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 LJane_6
Joined: 6/10/2015
Msg: 1126
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Importance of heightPage 46 of 51    (11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51)

you should be very Appreciative when he Does


I am. Just because I think men should pay on the first date, doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate it when they do. But again, I’ll say thank you. Once when he offers to pay, and again at the end of the night (“thanks for the coffee,” or whatever). I’m not going to act as though I’m amazed and make a big production out of it. Lol


you and I could bet money in Vegas that he'll still pay because that's what many of us guys will do regardless -- as we know whether it's the better path to a woman's interest.


Exactly. Most of us know this. So when he DOESN’T pay, it makes me think he must not be all that into me. That’s why I feel offended, (because I assume he lacks interest), not only because it’s a thing he *should* do.


But that doesn't mean you Actually Deserve it as if it's owed to you


Ok, but most girls are going to prefer the guy who is willing to take a lady out and treat her than one who is all, “I’m a great guy for doing this, and you don’t actually deserve it, so you’d better be grateful.”


why would it raise an eyebrow if it was a free meal at a popular place you two knew about?


It would depend on the guy and the circumstances, honestly. If he was a nice and attractive guy, I’m sure most women wouldn’t mind. But if he was otherwise annoying, or seemed overall like he might be a cheapskate (for example, he insisted on that place because he had a free coupon), then it would not likely score him any points. Either way, though, it’s better than going dutch and certainly not a deal-breaker, as dutch would be for some.


Again, the potential "bad" part isn't toward her friends when chatting with them without hitting on anyone that comes and goes in social settings -- it's on her, giving her the false impression you're not into her. But how "Bad" is that, really?


Well, you seem to be strongly against deception (as you accused me of being deceptive when offering to chip in for the bill), so, do you think trying to give that false impression is “bad” or not? As far as I’m concerned, the situation started out pretty bad when I thought you were targeting the Ugly Friend to get the hot one’s attention. It’s not as bad now, but it’s a form of negging (ignoring the hot girl to make her doubt herself), which I’m not a fan of. And from my own experiences with negging, I’ve found it most often backfires. Then again, being overly aggressive when pursuing the hot girl is also a turn off, and as you say, she gets enough of that from guys already. Probably the “best” thing to do, in terms of being “good,” is to be nice/friendly to all of them initially, and later try to pursue the one you’re interested in. However, depending on the girl, I don't know if that would be more or less effective than the PUA approach.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 1127
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Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 10:26:56 AM

Just because I think men should pay on the first date, doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate it when they do.

But there's different levels of appreciation. A guy who lobbies you for a while to Take you out on a date -- and you finally say 'yeah fine' -- and yeah, he pays. Sure, you say thanks -- but there's only so much appreciation that's actually there, especially if you're doing him a favor too. It'd be a Stretch to call that "Appreciation", especially if you thought a great guy merely asking if you'd like to go out sometime Is Supposed To Do It anyway. And as a side note, saying thanks is being polite -- it doesn't mean feeling appreciation.

Our differences lie where he Didn't ask to Take the girl out, but he does pay. You still think he's Supposed To Do It-- which wittles down the appreciation VS believing that he didn't have to. But to be fair, even if you realized he wasn't Supposed to do it, it being so common that he does anyway -- even with girls he's not That into -- that does decrease the level of appreciation to the dating scene in general to some degree.

If a gal's willing to drop what was seemingly a datable guy because he didn't pay the whole bill when he didn't ask to Take her out -- it obviously calls into question if there would have been any Actual *appreciation* for him doing so, right?

So when he DOESN’T pay, it makes me think he must not be all that into me. That’s why I feel offended, (because I assume he lacks interest), not only because it’s a thing he *should* do.

I don't think most women who get put off see it that way, if it was a date-date. I most get upset because they believe he's Supposed to, and that he's a cheap-skate. Now, if you DID agree with me that when a guy casually asks if she'd like to go out sometime where that does Not Mean 'Take Her Out' -- and he opts to split the bill -- I could see translating that into at least potential lack of interest on his part, given the commonality of guys doing it anyway. But a guy, even if he's not that interested in her -- if he asked to Take her out, he asked to Take her out -- so when they are out, he's Supposed to pick up the bill. If he reneged going from Take Her out to splitting it -- that's a reason to be WTF. There's possibly a lack of interest on his part, but it's more of a false promise that's the issue.

