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 Butterchickenchuck
Joined: 9/18/2015
Msg: 160
LADIES - A Question of Height...Page 7 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)
I'm reminded of that scene in City Slickers where the ice cream guy wants Billy Crystal to really challenge him to come up with the best ice cream flavour to go with any random meal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pbVxyL-OeM

Hawking you don't actually want advice/solutions to your " dilemma " , you just want people to "pitch " stuff at you so you can " knock it out of the park " much like the ice cream guy, correct ?

Do you say “ WOOF ! “ after every post ?

( wink )
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 161
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/20/2016 4:02:07 PM

If you and I had shared a fantastic Summer's eve out on the town...I am sure I would think you were adorable, too! :D

Summer's Eve? I loved those commercials. ;)

You say you have many female friends and you likely make good company as a friend but you also probably show a side of you that allows them to only be just a friend.

YEP. I think it's out of fear. I had a friend once who was about 5'6" (short), but more importantly didn't have an attractive face (but an innocent looking one). We had a discussion about this with him and cute gals... finally, he admitted after thinking and talking about all this crap with me forever, that yeah, he did Want a 3rd place ribbon -- to be friends with real cute gals because of his lack of self esteem. It was *something*, and he'd rather have That than the dealing with the fear of being rejected by said types of gals. I think Hawking's in the same boat.

Hawking you don't actually want advice/solutions to your " dilemma " , you just want people to "pitch " stuff at you so you can " knock it out of the park " much like the ice cream guy, correct ?

I completely agree. Although too many people on threads like this are going to be Overly Optimistic about what he can feasibly get/enjoy, where he is in the right to argue against it where some may see him as a negative nancy -- his too-extreme views are evidence of what you're saying. He strongly believes it, though. Underlying bitterness, but also frustration that too many people believe he could get more than he really can -- which ends up washing away his ability to see (and feel) what he Can actually get.

I’m pretty sure Seth Green conjures up much more positive connotations among most women than Webster or Gary Coleman.

But not Kevin Hart. Webster & Coleman aren't very attractive otherwise, and, well, are more than just short. If Seth Green was built just like them but was a ginger kid instead of a black guy, his luck would be the same. Instead, he's more in a similar league (but still below) Hart.

Regardless, I’ve messaged over 10,000 women. Does that really sound like somebody whose preferences are too narrow?

No, but your approach is bad. There's plenty of non-short guys who aren't ugly or anything, who've messaged tons of women over a long spanse of time, and haven't gotten much of anything. At Least part of it is due to one's taste, yes. Some guys who get NOWHERE EVER will want only the gals who they Can't get. Where that concept in and of itself is attractive (and leading to head hitting the wall over and over again, thus hating dating). But that's a whole other story and may not (entirely) apply to you. :)

In the end, it's all about game. One's game is going to be a Hell of a lot better once you throw a briefcase with tons of prize money in it, in front of them. When one does that, their results change, because what they're doing changes. They'll pick up a couple books, look into it, etc -- because their ego about being correct in the concept, or avoiding being wrong the whole time goes out the window -- they want $10 million. :) After winning and that dust settling, they will realize they wasted their time in their approach to the dating market.

Though it’s not all altruistic: I really just can’t pretend to like any more BBWs

LOL -- I think BBWs aren't going to be that into you, even though you'd be out of Their league. It's a size mismatch, although I guess you could find some BBWs who are starved from attention to give you a go. But I think it's more what floats your boat. Putting shortness aside, some guy-advice stuff about dating says to stop watching porn and don't masturbate. Your tastes will change to some degree if they were unrealistic in the first place. I don't know your taste though.

But I can tell you that you're NOT in the same boat as Webster or Gary Coleman, even though you think you are. Sure, some people are treating it like you're close to Kevin Hart or something, which I too disagree with. But don't let that make you believe everything is just BS, etc. There's LOTS of people with tons of dating experience who haven't gone hardly anywhere -- that doesn't mean they Know where their potential is. Even after years and years and years. If you were 5 inches taller, you'd be pulling tail left and right. Point being, you're NOT an unattractive guy to the dating environment. Scratch that -- your Conditioned POV is unattractive, as I'm sure it's not the same IRL as this topic-talk, but your POV will seep thru affecting things in the negative. Your POV's too extreme. I'm not saying that to give you confidence. Just calling a spade a spade, dude.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 162
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/20/2016 5:03:56 PM
“You say you have many female friends and you likely make good company as a friend but you also probably show a side of you that allows them to only be just a friend. I know plenty of people who I get along with as a friend but wouldn't want to be in a relationship with them because I couldn't stand being around 24/7 belly aching about whatever it is they always eventually get around to belly aching about. ”

Why would anybody want to be friends with someone whose personality they don’t like? That’s just stupid. My close female friends obviously like my personality or they’d just stop being my friend – *I* stop being friends with people whose personalities I don’t like. That said, you have to understand: I come to POF forums to blow off steam and hone my debating skills (Butter is kinda right). I don’t have conversations like this in “real life” – I couldn’t even tell you the last time I got into a debate in real life – I avoid that like the plague (so Norwegian is kind of right, too). Now my best friend and I have discussed our dating/relationship problems with each other a lot over nearly 20 years, so naturally height has come up on occasion, but my second best friend and I have NEVER talked about height that I can recall, and we’ve been close friends for 13 years. If anything, she’s “whined” far more about her dating issues than I have (and she’s supermodel-esque). I’m a professional writer; my POF persona is at best a caricature of the real life me. Again, you can ask the Tampa meeting group about my behavior and personality in real life situations.

