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 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 185
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LADIES - A Question of Height...Page 8 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)
“You're misinterpreting research to fit your own negative point of view. They've done research with men too that shows they have preferences for certain waiste to hip ratios, breast size and facial symmetry. That doesn't mean anything in real life. A girl with a profile that says she only dates 20-30 year olds can go home with a 40 year old.”

You know what the #2 complaint of women about OLD is (after men misrepresenting themselves)? That men ignore their profiles – that men contact them that they explicitly disqualified in their profiles. It’s the primary contributor to OLD “noise” – women getting so many emails that they can’t handle the volume, primarily from disqualified men wasting everybody’s time. There are dozens of threads about that topic. So you’re basically telling men to continue this tradition by ignoring a woman’s stated disqualifiers (or qualifiers) and harass her anyway. That shows a lot of respect for women there, my friend. Much like IG, you believe you can talk almost any woman into throwing her beliefs out the door. I guess their little bitty brains just don’t know what they want and they need a real man to straighten them out. Fortunately for those 20-30-year-old women who have determined they don’t want to date 40-year-old men, POF has given them the option of being able to preemptively block men like you. Unfortunately, those women in this thread (and many, many others) that have expressed they have no interest in shorter men cannot preemptively block them. But if I come across a woman whose profile says “No short men” or “whites only” – I respect her beliefs and move on to the next profile.

As for the other way around, there is nothing any woman I find physically unattractive could say or do that would make me want to date her (fortunately, I have an extremely broad sense of physical attraction, though undoubtedly that is an “adaptation”). I have dated women I found physically unattractive out of desperation, but I could not stand them and it was just a bad, bad idea. If you have the capability to date women you find physically unappealing, then more power to you. I perfectly understand why some women would not want to date me because they find me physically unappealing. And, yes, I have been told directly by quite a few women they were rejecting me because of my height or race (of course, a lot of that happened in rural Alabama, the rudest place on earth). So it’s not all guesswork or application of statistics. I’m guessing you’ve never been told to your face that you were being rejected because the woman found you physically revolting. Then again, why would you?

And I’m still waiting for your qualified scientific research to counter mine.

“Go out and meet people in real life.”

Perhaps you did not read what I wrote to chameleon directly below what I wrote to you. You people act like I’m a shut-in or something. How many more thousands of people do you want me to meet a year? I bet I met more people last year than all of you combined. (In response to Dragon: I’m not terribly concerned about winning an Oscar at my old Hollywood age. Of course, I’m slightly more concerned about the longevity of these threads than I used to be back in the “Golden Era” of POF forums, because I always knew back then there was a 90% chance any “hot” thread like this was going to get deleted!)

“Your profile isn't better or worse than theirs because all of them are devoid of anything that relates to attraction. They all appear like a profile you'd see on an online gaming website or meetup.com when you're looking for a hiking partner.”

I’m actually not entirely sure what you mean by that first sentence, but my point is that pretty much all of my competitors have profiles like those.

“For the most part, that's exactly it.”

If you’ve never had to reject a woman because you didn’t find her physically attractive, then you must be the luckiest man on earth – lucky that physically unappealing women don’t approach you. I’m pretty sure that’s impossible if you’ve ever been an active dater on POF – like I said before, I’ve had some SERIOUSLY unappealing women contact me on here, and there is not a goddamn thing they could have written that would have compelled me to respond to them at all, much less date them. But who knows, maybe all the women on POF in Canada are universally attractive. Florida is mostly swamp country once you get away from the beaches.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 186
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/22/2016 8:18:49 AM
Hawking, what's your long term goal in dating? Now you will likely say, just get a date, but lets move beyond that.

If you are dating someone, are you open to getting married? Moving in together? Or would you rather serial date? Not be too serious?

(I do think your strident objection to children hurts you in your age group, and it likely indicts you have other types of intolerance. But that is a different subject.)
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 187
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/22/2016 11:23:35 AM

Coma, what are the sorts of things women do that you consider "wrong" and you reject them? What makes you reject an online MSG or a real life approach by a woman?


I mostly rejected people that I'm not physically attracted to or if they're smokers/drinkers/gamblers. That sort of thing. That's normal though. I think everyone has some kind of standard. I've met a wide variety of people from women in wheelchairs to obese women.


You know what the #2 complaint of women about OLD is (after men misrepresenting themselves)? That men ignore their profiles – that men contact them that they explicitly disqualified in their profiles. It’s the primary contributor to OLD “noise” – women getting so many emails that they can’t handle the volume, primarily from disqualified men wasting everybody’s time. There are dozens of threads about that topic. So you’re basically telling men to continue this tradition by ignoring a woman’s stated disqualifiers (or qualifiers) and harass her anyway. That shows a lot of respect for women there, my friend. Much like IG, you believe you can talk almost any woman into throwing her beliefs out the door. I guess their little bitty brains just don’t know what they want and they need a real man to straighten them out. Fortunately for those 20-30-year-old women who have determined they don’t want to date 40-year-old men, POF has given them the option of being able to preemptively block men like you. Unfortunately, those women in this thread (and many, many others) that have expressed they have no interest in shorter men cannot preemptively block them. But if I come across a woman whose profile says “No short men” or “whites only” – I respect her beliefs and move on to the next profile.


