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 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 52
Women taking the lead?Page 3 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
and so might they :(


It takes years for culture to change b/c there are so many in power who like staying in power. Once the minority becomes the majority, however....
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 53
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 1/31/2017 7:20:57 PM

Hopefully over the years, socially it will be more socially OK for gals to be more proactive toward guys they may like, at least within social groups (which there is a bit of that compared to yesteryear already)


Women have been "proactive toward guys" for decades. I was lucky enough that many women threw themselves at me all though school. I wasn't even a BMOC or jock. So women were aggressive, even way back then. I know people here won't like this, as it smacks of bragging, but it is what it is. Something 'bout those southern women. Bible belt, Schmible belt, don't let that fool ya. In High School and College, mainly....but after that......it kinda waned to where the last few decades, including the last 10 years I was unattached, no woman ever made an overt move toward me. It just goes to support the theory that once you get out of school, things kinda start goin' downhill for the ol' love life.

The ironic thing is, once this all dried up, and got in the real world, I found myself a little behind the curve on how to be the aggressor....I could gab and dance, pretty decent at reading signals, showing some interest, and making a move, but unless a woman showed some interest back..I was gone. Was never into the "chase." If they needed to be convinced, I wasn't into it. Maybe I missed out on some good ones that way, alas.......

There was one time, about 20 years ago, I went to a Halloween party dressed as a Chippendale dancer, and, um........ and we had some needs-challenged adults living in the same apartment complex....and their little group came to the party. Well, this mentally challenged woman attached herself to me like a barnicle, and just wouldn't .....let go. She followed me around like a little puppy dog...and just stared at me. It was kinda awkward...she had poor language skills that I can recall.....but I was drinking heavily lol......and I felt guilty about trying to get away from her. ..I definitely not the type to be mean to anyone like that...and even felt too guilty to complain to their chaperone, lest I ruin the good time they were having.......so I finally took my Chippendale self elsewhere.

That was about the last woman to try to make a move on me.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 54
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/1/2017 7:05:36 AM
I've always been aware of my surroundings and watching other people. So, yes, I've seen proactive women. Its how I know looks matter, b/c these ladies sure weren't proactive with every guy. They weren't just flirty girls, or easy girls. Well, ok, some were boy crazy b/c daddy wasn't in the picture as much as he should have been. But sensual women love to feel sensual, and when a hot guy crossed their path, they did what felt good. But, there was a common factor that had to be there, and the word is "Comfort".

some of us fellows--usually the ones who haven't had it in a while and are dying for some attention--blow our chances with women. we do it b/c when she flirts with us, she may just want to flirt. but we want it to lead to the bedroom. We make a big deal about getting her attention, b/c it means something to us. to her, its just fun. If you're a guy who can just roll easily with a gal giving you attention, you may find you get more of it. but if a woman feels that giving you attention is going to get the "please release me from my unintentional dry spell! say that you desire me deeply, so I can feel worthy, and if I catch you flirting with the next guy, i'm going to be devastated as a result" reaction from you, she may not get all flirty with you. Typically, attractive men get enough reaction daily, that they don't act like a starving man in the desert whose just discovered a shotglass of water. which makes women comfortable enough to give them some more.

so at times, i can get a woman only a league above me to flirt, b/c she feels comfortable that its just going to be flirting and i won't take it or ask for it further. But in the same token, i can watch 9's and 10's walk away from me to drape themselves over the guy who's a 10.
 VikingHoosier
Joined: 5/8/2015
Msg: 55
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/1/2017 7:26:49 AM


Women have been "proactive toward guys" for decades. I was lucky enough that many women threw themselves at me all though school. I wasn't even a BMOC or jock. So women were aggressive, even way back then. I know people here won't like this, as it smacks of bragging, but it is what it is.


Saying you've been pursued isn't bragging, and it's subjective to say it's "lucky". Getting attention is often a nuisance, especially if the pursuer is female and the pursuee is male. Females often invent a fantasy about someone: "Oh my gawd, he is my one true love, we're going to marry and have many children..." Not just girls in school; some much older women have posted such things in these forums. Usually the fantasy doesn't last long, and she finds a new target, often before anything had a chance to happen with the previous guy.

It seems many girls are aggressive early, then withdraw after being rejected once or twice (or perhaps the guy she pursues turns out to be a monster). One girl who was aggressive towards me in 7th and 8th grade behaved differently in high school. A friend who wasn't aware of her until 11th or 12th grade considered her a wallflower. Many girls went after me in 7th and 8th grade, and I wasn't on any sports teams, and had seemingly undesirable "nerdy" characteristics: fair skin, wore glasses, got straight A's, didn't wear expensive collared shirts with little horsies on them. Sometimes when they asked me to go with them or asked me out, I would literally "just say no" without consciously thinking what I was doing, and I would say the "No!" as if being attacked. Those girls might be less likely to chase someone after getting such a reaction. After 8th grade, my manners improved, not that it mattered because once we reached 9th grade, girls were more likely to go after older dudes at the high school.

