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Show ALL Forums  > Dating and Love Advice  > Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up      Home login  
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 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 51
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn upPage 3 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

Yet, I've lost interest in them far too often if we had sex very quickly...

.... but if you wait too long, the other party will lose interest -- girl or guy. Especially if it's the guy holding out 'too long' (which is elastic due to subjectivity involved). When one does wait longer-than-the-norm, I would hope things have at least progressed around the bases at least. Otherwise, sexual frustration will set in much quicker.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 52
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/9/2016 4:50:36 PM
ebolakitty- There will be no "beating" (the fact that you chose to use THAT word is very telling) that anyone else will endure.
I slapped you down and I'm content with that.
My father is a wonderful man. He is kind, honest, tells me like it is even if I don't like it and I respect the heck out of him because he IS a man, not a little boy in a man's suit that has to put down women because it makes his petty, small heart feel better.
If you thought any thing you might say is going to give me pause or tell me off..........oh well, better luck next time. :D
(btw- I knew this identity was a sock puppet. I know who you used to be. I can't remember the screen name any more, but I remember your posts, talking about women and relationships and then turning around and saying you are asexual. I found you Hilarious, but not in a good way)
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 53
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/9/2016 5:48:51 PM

If I am ever up Vancouver way, I'd be delighted.


Okay, but I'm not putting out for fast food :|
 ebolakitty
Joined: 3/19/2016
Msg: 54
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/9/2016 7:07:18 PM

I slapped you down and I'm content with that.


My word! What a scathing rebuke. That sure showed me didn't it?


My father is a wonderful man. He is kind, honest, tells me like it is even if I don't like it and I respect the heck out of him because he IS a man, not a little boy in a man's suit that has to put down women because it makes his petty, small heart feel better.


He sounds like a real hard working, stand up guy, real salt of the Earth -- IOW a low grade moron who worked his butt off to help pay my father, a government bureaucrat who came in hungover at 10 am and took four hour lunches. I don't have any real animosity toward those guys. After all, his kind makes my life possible. Still, he is what he is... a reliable gear in the machine... nothing more.


I knew this identity was a sock puppet. I know who you used to be. I can't remember the screen name any more


Then you must not have looked at my profile. My old username is the headline.

Now, back to the issue at hand: You may think that swearing not to beat anyone is praiseworthy (personally, I would never do that.) but how does that help the OP get a better price for her shop-worn vag?
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 55
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/9/2016 7:38:59 PM
Okay, I was bluffing!

I suck at negotiations.
 ebolakitty
Joined: 3/19/2016
Msg: 56
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/9/2016 8:14:58 PM

Okay, I was bluffing!

I suck at negotiations.


Charming admission. Makes me want to go all out. Don't worry about McDonald’s. I am willing to splurge on Swiss Chalet.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 57
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/10/2016 10:10:58 AM
I don't think the guy set out to hurt you, but the situation sucks regardless. Chances are it would not have progressed after the 4-5 date whether you had sex or not.
Your only take away should be that the sex was good but the guy not so much. Going forward you can make it a personal policy to take sex off the table for a much longer period of time if that makes you feel better, but if you do change your mind in the heat of a moment don't beat yourself up. You're an adult, and sex is fun.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 58
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/10/2016 8:32:51 PM
I am with maleman999 on this. Having sex after a few dates does not a commitment make. The guy was not feeling it was a long term thing for whatever reasons. Who would know? That he said he was happy to be FWB, he was being honest, and at least you know where you stand.

As for holding out for a certain number of dates in order not to feel used, cheap or a pushover, who would know what that number is? Each connection has its own dynamics and there are no guarantees it will progress, whatever you do. All in life is timing.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 59
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/11/2016 12:39:00 AM

As for holding out for a certain number of dates in order not to feel used, cheap or a pushover, who would know what that number is? Each connection has its own dynamics and there are no guarantees it will progress, whatever you do. All in life is timing.