That's because most of the time they are not "beliefs", just a preference. Sure, there are some snotty women out there that get hung up on the "my man has has to be a certain height" thing, but most people go outside their preferences if they feel attraction for them. You're also taking everything at face value. There are also women that put they don't drink or only drink socially in their profiles and you can see them completely wasted at the bar every weekend.


As for the other way around, there is nothing any woman I find physically unattractive could say or do that would make me want to date her (fortunately, I have an extremely broad sense of physical attraction, though undoubtedly that is an “adaptation”). I have dated women I found physically unattractive out of desperation, but I could not stand them and it was just a bad, bad idea. If you have the capability to date women you find physically unappealing, then more power to you. I perfectly understand why some women would not want to date me because they find me physically unappealing. And, yes, I have been told directly by quite a few women they were rejecting me because of my height or race (of course, a lot of that happened in rural Alabama, the rudest place on earth). So it’s not all guesswork or application of statistics. I’m guessing you’ve never been told to your face that you were being rejected because the woman found you physically revolting. Then again, why would you?

And I’m still waiting for your qualified scientific research to counter mine.


I don't need to counter anything. That's because you didn't prove your claim to begin with. Everyone accepts that there are physical indicators of attraction like facial symmetry, height, weight, waist to hip ratio, etc. What you didn't prove is that women place the most importance on the physical attributes you happen to be insecure about. That's just as silly as thinking men are rejecting hundred of women because their waist to hip ratio doesn't exactly match the ideal as determined from studies. It's fine to use scientific data as evidence, but you're not using it with common sense, you're seeking out anything you can use to confirm your bias instead of being objective.


Perhaps you did not read what I wrote to chameleon directly below what I wrote to you. You people act like I’m a shut-in or something. How many more thousands of people do you want me to meet a year? I bet I met more people last year than all of you combined. (In response to Dragon: I’m not terribly concerned about winning an Oscar at my old Hollywood age. Of course, I’m slightly more concerned about the longevity of these threads than I used to be back in the “Golden Era” of POF forums, because I always knew back then there was a 90% chance any “hot” thread like this was going to get deleted!)


I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. How many women did you ask out in person? What was your approach? Did you spend more or less time learning the basics of attraction and how you can improve your approach compared to the time you spend complainng?


I’m actually not entirely sure what you mean by that first sentence, but my point is that pretty much all of my competitors have profiles like those.


Not really, the worst ones usually come to the profile review section. A lot of them convey their confidence and attractive qualities.


If you’ve never had to reject a woman because you didn’t find her physically attractive, then you must be the luckiest man on earth – lucky that physically unappealing women don’t approach you. I’m pretty sure that’s impossible if you’ve ever been an active dater on POF – like I said before, I’ve had some SERIOUSLY unappealing women contact me on here, and there is not a goddamn thing they could have written that would have compelled me to respond to them at all, much less date them. But who knows, maybe all the women on POF in Canada are universally attractive. Florida is mostly swamp country once you get away from the beaches.


Of course I find a lot of women physically unattractive. I'm not extremely picky with the ones that take care of themselves though. You're hung up on looks because you don't want to blame anything else and actually work on your insecurities or put effort into getting better. Every guy wishes they were perfect: taller, more handsome, perfect teeth, thick hair, perfect skin, a deep voice, the six pack abs, etc. It's pointless to blame things that you can't change. There are so many things you can change that significantly improve your chances, not just by a little bit, but by a lot. Unfortunately, those are the things that require effort.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 188
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/22/2016 2:02:14 PM

I don’t know where you’re getting this idea that I’ve had a bunch of female friends because deep down I’m avoiding making them romantic interests.

That wasn't what I was implying in my last statement (although I could see you swaying that way to some degree; guys who have many female friends while seeing themselves as inherently non-dateable have a big bullseye for that to at least some degree without them knowing/believing it, but I digress). My last statement was at best a distant relative to that concept. It's one's basic game -- where a guy who's short and not exuding masculinity in any other direction should really pay attention to, especially when he sees himself inherently non-dateable. If one ends up having a lot of female friends but not male friends, that's a red flag for it -- even though, yes, we all like having female friends we can mingle with. When's not an ugly person, but has a notable short-coming (or not) in the dating field and sees themselves as essentially non-dateable, they need to Ditch their Comfort Zone. Their comfort zone is what has kept them where they are and seeing the whole world in their skewed sense.

I do prefer female friends to male ones, but that has a lot more to do with my personality in general – excluding my athletic career (and I actually hated most of my teammates), I have not really done a whole lot of “manly” things in my life.

