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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this w      Home login  
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 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 26
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this weekPage 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Orione,maybe we should try and deal with all the Italian war crimes in Ethiopia first?
 Orione7
Joined: 12/22/2014
Msg: 27
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 3:00:48 PM
Yeah the Ethiopians broke the conventions of war first - by using expanding or Dum dum bullets.
Ah the mad scramble for Africa... lets put the Belgians in the dock then for the Congo, French for their colonies.
Brits.
America for inventing a fake war to steal the Philippines, then another one to subdue its population.... over sugar lol
Everyone always singles out the Italians..... why don't you deal with the Croatians.... the massive Jasenovac concentration camp.

Murica joined the wrong side as Patton said.... communism could have been wiped out. oh well.

Why don't you canucks start by declaring a republic and telling the English that enough Canadians have been used as cannon fodder in their wars in Europe....?
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 28
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 3:38:51 PM

They are following orders. Just like every grunt soldier does.



At the post-war Nuremberg trials the Waffen-SS was condemned as a criminal organisation due to its connection to the Nazi Party and involvement in numerous war crimes. Waffen-SS veterans were denied many of the rights afforded to veterans who had served in the Heer (army), Luftwaffe (air force) or Kriegsmarine (navy). An exception was made for Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943, who were exempted because of their involuntary servitude.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS

No, they were not. They were doing exactly what they signed up to do.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 29
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 4:08:19 PM

They are following orders. Just like every grunt soldier does. . . .

No, they were not. They were doing exactly what they signed up to do


Yea, it takes a certain type of person . . .basically a non-human monster, who can as part of their job knowingly kill thousands of babies, children, women and men, day after day after day . . . . but according to Dee . . . they are following orders just like every grunt soldier does . . . because grunt soldiers routinely sign up for jobs where they can kill the innocent and the helpless when somebody orders them to do so. Its just another day at the office.

I think it is pretty evident there is something seriously wrong with this poster, which is pretty much why I ignore her, but I had to see who you were talking about when you mentioned her words. I guessed right. . She has a lot more in common with Orion than with Americans.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 30
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 4:35:33 PM
I seldom agree with Dee, but I have to come to her defence here.

If we view the people who committed these crimes as some other evil, we aren't learning anything from the Holocaust. These were not inherently evil men who did this. They were just like you and me. That's where Hannah Arendt and the Banality of Evil come in.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 31
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 5:33:44 PM
I agree in general...but the people who worked the camps voluntarily were a breed apart. I don't believe 95% of humanity could do that job. The remainder are psychopaths. Still germany proved how far any civilized society can descend under the right conditions.
 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 32
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 5:39:10 PM
They ended up there in various ways.Some battalions were formed of those with a history of disciplinary actions taken against them.So your hunter battalion advances on a little hamlet in the Balkans.One flank flushes out some men and they run in your direction.You are ordered to shoot and some soldiers begin shooting and you witness this.Or people are rounded up and executed and you witness this.Your superior observes that you are uncomfortable with these actions.Other soldiers begin to notice.Accidents can happen in many ways.Training accidents were a common method to get rid of an unwanted superior for instance

Yes camps are different Raise Hill.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 33
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 7:05:20 PM
Half-time, I agree with Hannah, and with you. In general. I think the possibility of an "innocent" SS follower. belonger, inductee, was otherwise. I think Hitler was pretty clear about what he was doing with the SS. Clear enough that my father and mother in 1936 in Salt Lake City could see the arc. And married earlier than they might have to get a few years of normal in before the war. I gave my father over to the fight before I was six months old.

Nothing that was still human could have presided over those camps.

I remember the villagers from around Auschwitz claiming that they had no idea. I worked at a hospital that burned its medical waste. On the days they burned body parts, you knew. Smells like nothing else on God's green earth. That is banality.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 34
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 9:49:49 PM
I too agree that the lesson of the Holocaust should be, how easy it is to do these things. Abu Garaib trials went after the low level soldiers. Soldiers who might be suffering PTSD, sleep depravation, a lack of clear ROE, taught in boot camp to dehumanize the enemy or signed up with underlying mental issues, might listen to orders in the hope someone up the food chain knows WTF. There's Vietnam movies about following orders in an unconventional guerilla war, thinking the brutal officer is the one who will get you out alive, if not mentally whole.

the camps, patterned originally on the Gulag, worked the Jews to death, like some form of slavery. the Final Solution came later.
 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 35
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/19/2016 10:10:17 PM
There was an interview with a survivor in a Toronto paper (globe and mail?)about 1985,he said something I have never been able to substantiate.He said they got one egg a day and a little white pill.He said the people that took the pill lived longer.Had to be something to promote nitrogen retention.