What I've always found interesting is when I've talked with some girls that I've known who had the same complaints as OP about guys too many times, going thru kinda what the OP has (but not taken quite as dramatically) -- I'd sometimes hear the newsfeed of their dates & interactions with guys. And sometimes I'd say "Oh, wait, what about that [Bob] guy you went out on some dates with before?"... and they'd explain how he's kind of a cool guy but he wasn't her type, too clingly, etc etc... and I'd ask if they hooked up, and what gets me is when there's a (many times reluctant) Yes, I say "Well, wait. What's the difference between [Bob] and that guy [Jim] who You really liked, hooked up with early on, but he wasn't that interested down the line? Weren't you just like that guy [Jim], to that [Bob] who blew off?"

Usually I'd be told things kind of irrelevant, along with how she wasn't using him, and well, guys can deal with it -- "he should be happy he got some, his pestering worked, congrats to him." POVs always fascinate me. :)

Kind of like when people say "All guys are d!cks" and "All girls are b!tches"... but then you ask about Sally or Bob who's nice, and they go "Yeah, but, they're not attractive / I'm not into them."
 Unfinished_Chapter
Joined: 5/4/2016
Msg: 60
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/11/2016 4:08:55 AM

" POVs always fascinate me. :)


Shocked, incredulous, accepting, dumbfounded and apathetic come to mind long before fascinating.

What's fascinating as well as mind numbing are 46 pages and 1200 posts regarding "who pays". You would think the world economy hung in the balance with that coffee...drink...appetizer. ..meal etc.

Looks like the "dutch or bust brigade" has spawned the "I don't need a man to care for me" opposition forces as discussed in OT. :/
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 61
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/11/2016 5:33:17 AM
^^^^^^ lol
I guess for many it is a matter of principle, but you can't eat principles. :p
The women I asked re who should pay looked at me like I had 3 heads - they were more concerned about was the date a
good Man, etc.
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 62
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/11/2016 2:25:29 PM

What's fascinating as well as mind numbing are 46 pages and 1200 posts regarding "who pays". You would think the world economy hung in the balance with that coffee...drink...appetizer. ..meal etc.

Yeah, but it's not about A meal or A drink... but the Entitlement issue, when one goes out on dates with gals who expect it with a decent guy out of Principal (as noted above) when they aren't jobless by any means. It's the issue itself -- why does this exist So much, where it's more or less Entitled for a 'par' date (for a majority)? Forums are a place to talk about it -- not to a date of course, to risk chaos.

What I find fascinating about the other thing is a bit like that -- where the world revolves around oneself in the dating market to a huge extent, and it's encouraged. The "All guys/girls are a-holes" one may think, mulling over about their dates or short-term experiences falling thru, but when you point Many others who they themselves walk all over or walk by, they don't "count that" (because they're not interested in them).

Both see the world with Titled Expectations in their favor. :) One has the validation of society to a good extent as being OK (guy paying for any girl's tabs on dates at least leading up to 1st handful with same one, even if not asking to Take them out).
 JJBean21
Joined: 8/12/2015
Msg: 63
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/13/2016 6:58:49 PM

This advice is very likely to backfire on the OP. Most men her age don't find secretive and paranoid endearing. Stalling them will only make them angry at her. They think that there is something very wrong with a woman her age that plays peek-a-boo with her pvssy. Some guys may go along just long enough to teach her a lesson. Best outcome for the OP would be every guy saying, "so I'm not good enough for you. Adios head-case." Things might be different if she were open and frank. If she was as candid in her profile as she was in the opening post, I wouldn't be saying this. Unfortunately, men will be reading (or not reading) her profile and not her forum posts.


Ebola, my love, why are you the authority on most men? What would you know about men? Anyhoo...you state--- men don't find secretive and paranoid endearing? Are you fricking kidding me? Stalling them will make them angry and playing peek a boo with her vajeana? You need to be clued in about ADULT relationships. If a guy "just wants sex" so be it. Yippie hi-ho mother-fvker. If she wants that...fine. Everybody has the right to want what they want without being manipulated or manipulative. But when one is in their 40's??? Come on...