My best friend and most of my other female friends are married; my second best friend, though perpetually single, has pretty much always been like my little sister. What you speak of doesn’t factor into the reasons why we’re not dating. This is not to say I don’t understand your analogy (despite hating toddlers), but I really don’t get why people are friends with people whose personalities they don’t like, unless it’s because at one time their personalities meshed and then their personalities grew apart but can’t seem to “break up” as friends. That happens.

I suppose the best person to ask about all this is my ex-girlfriend. After all, she got to know me for a YEAR before deciding she was attracted to me. She had a full year to assess my “real” personality, and I wasn’t even really trying to be her friend, much less date her – I put NO EFFORT into that situation whatsoever. So what the hell did she see in me? Especially if my personality is as godawful as you guys say it is. (To be fair, those were MUCH happier times for me than right now and I was in an on-and-off dating thing with a very attractive woman that entire year she got to know me, which she by the way knew about, and I pretty much stopped dating the other woman (as that was going nowhere and she was moving anyway) to start dating her. So to be fair, it’s really tough to compare 2016 Hawking’s personality to 2004-2007 Hawking’s personality. But nevertheless, I really don’t see my overall personality as having changed any from before I dated her and now – you should see some of the crazy stuff I was posting on other message boards back in the early 2000s! Despite the fact that I was dating a model for part of that era...)

Kevin Hart/Seth Green: Maybe it’s because all my female friends are white, but I don’t know a single one of them that finds Kevin attractive, while several of them think Seth is cute. Now do they think Kevin is funny? My best friend and a bunch of her girlfriends actually recently went to one of his shows – they invited me, but I find the guy annoying and told them “No thanks.” It’s bad enough I’ve had to watch half of his movies. But see what this shows: they find Kevin funny but not attractive; they find Seth attractive but probably not as funny.

“I think BBWs aren't going to be that into you, even though you'd be out of Their league.”

Well, surprise, surprise: the vast majority of my dates prior to 2004 were with BBWs (model excluded, obviously), and back when I actually got first contact emails on this site, most of those came from BBWs. Most probably were “starved for attention.” But am I "out of their league"? I'm a bottom 1%'er, most bottom 1% females are BBWs (exceptions: meth heads, crack hos, etc.), so arguably we are in the same league, no matter what my body type is. I don't really think I was a "lottery ticket" to them, though. That's what I call the supermodel-esque women on this site I occasionally say "What the hell" about and write (and just like the real lottery, that was some effort wasted every time). I'm too realistic of a possibility to be anyone's "lottery ticket" -- any woman can pretty much look at me and realize "He probably can't do much better than me -- I don't care what all he's accomplished. Look at him. LOOK AT HIM!" Now my director... he's probably a "lottery ticket" to women like that.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 163
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/20/2016 6:48:45 PM

I'm not "frantically" trying to prove you wrong: you called my profile "terrible," when it's clearly not.

Plus, I don't recall asking for help (not counting my sarcastic request for a "profile review" after you called my profile terrible). This was just a round robin debate about this topic that we both started throwing personal experience stories into in order to bolster our sides of the debate.


You're complaining about things you can easily fix. Your profile reads more like a social networking profile than a dating profile. If height was the real reason men aren't getting dates, then I should be getting less dates than my friend that is 6 feet tall. You're trying to justify your negative outlook on life with fuzzy logic. You get turned down and immediately blame your height when there are a hundred things you could have done to improve your success and build attraction. I've been turned down and had a large percent of my emails never responded to as well. Should I blame my height too? There are tall guys in the profile review section that I'm helping right now that say they don't get any responses to their emails. According to you, they should be inundated with emails. I know you don't want to accept it, but most of your success or failure is based on things you can change and improve, not on static attributes like height.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 164
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/20/2016 10:36:56 PM

If height was the real reason men aren't getting dates, then I should be getting less dates than my friend that is 6 feet tall. You're trying to justify your negative outlook on life with fuzzy logic.

Isn't justifying height as a non-reason between you and your friend kind of "Fuzzy Logic" too?


I know you don't want to accept it, but most of your success or failure is based on things you can change and improve, not on static attributes like height.

It's hard to look past 'static' attributes as a reason - when the 'approach' dynamic of internet messaging has been experimented with seven ways to Sunday - and several picture and profile changes STILL net a zero result. What other items have been consistent - to consistently fail? How many variations on a theme is one supposed to 'change' and STILL fail before you reach the definition of 'insanity'?

I've done limited area POF searches near where I live based on seeking men below and above 5' 10", which is the national average. The profile count by height at times has been as lopsided as 16% below, and 84% above. I just did a quick search a couple minutes ago and it's about 32% below and 68% above. It should be generally closer to 50/50 in an honest world, right? But hundreds of profiles prove the law of supply and demand has dictated that change. Proving they are all about individual dishonesty is a load of crap, and we all know that.

Guys fake their height a lot in these profiles because it DOES make a difference, at least for the initial attention-getting stages. Women doctor up their photos and cheat on their age and all kinds of little shortcuts for the exact same purpose - to get their foot in the door; to start a conversation.. "Fake it 'til you make it," is a very common theme for BOTH genders.

