 9/9/2015
Msg: 126
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 9:07:10 AM

Chromis: I don't know --


That's exactly my point. You don't know. How the director of your film has fared is of no consequence to you and has absolutely no bearing on your ability to be successful. For all you know, he could use a smiling picture as his main and be even more successful.

What I'm suggesting is that I think I know how you can improve your chances, and you're still making excuses.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 127
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 10:41:41 AM
“How the director of your film has fared is of no consequence to you and has absolutely no bearing on your ability to be successful.”

I beg to differ. He and I live in the same city, are close to the same age, sort of share the same profession, have similar incomes, have many of the same passions, hobbies and interests. Why should we not have a similar number of women interested in us? If that’s not the case and you were trying to solve my problem, then why would you not want to know what the reasons are? What makes him successful and why can (or cannot) it be applied to me?

Now wait a minute before you answer. Aren’t you and Coma doing exactly the same thing? What are you basing this “smile with teeth” theory of yours on? What you’ve been told by women? What you’ve seen in research? Your own personal preference? Your own personal experience? “I smiled with teeth in my pictures and a lot of women sent me emails. You didn’t smile with teeth and no women sent you emails.” We’re doing exactly the same thing: you’re suggesting that I be like you in order to accomplish more because what you’ve done works for you, and I’m suggesting I be like my director to accomplish more because what he’s done works for him. Yet you’re telling me how my director has fared is of no consequence to me – why is HIS experience of no consequence to me but YOURS is?

Coma is almost exactly the same, except for the fact that’s somehow conveniently ignoring the fact that I’ve already done most of the things he’s suggesting. What neither of you want to admit is that your own personal philosophies and strategies may only work for yourself (because of characteristics you have that are beyond your control), while interestingly at the same time telling me that the philosophies and strategies of other successful daters won’t work, just because you don't agree with them.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 128
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 11:01:46 AM
I am the same height as Hawkings, 5.4. So I think a comparison might be useful.

I have been in LTR most of my adult life. I haven't really dated much, since when I do date I end up on in a LTR with the 2-6th woman I date. I am used to that, so if I had 6 meets with women that didn't go anywhere, I would wonder what I was doing wrong? If I sent out 5 MSG with no response, I would change up my profile pics and MSGs. If I went over 20, I would radically experiment with a different approach. Not just change my profile, but change dating sites and change geographic locations to see if that made any difference.

I never used POF to date, so I don't know if it would have worked. I did meet one woman from POF to go bike riding, she thought I was single, I thought she knew I was married. We had a good ride, 50 miles round trip with a lunch at a place I had wanted to stop at. BTW, she paid her share.

The only extended time I wasn't in a relationship was after my divorce when I didn't feel any urge to date, so I made zero effort to date. Since I was then working at home and didn't need to go out much, I never saw anyone I could even ask to date. Before that, the longest I had been unattached was when I moved to a new city, I think I was alone for maybe as long as a year.

During one period of time, like 1 year, I had a job where I traveled constantly. Then I had a long term GF in Chicago, but I used to travel to new cities and stay there 3 weeks for every 4. If she had the time, I took her with me a couple of times. But I also had a GF in Maryland and dated in Tulsa along with my steady GF.

My BMI has usually ranged from 25-28, so I have always been a little overweight. In 2008 I was up to 190lbs, which is obese, but that was also the time I wasn't trying to date. When I started dating again, I dropped to 160 lbs, about a 127 BMI. Still I have a noticeable gut. Once when I was 47 I dropped down to 130lbs and a 22.3 BMI, but I was married then and have no idea if it would affect my dating. A few women at work did remark on the change.

IM guess, unless I get obese or get super fit, it doesn't have any affect on dating. But it's just a guess.

Most of my working life, I made more money than average, but after stopping work I made much less. I drive a beat up car, and usually keep all my cars till junk yards are hesitant to take them. IE: Till they fall apart. The sportiest car I had was an RX7, the dullest were a Vega GT and an old 4 DR Dodge sedan.

I don't think the cars made much of a difference in my dating. I did scare one woman when I couldn't start the old dodge in a parking garage. I had two 12 volt batteries I hooked up in series, I forgot to unplugged the overhead light, it blew out in the dark garage and nearly gave her a heart attack. It probably affected my date. When I had the RX7, one attractive woman wanted to borrow it for some reason, so maybe that made a difference. Though IMO she was a twit and a user.