The best outcome for the OP would be guys calling her a head case because they weren't good enough for her? And this is because she's not jumping into sex immediately? You're the head case in this case. God, grow up already.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 64
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/13/2016 10:01:10 PM

He said he could easily continue to have sex with me but "knows" it wouldn't work long-term so we'd only end up breaking up 6 months from now anyway. When I asked him how he can possibly know that it wouldn't work when he barely knows me, and we've had a good time together so far, he said it's just a "feeling" of a lack of connection. But WTF, doesn't he realize "connection" is something that deepens with time?


He's not that into you. Sorry. It won't deepen over time because it's not there right now. You should be glad that he left quickly instead of stringing you along for months. You're free to move on, so do it.
 jessebunnies
Joined: 2/18/2013
Msg: 65
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 7:22:19 AM
here's my response to your post in ask a guy which got filled up while I was typing


Also wondering what to say to future men I date who ask me about my sexual history. I don't want to scare a guy off just because I abstained for a number of years.


Who cares if you scare them off? If you scare them off then you don't want to be with them any way. They were looking for a prostitute not a wife! Just be honest. Personally I put all my baggage, history whatever on the table pretty early on. I do it on purpose. I want to see that this person accepts me, ALL OF ME, including some not so nice parts of me early on before I've wasted years on a person who can't accept me for who I am. There are times when I go long periods without sex and I'm honest about it because in the end I really don't give a fruck about what this guy or that guy thinks of me. My future hubby will love me regardless of whether I'm a Madonna or a whore or both.

It's normal for people to ask about your relationship and sexual history. Don't you want to know too? It tells a story about who that person was and is. And of course for safety reasons while engaging in sexual practices should be obvious.

This guy didn't run away because he sensed you were a born again virgin! He likely ran away because 1) having a partner who refuses to openly address such a simple thing as their past including sexual history is a HUGE red flag. Who wants a partner that can't communicate? 2) your refusal to state when you last had sex could've led him to thoughts that you just had sex with someone that morning or the day before 3) While you thought the sex was great (I imagine that not having sex for 6 years then having sex would make it seem like anything was nothing short of sexual divine) he might not have felt the same way. Maybe sex was awkward and uncomfortable for him because you were caught up in the "what if he doesn't like me because of my past" moment. 4) or he just wanted to get freaky and he fulfilled his need.

The bigger issue here isn't about this man or the sex it's about you. It's about that you aren't confident in who you are as a person. You should be able to walk into a room with an attractive man, throw your past, present and future on the table, say "this is who I am! Now where are we going to dinner?" without a second thought to how it might make you look! The dating world will eat you alive if you don't fix this.
 sapphiresparks
Joined: 5/10/2016
Msg: 66
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 7:43:54 AM
I think is normal for people to ask about your relationship history and I think that should be a response like - I was married once and we divorced after 12 years and then I lived with someone for 8 years. That's it. They don't need to know your sexual history and how many men/women you dated or had sex with. The OP is 44 and chances are, she has a history. We all do. I have yet to ask or be asked my sexual history, that's not a question an adult would/should ask. If I have a recent note from my Dr. saying I'm disease free, that's all a potential life mate needs to know. Plus the fact that I'm single, divorced, widowed ...truly available.

I think the fellow the OP met just wasn't into her and having sex on the 4 th date had nothing to do with it. What the person above said to the OP is bang on "The bigger issue here isn't about this man or the sex, it's about you. It's about that you aren't confident in who you are as a person."
 jessebunnies
Joined: 2/18/2013
Msg: 67
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 9:43:41 AM

I should mention that we discussed in detail that we are both on the same page in terms of what we're looking for - we both are looking for a long-term relationship, not a one-night stand or just a sexual thing. We've both had long-term relationships before and he said he really misses that in his life.