It's good that you've pulled the trigger in the past (when you knew more single gals). And No, I don't believe you're a quintessential poster child of "I just want female friends". But my point is that that's not required anyway. But you can go places to find single gals. Never rely purely on your friends' friends (although that can be a good pipeline if options are flowing). But one in your position has to be aware (careful) about how they come across thru body language, tone, voice, etc. Which sure, may require changing as a Person to some degree, yep. Not easy, but a hell of a lot easier than going to the woodshed and making yourself 5'11", right? :)

One doesn't have to be the type to shy away from asking a girl out to avoid rejection and instead "go for" being a platonic friend for some sort of ribbon award in order to be a venus fly trap of "male friend".

You're not a bad looking guy at all -- height aside, you're Far from the non-dateable guy. Being the average height of a girl is not enough to make you non-dateable. Lots of rejections you'll get, yep. But guys in general get more than what they'd like -- you'll get more. A lot more, depending on what trees your bark up and your environment. And if you only reach out to those within your circles, and said circles have girls who socially aren't into "guys of color", yeah, you're going to be spinning your wheels even more, and I can see how your overly negative view IS correct, if restricted to such an environment (but that's not the whole world; but that is your Comfort Zone which is why).

Where is your empirical evidence to back up your hypothesis of how much looks and height don’t matter?

They say it does, but not As Much as you think -- which I agree. Of course, my POV is in-between. One can fake it till they make it -- or fake themselves into believing it doesn't all That much -- which I can never do, nor would expect others to. But my strong POV is that you're not non-dateable. Evidence? Other guys who just fine looking in the face and are notably short who aren't non-dateable, and who have dates with cute girls. Requires more at-bats, requires honing other skills to get cute ones thru many tries, but it's Far more common than seeing a gal walk on the street with a moustache or even a fupa. That's just a plain as day fact.

You're narrowing your view, staying in your comfort zone, and also, well, not really caring that much about it at the end of the day, due to the not-so-positive ringtone the dating world has had with you over the years (and busy a lot nowadays with less single gals bouncing around ya).

I have a friend who's a college swim coach, late 30s. Blonde hair, blue eyes -- buys clothes at JcPennys and dresses like a dad (no kids, never married). He's in great shape, generally good looking dude. Here's the thing -- he hangs out at these Emo/Alternative bars that are still mildly mainstream, but still brings a crowd that's very different to what he can bring in. He knows one of the managers at one, and an old neighbor's son at the other -- he's gotten used to the motif, he thinks it's kinda cool. Maybe makes him feel younger (even though not everyone at those places are college age at all). He sees himself as non-dateable. He's blind & stubborn to not knowing the arena he's in. Gals like being his friend, and he doesn't mind having gal friends. And although not impossible for him to find a date in said arenas where he hangs out, his game by no means can make up for it. He won't Want to understand -- that would require changing things up. Dammit -- he just wants to do what he wants to do, and declare how things are for him! :)
 BBEisBack
Joined: 9/16/2015
Msg: 189
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/22/2016 2:55:49 PM
I see You never did Address Kim's Post, HawkingJR....

Posted By:kj521;
Okay! I can't help but tease you! But I am hoping that one day soon....you'll just leap without thinking. Overthinking is a defense mechanism you employ for self protection. You, actually, utilize many defense mechanisms to create your own self-fulfilling prophecy. 'Tis true. But you're still adorable. :)

And....I'm not gonna argue with you about this cause I know what I know. And one thing I know.....You can't change what you don't first acknowledge. :)




Posted By:BBEisback;
As Kim is the only one posting about hawking jr, that knows Him IRL, I'll go with this.....
Plus, I've thought the same thing, from reading his many posts, here.....


Once again, the important point Kim made......

You, actually, utilize many defense mechanisms to create your own self-fulfilling prophecy.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 3/29/2014
Msg: 190
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/22/2016 3:10:23 PM
Off topic

I'm kind of a great smile person myself.
I love them.

And it shows. You have a lovely main photo and a lovely smile.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 191
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 10:42:14 AM
I'm reading a lot of conversation in here that's kind of Apples and Oranges...

There is a distinct difference in beliefs, goals and self-image between trying to get a date from online sources, and 'keeping' a date in a real life situation. Some in here keep arguing their point across the whole dating landscape when a line really needs to be drawn in time between being 'stuck' online, and actually meeting someone.

The mantra that nothing is "real" until you meet -- should probably be applied to a lot of what people consider about dating behavior. What happens before that first actual real-life eye contact and greeting, and what happens before can be the difference between shooting a bullet - or throwing it.

These broad summaries people put forth about how 'All Men' or 'All Women' do such-and-such may have plenty of ammo to support their argument - but what happens online, STAYS online - and what happens is real life does not HAVE to maintain ANY ties to what may have been posted previously. People need to realize that!