One girl in 7th grade made bold teasing remarks, once saying "I want us to embrace with my breasts touching your chest". Another group of girls in the same classroom made a raunchy card for me on Valentine's Day. They were a few tables back and I had heard them discussing making the card, so I was prepared. When they brought it over, I pushed it off the table onto the ground. Several of my buddies grabbed the card and read the silly words, with one friend expressing surprise that one of the girls (who seemed well behaved) participated.

I'm not into the bar scene and am not usually around drunk chicks, so don't usually have to deal with women who lose inhibitions after "having a few" and who might approach someone because of the liquid courage . The main place I encounter drunk gals is on float trips, and we tend to drift apart soon.

Women in the workplace seem to have lower standards. I was considered "work hot" (past tense because I'm retired from working for anyone else). The workplaces were like a return to junior high, with women giggling and likely inventing fantasies about people. Some of the men in those workplaces were childish too.



The ironic thing is, once this all dried up, and got in the real world, I found myself a little behind the curve on how to be the aggressor...


Wouldn't call that ironic. It makes logical sense someone who got pursued would be less likely to have experience taking the lead. The guy who gets pursued can go with the flow or can be on defense, as is the case with many pretty girls. Not necessary to learn and practice going after someone.

Online, Bumble makes the girl send the first message within 24 hours after two people match Tinder style. Many don't write within the 24 hours and the match expires. When they do send a first message, it's usually lame. Perhaps the ones who send decent first messages quickly find someone and leave the online sites.

In addition to fear of rejection, one reason a woman might not ask out a man is she's unwilling to pay.
 ebolakitty
Joined: 3/19/2016
Msg: 56
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/1/2017 8:41:23 AM
Msg 51 is looking at the right data and and offered us some conclusions but there is more.

In addition to the independent woman malarkey there is also the bare fact that economy is such that many men just can't do the "wine and dine" thing anymore. If you are working three part time jobs, all at minimum wage, that total to less than 3o hrs a week or you are part of the gig economy or drive Uber to supplement your MLM business then you just can't "wine and dine". It's impossible. The more men that get pushed to the economic margins, the less wine and the more whine you will get.

Women don't care about men's economic realities. Why should they? They don't need a man. They may need men as a group but not any particular man. They may want a man but unless he's hot, none want a man with a doubtful future. These days most men have a doubtful future.

All this means is less dating but so what?

There is also more to the Neanderthal thing. It isn't as much feeling entitled to sex as it is being disappointed by being insulted and getting nothing. These guys did their best and the brief hand shake or peck on the cheek means that his best won't do. She won't answer his texts or emails anymore. After a few times, he starts looking for evidence that is efforts have value. If she offered to wash his car or paint his bathroom then sex wouldn't mean as much to him because she valued his effort. It could be something simple. For instance back in my playa days, there was a peck on the cheek girl that I totally wrote off. Then she visited me in the hospital and brought me a potted plant. Never had sex with her but had plenty more dates with her because she showed me that she valued me as a person. To sum up, the neanderthal men are wanting immediate sex for validation as much as horniness.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 57
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/1/2017 11:00:02 AM

The ironic thing is, once this all dried up, and got in the real world, I found myself a little behind the curve on how to be the aggressor...

I think in many gatherings & parties in college, yes, it's easier. You're going to find Much fewer gals who are living on-campus at a University going online to meet a guy (although on Tinder can always be a fun-option to Play with) -- because there's tons of meet-n-greet surrounding them. It's about doing stuff like that in general, so obviously open/talkative/etc. So a generally social person will have a pretty good chance at many connections to start off with where the snowball effect occurs when going to student gatherings, parties, etc. It's not So fluid for everyone right when settling in there, but certainly more opportunities to create some fluidity vs "IRL" (living away from college environment).

I think the movie "Old School" should give some guys some ideas of going back to get more female opportunities - lol. The environment it can bring, can change a lot.

The ironic thing is, once this all dried up, and got in the real world, I found myself a little behind the curve on how to be the aggressor....