I don't hold much in the answer to this question when I ask guys. Yes, it can weed out the guys whose timing in life at the moment is all about how many girls he can run through sexually but just because you have the same goals does not necessarily mean they'll be met together (you and he). So just be careful here to not take to much value here in the answers.


I have NEVER had sex with ANYONE so quickly in my entire life, but I was so turned on and trusted that this was simply our relationship progressing to the next level. I mean he said he's looking for a girlfriend, not meaningless sex, so to me this indicated he was into me and ready to start a sex life with me

The sooner you understand that men can have sex with no or little to no emotional attachment the better off you'll be. Men and woman think differently when it comes to sex.
Again he may be looking for a girlfriend but it may not be with you. Just because someone says they want the same things doesn't mean that your that person that he wants as a girlfriend. Make sense! This is why asking the "what are you looking for question" can be misleading. People also change their minds too! Players eventually settle down to find the one and people seeking relationships change their minds and become players. Words are never a guarantee.


But the sex was really good, especially considering it was our FIRST time together - he couldn't stop ranting and raving about how much he loves my body.

I've had guys who are caught up in the moment tell me they want me to have their babies, be with me forever, call them daddy, tell me I'm the best thing since the invention of Chips Ahoy. They say all kinds of sh!t when really they're just caught up in a momentary high. Doesn't mean after the orgasm wears off that they really want to have 10 kids with me or rush to the alter to spend the rest of their life with me. Guys say all kinds of crap during and immediately after sex. Look for what happens after sex is what will tell you whats really going on.


I am really torn up about this because I was just starting to really like him and trust him and after we had sex, being a typical chick I felt even more affection for him. I feel like he's just slammed the door on a wonderful opportunity. I know I would be a great girlfriend to him and don't understand why he's not even willing to give it a chance. I feel like I must have done something (or lacked something) that was a turn-off to him.

Because sometimes you just know it isn't going to work. This is your 4th date you pretty much know whether it stands a good chance for improvement in the future or not. That being said there are two important components to relationships 1) physical 2) emotional. The first one woman usually disregard as important and the second one men tend to disregard as important (but that's another subject). You have to have BOTH to have a healthy relationship. When one of these lacks it just won't happen no matter how much time is given. I've had men whom I've had an amazing emotional connection with but the minute we had sex or in some cases attempted to have sex I realized we lacked the physical connection and it just wasn't going to work out. Perhaps this guy realized this mid stream (no pun intended).


Then he said he wanted to stay "friends" and added me as a friend on FB.

I would not add him on FB. I would never give that man the satisfaction of being able to see my face or what I was doing with my life everyday after he told me I was only good enough for a fruck buddy. Let me serve you up a healthy dose of self esteem and unfriend him right now.


Anyone else ever had this happen for no apparent reason?

Yeah I was in an 8 year relationship which the last 3 years of it was sexless due to his depression. Coming out of that type of situation and length of time my self esteem was pretty low. I'd just spent 8 yrs devoting myself to someone else. So one of the first guys I dated took advantage of that and we were on and off again for over a year (because he didn't know what he wanted. basically I was a FWB) till I finally worked on myself. Do I blame him for doing this? No because here's the truth, If you don't find value in yourself no one else will either! You will continue to be the FWB, the girl that gets pumped and dumped, the girl that has a lot of first dates but not many second ones and a whole other host of problems till you recognize your value and drop kick people who don't.


Do you expect to be head-over-heels in love by date 4? And if you're not, or you see any flaws, you just won't see the person anymore? I thought most adults realize that chemistry and love grows with time and only gets better after the first few dates.