Yes, there are plenty of reasons why internet dating doesn't work for some people - and they do need to realize the only aspect they can control is themselves. What bothers me is the hypocrisy people preach forth about being completely honest with your profile, when we all know that's essentially impossible -- there is always going to be something not included, not complete in any given profile, no matter how carefully you craft it.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 165
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/20/2016 11:36:31 PM

Isn't justifying height as a non-reason between you and your friend kind of "Fuzzy Logic" too?


I'm pointing out that there are 6 foot tall guys that aren't getting dates or messages from women. People need to get over their confirmation bias.


It's hard to look past 'static' attributes as a reason - when the 'approach' dynamic of internet messaging has been experimented with seven ways to Sunday - and several picture and profile changes STILL net a zero result. What other items have been consistent - to consistently fail? How many variations on a theme is one supposed to 'change' and STILL fail before you reach the definition of 'insanity'?

Guys fake their height a lot in these profiles because it DOES make a difference, at least for the initial attention-getting stages. Women doctor up their photos and cheat on their age and all kinds of little shortcuts for the exact same purpose - to get their foot in the door; to start a conversation.. "Fake it 'til you make it," is a very common theme for BOTH genders.

Yes, there are plenty of reasons why internet dating doesn't work for some people - and they do need to realize the only aspect they can control is themselves. What bothers me is the hypocrisy people preach forth about being completely honest with your profile, when we all know that's essentially impossible -- there is always going to be something not included, not complete in any given profile, no matter how carefully you craft it.


I think it's great to be honest, but more important to communicate attractive qualities. It's not physical attributes that are holding people back, it's their insecurity about those attributes. I think the "fake it until you make it" adage is best applied to confidence. People place way too much weight on "confidence" which is a pretty abstract idea. Competence is far more important. Knowing what to do and what not to do will make you feel far more comfortable engaging in certain activities than blind confidence.
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 166
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 5:44:59 AM
Hawking has said before he comes to debate/argue - it becomes like the MP skit. :/ He probably gets more dates than most! Besides some people enjoy nailing their head to a coffee table, who are we to advise them to stop?
 Butterchickenchuck
Joined: 9/18/2015
Msg: 167
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 5:47:26 AM
"some people enjoy nailing their head to a coffee table"





Hey, don't knock it til you've tried it - it can be very refreshing !
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 168
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 6:18:57 AM

I just did a quick search a couple minutes ago and it's about 32% below and 68% above. It should be generally closer to 50/50 in an honest world, right?


It's really a waste of your time and by itself doesn't prove anything.

It's been established shorter men date later in life, and form longer more stable relationships. That alone would be a confounding factor..

Perhaps taller men tend to use OLD more that shorter men, perhaps taller men are more likely to be serial daters. I have no doubt 90% of men round up their height, but how much do they fudge beyond that, you can't say for sure unless you measure them.

People who use OLD cannot be assumed to be a random sample of the population.


If height was the real reason men aren't getting dates, then I should be getting less dates than my friend that is 6 feet tall.


Another piece of useless anecdotal information.

Attraction is a multifactorial nonlinear equation.

Your height, race, weight, frame, bone structure, hair, profession, facial characteristics, geography, culture, current environment, etc, all come into play.

By nonlinear it means that if you are within a range of height, say 5.7-6.2, that height is acceptable to some percentage of female, guess at 80% But if you are outside of that range, the percentage of female that find it acceptable falls off in a non-linear way. So at 5.4 your acceptability might fall off to 30%.

Multifactorial means all these physical and non physical characteristics come into play. So while height might have a 7x factor, hair might have a 4x, while your presentation (how you appear in pictures and in public)might have 6x, and your job might have a 7x. Let's not forget that different cultures value these differently. So in the USA, height might have a 7x weight, but in Asia height may only have a 4x weight.

Current environment means that with online height maybe weighted differently than in a singles bar, but in a work environment it also be different. Different types of people are comfortable with OLD and some are more comfortable with a singles bar or dance club. Different types of people will weigh attraction factors differently.



I'm pointing out that there are 6 foot tall guys that aren't getting dates or messages from women. People need to get over their confirmation bias.


You and most posters are using some version of confirmation bias. You find a few 6 foot men where you get a lot more dates than they do, that confirms to you height isn't very important.

Someone else finds Nick Vujicic and uses this as confirmation everyone can overcome their own handicaps, but everyone has unique characteristics that outweigh the other factors. Very few can be as famous and as good a motivational speaker as Nick.

And simple random luck (good or bad) is a bigger factor than anyone likes to consider.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 169
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 6:24:51 AM

I'm pointing out that there are 6 foot tall guys that aren't getting dates or messages from women. People need to get over their confirmation bias.


That doesn't necessarily mean height isn't important. If often means that people take into account other factors in addition to height. Such as race, body type, education level / income, religion, smoking and drinking habits, having and wanting kids among other things on dating sites.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 170
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 6:35:05 AM
With online dating, we can change one factor and see how it affects our response rate. Though even that isn't perfect, it's pretty good.

I assume Coma has a response rate he has come to expect, if he changes his height to 6.00 or to 5.4, how much does his response rate change? Same for hawkings, if he increases his height how does that affect response rate? Quite a few shorter men have tried this, I have yet to see any men reduce their height :):) to see if response rates fall off. So if Coma reduces his online height to 5.4, and can't get a simple response, then that tells us something. Though IMO Coma presents a persona that is attractive to women and should get a higher response rate than hawkings even if it does fall off.