Ok, but most girls are going to prefer the guy who is willing to take a lady out and treat her than one who is all, “I’m a great guy for doing this, and you don’t actually deserve it, so you’d better be grateful.”

Very few if any are going to say something like that, of course. Most guys are going to prefer the girl who doesn't see it as something he Owes her, when he didn't ask to Take her out. Much more leeway on a 1st date, don't get me wrong. But 2nd/3rd/4th/etc -- guys like me who don't mind paying are going to start being turned off by a gal who by demonstration believes that because he's male, she Deserves everything bought & paid for.

If what you've said earlier *IS* true, where after a 1st date, you'd pay for at least a quaint date of sorts since he got the first -- and do trade-offs... guys are going to like that more than gals who believe he is Supposed to pay for all dates, barring once-in-a-great-while exceptions, when she's financially just fine.

If he was a nice and attractive guy, I’m sure most women wouldn’t mind.

I think a lot of gals would mind, but...

But if he was otherwise annoying, or seemed overall like he might be a cheapskate (for example, he insisted on that place because he had a free coupon), then it would not likely score him any points

... although I don't see how him being annoying VS nice & attractive has anything to do with it (except yes, human bias) -- the way he carries it out does have an effect, of course. Saying "No, TGIFriday's only because I have a coupon!" is tacky. Or running out to his car to dig up a 5% off one is too. So yeah. But if she sees he's quietly paying with a buy-one-get-one-free -- where hers is assumingly free off the coupon -- you'd be surprised... on one of the first few dates, a lot of girls would be unfortunately turned off (some not). A lot of gals would see that by itself as tacky, even though it's just something they merely noticed. They want a financial sacrifice on their behalf -- as a form of effort, caring, etc. He's "Supposed To".

Either way, though, it’s better than going dutch and certainly not a deal-breaker, as dutch would be for some.

From your POV on a 1st date, or anyone's when the guy seems to have asked to take the gal out, sure. Now, what about a date after that? After all, you said you're a fan of i-got-this-one-you-got-next. Even if the more heavier outings were covered by him and the lighter ones were covered by you... certainly splitting a bill in another instance wouldn't be something suddenly Bad, would it?

Well, you seem to be strongly against deception (as you accused me of being deceptive when offering to chip in for the bill), so, do you think trying to give that false impression is “bad” or not?

They're Completely different though. One's Baiting a Date into doing something and calling them out in the negative if they bite (your fake offer). The other is being Passively deceptive in pretending they're not into mingling with a stranger who they actually think is really hot (positive result). There are no false promises or the like. Is it bad, because it's sneaky, and the intent is to see if it'll uncover potential interest into some interest? No, I don't think so. However, if he tells the gal what his hidden 'game' was, while in bed later that night, she'd likely chuckle about it -- certainly not get upset. At worst, when skeptical of guys, spark a few trust issues. ("Yeah, that worked. Wow, he's sneaky good... is he a player?"). Now, what if you told him laying on the couch for a night-cap after the date you did a fake-offer and you two wouldn't be sitting there if he bit? :)

In the end, one the Fully Accepted classic things to do is to Hold Off on projecting too much interest in someone we don't know, so as to not scare them off. It takes it a step further to give them the Indirect (false) impression that you're not so attracted to them, by Clearly not engaging them which virtually all guys do. In the very least, it will lower the (hot) gal's guard that would have been likely be too high up anyway, as she's not going to think of him as yet-another-guy pawing at her. As I pointed out, many people do this out of shyness to some extent, without even thinking too much about it.

As far as I’m concerned, the situation started out pretty bad when I thought you were targeting the Ugly Friend to get the hot one’s attention.

If I start chit-chat with an unattractive gal (again, not Hitting on her) -- but it's Genuine bantering/convo as I'm waiting for a drink at the bar, and she's got a hot friend next to her -- I don't see the crime in that, as long as, again, I'm not leading that gal on in anyway as I'm not flirting with her. However, this would be different, as if it's Hot & Ugly, where you wouldn't want the Ugly one... none of your attention toward one would mean all attention toward the other ONE person. So it'd be hard not to come across with potential interest if you're sitting there for too long.

That's why it's about hitting up a Group, with the ideal Hot one included. Your attention is divy'd up amongst the rest. You're not chasing/targetting any one gal, or hitting on any of them. Just social-scene bantering.