Ok well this isn't black and white question. In online dating your going to find "the grass is greener on the other side types", generally mentally unstable circus clowns, people looking to kill the boredom that plagues their lives, 4 year old men trapped into a 40 something year old mans body and normal people who are genuine and looking for a partner. This is your mission to find out in the first few dates (or even before dating if possible) which category your guys fit into. Recognizing that not everything is kitties and rainbows (IE they're all adults who watch the Notebook and understand that love develops) is half the battle!


And would you sleep with a woman you weren't feeling a "connection" with if you were looking for a long-term relationship?

Yes a vast majority of men will. It goes back to what I said earlier about the views of sex between men and woman.

On that note don't get hung up on "I had sex to soon" or I should wait 90 days before having sex with a guy. There is no such thing as having sex to soon only having sex you regret is to soon. I had sex with a guy I met that same day and we ended up in a relationship and I loved him more than I have any man in my life. Go ahead wait 90 days to have sex and watch him walk out on the 91st day because you played a game and made him wait. It's not about when you have sex, it's about why you have sex. ;)

Don't tie a connection or a relationship to sex. Have sex when you want to start having sex because you like the person, because it feels good, because it's what you want. When I let go of tying sex to a relationship it didn't really matter anymore whether the guy stayed or left afterward because I wasn't controlling the outcome of it. I was doing what I wanted to do.

If your attracted to him and you want to have sex then put on some Marvin Gaye "let's get it on" and go to town. Wtf? is stopping you? Some out dated antiquated notion that good girls wait for marriage. Please....... Live the life you feel best fit for you and you'll be a lot happier.
 ThroatLozenge
Joined: 3/2/2016
Msg: 68
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 9:49:46 AM
Another expert on men and sex.

Oy vey...

vvvvv

I'm not even gonna try to be an expert on women. My picker is beyond repair!



Men of all ages prefer sex not be a transaction. Older men often acquire enough self restraint to refuse the transactions. Not always but often enough. Some men, myself included, take a dim view of any strings at all. Any price tag attached to her twat, no matter how small, is infuriating and ends any potential relationship then and there. Women don't value the experience. They value the profit. Sex for relationship = no deal. Peddle your ass somewhere else.


I don't mind investing in romance and hopefully a monogamous relationship after sex.

Yes, men want to be valued for more then their wallets and women their boobs, but it's funny both genders market that schtick.

Now, when the endless courtship phenomenon shows up? Time to lay down the law.

Women will always be an enigma to me. And please, some women don't want a commitment. I actually respect the women that honestly say they want to date but nothing serious, or casual. I know they'll be ok going...DUTCH!

Unfortunately, the OP has just learned dating rule 108. Sex doesn't always equal a relationship.

 jessebunnies
Joined: 2/18/2013
Msg: 69
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 10:01:44 AM
^^^ and your contribution to this discussion is?
Taking up space?

(((hugs))) Clooney :) and if you can't be the expert then the rest of us will have to!
 Whisky_River
Joined: 12/2/2015
Msg: 70
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 10:09:35 AM

Oy vey

^^^Wonder if he's still around?

I'd say it's part of experience on the give and take, on what matters to build a relationship and keep it alive and going.
And a $hit load of Luck!
ymmv
 ThroatLozenge
Joined: 3/2/2016
Msg: 71
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 10:30:23 AM
^^^^
Yep.

Keeping it alive is a daunting task.

I do envy the folks that are having fun on their dating odysseys.

The endings are never fun.

I haven't met 600 women yet. I can't imagine not being insane by the time I reach that number.

I'm already getting emails from locals stating this can't possibly work since we've been on the site foreva.

Yet, there she is too...

Hahahahahahaa
 norwegianguy456
Joined: 6/11/2015
Msg: 72
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 12:24:10 PM

If you scare them off then you don't want to be with them any way. They were looking for a prostitute not a wife!

I think that's jumping to conclusions pretty quickly, though. Because a girl wants to know my sexual history on a 1st/2nd date doesn't mean she's looking for a male prostitute. Boy do I wish that was the case! ;) And it doesn't nix her looking for a husband, although that'd be creepy in that time frame.