Online dating - the whole rigamaroll - chat messages, profiles, these forum posts - it's NOT DATING. Dating is a real-life activity. This online stuff is nothing more than personals ADVERTISING. Ads need to have a grain of truth in them to be effective, but not much more. Ads are all about an IMAGE - both in 'selling' themselves AND in what they want. People buy into images all the time - sometimes they get what they want, other times, not so much. I think the roughest part we all have about personals advertising is that it's ridiculously hard to see the same image from both sides of the gender gap at the same time. It's tough to simultaneously realize what you are truly selling AND what you are buying into. That insecurity is a big reason why people raise expectations rather high, and at the same time is the reason why they can get totally fooled or fall so hard.

Being able to 'settle' for someone gets treated like it's a capital crime in online dating, when it's NOT a bad thing. It's getting past that fear of failure. Stepping beyond your fear and being with someone is the very essence of a HEALTHY relationship.
 sundress2
Joined: 12/12/2015
Msg: 192
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 11:02:13 AM
I have a mild preference for a taller man. But overall height isn't that important to me. There are many things that I would consider before height
 darknight474
Joined: 1/12/2016
Msg: 193
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 11:16:03 AM

Being able to 'settle' for someone gets treated like it's a capital crime in online dating, when it's NOT a bad thing. It's getting past that fear of failure. Stepping beyond your fear and being with someone is the very essence of a HEALTHY relationship.


I would think if you are willing to "settle" for anything less than what you're looking for or what "fits" for you. that would in and of itself be the biggest drawback to actually having a healthy relationship.

I can't help but feel that type of rationality is nothing more than a salve for a wounded ego.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 194
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 1:15:23 PM
Coma: You’ve got me running around in circles, dude. Congratulations for making me dizzy.

So if YOU reject women because of their appearance, then what in the world makes you think women aren’t rejecting ME because of my appearance?

And the problem with this whole “beliefs” (aka “dealbreakers”) vs. “preferences” game always has been: there is no way to tell the difference. Which if there really are some women filling out a form that’s going to display as “What she is looking for: White/Caucasian” and hope most men are just going to register that as a “preference” because she’s really willing to date a guy of any race, then she’s perhaps too stupid to date. I might buy that a 5’1” woman who has a minimum height listing of 5’7” would maybe bend a little and date an awesome 5’6” guy (though probably not a 5’4” guy), but race/ethnicity is something else entirely. When people say they are only interested in dating white people, it is my experience they REALLY mean it -- that's not a sliding scale "range," that's just either you are or you aren't. There are social issues, there are historical issues, there are children issues, there are political issues, and there’s just the plain old “not physically attracted to races other than my own” issue – people usually don’t go out of their way to exclude entire races of people on a dating website unless it’s something far greater than just a “preference.” And I *know* it’s not a preference when they also mention it in their body text, even if they use the word “prefer.” Although on POF, women almost never use the word “prefer” – it’s almost always something much ruder than that. “I’m not down with the brown” is one of my all-time favorites, which I’ve seen more than a dozen times.

Quite frankly there are enough women whose qualifications I supposedly meet for me to not concern myself too much with the ones who have disqualified me. How is it an efficient use of one’s time to contact women who have explicitly disqualified you from contacting them? I mean, how often have you contacted women that explicitly disqualify you in their profiles? (That said... I’m sure you have not run into that very often. Even with height, most women pick a minimum height about 3 inches taller than them [freakin’ heels], and you are more than 3 inches taller than most women.)

“That's just as silly as thinking men are rejecting hundred of women because their waist to hip ratio doesn't exactly match the ideal as determined from studies.”

You’ve got this backwards. Men are rejecting hundreds of women because their bodies don’t appeal to them, and the studies quantify that behavior. I know that women aren’t reading studies that say “The majority of women prefer men that are at least 6 feet tall,” then saying to themselves, “You know, I should reject all men that aren’t at least 6 feet tall because these studies said so.” Rather, they are behaving that way, the studies capture the behavior, and I’m pointing out my experience mirrors the studies.

“I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. How many women did you ask out in person?”

Thousands over the years, but if you’re talking about from that particular period, not that many – you know, since I was working during those events. I did get rejected by a Hooters server in late December after all that stuff was over. I don’t have time to get into that episode right now because I’m late for something, but I already know what the criticisms of it are going to be... especially since I knew her for 3 years before asking her out. (Come and get me, Norwegian!) I also got rejected a lot on my birthday and New Years Eve by total strangers. I haven’t done anything social since because I’ve had to deal with a lot of business stuff (back to 7 days a week work).

“Being the average height of a girl is not enough to make you non-dateable.”

I’m actually more like 5’3”. My best friend made me lie up on my profiles. She really meant by several inches, but I figured women couldn’t tell the difference nor cared about the difference between 5’3” and 5’4” and the taller height would probably get me more searches and matches. I was at a teen-oriented movie last week which must have had several dozen teen and tween girls in the audience, and they were nearly all taller than me when we walked out.

“I see You never did Address Kim's Post, HawkingJR....”