I don't think it's negging either party -- whether it be the ugly, average, or cute friend -- or the Hot friend that one would ideally want. All it is, is general mingling (which every guy should brush up on) -- and ignoring the hot one in the Group during the initial phase of it all. It sets the tone "He's not chasing you; he doesn't seem to have much interest, if any...?" That can be actually a relief for some gals. Just because it also potentially bumps things up in my favor as far as garnering her interest by being different, doesn't mean she would have rather had me macking on her from the 1st second, and ignoring her friends.

However, in this situation -- many times it's common to Razz -- or even neg-hit the hot one as you put it, yes. When bantering really well with the two other gals, laughing & chuckling, the hot one throws in a tidbit, and you throw a little razzing joke in response. Or when engaging with, say, all 3 gals, you only say something within the initial phase to the hot ideal gal, by an offhand harmless neg hit like "My grandmother has a [blouse/necklace/etc] just like that one," just in passing when your eye contact and body position is toward the two gals. :)
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 1128
women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/15/2016 11:29:11 AM
If I was offended by all the women who obviously aren't interested in me, i'd waste the day being offended. and no one would notice :) but then, hey, I know my ranking on the scale, so I know my place in dating, lol. I can believe women aren't interested in the guy who makes a big deal of treating them, b/c he obviously has an ulterior motive. But I think most ladies will prefer the fellow who pays the way who actually has more to offer than just that. he's got to offer some company. If he's a cheapskate, there's a reason to dump him before even finding out he's a cheapskate. he's a man with ulterior motives. he only gives to get.

i'd say the purpose of a date, is to get to know someone. if you get stuck paying the bill, in order to find out that person isn't what you're looking for in a long term partner, then you paid some money up front to avoid heartbreak in the future(but then i'm likely a cheap date, a bill for two with a friend seems to run $30 here. I guess it could go higher with booze, and maybe that's why I suck so much at dating, I want the other person sober). I agree, if the fellow is pleasant and easy on the eyes, any venue is fun. I just had lunch with a friend, five pepper shrimp on pasta with plum tomatoes and zucchini in a lobster bisque. dumb in this heat and humidity, but she's a smart conversationalist, so it was worth getting sweaty al fresco and swatting the bugs.

negging rarely works on the secure. I've gotten some attention with it, but it never got me a number. in the end, women still want the attractive fellow. the games only work for those 5 seconds, and then attention is on whatever's going on next. but if your brand of negging is playful banter/teasing, well, there's a place and time for having fun like that. it can even cross the line into flirting.
 LJane_6
Joined: 6/10/2015
Msg: 1129
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women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/15/2016 12:17:03 PM

One's Baiting a Date into doing something and calling them out in the negative if they bite (your fake offer). The other is being Passively deceptive in pretending they're not into mingling with a stranger who they actually think is really hot (positive result).


I’ve said so many times that if they accept the offer to split, I’ll pay the bill. That's not "calling them out." I might be disappointed and question their level of interest, and whether I want to keep dating a mildly interested guy. But I’m not going to confront them about it then and there.

So, you believe that what I’m doing is deceptive in the negative, and what you’re doing is “passively deceptive” with a positive result. That's a convenient way to look at things. It only took you several mini-essays to try to rationalize it.


but then, hey, I know my ranking on the scale, so I know my place in dating, lol.


You don’t have to put yourself on a scale, though. Sure, be realistic about the women you go for (like, I’m not expecting to go for Channing Tatum, just as men shouldn’t expect to get a model half their age), but realize that women can be pretty varied in our types if we have a good connection with someone. Telling yourself “I’m a 5 so I’m screwed” is not helpful. But I do it too, so I should really take my own advice.


negging rarely works on the secure…in the end, women still want the attractive fellow.


Actually, I’m most attracted to confident guys who don’t play games. And, I’ve realized that in order to attract someone like that, I have to offer the same. There has to be physical attraction, yes, but looks are not the top priority. As I’ve said multiple times, I think men place more importance on looks that women do.


if your brand of negging is playful banter/teasing, well, there's a place and time for having fun like that. it can even cross the line into flirting.


That's not really negging, though (at least, not the way I understand it). I believe that negging is when you try to make the other person doubt themselves, or bring their self-esteem down a notch so they see you as a better catch. Playful banter and teasing are not the same thing as put-downs.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 1130
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women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/15/2016 12:57:27 PM

I’ve said so many times that if they accept the offer to split, I’ll pay the bill. That's not "calling them out."