Personally I put all my baggage, history whatever on the table pretty early on. I do it on purpose. I want to see that this person accepts me, ALL OF ME, including some not so nice parts of me early on before I've wasted years on a person who can't accept me for who I am.

To an extent I agree that that is a good idea. However, it's not a good idea on certain things too super-early ("Hi Jesse... nice to finally meet ya... boy do I got a story for you...!"). People are going to be in a different gear of judgment about some things in the beginning... which can make a difference in how they take things. Not that you go out of your way to Hide things (although technically that could be a good idea with a very few things in some instances) -- but the other person is going to judge things differently if baggage is thrown on the table as soon as ya walk in VS unraveled in proper timing. Again, most people are in different gears of judging and how they absorb things at different timelines. Even a meant-to-be-match. Can make a difference.

It's normal for people to ask about your relationship and sexual history. Don't you want to know too?

To hear some hot stories?? I wouldn't expect her to tell me that right after meeting for a short period of time. If something has an impact on *actual* Compatibility, yes. What I mean by actual is whether it should or not. Is a gal who's in love going to dump her BF of 6-12 months when she finds out he slept with a lot of women in college? Most likely not. Is a gal going to be disinterested if he crams all that on a 1st date? Much more likely. Many times you'll hear a gf/wife saying to a bf/husband, "Yeah, and if you would have told me that THEN, oh, there's no way there would have been a 2nd date... (chuckle)..."

There are things that are going to turn someone off that doesn't make that person who they really are -- but it will be judged that way.

He likely ran away because 1) having a partner who refuses to openly address such a simple thing as their past including sexual history is a HUGE red flag.

I strongly disagree. It's not necessarily so simple, and it's not their business to know way early on. You're not seeing each other on a 1st or 2nd date. When opening the menu at the place 5 minutes after meeting, for most women (maybe not you), they're going to be turned off if he says, "So [Sally]... do you like anal? Have you ever had it? .... You're not answering? Well, HUGE red flag, sister!" :)

Obviously things of this nature can have more tact, but when talking about sexual escapades, which is IMO none of their business, the concept itself can be tactless to them. And those who want to know on the first dates about their sexual encounters is a turn off for many, and understandably so. IMO, if there's a Clear make-or-break thing for *actual* compatibility, yeah, they should bring it up.... like "I don't have sex until I've been dating for a year or have a ring on my finger."
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 73
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 12:50:14 PM

He either couldn't or wouldn't give me a specific answer as to why he wanted to end it other than he's not "feeling an emotional" connection with me.


OP: If you went on a few dates with a guy and wasn't feeling a connection, and told him you weren't feeling an emotional connection and decided to end it, would you consider that dumping him? If you wouldn't consider that dumping a guy, then how could you justify saying you were dumped when he gave you a reason why he didn't want to continue dating after a few dates? Were you trying to demand a detailed explanation so you could argue it and try to convince him his decision was wrong?

Don't use the excuse that you want to know all of the specifics about what's going on in his head, so that it will help you out on future dates with other guys. How you handle future dates with other guys is not his responsibility. Stop being a child about it.
 FlamingHotCheetos3
Joined: 5/6/2016
Msg: 74
Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 2:37:10 PM
This one is tough OP. Someone could have easily dumped you after having sex on the first or tenth date. If you hold sex is such high regard and don't want to be hurt emotionally, maybe it'd be best for you to abstain until commitment.
 LetitiaLeGrande
Joined: 3/22/2015
Msg: 75
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Dumped after having sex on 4th date - am completely torn up
Posted: 5/14/2016 7:44:16 PM
I am with you mchurch

People tend to pick the same person over and over but just in different guise and have to deal with the same old issues, until they wake up and deal with it. Then they have a chance to move on to healthier happier relationships.

The girl who wanted the guy back because no one more exciting or attractive has come along, deserves to be avoided. The guy does not want to be settled for and has lost interest I would say.


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