Academically it's interesting, but pragmatically it doesn't matter.

Since we have very little control over height, one needs to address those factors we do have control over. And not just how you write the text in your profile.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 171
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 7:32:32 AM
"Same for hawkings, if he increases his height how does that affect response rate?"

As I've posted numerous times, changing my height to just "average" (5'10") without changing anything else usually increases my views, response rate and messages by 10x or more. But Coma would not try such an experiment in reverse because he would consider it pointless.

"He probably gets more dates than most! "

Although I repeat: I haven't had any dates AT ALL in the last 9 years, I will admit I've had dates with more different women than nearly all of my male friends. This is because they meet most of their dates offline so both already know they like each other before they start dating so almost certainly they end up in a longterm relationship afterwards, whereas I've met most of my dates from online, a circumstance in which you have no idea if you're going to truly like each other until you meet (and often there are ulterior motives involved), so most of those meetings were one-and-done failures... assuming you consider a "meeting" to be a "date" (which is a whole other argument). I've only had dates with 4 women I met through real life circumstances, and 3 of them I dated (sometimes on-and-off) for at least a year (interestingly, all 3 of them I met in a 4 year period). I've definitely had to work a lot harder to get all the dates I've gotten than my male friends, who usually just "end up in relationships" the same way I ended up with my ex-girlfriend.

“If height was the real reason men aren't getting dates, then I should be getting less dates than my friend that is 6 feet tall.”

I think we’d have to see a picture and possibly a profile of your 6 foot tall friend to understand his dating failures. You may be far more handsome than him. He could weigh 500 pounds. He could be a world class loser – no job, lives with his parents, smokes pot all day. We don’t know – all you’ve told us is that he’s optimum height. Unless you two are 100% twins besides the height difference, that statement is useless.

Nobody here, including me, has claimed that being tall is a guarantee of dating success. It’s just an advantage and one of many factors that contributes to success or failure. You were originally arguing that it’s not a strong factor, whereas I was arguing that it is. Your entire support for your position is based on personal experiences: me and my shorter friends with “game” do much better than my taller friends with “no game.” But you’re only taking two factors into consideration: height and “game,” and we don’t know anything else at all about all of the people involved. We don’t even really know if YOU have “game” – we’re just taking your word for it. For all we know, you’ve got no “game” at all and your successes are attributable to other factors, or perhaps you do have “game” but many women are turned off by your particular type of “game.” We don’t know.

What we DO know is there is a ton of actual unbiased scientific research about what women overall find attractive, and height in men is at the top of the list:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/08/27/ tall-men-have-their-pick-of-the-dating-pool/

http://blog..com/index.php/the-biggest-lies-in-online-dating/

https://blogs.chapman.edu/crean/2015/09/29/ new-research-analyzes-height-weight-income-and-more-in-regards-to-sex-and-dating/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2524568/ Size-matters-online-dating-Short-men-taller-counterparts.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/fashion/ online-dating-as-scientific-research.html?_r=0

Just the first 5 that showed up (so as not to screw up this html page, I put spaces in those links – eliminate them before attempting to access them).

Furthermore, you can go to Match at any time and test different heights in their reverse searches that check for women’s preferences and see how many more results you get for taller men vs. shorter men, all other things being equal. Or just browse women’s profiles and see how many of them start at your height vs. my height and vs. optimum height of 6 feet. There is a HUGE difference between 5’8” and 5’4”, undoubtedly because the average woman is 5’4”, so approximately 80% of women are the same height or shorter than 5’8” and that factors into their thinking. Furthermore, 5’8” is very close to average height for a man and within one standard deviation – 5’4” is 3 standard deviations from average and in the bottom 1% of male height, and that’s a significant psychological factor for a woman (whether conscious or subconscious).

I’m well-aware there are dozens of factors that go into attraction and a woman’s decision to date a man besides height, but there is an overwhelming abundance of scientific evidence that the vast majority of women consider very short height in men to either be a dealbreaker or a factor requiring an astronomical amount of other positive attributes to overcome. Your height is so close to average that it has nearly no effect on the vast majority of women’s decision-making on dating you – you are for all practical purposes the equivalent of a 6 foot tall man, statistically-speaking, since 6 feet men are also within one standard deviation of average. So you and your 6 foot tall friend basically start at the same point as far as height is concerned with the vast majority of women, and so it’s all your other differences (including facial attractiveness, body build and, yes, personality and “game”) that will determine which of you is more successful, in general. But 5’4” is a completely different world statistically – you can argue otherwise all you want, but there is overwhelming evidence at those links and many others that it is a deterrent to many women, including those the same height or shorter.

“Your profile reads more like a social networking profile than a dating profile.”

That’s a personal opinion but still does not rise to “terrible.” You regularly work in profile reviews: you know what truly “terrible” is. So I took the first 10 male profiles from my area that popped up and this is what they read (yes, in their entirety):

“Currently pre med at USF finishing my bachelors in psychology. Right now I work at for USF health and was previously a professional golf instructor. I'm really just looking for something more than a hookup, tired of the girls you find at the bar scene so I figured I would give this a try.”

“I'm in real estate. I'm single and looking to meet cool new people who likes to have a good conversation or two. If you feel the same way let's chat. I enjoy down to earth people who are easy going who like outdoors and such.”

“Down to earth, outgoing, open-minded, level-headed, homely, very loyal, passionate, creative, spontaneous, fun loving, family oriented. I like to go out and be active. However, I'm a good mix where I like to stay home and watch a movie or even cook...”