Calling them out -- I wasn't implying out loud. I was talking about in another tense. Looking them down in the negative if they Bite. It's actually crude if you end up looking negative at them afterward. I know, I know -- "He's supposed to know it's fake tho," many will say. Well, especially if he didn't ask to Take you out -- no, they're not all Fake in reality, so it shouldn't always be presumed. Some women Want to. At least move toward your purse and say "I can help out IF you want me to". If he lets you grab the tip -- appreciating you chipping in for an act of comradary, do you think he has a lack of interest? He's still getting the (main) bill. It's no more different than him grabbing it and saying "Naw... you can get me a beer at the bar down the block." Would either be disappointing and/or an expression of questionable interest?

If you look down upon them for taking you up on your offer to -- how is that Not playing games? Because it's common? Common means certain game playing is more tolerable because they are more exposed to it. Doesn't mean it's not playing games.

I can believe women aren't interested in the guy who makes a big deal of treating them, b/c he obviously has an ulterior motive.

That wasn't implied at all, though. It's if he finds out that she feels Entitled to be paid for when he didn't ask to Take her out... or that she feels that any date, unless of an uncommon occasion, she is Entitled to be paid for -- many a guy, including myself who pays virtually all the time by default, are going to lose at least some level of interest (sheesh, what's up with her?). Not that he wants big deals made when he does.

But I think most ladies will prefer the fellow who pays the way who actually has more to offer than just that.

I think most men prefer the lady who offers more than her being there or to contribute when appropriate.

he's got to offer some company.

So does she. It's not a talent show where he's the contestant, and she's the panel of judges, right? :) I mean, there can be dates clearly like that where he's trying to win her over, but apart from that...

If he's a cheapskate, there's a reason to dump him before even finding out he's a cheapskate.

I think you're looking at it too 1-way. What about the gal being a cheapskate? And for the record, I don't think LJane is one if she's honest about saying the guy should always pay for the 1st date (unless I guess asked to be taken out by the gal) -- and the gal to follow, and then vice-versa, vice-versa as the dates possibly go on.

With that said, does a gal being a cheapskate Never apply to the dating scene? :)

he only gives to get.

And what is the lady giving besides her presence? Agreeing to a date is the giving?

negging rarely works on the secure. I've gotten some attention with it, but it never got me a number. in the end, women still want the attractive fellow.

I agree that at the end of the day, she's going usually want a guy who's roughly in her league at least (attractive in her eyes). A below-average Joe in a tank top-- no, he's not going to get the Hottie dolled up like Cinderella, no matter what he does. But, as long as a guy's not unattractive in her eyes when looked upon in an intriguing light, especially with something perked (and alcohol in the mix), something can jostle loose with some luck.

Negging can work on the secure, though. The Insecure is going to get Pissed Quick, and can be less effective. Negging working is piquing curiosity. Razzing in the negative sense, of "just playing" with that tone is called negging, when it's not Really that negative. An insecure gal can take friendly razzing or a seemingly honest compliment about her blouse being just like his mom's -- the same as actually Negging a very secure gal. Either way, it's Ballsy to do strong negging. Razzing/just-playing is the safest way to go. Secure gals will at least have a sense of relief that he's not one of yet-another-guy trying to woo them.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 1131
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Posted: 8/15/2016 1:27:12 PM

But to purposely focus on those we find less attractive in hopes of getting that one’s attention is at the very least manipulative.


How is it manipulative? It would be pretty stupid to bust into a group of people you don't know and pay no attention to anyone but the one you find the most attractive. Almost as stupid as ignoring her parents or family if she's with them.
 LJane_6
Joined: 6/10/2015
Msg: 1132
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women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/15/2016 1:45:16 PM

"He's supposed to know it's fake tho,"


No, he’s *supposed* to pay on the first date. If he does accept the offer to go dutch, that’s not wrong in a moral sense. She offered, which is the polite thing to do, and it’s not a sin for him to accept. But, most of us assume that an interested guy will pay. Whether it’s a deal breaker or not would depend on how the rest of the date went - for example, if he was nice and seemed otherwise interested. A girl who’s into a guy will likely give it another shot. But if it was a so/so date to begin with, that’s not going to help. Either way, him accepting the offer to go dutch is still much better than him outright asking to go dutch, or assuming it.


Some women Want to.


Yes, some women want to, and others will insist on it. I’ve done that myself if I wasn’t into the guy, even if he tried to refuse, because I didn’t want to lead him on by accepting his offer to pay.