I’m pretty sure she was primarily addressing one single situation. I’ve participated in enough bad ideas at this point to see one coming. In all honesty, I’ve probably been dateless for 9 consecutive years because after the last two REALLY bad ideas nearly got me killed/in jail, I decided it was best to avoid them, and there’s a pretty good argument that I could have ended that 9 year streak several times with females I found attractive but chose to take the wiser high road and continue suffering loneliness instead.

“I would think if you are willing to ‘settle’ for anything less than what you're looking for or what ‘fits’ for you. that would in and of itself be the biggest drawback to actually having a healthy relationship.”

Bah. It’s pretty rare to be able to check everything you want in a partner off your list, unless you’re a person without much of a list anyway. I’ve never had much of a list and still couldn’t check half the boxes off with anyone I’ve dated. (Has happened with a few women that wouldn’t date me! I suppose that says something in and of itself.)

“Hawking, what's your long term goal in dating?”

A long term, non-secretive relationship with a woman I find attractive – you know, just like “normal” people have. I could kill this account, my Match subscription, my eHarmony subscription, my OKC account, my Tinder app, my HON app and be the hell out of this warzone for the first time in almost a decade. I imagine how glorious it would be, then of course remember how dysfunctional my supposed “relationships” were, and also how likely I suffer from PTSD and am seriously scarred, and realize I’ll probably just be moving from one nightmare to another. But at least it’ll be something different!

The children factor will complicate things. If she’s younger, she’ll probably want them (and you’ve seen my opinion on me procreating); if she’s older, she’ll probably already have them. If you think it’s difficult to find a woman who will date an underachieving, far-shorter-than- normal, black-white mixed man, try to find one of those in her 30s+ who doesn’t have any kids, doesn’t want any kids, and is actually attractive, too. 10-15 years ago, this was not really an issue because the young women I was dating weren’t even remotely thinking about having children at that point in their lives, but now, it’s definitely a major problem. But what isn’t a major problem for me when it comes to dating? Such is life.
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 195
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 2:26:14 PM

I would think if you are willing to "settle" for anything less than what you're looking for or what "fits" for you. that would in and of itself be the biggest drawback to actually having a healthy relationship.

The difference between what people are looking for - and what actually 'fits' for their situation - is pretty much in a nutshell WHY people have so much trouble with online dating. They DON'T KNOW what they are capable of doing or being in the context of a relationship, and a lot don't even know what they want.

They can LOOK for anything and everything online because nobody is setting limits - but when the rubber hits the road, and it becomes a real life situation - that's when people get shocked by how the real world puts them in their place, and how their fantasy match ends up being a real, flawed human being after all. So many refuse to accept it, and dive right back into these dating sites hunting for more fantasies, or any alternative they can find OUTSIDE of actually working to build a real-life relationship with a real-life partner.

I swear as soon as someone invents some sort of virtual reality device that fools the mind into believing it's having real sex, this species will cease to exist. We are getting so habitual about relying on technology and the fantasies they create that we are becoming incapable of driving a car or reading a map or a bazillion other real-life activities.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 196
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 2:32:56 PM

You’ve got this backwards. Men are rejecting hundreds of women because their bodies don’t appeal to them, and the studies quantify that behavior. I know that women aren’t reading studies that say “The majority of women prefer men that are at least 6 feet tall,” then saying to themselves, “You know, I should reject all men that aren’t at least 6 feet tall because these studies said so.” Rather, they are behaving that way, the studies capture the behavior, and I’m pointing out my experience mirrors the studies.


Your experience is also a result of the way you act when you're talking to women, not just your height. You attitude is very negative and that can get in the way when you're asking out a woman. A man can be asking a woman for her phone number, but his body language says "reject me". As you said, the studies say height, like other attributes are a preference. You're way too hung up on them.


Quite frankly there are enough women whose qualifications I supposedly meet for me to not concern myself too much with the ones who have disqualified me. How is it an efficient use of one’s time to contact women who have explicitly disqualified you from contacting them? I mean, how often have you contacted women that explicitly disqualify you in their profiles? (That said... I’m sure you have not run into that very often. Even with height, most women pick a minimum height about 3 inches taller than them [freakin’ heels], and you are more than 3 inches taller than most women.)


It's not hard for a man to get dates with women taller than he is. Lots of my girlfriends were the same height or taller. Other men here can probably tell you the same thing - that they've dated taller women. Having a good attitude will get you dates faster than being insecure about things you can't change.


Thousands over the years, but if you’re talking about from that particular period, not that many – you know, since I was working during those events. I did get rejected by a Hooters server in late December after all that stuff was over. I don’t have time to get into that episode right now because I’m late for something, but I already know what the criticisms of it are going to be... especially since I knew her for 3 years before asking her out. (Come and get me, Norwegian!) I also got rejected a lot on my birthday and New Years Eve by total strangers. I haven’t done anything social since because I’ve had to deal with a lot of business stuff (back to 7 days a week work).