So I don't think the car I drive made a big difference.

Some differences between myself and Hawkings. Of course, I am white

I do know being short makes a difference. I nearly always dated women that made less money than I and were less well educated. Though I didn't often run into women that were college grads or made more money, the companies I worked at were dominated by males and OLD didn't exist. I did date a woman that owned a string of dry cleaning establishments, she seemed quite successful. It only went so far, and i heard she married a Washington DC lobbyist, a high profile job.

Outside of my first GF, the women I date are usually either about the same height or shorter than I am, and range from a size 0 - size 9 dress size. I don't think they are supper attractive, though I don't think 95% of the women I see in everyday life are super attractive. At least not attractive enough to make me turn my head. It's actually rare I see someone that sexy unless I google worlds most sexy women. So I don't think I am a good judge of what other men think is attractive.

Some differences between myself and Hawkings. Of course, I am white, not much I can do to change that and see if it makes a difference. For what it's worth, I did date a couple of black women, one I had a 6 month relationship with.

I am pretty laid back when dating, I try and buy stylish clothes, but my first job was at a clothing retailer, so maybe I just like style. Actually, I might be a little lazy about dating.

I like children, have dated women with young children, used to babysit an infant for my older niece when I was 20. I don't have any problem with dating those who don't speak good English because they are learning. Though I lived with one woman for 3 weeks while on vacation, she maybe spoke 100 words, that was frustrating to her and wasn't something I care to repeat.

IMO the biggest differences is that soon after I started dating I got into a 10 year relationship with my first GF. Everyone thought we would get married, and I guessed later I should have taken her up her desire to get married. But I was young and didn't really know how good I had it. After my next couple of LTR, I regretted it even more breaking up with my first GF. :)

I know from experience in real life that if I am single and around women I am attracted to, I will be compelled to ask them out regardless of any league or height, or what my chances are.

So IMO the biggest difference is attitude. I assume I will date if I want to and will end up in a LTR unless I make an effort to avoid it.

BTW, now I think my wife is an even better match for me than anyone I have ever met in my life. We are still totally in love, and we are going on 4 years.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 129
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 11:02:01 AM
"Not too many women sleep (carnally) with puppies..."



I should certainly hope not!!!! That would just be sick, Mr. Hawking!


Ya know....I'm thinking that a slightly older woman might just be the thing for you. ;) ;)


Okay! I can't help but tease you! But I am hoping that one day soon....you'll just leap without thinking. Overthinking is a defense mechanism you employ for self protection. You, actually, utilize many defense mechanisms to create your own self-fulfilling prophecy. 'Tis true. But you're still adorable. :)

And....I'm not gonna argue with you about this cause I know what I know. And one thing I know.....You can't change what you don't first acknowledge. :)
 Chromis1
Joined: 9/9/2015
Msg: 130
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 11:03:41 AM
Yeah, and maybe your director doesn't need to smile because .. he doesn't. I don't care the reason why.

You're pretty good at over-complicating easy issues.

A great smile is attractive.

No smile is less attractive.

For the life of me I can't understand why you flog yourself and argue so much. Your teeth are fvked up? Fix 'em. Then see what happens. Until you do, you've handicapped yourself.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 131
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 11:16:32 AM

For the life of me I can't understand why you flog yourself and argue so much. Your teeth are fvked up? Fix 'em. Then see what happens. Until you do, you've handicapped yourself.


My teeth are a little fcked up as well. Perhaps I tend not to have a big open mouth smile because of that, but it's just natural for me now.

One the top, the two Maxillary central incisor overlap the rest of my teeth on top. Not extreme, if it was extreme I think it would look like buck teeth.
 LiliMarleen
Joined: 5/24/2009
Msg: 132
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 11:59:28 AM
^^^^^

Maybe. But you're not complaining.

It makes no sense to keep complaining while being unwilling to improve yourself or change in any other way.