Well, as you pointed out, you didn't need to be an aggressor thus not too many then unrefined skillz to refer to, right? Yeah, in the real world outside of college living, it's a pretty different environment for how dating opportunities flow by default. Once can get lucky and get into social pockets with a lot of single people and social connections to meet singles coming and going... but usually for most, their social scene isn't quite as good/easy... and for most even living close to home, once nearing 30, with people getting married and some having started moving away some since the end of college -- you have to rely on chasing strangers if you want to be actively dating to your liking.

If you are working three part time jobs, all at minimum wage, that total to less than 3o hrs a week or you are part of the gig economy or drive Uber to supplement your MLM business then you just can't "wine and dine". It's impossible.

True. If you're pretty young, you can still do it in that mean-time while you're taking classes building up to get to a career... but 25+ doing that, the focus should be on getting oneself situated first in life, before thinking about finding someone else to bring into their life.
 PopCultureGeek
Joined: 11/27/2016
Msg: 58
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/1/2017 9:15:34 PM
Ya I never understood the logic behind why leading or taking the lead, taking initiative is part of masculine behavior, if there is a reason why the sky is blue, then there can be an explanation for that, because the long and short of it, it feels like a chore at times and if a guy views it like that, or he is just upset or complains about anything, he is labeled as having a victim mentality, but the other way around? Not as much
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 59
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/1/2017 10:12:36 PM

Ya I never understood the logic behind why leading or taking the lead, taking initiative is part of masculine behavior, if there is a reason why the sky is blue, then there can be an explanation for that

Women can take the lead on things when in a relationship -- but you're not referring to that, obviously. Taking the lead approaching a stranger they like -- yeah, in a simple but incomplete way... testosterone + social upbringing/expectations is much of the reason you're looking for... I think you just don't like it. :)
 ebolakitty
Joined: 3/19/2016
Msg: 60
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/1/2017 10:45:16 PM

Ya I never understood the logic behind why leading or taking the lead, taking initiative is part of masculine behavior, if there is a reason why the sky is blue, then there can be an explanation for that, ...


The sky is blue because of a physical process called Raleigh Scatter.


Taking the lead approaching a stranger they like -- yeah, in a simple but incomplete way... testosterone + social upbringing/expectations is much of the reason you're looking for... I think you just don't like it. :)


That is the false and political feminist ("women's way of knowing") dogma. Truth is that all sexually dimorphic species whether they have testosterone, a similar hormone or not have one sex that takes most of the initiative. It doesn't have to be the male. In species where the female is the larger of the two sexes they are the more enterprising of the two sexes -- even without the aid of testosterone. Mammals are the only animals with much in the way of social expectations. It could be argued that some birds do have them but that is more akin to interpersonal expectations than broadly social expectations.
 VikingHoosier
Joined: 5/8/2015
Msg: 61
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/2/2017 5:25:19 AM


Mammals are the only animals with much in the way of social expectations. It could be argued that some birds do have them but that is more akin to interpersonal expectations than broadly social expectations.


Can't agree with this. Plenty of insects are social (bees, termites, ants), and many other insects have complex interaction. Female moths have pheromones; female fireflies have light messages. Male insects often have amazing coloration and shape to attract mates, just as peacocks and primates do.

Many fish species have social interaction with specific gender roles. As usual, the male does most of the initiative and work, looking fancy, building a nest, using body language to show the boundaries of his territory, and going through other hoops. Reptiles and amphibians court too. Penguins and waterfowl have plenty of social behavior, including some dysfunction most common among humans.

It seems humans have some of the lowest standards / fewest expectations, with many humans blanking anything that moves. Cats seem to have even lower expectations, and bonobos (a species where the female usually takes the lead) seem to do it with anyone, but humans are "always in heat" and in a constant state of fornicating and breeding with just about anyone.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 62
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/2/2017 6:46:59 AM
probably b/c we get more pleasure out of it than most animals? I haven't studying animals in a long time, but I believe few do it for the fun of it. But there is a social status to having a virile mate or five in some, I think.
 ThroatLozenge
Joined: 3/2/2016
Msg: 63
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/2/2017 9:34:35 AM
My best experiences were with women that initiated contact with me.

I relished being in control :)
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 64
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/2/2017 11:22:15 AM

That is the false and political feminist ("women's way of knowing") dogma.

Women socially are already in a setting like that, Fact. The social norms keep that expectation in motion as the norm is also True. People, men and women, tend to go by social norms to such an extent, someone will complain on forums and such if it's to their clear disadvantage ("I don't like approaching girls, this is unfair, why can't they do the same").

