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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this w      Home login  
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 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 51
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this weekPage 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Following orders and working the death camps are not equivalents. You join the army and go to Vietnam does not mean most would follow an illegal order to intentionally kill innocent women and children. Most wouldn't.

If somebody pointed a gun to your head and told you to pull the trigger? I wouldnt. You worked the death camps...you wanted to be there. You think ivan the terrible at treblinka was ordered to be terrible?
 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 52
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 5:39:05 AM
John Demjanjuk only wanted to be there to get out of a Nazi pow camp.Mass numbers of prisoners died under the Nazis in the early part of the war,many resorted to cannibalism.

Years back the story was Ivan was clubbed to death shortly after liberation with disfigured pics apparently His.

The Soviets actively pursued sonderkommandos after the war I might add.


VVVV
@matyko below
The sheep.....the sheep are the ones that wish to hand power to the hidden elite.You might not like Trump but what are the chances that you find another man that can do what he has done.Oh wait...Jews in New York are complaining so now Trump is a Nazi? Is that it?


@raisehill below.
So Soviet leadership had nothing to do with creating that atmosphere?Deny;deny,deny....
 matyko
Joined: 5/10/2016
Msg: 53
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 5:42:21 AM
Well, I haven't been in combat. I'm sure the majority posting on here haven't either. So how to we know, truly know, how we would react? If we were 18 or 19 and signed on, we were trained, he'll, being in the armed forces your training never stops. And you follow orders. In a combat situation with bullets and bombs goes off and you just saw your best friend blown up yesterday and your two other buddies just lost their legs, you haven't been home in 9 months, rarely sleep and the food is shyt and you're mentally on the edge....you might just shoot.

Following orders. Some people were sheep back then, more so than now in that we don't blindly follow. Imagine following orders in 1942 , orders given by a man getting more crazy by the day. What about the "inner circle"? More crazy or fear? Sheep. Now we see the "sheep" mentality on occasion, like when a new IPhone is released or a person like Trump gains momentum. Trump scares me, like watching the rise of Hitler. A new product from Apple, sitting on a lawn chair for 24 hours to be the first to buy is fun...corporate greed and our greed in action, but no one gets hurt.

Anyway, 70 odd years later, don't let it happen again. After the next US election, you could have a crazy man have access to the launch codes or he pisses of another crazy man in another country and he starts his own launch codes.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 54
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 5:54:26 AM
What is not being factored in regarding the Holocaust is that the dehumanization of Jews didn't just happen when Hitler came to power. It took many years of social conditioning to get to that point.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 55
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 6:00:41 AM
Because the factors are not justifications for the actions. You don't ask why heydrich was like he was, you just kill him if you can. Besides hitler rose to power in the early thirties, and it was he, goebbels, etc that were very much responsible for the dehumanization.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 56
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 6:24:26 AM
^^^^^If you really want to understand how such atrocities occur you need to understand the social psychology that led up to it. I was always fascinated by why the non Jewish German citizens, in general, appeared to just go along with it and why America didn't do anything sooner. So I took a course in college to understand those very questions. It was very enlightening.

It does not excuse or justify individual behaviors....just explains how given the right or certain set of individual conditions...we are all capable of committing atrocities toward another. Some people have less conditions that must met and some have many, many more before they reach that point.

The potential of both good and evil resides in every person.....exceptions being those that are cognitive and/or physically impaired. Sad....but true.
 Orione7
Joined: 12/22/2014
Msg: 57
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 6:48:41 AM
Mainly because Amerika back then was a very different place, nowhere near as Jew brainwashed like today.
Now its sickening.
Many Amerikans admired the Germans and American companies did business with them, Ford, GM, IBM.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 58
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 7:32:51 AM
Yes, man has proven over and over through the ages of his proclivity for evil. Holocausts are still happening. But if I am a prosecutor and not a social scientist, none of that matters to me. People are held accountable for their actions. Hitler doesn't get a free pass because his father regularly beat him. Ivan the terrible doesn't get a free pass because he couldn't help being terrible given what went on around him.

Take this guy orion. He is a negative 10 on the one to ten scale of looks...that makes him bitter and angry and has turned him into a piece of human waste. But I don't look at him and say... poor guy. He is so ugly his mother probably didn't love him. I just see a piece of human waste and treat him as such. Of course, I'm not a social scientist.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 59
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 7:44:12 AM
I completely understand your perspective, Mr. Raisehill.

