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 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 76
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this weekPage 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

^ What would we have done in 1940 to 1945 in Hitler's army...we would have followed orders. None of us would have done anything different at the time. We would have followed.


All due respect, but this is simply wrong. There were plenty who fought against the Hitler Regime from inside the Reich. Some plotted Hitler's assassination, others fought to hide Jews, Gypsies, etc from the Nazi thugs. Some joined a resistance movement rather than "follow orders".

That you may have followed Orders does not mean I would have or anybody else would. It is pretty Brazen to claim that "none of us" would have done anything different at the time. Plenty of people have sacrificed their lives for justice and freedom, in the US and in every other country.

If you participate in a crime against humanity because you are ordered to do so, you may not be as culpable as those who ordered you, but you are still culpable.

And you do know that was the defense at Nuremberg right, and by Eichman in Israel. They were simply following orders and had no choice. Of course Eichman still hung didn't he, although some Nazis did get jail instead of death.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 77
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 1:25:39 PM
Nuremberg defense

The Nuremberg Defense refers to a legal strategy employed by many of the defendants at the Nuremberg war crimes trials seeking to convict Nazi perpetrators of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Second World War. Many of those defendants claimed that they were not guilty of the charges against them as they were "only following orders."

Adolf Eichmann was one of the most prominent Nazis to use this defense at his trial (held in Israel in 1961).
“”I cannot recognize the verdict of guilty. . . . It was my misfortune to become entangled in these atrocities. But these misdeeds did not happen according to my wishes. It was not my wish to slay people. . . . Once again I would stress that I am guilty of having been obedient, having subordinated myself to my official duties and the obligations of war service and my oath of allegiance and my oath of office, and in addition, once the war started, there was also martial law. . . . I did not persecute Jews with avidity and passion. That is what the government did. . . . At that time obedience was demanded, just as in the future it will also be demanded of the subordinate.

The Nuremberg Defense has since become a political and psychological meme. The term is now essentially synonymous with the phrase "I was only following orders", a phrase that has been used in defending accused war criminals for centuries. The phrase can refer to any attempt to deflect personal responsibility for a crime onto institutions like an army or the state. Occasionally, the Nuremberg Defense is referred to as the Eichmann defense.

Article 33 of the Rome Statute, which established the International Criminal Court, allows the Nuremberg defense to relieve an individual of criminal responsibility provided:
The person was under a legal obligation to obey orders of the Government or the superior in question;
The person did not know that the order was unlawful; and
The order was not manifestly unlawful. In other words, you have to pass yourself off as having been ignorant of the law, but even that defense is not tolerated in especially gross cases.
[edit]Principle IV

This principle, one of many drawn up in the run up to the Nuremberg trials, states:
"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
Nuremberg Principle IV was disputed in Canada when Jeremy Hinzman attempted to claim refugeee status there after deserting the US army. Hinzman and his supporters argued that because the war in Iraq may be in breach of international law, it could possibly end with him and other troops being tried for war crimes. Although he was denied refugee status, one Justice presiding over the case stated, in reference to personal responsibility during wartime:
"An individual must be involved at the policy-making level to be culpable for a crime against peace ... the ordinary foot soldier is not expected to make his or her own personal assessment as to the legality of a conflict. Similarly, such an individual cannot be held criminally responsible for fighting in support of an illegal war, assuming that his or her personal war-time conduct is otherwise proper."
This has, however, long been the established rule for questions of the legality of war. A soldier is responsible for just conduct in war, and policy-makers are responsible for the just cause for war. However, if it can be found that policy-makers are pushing or forcing subordinates to act unjustly in war, they can be responsible for that as well. Even soldiers who are fighting in an unjust war must still be treated as legal combatants, and not held responsible for the war itself.
 UtterAmazement
Joined: 5/15/2016
Msg: 78
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 1:28:06 PM
Msg 74...



Agreed. Happens with gang violence every day.

I believe there was an attack in San Francisco in the last day or so where 20-30 (men and women) attacked one person, some reports stated that some of the crowd didn't even know why they were attacking the man.

Having gone into the Marine Corps at 17 I can say the psychological transformation (brain washing) in 120 days was for lack of a better word startling.

There's no doubt in my mind that if they had loaded us (17-18-19 yr olds) up at the end of boot camp and dropped us in another country and said there's the enemy...kill them. I don't know....I'd like to think I'd keep some level of humanity still.

But I digress....I thought of the scene from "Fury" while reading the other posts. After this scene the soldier's regard for human life totally transforms.