“Well I had to reset my phone, my previous profile was deleted for some reason. Soooooooo, if you would like to chat, or if we were already chatting, feel free to message me......again. I'm a goofy individual, who enjoys a wide variety of things ans cery diverse in my taste of music. Anything else, message me.”

“New to Tampa. Road trips/music festivals/cooking/the gym and mars are all I'm about these days.”

“I'm an art student who has a taste for politics and film. I work out alot so I'm often at the gym or hiking if I can. Really into old movies and music with a side of whiskey every now and then. So let's kick back and talk about why Donald Trump isn't so bad”

“I'm a 27 year old male, looking to find someone that has similar interests As me, i love sports,anything outdoors, ill listen to all types of music,I want to live a happy successfull life.if you have any questions let me know.”

“Just checking this” (That is literally all he wrote)

“Into art and crafts, making music, and building. If I revealed everything about myself, what would we have to talk about. I need a down to earth woman that enjoys life and not afraid of being who they really are. In my eyes you can't top honesty, to yourself and others. Most guys are looking for a trophy, I'm just waiting on my twin flame.”

“I am a man that knows what he wants. I want someone that has a career and not looking for man to pay for everything. I feel if you both work the more can have and more you can do. I do try to plan for my future. I love to have fun. I'm a very loveable person , I don't believe in lying . I always say when you tell a lie you will continue to tell lies to back up the other ones you tell. I love my friends and family. I'm a very likeable guy I try to treat everyone the way I want to be treated .”

“Ahead of my time” (And that is also literally all he wrote.)

So let’s play the game of which ones of those profiles are superior to mine? Based entirely on text, of course, though I can tell you almost every one of those guys CLAIMED he was 6 feet or taller, none of them were noticeably overweight (several were in great shape) and most were in their 30s.
 NBATipoff2015
Joined: 10/30/2015
Msg: 172
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 10:03:24 AM
Not sure why height even matters to them. Like who really cares how we look in heals? A women who says stuff like that is a turnoff. Height is not like weight...it cant be changed and it doesnt show an unhealthy lifetstlye.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 173
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 10:06:11 AM

Besides some people enjoy nailing their head to a coffee table, who are we to advise them to stop?

For the last time - it's not about the Nail!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 174
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 10:12:29 AM

Kevin Hart/Seth Green: Maybe it’s because all my female friends are white, but I don’t know a single one of them that finds Kevin attractive, while several of them think Seth is cute.

Don't go by what your gal-pals say out loud for the whole population -- especially when it comes to famous people. Although they may not be into Hart, they would be more into him in person. So many gals would say they don't find Brad Pitt attractive, but that % would drop pretty far (as well as their panties) if they met & hung out with Pitt in person. Anyway, point being -- Hart has No Problems getting potential bedroom action. At. All. If anything, he's getting more than Seth Green (but his fame is higher too). Him being black isn't holding him back. If you really do believe that -- and that he has to work to get poontang, then I think that's a clear signal that your compass is off in terms of women/dating. :)

Well, surprise, surprise: the vast majority of my dates prior to 2004 were with BBWs (model excluded, obviously), and back when I actually got first contact emails on this site, most of those came from BBWs. Most probably were “starved for attention.” But am I "out of their league"?

Yes and no. Yes you are, as your caveat is lesser than theirs -- however, a real short guy & a BBW is an off-kilter-combo. Both may not be getting attention, especially if the BBW isn't naturally real cute or the short guy has a skewed perception of his potential luck in the dating field... so you may see that sort of thing out there for a hookup, roll in the hay, etc. But in the end, many BBWs aren't going to want a real short guy who's relatively thin -- it's more of a type-mismatch. But you will still see it some with the attention-starved low/self-esteem ones who'll take a stab at anything, sure.

I'm too realistic of a possibility to be anyone's "lottery ticket" -- any woman can pretty much look at me and realize "He probably can't do much better than me -- I don't care what all he's accomplished. Look at him. LOOK AT HIM!

It's not being anyone's lottery ticket. Even though IRL you're not beating yourself up -- you've "accepted" that you're lower than you actually are. It's easier to deal with. Less crap to deal with, etc. Over the years you've gotten to the point where it's hardened like stone. It's just the way it is, in your mind. You don't want to take the blue pill, because your POV is hardened + you've been busy doing this-and-that, etc.

What we DO know is there is a ton of actual unbiased scientific research about what women overall find attractive, and height in men is at the top of the list:

Yes, you are right. Oh, height matters. Just like some gal-pals saying they don't find Kevin Hart attractive, you'll also see gals on forums saying height doesn't matter all that much - LOL. Oh, it certainly does. Not denying that at all. And you're going to strike out, strike out, strike out. Again, and again, and again. Moreso than a guy who's not as good looking as you otherwise, but is 5'10". Yep.

Good news: Everyone strikes out more than they'd like when they're actively in the social/dating scene. You're just going to be at a higher rate. You CAN get some cute gals. Supermodels? No. BBWs? Well, you don't want those anyway. You can get cute, compatible gals -- but you have to NOT want to slip toward being just-friends with them, but at the same time, be friendly. Internally you have to NOT have a desire at all for that in any way. You already have some. I think your problem is Apathy, that you're at least somewhat Content with, because you've been Conditioned that "this is how things are". There's truth to it, but not entirely accurate, and missing very key points that yes, you haven't experienced or tried & applied. But you lack interest anyway, and that's why you have no vagenda!
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 175
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 10:25:14 AM

You and most posters are using some version of confirmation bias. You find a few 6 foot men where you get a lot more dates than they do, that confirms to you height isn't very important.