My guess is it was an anabolic.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 36
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 5:11:02 AM
Ever wonder why there are so many blonde upper class Argentinians? Because the world turned a blind eye to the Nazi officers and official as members who fled there (and a few to Brazil)

But, yeah, let's crucify the low level people because it makes people have closure and feel better.

There was a situation where a building collapsed while under construction. Several people died.

Instead of charging the owners and engineers, construction contractor and city officials for the alleged corruption involved in pressuring and alleged bribes for a permit, that should not have been issued, and doing it under unsafe conditions or the owner of the place next door that refused to close (where some of the people died)they charged and tried the bulldozer operator, who was doing his job as told.

Well, given the comments here, I guess that is just how the world works and many people like it like that. HS.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 37
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 6:53:24 AM
Not much into personal responsibility are you dee? Let's see if you can prove to me you are far smarter than I give you credit for. If we assume everybody claims they were following orders, where do you draw the line? Is a bulldozer operator responsible for failing to follow safety procedures? Is a drunk driver responsible for driving drunk when ordered to go to an office party where he drank? Is a person who participates in a robbery guilty of felony murder if he was not carrying a gun but it was his partner who shot somebody? Are all those who participate in a conspiracy guilty if the conspiracy is in violation of law?
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 38
view profile
History
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 7:33:46 AM
I used to work in a factory that made mechanisms for autos, all along the line from making the parts to assembling them, were check points and safety checks. The steel came in from outside, otherwise we made the parts from scratch. I was that annoying employee who took my quality & safety checks seriously, and slowed down production when the standards weren't met. I'm not talking about making a bad yo-yo and letting it pass, I'm talking about making auto parts that involve things like if your seat belt is going to be anchored to the floor properly, or if your seat is going to properly be installed so that it doesn't fly out the windshield in a crash. These quality & safety checks involved life or death, and yet many people just let it go, after all if you slowed down the line some bigwig was going to be on your ass about it. You had to stand your ground while someone who could fire you on the spot, yelled at you and threatened you.

My point, it was my job to do the checks properly and to shut down a line or toss a load of parts if they were not up to acceptable standards. You either do that, all the way from the beginning to the end of the product making, or you are responsible for potentially harming or killing those who buy the whole product at the end of the assembly and do not have the knowledge or way of knowing if the products are properly made or installed. I could not let it go because I couldn't live with the thought that I might be the reason some horrible tragedy happened to innocent people because I didn't do my job. It's the job of the supervisors to get and keep things rolling, but it's the job of each individual doing those jobs to make sure they are making a quality, safe product. I was just doing what I was told is a bullshit excuse of someone not doing their job.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 39
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 7:50:40 AM
Yes..people die through the negligence of corporate America all the time. That is why it was great to see the ceo of Massey criminally charged and convicted for lack of safety that killed many of his coal miners. Too often the scum at the top blames subordinates, escapes liability and turns it over to insurance companies.

The current governor of florida, Rick Scott...founded a company that stole close to two billion from medicare. When deposed, he took the fifth 75 times. He was never personally charged with a crime because...although he was the ceo, he had no idea about the fraud in his own company. His punishment? Elected Florida's governor. What a country.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 40
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 9:18:40 AM

I was just doing what I was told is a bullshit excuse of someone not doing their job.


There's a big difference between you refusing to do what you were told to do on a job and a Nazi soldier refusing to follow orders in a war. Your worst punishment would to be get fired. I don't know what the punishment was for a Nazi soldier who sympathized with the Jews and refused to follow orders, but I'm sure it was lot more severe (probably death).

The main purpose of the Nazis invading nation after nation in Europe was to round up all of the Jews and send them to concentration camps. So Nazi soldiers went from town to town, rounding up any Jews they could find, and had them herded off to concentration camps. Aren't they just as responsible for sending Jews to their death as the ones who were stationed at the concentration camps? In fact, in a way, they are more responsible because in order to get the Jews, they had to battle armies from other countries, killing millions of non-Jews along the way. Why aren't the ones who rounded up the Jews in other countries and had then sent off to their death being sought after as vigorously?
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 41
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 9:31:49 AM

I don't know what the punishment was for a Nazi soldier who sympathized with the Jews and refused to follow orders, but I'm sure it was lot more severe (probably death).