If he lets you grab the tip -- appreciating you chipping in for an act of comradary, do you think he has a lack of interest? He's still getting the (main) bill.


That’s not what we were talking about! Stop twisting my words around to bait me into more arguing. I already said a while back that chipping in for the tip or dessert is different – I was talking about going dutch.


I don't think LJane is one if she's honest about saying the guy should always pay for the 1st date (unless I guess asked to be taken out by the gal) -- and the gal to follow, and then vice-versa, vice-versa as the dates possibly go on.


I don't think it should necessarily be 50/50, though. I do think the girl should cover some costs, or do things like cook dinner for him, etc. But in the early dating stages, being treated more often by the guy is nice. Once the relationship is more established, it should move to 50/50, I think.


An insecure gal can take friendly razzing...the same as actually Negging a very secure gal.


Just because she can take it doesn't mean it's going to "work." A secure girl might see it for what it is, and not be threatened by it, but that does not mean she will think highly of the guy who does it.


it's Ballsy to do strong negging. Razzing/just-playing is the safest way to go. Secure gals will at least have a sense of relief that he's not one of yet-another-guy trying to woo them.


Playful teasing is fun, and yes, secure girls will like that. Negging to try to take someone down a notch by using put-downs is not going to attract truly secure people, but more so insecure ones. The insecure girls are the ones who will start to doubt themselves and try to win the guy's approval. The secure ones won't let it affect them, and move on to an equally secure guy.
 LJane_6
Joined: 6/10/2015
Msg: 1133
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Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 1:50:58 PM

How is it manipulative? It would be pretty stupid to bust into a group of people you don't know and pay no attention to anyone but the one you find the most attractive. Almost as stupid as ignoring her parents or family if she's with them.


It's manipulative because you're basically using the unattractive girl as a means to an end (getting the hot one). I'm not saying you should barge into a group of people and go straight for the hot one, either. Mingling with the group without targeting anyone in particular should work out fine. But if there's just 2 girls, and you purposefully approach the less attractive one just to get to her friend? Yeah, that's not cool.
 Ladyinred0407
Joined: 2/6/2016
Msg: 1134
Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 1:58:54 PM
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ AND Allllllll the way to page 47!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 1056 AM

Just because I think men should pay on the first date, doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate it when they do.

ONLY tall men "should pay", .........................Oh wait a sec, sorry my bad, I got that wrong.
ONLY SHORT men should have to pay.........................(scratches head)...Damnit!......... I hate it when I forget the rules!!!!!!!!!

HOW the F did THIS thread become THAT thread???????????????????????

I have no doubt the horse is ready to be dog food.

Carry on!
 LJane_6
Joined: 6/10/2015
Msg: 1135
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Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 2:06:14 PM

ONLY tall men "should pay", .........................Oh wait a sec, sorry my bad, I got that wrong.
ONLY SHORT men should have to pay.........................(scratches head)...


LOL


HOW the F did THIS thread become THAT thread???????????????????????


I don't even remember anymore... :'( I do remember saying WAY back that I didn't want this to turn into a "who pays" thread...but the force was just too strong...sorry :/
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 1136
Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 2:36:36 PM
No one pays as they never go on dates. :/
I wonder what Ed and Sally ( or whoever those people are NG always is referencing) would say?
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 1137
Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 2:39:56 PM
^ They got bored, and left.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 1138
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Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 8:29:03 PM

It's manipulative because you're basically using the unattractive girl as a means to an end (getting the hot one). I'm not saying you should barge into a group of people and go straight for the hot one, either. Mingling with the group without targeting anyone in particular should work out fine. But if there's just 2 girls, and you purposefully approach the less attractive one just to get to her friend? Yeah, that's not cool.


That's usually what men and women do, even if it's totally unconscious. They know the that more attractive man or woman is used to getting all the attention and they don't want to be seen as another number. The reason why people are talking about what works is because they're copying what people who are naturally good at dating do, so it basically started off as something "not cool" but effective, and yet totally unplanned and natural.
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 1139
Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 8:35:27 PM

It's manipulative because you're basically using the unattractive girl as a means to an end (getting the hot one). I'm not saying you should barge into a group of people and go straight for the hot one, either. Mingling with the group without targeting anyone in particular should work out fine. But if there's just 2 girls, and you purposefully approach the less attractive one just to get to her friend? Yeah, that's not cool.