When you're talking about a waitress, you're talking about hired guns, and that can be different than approaching the average woman. If you're getting rejected by thousands of women in person, you need to look at your approach and your attitude. The way you communicate with people makes a huge difference in getting the phone number or getting turned down. Instead of looking at that, you're looking at things you can't change. I can only conclude that you don't want to work on the things you can change.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 197
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 4:50:49 PM

So if YOU reject women because of their appearance, then what in the world makes you think women aren’t rejecting ME because of my appearance?

Good point. You are going to get a lot of rejections based on that. I think the angle for some here is that one has to fool themselves into believing it's not much of an issue. Have confidence in something that one shouldn't be confident about. One must understand not many people are wired to do that at all, and there's a reason for it -- as it is kind of silly. BUT, at the same time, you are going to Maximize your results -- so on the results side, If you can truly bend your perception outside what truly exists as far as gals' tastes, yes -- your results will be higher. Much higher than statistics, because statistically, most people cannot wire themselves that way much at all. One can make the argument it's OK to lie to themselves / bend the truth, to garner better results. Kind of like burying experiences of being brushed off by girls and having the false sense of a higher batting average. That ends up garnering better results, assuming his game is at least decent.

I might buy that a 5’1” woman who has a minimum height listing of 5’7” would maybe bend a little and date an awesome 5’6” guy (though probably not a 5’4” guy)

IRL, if the 5'4" guy is in good shape with some muscular meat on his bones, with a face to her liking, that 5'1" gal, especially if he's at least loosely connected to her social circle, has a decent probability of taking a stab at that 5'4" guy if he has decent game. Online? Yeah, tough. But when you're a notably short guy, never base your luck in the dating world from online.

When people say they are only interested in dating white people, it is my experience they REALLY mean it -- that's not a sliding scale "range," that's just either you are or you aren't.

Yeah, for that demographic, you'll take a hit there, too. However, unlike taste for guys shorter than they themselves, you will find in a group of gals walking toward the bar, at Least one of them who's open to a guy who's of some color. Heck, some gals Prefer that. But yes, it makes you have to throw more incomplete passes to find a catchable receiver. Due to this, you don't want to be spending your social life time in environments where it's a high % of those who wouldn't date someone mixed or more. Which is why I rambled on about how important it is to change your environment, as one's assessment, even over the years of hitting up many gals IRL can be skewed due to places he hangs out at.

Men are rejecting hundreds of women because their bodies don’t appeal to them, and the studies quantify that behavior.

Yeah, but men are more open about looks, when it comes to body, VS women -- as far as just taking someone home is concerned. :)

I’m actually more like 5’3”.

Okay, fair enough. So you're 5'3" and some change VS 5'4". Although other people's perceptions about your situation may be too optimistic, as yes, there is a difference between guys 5'3" vs 5'7" as far as their dating luck's concerned... there are things you can do. If you REALLY wanted this, which would require a gear shift in how you go about life, see things, etc to some extent (which I'd bet $100 that no, you wouldn't want a change) -- here's what you'd want to do:

- Get height increasing shoes. Ones with 1"+change heels on them (that even some tall guys wear), BUT also have inner raised parts to it by about 1.x" or so. Go from 5'3" to 5'5". At least you'll be a little bit over a 5'1" gal in 3" heels. You can see them online (or IRL if you know someone) -- you can't tell.

- Work out to gain muscle. This is key for any guy who's more than just under average height. This will take months, but is good for you anyway, and gains you confidence. This will be very good / key for gals who are shorter than you (but still comparing you to other guys who are more taller than she). Built like a tennis player, although 'in shape', isn't going to cut it.

- Realize all the stats and such do hold water, but at the same time, realize that a VAST majority of guys in that dept are also not going to do anything about it. Kind of like a report I read about the % of highly obese people who actually get in shape and don't bounce back to being real obese again. EXTREMELY SMALL. Close to 0%. Even a pretty small % of those who ever even get to normal shape for a while (but bounce back later to some level of obesity). So an obese person could say "Hey, look at the stats! There's no way I can do this!" Yeah, there is no way if you do the Same Stuff everyone else does, yep. That 1%-5% of people who get things happen -- see a 100% level of change. You just can't be another-one-of-them, is all. Like losing a ton of weight AND keeping it off -- it's also tough and agonizing -- moreso than what most people can't/don't want to deal with -- to be that substantially shorter guy who ends up getting a cute gal here and there.
 michelinman2
Joined: 1/11/2016
Msg: 198
LADIES - I Will Die a Virgin
Posted: 1/23/2016 5:25:42 PM
I'm happy to see the "I Will Die a Virgin" thread is still going on.
 south_city
Joined: 10/12/2013
Msg: 199
LADIES - I Will Die a Virgin
Posted: 1/23/2016 7:31:14 PM

It's not hard for a man to get dates with women taller than he is. Lots of my girlfriends were the same height or taller. Other men here can probably tell you the same thing - that they've dated taller women. Having a good attitude will get you dates faster than being insecure about things you can't change.