Someone else finds Nick Vujicic and uses this as confirmation everyone can overcome their own handicaps, but everyone has unique characteristics that outweigh the other factors. Very few can be as famous and as good a motivational speaker as Nick.

And simple random luck (good or bad) is a bigger factor than anyone likes to consider.


I don't think luck is a big factor because people that understand the basics of dating and attraction consistently get more dates than people who don't.


I’m well-aware there are dozens of factors that go into attraction and a woman’s decision to date a man besides height, but there is an overwhelming abundance of scientific evidence that the vast majority of women consider very short height in men to either be a dealbreaker or a factor requiring an astronomical amount of other positive attributes to overcome. Your height is so close to average that it has nearly no effect on the vast majority of women’s decision-making on dating you – you are for all practical purposes the equivalent of a 6 foot tall man, statistically-speaking, since 6 feet men are also within one standard deviation of average. So you and your 6 foot tall friend basically start at the same point as far as height is concerned with the vast majority of women, and so it’s all your other differences (including facial attractiveness, body build and, yes, personality and “game”) that will determine which of you is more successful, in general. But 5’4” is a completely different world statistically – you can argue otherwise all you want, but there is overwhelming evidence at those links and many others that it is a deterrent to many women, including those the same height or shorter.


I'm not going to tell you that looks or height don't matter, but they don't matter as much as you think they do. Having a bad attitude or being insecure about yourself makes a bigger difference if you're talking about "deterrents".


So let’s play the game of which ones of those profiles are superior to mine? Based entirely on text, of course, though I can tell you almost every one of those guys CLAIMED he was 6 feet or taller, none of them were noticeably overweight (several were in great shape) and most were in their 30s.


Why are you comparing your profile to their profiles? All you do is compare yourself to others. If you spent more time getting better at dating instead of getting better at complaining, you'd be out having a date right now. The bottom line about profiles is that it either communicates attractive qualities or it doesn't.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 176
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 10:32:01 AM

I don't think luck is a big factor because people that understand the basics of dating and attraction consistently get more dates than people who don't.


Not exactly what I meant about luck.

I meant say someone studied and applied "the basics of dating and attraction". They may strike out the first 7 times and assume it doesn't work. They mistake bad luck for proof that something doesn't work, or that they have something wrong about themselves. And once you think you will fail, you tend to get into a self fulfilling tread.

Same as good luck. I see this in a market, someone picks at stock it goes up 20 times, they think they have a natural gift for investments, then they lose money on the next 10 ideas they have. What they had was good luck, not talent.

As in Nick Vujicic, he could have just been lucky to meet the woman he did meet.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 177
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 10:50:45 AM

Not exactly what I meant about luck.

I meant say someone studied and applied "the basics of dating and attraction". They may strike out the first 7 times and assume it doesn't work. They mistake bad luck for proof that something doesn't work, or that they have something wrong about themselves. And once you think you will fail, you tend to get into a self fulfilling tread.

Same as good luck. I see this in a market, someone picks at stock it goes up 20 times, they think they have a natural gift for investments, then they lose money on the next 10 ideas they have. What they had was good luck, not talent.

As in Nick Vujicic, he could have just been lucky to meet the woman he did meet.


I don't think striking out is going to affect someone that has studied the basics because the first thing you learn is to take responsibility for your failures and look at what you did wrong so you can improve. They realize that striking out is part of the process and they set small goals for themselves. Guys that have dated supermodels still strike out with women on a regular basis, that's normal. The difference is in the attitude. One person realizes that rejection is a part of dating and doesn't take it personally, the other is stuck in his ego and thinks "How could she reject ME?!?!", and goes on to find excuses instead of using it as a reference experience to get better. That's the key about educating yourself, you recognize those negative bad habits, realize that success and failure are part of the game, and you rise about those patterns of self doubt.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 178
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 12:00:20 PM

As in Nick Vujicic, he could have just been lucky to meet the woman he did meet.


We're all lucky to meet the people we wind up in relationships with, particularly good relationships - there is some form of action on our parts that creates that "luck". Nick Vujicic's money made by being a motivational speaker, his religious beliefs and facial good looks aside, he still wouldn't have found this relationship had he dwelt on being limbless, hung back in the shadows and used it as his excuse for not being lucky enough to meet that special someone. Luck very often has nothing to do with something falling from nowhere and presenting itself to you - you have to create your own luck. You don't win a lottery without buying a ticket and you don't get very many lasting relationships by sitting back not putting your best qualities out there that you do have, which very often have nothing to do with height or looks at all.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 179
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 1:33:05 PM

I don't think striking out is going to affect someone that has studied the basics because the first thing you learn is to take responsibility for your failures and look at what you did wrong so you can improve.

Striking out is always going to affect someone if dealing with it too often without a base hit now and again. The concept is how to deal with it. And it's not going to be necessarily due to "failures", but having peace of mind and checking the Xs and Os to know that you weren't doing anything wrong will help deal with strikeouts much better. And obviously what tree you're barking up, too. One should expect a higher vs lower % of strikeouts depending on what they themselves bring to the table vs what gals they're hitting up, and the situation they're hitting them up in.