But I just find Mr. Orion sad. I suppose because I need to believe that hate is not the hearts' natural state.....for me it is love. :)



 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 60
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 8:38:05 AM
Sociopaths do prefer war zones, where there is no order and they can impose their own, a shiny light amidst the chaos. but, the famous Milgrim experiment:

http://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html

concluded that we are taught from birth to follow authority (it makes us docile children who don't cause problems for our parents), and that can condition us to follow orders we know are bad, so long as they are delivered correctly. As KJ pointed out, in those "Good ol' days" certain politicians want to return us to in order to make our country great, there was a long policy of dehumanizing certain groups (pogroms, KKK, anti immigrant purges, etc). of course, there was a Great Depression and its scarcity going on. And children never talked back to adults who might do bad things.
 Orione7
Joined: 12/22/2014
Msg: 61
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 8:50:43 AM
Glass houses raisey.... As someone with red hair coming from that hole of a state you do, I can see why you would not have a picture.
So a person cant have a fun pic on here... unbelievable...

Or I guess I must just hate you for your freedom huh...
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 62
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 9:28:09 AM
^^^^ Don't know what you are babbling about Orion. IQ, like looks is apparently not one of your big points. Don't blame the Jews. Blame your parents. They produced you. They are responsible. Shoot, you make an isis drone look attractive. :-)
 Orione7
Joined: 12/22/2014
Msg: 63
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 9:33:44 AM
FFS talk about babbling..... anything on point today from you today? or you just wanna try and troll?
I didn't blame anything on the Jews, I simply stated modern America is brainwashed in love with them, more so than other western nations.
And much more than at the time when America joined WW2.

An Isis drone that took you and your gene pool out would be attractive.
Don't talk about looks bloodnut...

Ah but of course the American cultural filters of history have to be the ones put forward. Noone can disagree or offer an alternative viewpoint.... bullies
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 64
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 9:39:27 AM
I'm all for alternative viewpoints . . . but I'm really not interested with what somebody who has an IQ south of 80 has to say about anything. My right of course to respect only the intelligent. But babble on if it makes you feel good. Nobody cares.
 matyko
Joined: 5/10/2016
Msg: 65
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 9:48:42 AM

at matyko below
The sheep.....the sheep are the ones that wish to hand power to the hidden elite.You might not like Trump but what are the chances that you find another man that can do what he has done.Oh wait...Jews in New York are complaining so now Trump is a Nazi? Is that it?



Chinook Darlin, just what has Trump done? He's stirred a hornets nest with words and no action. And if he was elected, he still wouldn't be able to follow through on most of the shyt he's yapping about. He is handing out soothers to crying children and he has no intention or capability of tending to what he has created. We have a big mouth, semi-successful millionaire (billionaire?) who started out with Daddy's money...had it/lost it/had it/lost it, repeat, has bunch of wives (0nly one that was born here), and he's brash, rude and full of shyt. And he scares me.

Back to soldiers and orders - they take orders and I bet 98% follow without much question. And in Hitler's time, he was the saviour..just like calling on Jesus only Jesus was just another fairy tale so Hilter slide in there with his sweet talking salesmanship of "I am the Greatest and you shall follow"...again, we see that now in Trump...blindly following and hanging on every word. I mean really, like the NRA wasn't going to support him...they would support any "from my cold dead hands" idiot yapping at a podium. The NRA are right up there with the KKK for crazy fvckers. JMO, and I'm allowed my opinion.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 66
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:10:32 AM

You might not like Trump but what are the chances that you find another man that can do what he has done


What has Trump done? He took his father's fortune . . invested in New York Realestate, and made money. A monkey could have done the same starting out with the same sort of financial backing investing in New York Real Estate.

The man is an ignorant dummy by almost all standards. He is not a savior. He is a demagogue.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 67
view profile
History
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:21:31 AM
As someone on the negative side of looks, that in no way has made me bitter or cruel or feel the need to lash out, and some quite stunning people are cruel and horrid, using looks to attack is a cheap shot. As for the heart, it's function is not to show emotions or the lack there of, it's simply a pump that keeps your blood flowing. So what you are left with is that some people are followers, some are leaders (either good or bad) and some will risk their lives to save the lives of others. Many people saved the targets of Hitler, and it's not about love or don't love the Jews, it was about people, human targets for depraved monsters, that people wanted to save. Our problem is with terrorists, not religions. I'm no fan of religions, I don't think people should get special treatment because they claim a religion, but in no way do I support killing people or abusing them because they happen to be religious. And again, it wasn't just Jews that Hitler was trying to kill off, he had many psychotic issues.

Why are people comparing Trump to Hitler, because of his use of people's fears to get votes (most politicians do this too) but he's scraped the bottom, he's gone where most people wouldn't want to go, to get votes. He's made statements that should have taken him out of race because they are disgusting, and yet he's found people who want him to destroy others, they would support him even after he makes fun of them, they don't care that he's saying things that would destroy American, they just keep chanting his lines, like lemmings, and he makes fun of them again, and they keep coming & coming, even though what he purposes is ridiculous, bigoted, nasty. They keep backing him. So yes, he gets compared to Hitler, but really it's the people feeding his ego while being thrilled that he wants to hurt so many to gain more votes, it's more his followers that make the comparison seem true.