That's usually what men and women do, even if it's totally unconscious


I never approach people when I'm unconscious.

I consciously know what I'm doing whenever I approach someone.

I talk directly to whoever it is that I found attractive, and include others who might be there in the conversation if they are interested in joining in, but my main focus remains on the one I found attractive and wanted to talk to in the first place.

I'm logical that way.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 1140
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Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 9:25:04 PM

I never approach people when I'm unconscious.

I consciously know what I'm doing whenever I approach someone.

I talk directly to whoever it is that I found attractive, and include others who might be there in the conversation if they are interested in joining in, but my main focus remains on the one I found attractive and wanted to talk to in the first place.

I'm logical that way.


What makes it logical? It seems to be the opposite of what naturals do.
Also, it highly depends on the situation and depends if the person you're talking to is someone used to getting non stop attention or not.
 InnerGorilla2
Joined: 8/1/2016
Msg: 1141
Importance of height
Posted: 8/15/2016 9:33:42 PM

I talk directly to whoever it is that I found attractive, and include others who might be there in the conversation if they are interested in joining in, but my main focus remains on the one I found attractive and wanted to talk to in the first place.


This works sometimes, but many times it doesn't. Why Because the moment you hone in that hot girl and leach to her, her shield goes up like a Star Trek star ship. And you are just conversation or perhaps something to be used for wine, food, or blocker of more annoying males. If you actually want that girl, you have to let go. Move around, approach, let go, and see if at some point she approaches you.

My personal success has been that most of the times that I went after her and stayed focused on her. I got nothing. When I sort of liked her, ignored her, approached other people, until she came back because she found me interesting. Success. And it was totally mutual.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 1142
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women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/16/2016 12:04:32 PM

No, he’s *supposed* to pay on the first date.

If he's *Supposed* to pay -- not "it'd be nice if he did" -- then (a) Obviously there can only be so much appreciation for him doing something he's damn well supposed to be doing, and (b) Why in the hell are you Faking an offer?

If he does accept the offer to go dutch, that’s not wrong in a moral sense.

It's wrong in the moral sense if he asked to Take you out. Going dutch means splitting it at or near 50/50, btw. Saying "Okay, I guess... here just... get the tip, I guess." Isn't going dutch.

She offered, which is the polite thing to do

It is polite ONLY if she Means it, where it's going to have NO EFFECT on her view of him if he accepts to what she (allegedly) genuinely offers. It Does have an effect to you, hence, you're Lying when you offer, as you're pretending you'd like to without any judgment repercussions if he accepts. So no, you're not being polite. You Don't really mean it if it's going to have an effect on how you view him -- when you believe he is Supposed to. Potentially giving him "another shot" -- wow. I cannot believe you can't see your move as being disinegenuous. I know your overall intentions are good, but you've been conditioned thinking it's polite. Listen, if it's going to have ANY negative effect on your view of him -- don't play games, don't do it. It's not polite in that case.

I’ve done that myself if I wasn’t into the guy, even if he tried to refuse, because I didn’t want to lead him on by accepting his offer to pay.

So this is where you MEANT to do it, and not being fake. This is Why you don't play the fake versions of it. It can be taken the wrong way. The guy you're interested in if he did pretty much ask to Take you out will think there's a lack of interest if offered to pay your half, and the guy you're Not interested in may think "oh, she's just being polite". Your position is only fueling confusion in the dating circle. :)

Only offer to pay some when you believe you Are obligated to some degree *or* when you Want to. It is Not polite to do so when you are Not obligated to and you don't want to. You believe he is Supposed to (see above), hence you're not obligated to. AND you don't want to. How in the world do you see your faux offer as Not misleading, but instead Polite?

That’s not what we were talking about! Stop twisting my words around to bait me into more arguing.

No, I wasn't saying you were saying that, I was bringing up what easily Can happen, and wondering how you thought. Okay, getting the tip or getting dessert somewhere else or a drink for a nightcap or whatever -- OK. That's cool. :)

I don't think it should necessarily be 50/50, though. I do think the girl should cover some costs, or do things like cook dinner for him, etc. But in the early dating stages, being treated more often by the guy is nice. Once the relationship is more established, it should move to 50/50, I think.

Cooking dinner is not often in the early dating steps -- except for people who move Really fast (or I guess they were friends for a long time beforehand, in which early dating is many times very different).