KJ is right.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 133
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/19/2016 12:17:41 PM

LAZY? WTF are you talking about? I guarantee you, there is NOBODY here that has put more effort into trying to get dates than I have. As I’ve said many times, it has practically been like a third (or fourth) job. At my peak, I spent 20-30 hours a week on OLD: studying competitive profiles, researching what works, refining my profile, sending out messages (10,000 messages is LAZY?), trying to keep dialogues going (my last date I met after 3 years of correspondence!). I was also out-and-about every night: clubs, bars, beach, hobbies, parties, concerts. Everything I have ever done has been tilted toward getting dates: schoolwork, athletics, choice of colleges, choice of major, career – EVERYTHING I do, completely geared toward improving my dating opportunities. You think I risked CTE playing 4 years of varsity football and became a championship powerlifter (eventually ending up with a disabled left arm) because of my love for the sports? It’s because women like football players and muscular guys. TF I am lazy. There is no way you’ve put in 1% of the effort that I’ve put into getting dates... the primary reason being not so much because I’m a hardworking MF and you’re not, but because, thanks to a lot of random chance and things neither one of us had any control over, you succeeded frequently enough that you were off the markets for years at a time, and I have only once been off the market for two years, so, yeah, I feel pretty confident I’ve put far more effort into getting dates than you have just for that reason alone. But also because, I’ve invested thousands of hours of direct effort into getting dates.


People don't want to waste time giving you advice because you won't apply anything that's given to you. You won't even take people's advice about smiling. You have an excuse for everything. "That's not me. I'm repulsive. That won't work. You don't know my life." Etc, etc. Yes, you are lazy when it comes to making changes to yourself and your approach to dating. You don't do any of it. You'll simply keep bashing your head against the wall and continue wasting time on a process that doesn't work. If everything was left to "chance" like you said, then my friends that have the same stats as me would get the same number of dates. That's not the case, and you're continuing to make excuses instead of taking responsibility for your own success or failure. Spamming emails and making a terrible profile isn't "investing thousands of hours or direct effort". It's wasting time.


And once again, quit confusing me with other people. There are definitely guys that come on here, scribble a couple of barely legible protosentences onto their profile, send out a handful of “What’s up” emails then complain endlessly in the forums that they are failures. THAT IS NOT ME. And you can tell it’s NOT ME just by reading my damn profile. Or any of the five million mile-long posts I’ve made in these forums over the past 9 years. (Well, technically 7 – I did not hang out in the forums the first two years I was on this site.) YOU must be lazy if your interpretation of my effort to get dates is “lazy.” Case in point: “Start sending emails instead of sitting around like a bump on a log.” Yet the very next paragraph you quote me saying “why in the world would you expect any of them to respond in any seriousness to any of my 10,000 messages” – really, sending out 10,000 messages is “sitting around like a bump on a log”?

You’re really frustrating to debate because you’re just saying whatever you want to say instead of actually analyzing what your opponent is saying in response to what you’re saying. In fact, this feels like a Republican debate.


No, it's frustrating for you because you don't actually want to man up to the truth. You'd rather sit around feeling sorry for yourself and use thousands of unreturned emails as "proof" that women don't want to date you. First, why are you focusing the majority of your time on online dating if it's not getting you the results you want? Second, why are you opposed to actually taking advice from people that are successful? It seems that you're here to complain, not to improve.


This was proven false in the last major thread I participated in before disappearing into the desert. Most women did indeed claim they searched for specific characteristics (height being one of them). Even if you’re not buying that, you’re still going to have to explain to me why my profile got zero unsolicited views in 6 months while most guys in major metros get 20-40 a month if women are just randomly “browsing” profiles. In fact, there are several guys on here that claim they receive several first contact emails a week without even having to browse at all. How is that happening for them and I’m getting no views?


They probably get more views because updating it bumps it higher in the list of local profiles so more people see it. You've been given advice on how to improve your profiles and get more views but you won't take any of it. The only conclusion I can make is that you don't want to improve because then you become responsible for your own success or failure. You'd rather blame the women or cry that the taller guys have it easier.


You’d be hardpressed to find a woman in these forums that has said, “Sure, I’d date a guy that physically repulsed me if he had other positive traits.” *I* would not date a woman that physically repulsed me even if she was otherwise my dream girl. How many women have you dated that physically repulsed you? There are no “other traits” that will overcome physical repulsion (short of millions of dollars as we have already discussed). But before you go off on another “lazy tirade” again, note again that I have spent great effort and many years improving or attempting to improve my non-physical traits in the ways that women supposedly prefer – I’m just telling you, no amount of non-physical trait improvement will overcome repulsion. It might make a difference in a borderline physical attraction case or one in which the person doesn’t have a strong attraction opinion one way or the other, but repulsion is repulsion.


Name one thing you've done in an effort to become a person that's self amused and no longer outcome dependent.
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