But this thread is about a Holocaust survivor who was denied the right to testify, and I'm off topic.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 68
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:38:31 AM
Sometimes people (like me) are physically lazy. Sometimes people are lazy thinkers. The determination to divide people into simple catagories (ie "good" and "bad") is lazy thinking. (Which brings up another issue: The concept of cognitive dissonance, which is always missused around here. The ability to tolerate cognitive dissonance is actually a way of getting at truth.) KJ: No one around here is listening. I feel your pain.
 Ouija2025
Joined: 6/11/2014
Msg: 69
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:46:35 AM
Wish people would stop saying " their were just following orders"
People know right from wrong, evil from good.
Personally I think he should have been allowed to testify - but soon all the surviving people will be gone. :(
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 70
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:47:07 AM
Is what the U.S. is currently doing that much different than what previous war leaders have done? The U.S. has been bombing the crap out of countries in the middle east for years, killing thousands (maybe it's a million or more by now), and set up a torture shop in Guantanamo Bay. Which is a worse hell-being gassed to death or being endlessly tortured or being blown up where a body is in a thousand different pieces scattered all over the place? Are the people who are doing the torturing in Guantanamo Bay just following orders?
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 71
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:51:10 AM

using looks to attack is a cheap shot.


Gee sorry to injure your sensitivities. You may want to tell Orion how good looking he is then, and how intelligent. We wouldn't want his poor little feelings hurt now would we.


The determination to divide people into simple catagories (ie "good" and "bad") is lazy thinking. (Which brings up another issue: The concept of cognitive dissonance, which is always missused around here. The ability to tolerate cognitive dissonance is actually a way of getting at truth.) KJ: No one around here is listening. I feel your pain.


Oh wow, defending the poor little misunderstood Nazis killers are we?

What the fuk is wrong you people?
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 72
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 11:50:38 AM
^ I'm not defending anything, my friend. I'm of a belief system that says the only way to keep history from repeating itself is to understand why things happened.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 73
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 12:00:42 PM
^^^And there is plenty of that too . . . , KJ521 took a course on it.

And the fact of the Holocaust must be preserved, and the best way to do that is through the Holocaust museums, documentaries, education to fight the deniers , the court records and testimony, the photographs and eye witnesses giving videotaped accounts before their deaths. . . but your attempting to UNDERSTAND why the Holocaust happened will do NOTHING to stop it from happening again. We must simply recognize that people do evil things and when they do they need to be killed, much like we are doing to terrorists when we find them, rather than trying to understand them.

Or perhaps you suggest we get together with Isis, and other radical islamist extremists like Boko Harem and try to understand them, sing kumbaya with them, and hope that they stop killing those they don't agree with?

Regardless, I am not looking to parse the somewhat evil from the truly evil. The perpetrators of the Holocaust, to the maximum amount possible, needed to be killed or brought to justice. I appreciate Wiesenthal and others who have done the best they could in that arena by hunting those people down and kidnapping people like Adolph Eichman, bringing him to trial in Israel, and hanging him. I love that even 95 year old death camp guards are being prosecuted in 2016. Pity we couldn't get more of them.

Its now of course the end of the line . . . most of them are dead. But when we see groups like Isis . . . . they don't need to be coddled or understood. Kill them whereever they are found.
 Whisky_River
Joined: 12/2/2015
Msg: 74
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 12:29:37 PM
Power and access...I believe has a lot to do with it.
It's a atrocity what happened in the Holocaust....No doubt about it!What people will do to each other and why/how they justify it.
Some people are always looking for someone to follow and lead them....are easily persuaded to go against beliefs and their moral core.
Then it creates a "mob" mentality.....just look at how stupid people are after soccer matches..pfft!

What about JonesTown......Charles Manson....
Did we not have an incident with our own soldiers(American/Canadians}...mocking prisoners not too long back.
Stripping them and making them bark etc....they knew better.
Someone took a video of it and it wasn't too long ago.
I don't know, what I may have done to survive back then...as a prisoner or otherwise....I really can't say!
 matyko
Joined: 5/10/2016
Msg: 75
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 1:00:13 PM
^^^ What would we have done in 1940 to 1945 in Hitler's army...we would have followed orders. None of us would have done anything different at the time. We would have followed.

Mob mentality is right. We see that in many political parties right now. People nattering about women in head scarves as being oppressed when our nuns wear/wore the same outfits, the Hutterite women do as well...cover their heads. Catholics in many countries still cover their heads when entering a church.

History. We learn and we grow and we learn some more and we hope that we never follow in those footsteps again. Knowledge is power but there are mini Hitlers in other countries...that little creepy guy in North Korea is one...Trump could easily be another.
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