Luck does have a lot to do with stuff. Whether they're taken or not, the situation they're in -- heck, even what time of the month it is for them (which affects their willingness in non-platonic engagements). But no, one can't rely on luck or blame everything on luck, etc. But it will have an effect, as with anything else in life. If you're a 7/10 and striking out non-stop to gals 7/10, you're doing something wrong most definitely. But you'll still be striking out a good amount if you're aiming high and doing the best one could in your position, too... and sometimes you'll go on sour streaks, and sometimes fruitful ones.

We're all lucky to meet the people we wind up in relationships with

Oooh, not necessarily! Especially in POF-land! :) Relationships, in and of themselves, are not good (or bad). Being single is not like being unemployed. Just a different lawn on opposite sides of the fence. I can think of some gals I've dated, looking back, regretting ever meeting them. :)

Luck very often has nothing to do with something falling from nowhere and presenting itself to you - you have to create your own luck.

Luck plays a role, but you put yourself in situations where the luck is better than in other places. Much like going to Vegas. You don't sit at certain games where the odds are poor and expect to win $$, vs going to the blackjack table while knowing how to play properly.

you don't get very many lasting relationships by sitting back not putting your best qualities out there that you do have

True. I think Hawking is not wanting to, as he's expressed. Mainly because he sees the environment, although harsh, being harsher than it actually is. He also needs to get out of his regular social norms, in the same places with the same people, etc to break free of his options out there (while of course shifting gears to be a commodity out there instead of having given up).

which very often have nothing to do with height or looks at all.

Oh, it does. Especially prior to middle age. Women care about height a lot as far as it compared to themselves, especially if she's not tall herself. Everyone cares about looks. If a guy didn't care about looks, he would have no trouble finding "a woman", sure. It's finding a reasonably attractive woman who's a nice catch -- you're going to have to suffer lots of strikeouts at 5'4", sorry. If he was 5'11" his 'luck' would be entirely different. But the good news is, once he hits a home run, he can hang up the hat -- so he doesn't need to care about batting average.
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 180
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 3:52:50 PM

I'm pointing out that there are 6 foot tall guys that aren't getting dates or messages from women. People need to get over their confirmation bias.


Those are the 6 foot tall guys who DON'T look like a male model or drive a red Ferrari.

I don't think anyone claims that ALL 6 foot tall guys have no trouble getting dates.
If a guy is 6 foot tall and looks like Quasimodo's taller twin, he will probably have some trouble.
"Beauty and the Beast" is still mostly a Disney tale.
But 6 feet is a common benchmark, and most, or all other things being equal, a 6 foot tall guy will win out over a 5' 7" most of the time.
Comparing celebrities or rich guys with the average Joe isn't a level playing field.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 181
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 4:45:24 PM
“You can get cute, compatible gals -- but you have to NOT want to slip toward being just-friends with them, but at the same time, be friendly.”

I don’t know where you’re getting this idea that I’ve had a bunch of female friends because deep down I’m avoiding making them romantic interests. Most of my current female friends were married when I met them, including my best friend (although she changed husbands during our friendship and was briefly sorta single). Most of my close female friends in the past were women who outright rejected me, for what most of them said was physical attraction reasons, and because we had stuff in common (hence my interest in them to begin with) and likely worked together/were classmates, I just decided, might as well be friends – maybe they’ll have friends I can date! (Which kinda sorta happened with my second best friend – she’s never had any romantic interest in me whatsoever, but plenty of her female friends messed with my head.) Back in the good ol’ days, there were very few single women I didn’t ask out period, and that even includes nearly all of my racist high school classmates. I never had any problem “pulling the trigger”... back when I actually knew single dateable women. I do prefer female friends to male ones, but that has a lot more to do with my personality in general – excluding my athletic career (and I actually hated most of my teammates), I have not really done a whole lot of “manly” things in my life. Obviously I’m not knitting sweaters either but I’ve just become highly conditioned to hanging around women and feel much more comfortable with them.

“I'm not going to tell you that looks or height don't matter, but they don't matter as much as you think they do.”

Where is your empirical evidence to back up your hypothesis of how much looks and height don’t matter? Why are you not giving me any hard numbers? 95% of women on Match have a minimum height that is higher than my height. 95%. If you don’t believe me, go to Match and run the numbers yourself. So what is your equivalent number to back up “they don’t matter as much as you think they do” and what is its source? Understand, I’m not basing my arguments of how much height matters on the fact that I’m a failure – I’m basing it on statistical research that states how much height matters. The RESEARCH is telling me how much my height contributes to my failures. Women’s own stated preferences are telling me how much my height contributes to my failures. I’m not pulling numbers like “bottom 1%” out of my butt. But it seems like you are pulling “they don’t matter as much as you think they do” out of your butt, or at best, basing it entirely on anecdotal observation instead of scientific research. Is there the possibility that many of my 10,000 OLD rejections, thousands of real life rejections and going 6 months on this site without a single unsolicited view is because of other factors, including those within my control? Of course it is. But when 95% of women on the world’s largest dating site explicitly state they have no interest in dating a man my height, what reason would one have to believe that my height has not been a primary contributing factor to women’s rejections of me? Where is your scientific evidence to the contrary?

“Why are you comparing your profile to their profiles? All you do is compare yourself to others.”