But if the guy gets the 1st date, and why do you go to pay for the 2nd date? That totally sets the tone of roughly on/off/on/off. What you should do instead is get the end-part of something. Like on pretty much all dates, just chip in on the small end, and several dates down the line pay the whole thing. 75/25-ish in the end. FYI: Don't go for buying him the 2nd date, as that means as you implied, "Oh, I just like the 1st date paid by the guy," and with a "and we more or less trade off afterwards, as I'm paying pretty much the whole *2nd* date."

How is it manipulative? It would be pretty stupid to bust into a group of people you don't know and pay no attention to anyone but the one you find the most attractive. Almost as stupid as ignoring her parents or family if she's with them.

Good way of making what I was saying more clear. LJane was seeing it as me chasing/flirting/hitting-on the others, when that's not the case. You're not Using the others as a pawn in your game, any more than warming up to a gal's parents -- using them to more garner her interest (or to avoid disinterest by schmoozing with them well). In this case, it's even more innocent than being Eddie Haskel talking to Mr & Mrs Cleaver. You're just merely mingling like you would/could anyway. It's just about being in the Ideal girl's space for a while, basically ignoring her for a while, making her either question wanted attention or guard goes down because establishing that apparently you're not chasing her in any way shape or form, even on a friendly/mingling level.

Playful teasing is fun, and yes, secure girls will like that.

Yeah, especially if he has established he's Not even coming remotely close to approaching her, which she has a fear of when at the bar by (ugh) too many guys. Razzing them is in the negative zone, but in a playful way. How one takes it depends on their esteem & sensitivities. You do it the right way, it's not being Sweet & friendly, nor is it flirtly playful teasing banter either! What is it? Ahh, when done right, she doesn't quite know, he's not being flirty at all, he is razzing me, he seems to be playin' around but his attention's toward them....? She may very well be inclined to find out.
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 1143
Importance of height
Posted: 8/16/2016 12:16:53 PM

I never approach people when I'm unconscious.

I consciously know what I'm doing whenever I approach someone.

I talk directly to whoever it is that I found attractive, and include others who might be there in the conversation if they are interested in joining in, but my main focus remains on the one I found attractive and wanted to talk to in the first place.

I'm logical that way.


What makes it logical? It seems to be the opposite of what naturals do.
Also, it highly depends on the situation and depends if the person you're talking to is someone used to getting non stop attention or not.


It's obvious why it's logical.

I'm talking to the person I want to talk to.

Which is why I'm talking to them in the first place.

I don't need to have Susie pass a note to Sally when I can pass the note to Sally myself.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 1144
view profile
History
women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/16/2016 12:31:16 PM

If he's *Supposed* to pay -- not "it'd be nice if he did" -- then (a) Obviously there can only be so much appreciation for him doing something he's damn well supposed to be doing, and (b) Why in the hell are you Faking an offer?


I think you hit the nail on the head. There's a level of confusion that exists right now due to women wanting things both ways. You can go up to a feminist and she will say the man should pay for the date while holding a sign that says "equality!" Men paying came from older times when women didn't have careers, or even the ability to vote. I don't think men are angry about it, they're just confused. Women expect men to follow social conduct from the past that benefits them while demanding to be treated like there's no difference between men and women in other ways. I don't want to turn this into another "who pays" thread either, but it's just an example of why men are confused about how to behave sometimes. The women aren't even sure how they want the men to behave. Women will also say "I want a man to be polite and compliment me." when that doesn't work. Sometimes it works with women that don't get a lot of male attention, but a guy really has to stand out if he wants to make an impression to a woman that gets a lot of male attention. He can't just be guy #10 that says: "You look nice, let me buy you a drink." That's so common for her, it's like a handshake. There's nothing that makes him attractive to her.


It's obvious why it's logical.

I'm talking to the person I want to talk to.

Which is why I'm talking to them in the first place.

I don't need to have Susie pass a note to Sally when I can pass the note to Sally myself.