They would not have been working at a death camp.


he main purpose of the Nazis invading nation after nation in Europe was to round up all of the Jews and send them to concentration camps.


Really, Hitler's penchant for "lebensraum" and his pathological personality to rule the world had nothing to do with it?


So Nazi soldiers went from town to town, rounding up any Jews they could find, and had them herded off to concentration camps. Aren't they just as responsible for sending Jews to their death as the ones who were stationed at the concentration camps?


Not as directly responsible, and then you get to the issue of what they knew or did not know. But the guards at the camp knew exactly what they were doing. Still . . .yea . . . they all should have paid the price, and many of them did with their lives . . . supporting a criminal enterprise.

Regardless, if you read the history of the time... decisions had to be made who to go after . . . the leaders were obvious choices, as were the people who ran the camps and directly engaged in the murder. As for the foot soldiers . . . far more problematic.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 42
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History
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 11:46:17 AM
Yes, I think the ones rounding up the Jews (and others that Hitler wanted tortured & killed, he didn't just go for the Jews) are as guilty. Personally I would rather be killed than to carry out the wants of a mad man just to keep living.
 Butterchickenchuck
Joined: 9/18/2015
Msg: 43
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 11:58:26 AM
"Personally I would rather be killed than to carry out the wants of a mad man just to keep living."




You may make a different choice with a gun pointed at your head


Just sayin
 UtterAmazement
Joined: 5/15/2016
Msg: 44
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 12:22:56 PM

You may make a different choice with a gun pointed at your head



Exactly. I'd have to bet during that period that if you failed to carry out a direct order there wouldn't be a court martial...rather walk over to you and put a 9mm parabellum from a Luger in the temple.
 matyko
Joined: 5/10/2016
Msg: 45
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 12:46:22 PM

Personally I would rather be killed than to carry out the wants of a mad man just to keep living.



Lol. Might see a little of that happen IF the new Hitler named The Donald is elected.
 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 46
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 1:42:18 PM
^^^^
The Drama.

Easy to say.First instinct is to survive.

You might not get shot for disobeying but you could get sent to the Eastern Front.Good luck.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 47
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 2:39:15 PM
its easy to say, "if I was confronted with absolute evil, I could see it clearly and know what to do." It might be harder to say that when you're 16-18 yrs old, or sometimes younger, as the war got near its end and you're just scared S-less. Even the Church thought the Fascists were better than the godless Communists. And then there's the shades of grey--how many have tried to stop renditions and torture and extra-legal assassinations? how many celebrate loudly Assange and Manning and Snowden as heros?

the shades of grey, are always up for debate. History remains 20-20
 Butterchickenchuck
Joined: 9/18/2015
Msg: 48
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 3:39:28 PM
I see a HUGE difference between the guy who gets sadistic joy in making others suffer and the guy who knows it's wrong but does it reluctantly with a it's them or me survival instinct.


Maybe I should see an optometrist ?
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 49
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History
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 8:27:13 PM
Y'all sound like death is some horror, when you die you die, dying is not the hard part. Living as part of some horrid piece in a puzzle of disgust would be what I couldn't stand. And yes I've been quite close to dying, it's not scary, it's all rather peaceful. Not everyone is afraid to die, not everyone goes along just to stay alive, don't assume.
 matyko
Joined: 5/10/2016
Msg: 50
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/20/2016 8:41:04 PM
I would think that in the 1930s and 40s that anyone serving in a military capacity in ANY country followed orders. Hell, there are Vietnam Vetrans that followed orders, a few massacres come to mind. And yes, not all pointed and shot, some turned away. But for the most part, they all followed orders. Some of the mental battle scars on our Vets today aren't necessarily from bullets or bombs but from the atrocities they witnessed by the home team as well as the enemy.

And yes, living is hard....especially when the brain remembers what the eyes have seen. I think all of us would like to think that we wouldn't follow blindly...but I bet we would if following orders.

Dayna, I would think that dying is peaceful as well. Just a thought, no real experience.
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