YOU are comparing me to others. You’re comparing me to you, you’re comparing to me to your 6 foot friend who fails, you’re comparing my profile to some fictional utopian profile whose contents you’re not sharing – and because you’re doing that, I figured I would compare my profile to some actual profiles I have to compete with. And you still haven’t said if any of those profiles are better than mine.

“I don't think striking out is going to affect someone that has studied the basics because the first thing you learn is to take responsibility for your failures and look at what you did wrong so you can improve.”

Are you suggesting the only reason anyone can strike out is because they did wrong? The women that you’ve rejected – is it because they ALL did wrong?

Chameleon: I don’t really disagree with that post. But although I have not yet succeeded in becoming rich and famous like Nick (which I’m sure is at least partially a result of him being severely disabled, because it makes him quite unique in his field), you can’t really say that I’ve “hung back in the shadows” because of my height. I mean, I’m a research director of a major media entity, just produced a top 20 ranked movie and founded/ran a festival attended by people from all over the United States as well as Canada, Mexico and Europe – I was interviewed by newspapers and TV stations 4 times in the fall alone and just came back from a meeting with major investors on a potential million dollar budget slate of movies. I mean, does that really qualify as “hung back in the shadows” in your opinion?
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 182
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 5:30:45 PM

Chameleon: I don’t really disagree with that post. But although I have not yet succeeded in becoming rich and famous like Nick (which I’m sure is at least partially a result of him being severely disabled, because it makes him quite unique in his field), you can’t really say that I’ve “hung back in the shadows” because of my height. I mean, I’m a research director of a major media entity, just produced a top 20 ranked movie and founded/ran a festival attended by people from all over the United States as well as Canada, Mexico and Europe – I was interviewed by newspapers and TV stations 4 times in the fall alone and just came back from a meeting with major investors on a potential million dollar budget slate of movies. I mean, does that really qualify as “hung back in the shadows” in your opinion?


If in the future you are up for an Oscar these posts will come back to haunt you.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 183
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/21/2016 8:18:50 PM

Where is your empirical evidence to back up your hypothesis of how much looks and height don’t matter? Why are you not giving me any hard numbers? 95% of women on Match have a minimum height that is higher than my height. 95%. If you don’t believe me, go to Match and run the numbers yourself. So what is your equivalent number to back up “they don’t matter as much as you think they do” and what is its source? Understand, I’m not basing my arguments of how much height matters on the fact that I’m a failure – I’m basing it on statistical research that states how much height matters. The RESEARCH is telling me how much my height contributes to my failures. Women’s own stated preferences are telling me how much my height contributes to my failures. I’m not pulling numbers like “bottom 1%” out of my butt. But it seems like you are pulling “they don’t matter as much as you think they do” out of your butt, or at best, basing it entirely on anecdotal observation instead of scientific research. Is there the possibility that many of my 10,000 OLD rejections, thousands of real life rejections and going 6 months on this site without a single unsolicited view is because of other factors, including those within my control? Of course it is. But when 95% of women on the world’s largest dating site explicitly state they have no interest in dating a man my height, what reason would one have to believe that my height has not been a primary contributing factor to women’s rejections of me? Where is your scientific evidence to the contrary?


No, you have a terrible attitude and that is the cause of your failures. You're misinterpreting research to fit your own negative point of view. They've done research with men too that shows they have preferences for certain waiste to hip ratios, breast size and facial symmetry. That doesn't mean anything in real life. A girl with a profile that says she only dates 20-30 year olds can go home with a 40 year old. A guy that prefers skinny women will date a larger woman if he's into her. I myself prefer skinny women and I've dated women 50 pounds heavier than me because I thought they were really fun and interesting. If you're going to link research to your own personal failure, you would have to prove that women never deviate from their preferences or what's written on their profile. I'm not pulling anything "out of my butt" as you eloquently say. That's because physical features like height and appearance aren't the main attraction triggers you should be thinking about. A man's height isn't going to make a woman smile ear to ear or feel. It's how he approaches her and how he talks to her. The reason you keep running into failure is because you find excuses instead of finding solutions.



YOU are comparing me to others. You’re comparing me to you, you’re comparing to me to your 6 foot friend who fails, you’re comparing my profile to some fictional utopian profile whose contents you’re not sharing – and because you’re doing that, I figured I would compare my profile to some actual profiles I have to compete with. And you still haven’t said if any of those profiles are better than mine.


Why are you so worried about profiles? Go out and meet people in real life. Then people can at least say: "Hey, you were the dude I saw volunteerings, the dude at the tournament, the dude doing this or that" when they see your online profile. It's better than being a complete stranger to them. The more familiar the better. Also, the more confidence you get with approaching women in person, the more it will translate to your online dating. Your profile isn't better or worse than theirs because all of them are devoid of anything that relates to attraction. They all appear like a profile you'd see on an online gaming website or meetup.com when you're looking for a hiking partner.



Are you suggesting the only reason anyone can strike out is because they did wrong? The women that you’ve rejected – is it because they ALL did wrong?


For the most part, that's exactly it. Of course you're going to run into some people that just don't get you or they're very stubborn about their type, but for the most part, I was able to figure out what I did wrong. It can be tricky sometimes if it's just a flake out, but you need to look at yourself and figure out how you could have done things better. Professional athletes look at their own tapes and see where they could have done something better even if they won.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 184
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/22/2016 5:04:58 AM
Coma, what are the sorts of things women do that you consider "wrong" and you reject them? What makes you reject an online MSG or a real life approach by a woman?
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