Of course, it's possible for a shorter man to find dates. However they often have a smaller potential dating pool to work with. In particular with OLD. The same thing can apply to people that are black, significantly overweight, single parents in their 20s.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 200
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LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 8:27:43 PM
fullmoonguy

the guys with Ferraris, six feet tall and good looking are not in this murky pond looking for dates. So no brainer.
I agree comparing celebrities and wealthy men who are height challenged to the ordinary joe in the street is not using a level playing field.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 201
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LADIES - I Will Die a Virgin
Posted: 1/23/2016 8:32:10 PM
Who says it is easy for men to get dates with women who are taller than they are? Most women I know don't feel comfortable being taller than a guy.

"Lots of my girlfriends were the same height or taller" I call bs on that one. If you are wealthy and/or well built, maybe a few.....

As for online dating, your good attitude does not really show in pictures perhaps and if you are not of a certain height, the women just click next......
 Llove2laughtoo
Joined: 1/11/2016
Msg: 202
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/23/2016 9:49:36 PM

Msg: 200:
the guys with Ferraris, six feet tall and good looking are not in this murky pond looking for dates.


While still married to her, Christie Brinkley's ex-husband, millionaire Peter Cook had profiles on various dating sites, including A*.F*.F.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 3/29/2014
Msg: 203
LADIES - A Question of Height...
Posted: 1/24/2016 12:23:50 AM

the guys with Ferraris, six feet tall and good looking are not in this murky pond looking for dates.

hmmm, I guess the 6' tall, good looking, billionaire I met for a coffee date on match.com didn't get the memo.
 michelinman2
Joined: 1/11/2016
Msg: 204
LADIES - 40 year old virgin
Posted: 1/24/2016 6:20:26 AM
If you go to any mall, any sports event, any rock concert, any country music concert, ANY gathering of people and what do you see - men partnered with women. Tall men, medium height men, short men, skinny men, fat men....men, with partners. I guess there are a few at home bemoaning their lot in life and saying "I could have been a contender" if I was was only taller. But the vast majority are out there living life.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 205
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LADIES - I Will Die a Virgin
Posted: 1/24/2016 8:33:32 AM

Who says it is easy for men to get dates with women who are taller than they are?

I never heard anyone say that. At all. Lol.

Most women I know don't feel comfortable being taller than a guy.

Not just women you know, but women in general.

"Lots of my girlfriends were the same height or taller" I call bs on that one.

Oh, it's total BS, yep. Basically, any time someone remembers it happening, or thru their lives they've seen it in a crowd, they think it's uber-common. It's a routine human fallacy to assume something's real common when it's not. It's classic "bad intuition statistics".

As for online dating, your good attitude does not really show in pictures perhaps and if you are not of a certain height, the women just click next......

Oh, totally. Online is a visual assessment -- how good they look + the motif of the person. If it doesn't resonate with them (guy or girl), they move on -- of course.

But why is your subject "I will die a virgin"? You're 5'4", not 6'4"!
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 206
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LADIES - I Will Die a Virgin
Posted: 1/24/2016 11:28:31 AM
The question isn't "how many women will date a man shorter than her?"

Because many taller women will date a man that is shorter than her, but I think the cut off for the vast majority of women is around 5.5-5.6 regardless of how tall the woman is.

The question is, "how many women will date a man 5.4 or shorter?"

One way to get more clarification is for men that are 5.4 or shorter to relate their own experiences. But we only have 3 here, and the OP isn't chiming in any longer. So we only have two men with experience here.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 207
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LADIES - I Will Die a Virgin
Posted: 1/24/2016 11:29:16 AM

I call bs on that one. If you are wealthy and/or well built, maybe a few.....


You can call "BS" all you want, but it doesn't change the facts. I've never been wealthy, and the only thing my 6 foot tall ex girlfriend cared about is that I was monogamous. Someone told her that I wasn't monogamous, but when she got to know me everything fell into place. We're still friends and she lives a few blocks away. I've turned down women that were taller because we clearly weren't a good match, like the one that ended up becoming a missionary.


As for online dating, your good attitude does not really show in pictures perhaps and if you are not of a certain height, the women just click next......


Women are more likely to answer emails that stand out from the rest of the "Hi, how are you? I saw you like beaches. I like beaches too." Standing out and being different than the 50 boring men that just emailed her is more important than being tall.


Oh, it's total BS, yep. Basically, any time someone remembers it happening, or thru their lives they've seen it in a crowd, they think it's uber-common. It's a routine human fallacy to assume something's real common when it's not. It's classic "bad intuition statistics".


I'm not trying to play a game of statistics, I'm showing people that they don't need to be insecure and obsessed about their height. If you know what you're doing, you'll be too busy with women to care about one attribute that can be a preference for some people. For example Neil Strauss, 5'6, writer of "The Game" went from being the awkward guy that never had a girlfriend and never got lucky, even when he went on tour with Motley Crue, to being very successful with women after he got over himself and took some proactive steps to become better at communicating and building attraction. His height didn't change, so something else clearly changed.