It's not obvious why it's logical though. People are usually with their social circle when they're out in public. If you're talking about stopping a woman on the street and having a conversation, that's different. Or if you introduce yourself to a group and "Sally' says she likes science fiction so you talk to her about science fiction, that's a different story. We're talking about attraction though. If the woman you like is with her group and you only talk to her and ignore her friends, the chances of her liking you back diminish for reasons I've already mentioned. She's used to being the center of attention and getting the most male attraction. You're not standing out by doing that, and you're not making a good impression on her group which is important to her.
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 1145
women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/16/2016 12:33:10 PM
LOL thread change
Personally I think NG and Jane should meet RT> Prolly get married in a fever.. I can be a bridesmaid.
I'm the right height
 FullMoonGuy
Joined: 3/7/2014
Msg: 1146
women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/16/2016 1:57:44 PM

We're talking about attraction though. If the woman you like is with her group and you only talk to her and ignore her friends, the chances of her liking you back diminish for reasons I've already mentioned. She's used to being the center of attention


I'm rarely interested in the people who are the center of attention all the time, so the chances of that being a problem are minimal.
 Ladyinred0407
Joined: 2/6/2016
Msg: 1147
women notice the guy with a long post
Posted: 8/16/2016 2:18:48 PM
I hear ya Ouija, I thought this a month ago, ....................Huh? Oh yah, That you would would make a great bridesmaid, LOL
Easy peasey!

Just in case anyone wanted to know.

27 h (1,761 miles)
via I-94 W
26 h without traffic
This route has tolls.
This route crosses a country border.

Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA to Calgary, Alberta, Canada. just a hop, skip, and jump!

( Someone has a very smart dog, LOL)
 LJane_6
Joined: 6/10/2015
Msg: 1148
view profile
History
Importance of height
Posted: 8/23/2016 2:21:10 AM
^^LOL...look at that, someone took the thread back to where it's supposed to be. And...*crickets*


I'm talking to the person I want to talk to.

Which is why I'm talking to them in the first place.


Seems pretty logical to me. I'm sure the guy isn't talking about ignoring everyone else in the group and blatantly hitting on one person. Just making the person he likes the main focus of his attention. I see nothing wring with that, as long as he's not being rude to the others. Whether it works better than the other "strategy" is hard to say. It depends on the girl, I guess. The last guy I was really into was mingling with the group initially, but did not ignore me and very soon made it clear he was interested in me. I liked his straightforward approach, but I also found him super attractive, which obviously helps. If he had ignored me and initially talked to my friend, I guarantee I would have been less interested, not more. I would have thought I was his second choice. But then, I'm also not the "hot one" of the group, and never have been, so I can't say how that girl would feel.


Only offer to pay some when you believe you Are obligated to some degree *or* when you Want to. It is Not polite to do so when you are Not obligated to and you don't want to.


So, if I would actually rather the guy pay, you and others seem to think it’s better if I don’t offer, but instead just sit there and wait for him to pay. Would that be considered more polite? BTW, when I do offer, I usually just say, “can I chip in?” I never offer to get the whole bill or anything like that. And rarely do guys take me up on it. Like I said, I’ve had 2 guys ask to go dutch (and that was before I said anything), and I’ve never had one ask me to get the tip or anything like that. But yeah, I’d be ok with it if they did.


75/25-ish in the end.


That is about how I prefer it as well (overall), but still strongly prefer the guy getting the first one.


FYI: Don't go for buying him the 2nd date, as that means as you implied, "Oh, I just like the 1st date paid by the guy," and with a "and we more or less trade off afterwards, as I'm paying pretty much the whole *2nd* date."


I really only insist on paying for the whole second date if I’m not that into the guy.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 1149
view profile
History
Importance of height
Posted: 8/27/2016 10:51:27 AM

So, if I would actually rather the guy pay, you and others seem to think it’s better if I don’t offer, but instead just sit there and wait for him to pay. Would that be considered more polite? BTW, when I do offer, I usually just say, “can I chip in?” I never offer to get the whole bill or anything like that. And rarely do guys take me up on it. Like I said, I’ve had 2 guys ask to go dutch (and that was before I said anything), and I’ve never had one ask me to get the tip or anything like that. But yeah, I’d be ok with it if they did.


Just go dutch if you have a job, then you won't have to worry about all this crap and you can focus on the person instead of worrying about dollars and cents.
 Ladyinred0407
Joined: 2/6/2016
Msg: 1150
Importance of height
Posted: 8/27/2016 12:17:48 PM
LMAO, I do have a job, I have never "Just go dutch....." ( Maybe mixed with German, perhaps mixed with English, French even, I'm not sure about the "Just" part") but then I have NEVER EVER worried about it. And believe me, we were very focused! We saw eye to eye! ..............................Oh wait a sec. Perhaps that was because he was, not too tall. I don't remember. We were horizontal!
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