Testosterone -- basically, as I said, in a simple and incomplete way. When a guy is higher on testosterone, they're going to have a lot more umph and courage approaching women. I'm not in any way saying the social expectation/norm of guys approaching girls on the stranger-level is surrounded by this and this is the only thing at all. But the more frisky you are (gals can be too at certain times of the month) the more reaching-out you are, than when you're not. The testosterone thing -- you're more daring, willing to take risks, take the bull by it's horns more, etc. It's an Example, not the complete picture. It's not the only thing, but to say that plays no role would be silly. Give an average guy some T-boosters and measure the difference (not a guy who approaches women on the stranger-level fluidly, nor a complete wallflower, to be fair).

But pound for pound, all things being equal on the norms, guys are going to be more forthright & risk-taking, etc in many things, this included. Society compounds that, which Makes it more fall into the (social) "risk" category to do that, when facing potential rejection (as society will raise an eyebrow; it's a conflicting social expectation - do it but also don't do it -- THAT should be the complaint, but I digress). If I was in God-mode and suddenly made every human think that it was norm/kosher/okay/cool for gals to approach guy strangers and believing that's the way it always has been -- I believe you'd see the frequency of gals approaching strangers IRL be more like it is Online. Which would be a great improvement, and would be a Hell-Yeah for guys, but still not equal.
 PopCultureGeek
Joined: 11/27/2016
Msg: 65
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/2/2017 12:20:19 PM
So that's all the women did with you, was initiate conversation with you first but then you did the rest of the initiating? Or did any women plan dates with you?
 Dragracer428
Joined: 1/1/2012
Msg: 66
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/2/2017 3:39:49 PM

So that's all the women did with you, was initiate conversation with you first but then you did the rest of the initiating? Or did any women plan dates with you?


Seems like I picking on you. LOL
Have had a couple of relationships with women who initiated a conversation, all I need to know is that there is some interest and away we go. Certainly I did the asking and planning if required after the initial POF message, why not, it's not hard. Difficult to find someone who does not like a meal at a decent restaurant or some theater, live music etc.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 67
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/2/2017 7:54:11 PM
PopCultureGeek wrote:

So that's all the women did with you, was initiate conversation with you first but then you did the rest of the initiating?
Yes, but I don't even count those as "women taking the lead." What I mean are more brazen things like them getting my phone # and calling (pre cell phone days..just dial 411) Or sticking their phone number in my back pocket, unbeknownst to me, where I found it later. Or sending word through others that they would like to jump my bones. Or...just pretty much a nonstop lustful stare......Or, I like this one....saying there was a guy at the party bothering them, could I pretend I was with them? A stranger. But not for long. Those types of thingsl are what I'm talking about.

Come to think of it, I was at a dive bar a few weeks ago and a woman (we were laughing and talking with her group) took my hand and put it on her boob. I must be rusty because I really didn't think too much about it, there was a lot of stuff going on (noisy bar, band, people moving around, drunk, etc.) but later I thought about it, and realized maybe she was trying to give me a message. *smacks forehead* So maybe I still "got" it...a little....but way too rusty to catch on in real time...alas, probalby many guys' problem. I suppose that was a bold come on. Considering my situation, probably better I didn't catch on.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 68
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/2/2017 7:57:00 PM
Viking Hoosier wrote:

Many fish species have social interaction with specific gender roles. As usual, the male does most of the initiative and work, looking fancy, building a nest, using body language to show the boundaries of his territory, and going through other hoops.


And they have a most sophisticated means to meet other compatible fish...it's a website called "Plenty of Humans."
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 69
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/3/2017 10:02:02 PM
I wonder how much they complain about all the sharks they meet on it.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 1/1/2017
Msg: 70
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/4/2017 9:42:36 AM
All I'm advocating is dating should be a shared experience, and the financial component should of course included. Nothing should be radical about that.

I think too many are getting hung up on the money part, anyway. Look at it from the point of view of the woman. If you behave according to traditional dating or relationship customs/mores' you're essentially leaving your dating success to chance. You're putting it almost entirely in the hands of the man. By not taking the initiative (and that means not just contacting someone and thinking you're work is done, but asking “them” out on dates and all the rest that comes with it) of who “you” like and want to go out with you're leaving it up to any guy that hits your profile and shows dogged determination to keep contacting you in the hopes he'll wear you down enough to date him (or block him if he gets too obnoxious). Do you really want it that way? Do you really want your dating life in the control of others? As far as I can tell from the behavior I've observed, most women do.
 SS4544Spd
Joined: 8/31/2016
Msg: 71
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/5/2017 10:31:45 AM


I wonder how much they complain about all the sharks they meet on it.


And I'm sure most of the males are only looking for a casual blowfish.
 ebolakitty
Joined: 3/19/2016
Msg: 72
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/5/2017 2:51:41 PM

Plenty of insects are social (bees, termites, ants), and many other insects have complex interaction. ...
Many fish species have social interaction with specific gender roles.