This whole conversation is about copping out and feeling sorry for yourself. Guys love to endlessly debate crap like height because if they focus on what they can't change, they don't have to feel responsible for their mistakes and the things they can change. Do you think I care if there's a better looking guy in the building? So what if you're not a tall, dark, handsome man that can just walk up to girls and get instant attraction? Stop crying about the unfair advantage some guys have and try harder. There are hundreds of things you can improve instead of blaming the things you can't control. People are shutting down and giving up instead of rising to the occasion and elevating themselves. Women can tell when a man is insecure and obsessed about his height or other things he can't change.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 208
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Posted: 1/24/2016 12:04:51 PM

I'm not trying to play a game of statistics, I'm showing people that they don't need to be insecure and obsessed about their height.

I understand. And when one's overly pessimistic and overly insecure, the first reflex is to project the mindset that it's overly optimistic. Which can/does work to some people pretty well.

If you know what you're doing, you'll be too busy with women to care about one attribute that can be a preference for some people.

True... but putting it in perspective, it's a Big attribute when a guy's Very short -- and it's more than just a preference for the masses of average women on up -- and merely a 'preference' for Some gals shorter than said very short guy. That's why I try to be realistic when it comes to one's expected batting average -- Especially if they (like Hawking) would be starting from the ground up on their game in the beginning and have a pessimistic view underneath it all.

For example Neil Strauss, 5'6, writer of "The Game" went from being the awkward guy that never had a girlfriend and never got lucky, even when he went on tour with Motley Crue, to being very successful with women after he got over himself and took some proactive steps to become better at communicating and building attraction. His height didn't change, so something else clearly changed.

Oh, definitely. I'm by no means saying Hawking should give up -- quite the contrary. There's definitely positive female experiences he can have that he hasn't had in god-knows-how-long, that he's given up on thru the present era. He sees low low % chances and is flustered and it's not worth it -- all while he's gotten in a comfort zone not having to deal with all that. When someone tells him sky's the limit and that it's even close to easy for a 5'3" guy to nab girls taller than him -- it'll backfire, because no, it's not easy. In the beginning of The Game, when Neil goes to the initial group meeting with Mystery, and they all go out to meet/pick-up women, Mystery says something along the lines of "Prepare to get shot down," almost as if, yes, that's part of it (notably when learning), enjoy it -- it's part of the process. You have to treat it like being sore from working out -- it's OK. As a side note, like being sore, it can be a good indicator that things are happening/progressing, but it could also be bad (tearing ligaments/joints/pulling a muscle) -- meaning one does need to make sure their game is not bad.

Guys love to endlessly debate crap like height because if they focus on what they can't change, they don't have to feel responsible for their mistakes and the things they can change.

I don't think it's that with Hawking. I think Hawking understands that if I gave him the $10 million briefcase as a prize, his dating luck would be better. I think he believes that sure, Technically, 'I could' do this and that and squeeze out and date here and there -- but it's not worth it to him. He lacks motivation and desire for it, and I think his main argument feeds off of the overly-optimistic due to his over-pessimism.

Do you think I care if there's a better looking guy in the building? So what if you're not a tall, dark, handsome man that can just walk up to girls and get instant attraction?

I don't either -- nor do many guys when they at least have some things churning thru their dating life. It's when they hit a brick wall they do. The brick wall's more like 10 feet high to climb over, but from their perspective it's 100 feet high with barbed wire.

And short guys, especially really short ones like Hawking, Do need to step up and improve themselves to get it. But it's a cost/benefit thing to them. Yeah, "IF" I were to do X/Y/Z, which is pretty far out there from my perspective and semi-fantasy, sure, my luck would be better -- but the benefits of the luck you talk about -- I'm still out of touch with that. It's not worth it. You mine as well be telling me I have to train and get in great shape to run a 1k race with a great time. Well, sorry, I'm not interested in that. I guess technically I could get a great time if I did X/Y/Z, but is it worth it? And would I really get a Top 10 time? This all just seems so what-if to me -- and I'm not interested in a 1k race anyway. That's the mentality a typical guy in Hawking's position is thinking. He's Given Up. He sees the road Extremely uphill (more than it is) -- and the more people say that it's pretty much an even-level road (which it's not), the more he'll be convinced it's all fantasy land to drive over it.
 dragonbytes
Joined: 9/15/2015
Msg: 209
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LADIES - I Will Die a Virgin
Posted: 1/24/2016 12:10:32 PM

Women are more likely to answer emails that stand out from the rest of the "Hi, how are you? I saw you like beaches. I like beaches too." Standing out and being different than the 50 boring men that just emailed her is more important than being tall.


I agree with you.

And I don't see any point moaning about the fairness of dating, it isn't like that will change anyone's mind.

Maybe short men can relate a strategy that works well for short men, that might he helpful. But there aren't many of us on POF forum, and gentleman Jim (aka TGIF) was deleted so many times it looks like he isn't coming back to the forum.

I think TGIF used persistence, passion and a certain lack of high standards. Much like a telemarketer, he wouldn't take no as a final answer.
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