The behavior of fish and insects are one hundred percent instinctive. They don't have the neurological capacity for social behavior. It is impossible for a fish to like another fish. Cats sleep with other cats that they like and avoid others. Dogs that lose their masters or playmates mope. Termites don't grieve.
 ebolakitty
Joined: 3/19/2016
Msg: 73
Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/5/2017 2:56:21 PM

All I'm advocating is dating should be a shared experience, and the financial component should of course included.


Why is that? Shouldn't people suit themselves?
 PopCultureGeek
Joined: 11/27/2016
Msg: 74
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/5/2017 8:36:40 PM
ya, lets just say i hate, resent being dominant.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 75
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/5/2017 9:11:18 PM

Look at it from the point of view of the woman. If you behave according to traditional dating or relationship customs/mores' you're essentially leaving your dating success to chance.

If one's overly traditional -- you're leaving too much (not all) to chance. But a gal liking a guy within a social circle -- it's pretty common the guy's going to find out she likes him, so the mere-chance factor lowers. She's not doing herself any favors by not initiating anything, but it's not so bad. When the guy finds out ("Just to let you know, Sally likes you. You should ask her out."), he's not facing any fear-factor by approaching her when running into her again. A gal can have adequate control over things, but sure, it will have slight drawbacks when we're talking how most people prefer to meet others -- within social circle connections... but not by Enough.

But when it comes to meeting/approaching/mingling with STRANGERS -- yeah, that's a whole other ball game and the cost is higher, and leaving too much to chance.

Do you really want your dating life in the control of others?

Not too much. If a gal is complaining about not meeting enough (adequate) guys, she needs to amp up her outgoingness to said strangers. I don't think it's handing the keys over to someone else for full control of the vehicle though, to still keep their social advantage -- it'll just have to be More than liking a guy who's connected to their social circle.

But here's the thing... I think there'd be a mild but noticeable improvement if almost All gals did the little things they should to give a "runway" for a guy to approach them or ask for a #. But it wouldn't be any radical change. No more than one would notice going from one city to another much further away where sub-culturally it was tougher vs easier.

You're basically asking -- would I want guys to be in the position girls are in and vice versa -- where I wouldn't be in the position of what is a super-shy gal nor the upfront uncommon type who's outgoing and asks guys out? YES. The trade-off would be worth it. :) Again, I could position myself near girls and smile, make eye contact... that sort of stuff that I do Anyway... but girls would be the ones who are raised/conditioned that at the end of the day, they have to go out and make the first move on the guy for conversation and the first move on solidifying that they Like them (# exchange or initiating the suggesting/asking them out). Non-shy, social gals Can make it obvious where it's easy for a guy who likes her to roll with it. So with the social roles reversed, I'd expect the same and it'd be Much easier & fulfilling having fun. :)

ya, lets just say i hate, resent being dominant.

Well PopCultureGeek -- you don't have to be. There are many things you can do where you're not putting much pride or nerves on the line, where you'd be straight-up "shot down". It's good to do that, and your chances of landing a great gal will improve when doing that stuff -- but in the end, you can still get the ball rolling and gain some successes without any social risks. So no, being dominant is not required. However, related to that concept, what is good to make girls have an attraction is not to have withdrawn/nervous body language when interacting/mingling... but a feeling that you're someone who could be dominant if they wanted to.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 1/1/2017
Msg: 76
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Women taking the lead?
Posted: 2/6/2017 5:42:27 PM
I've seen women spend “years” on dating sites like these. Like most men that have dated for any length of time I hear what women say about the process and why they're still single—the lack of quality choices and having to put up with crude, nihilistic horndogs who just want to hook up and have no larger relationship goals. I then ask what they're doing about it. What concrete steps are they doing to change their circumstances? Almost to a woman what I get in return is, well, I put a dating profile up? I hit the Like or Quick Message button? I sometimes send a (simple, short) message. I mean, sheesh, isn't that enough?? They make it sound like spending five minutes filling out a profile, clicking buttons, or merely “visiting” someone is somehow so exhausting they need to take a nap. Sorry, that isn't what I'm talking about regarding being proactive and taking the initiative. Not even close.

What I'm saying about the dating process being dysfunctional and broken should not be earth-shatteringly provocative or revolutionary. The signs are all around us. If "the guy should always take the lead" orthodoxy doesn't change or get a radical overhaul and most women stick to the old, out-of-date, traditional dating behavior I think the vast majority are going to left out in the cold, or settle for a less-than-ideal partner. If women aren't more proactive and take more control of their dating lives then I don't think they should complain about the dearth of quality choices available to them.
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