I'm certainly not suggesting in any way that the taking of innocent lives is justified. Just a possible example of what transpires in those enviroments.

https://youtu.be/nltUYSlKcEI
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 79
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 1:40:59 PM


I am not the monster that I am made out to be. I am the victim of an error of judgment


Poor guy, hung for an "error of judgment". . . . damn pus*y. Whined like a little baby.

Eichmann’s Final Plea:
Presiding Judge: Adolf Eichmann, you have heard your Counsel’s statement on the penalty. Do you wish to add anything concerning thepenalty which the Court should impose on you for the crimes of which you have been found guilty?

Accused: I have heard the Court’s severe verdict of guilty. I see myself disappointed in my hopes for justice. I cannot recognize the verdict of guilty. I understand the demand for atonement for the crimes which were perpetrated against the Jews. The witnesses’ statements here in the Court made my limbs go numb once again, just as they went numb when once, acting on orders, I had to look at the atrocities. It was my misfortune to become entangled in these atrocities. But these misdeeds did not happen according tomy wishes. It was not my wish to slay people. The guilt for the mass murder is solely that of the political leaders.

I did try to leave my position, to leave for the front, for honest battle. But I was held fast in those dark duties. Once again I would stress that I am guilty of having been obedient,having subordinated myself to my official duties and the obligations of war service and my oath of allegiance and my oath of office, and in addition, once the war started, there was also martial law.

This obedience was not easy. And again, anyone who has to give orders and has to obey orders knows what one can demand of people. I did not persecute Jews with avidity and passion. That is what the government did. Nor could the persecution be carried out other tha nby a government. But I never… I accuse the leaders of abusing my obedience. At that time obedience was demanded, just as in the future it will also be demanded of the subordinate. Obedience is commended as a virtue.

May I therefore ask that consideration be given to the fact that I obeyed, and not whom I obeyed.

I have already said that the top echelons, to which I didnot belong, gave the orders, and they rightly, in my opinion, deserved punishment for the atrocities which were perpetrated on the victims on their orders. But the subordinates are now also victims. I am one of such victims. This cannot be ignored. It is said that I could and should have refused to be obedient. That is a consideration with hindsight. Under the circumstances then prevailing such an attitude was not possible. Nor did anyone behave in this fashion. From my experience I know that the possibility, which was alleged only after the War, of opposing orders is a self-protective fairy tale. An individual could secretly slip away. But I was not one of those who thought that permissible.

It is a major error to believe that I belonged to the fanatics of the persecution of the Jews. In the entire post-War period I have been tormented and incensed that all the guilt has been shifted from my superiors and others onto me. I did not in fact make any statements which could have shown my fanaticism, and no blood guilt lies on me. In this connection the witnesses have told a great falsehood. The Court’s putting together of statements and documents initially makes a very convincing impression, but it is a deceptive one. I shall try to clarify these errors before the next legal instance.

Nobody came to me and remonstrated with me because of my official activities. Even the witness Pastor Grüber does not claim this. He came to me and only wanted relaxations to be granted, without criticizing my official activities themselves. He confirmed here in Court that I did no treject him, but simply stated to him that I had to obtain my superiors’decision, that I myself could not take a decision.

Dr. Lösener, the ministerial director who was referred to in the proceedings, was the expert in charge of Jewish affairs in the Reich Ministry of the Interior. He has died. In his written statement of justification, which has appeared only recently, he admitted that he knew of the atrocities and that he also informed his superiors accordingly. It must be assumed that everyone in the Ministry of the Interior was thus made aware of what was going on. But no one opposed my superiors. Ministerial Director Lösener continued silently in tacit opposition and served his Führer as a well-paid judge in the Reich Administrative Court. That is the form that the courage of one’s convictions takes in the case of a prominent person. In the report he wrote in 1950, Lösener expresses views about me, according to which I am supposed to have been a primary figure in the persecution of the Jews. But these are simply emotional outbursts, without any indication of facts in which these speculations are rooted. The same applies to other witnesses. I was asked by the judges whether I wished to make an admission of guilt, like the Commandant of Auschwitz, Höss, and the Governor General of Poland, Frank. These two had every reason to make such anadmission of guilt: Frank, as the person who gave the orders, admitted his guilt for the orders which he gave, and balked at delegating to inferiors. Höss was the one who actually carried out the mass killings.

My position is different. I never had the power and the responsibility of a giver of orders. I never carried out killings, as Höss did. If I had received the order to carry out these killings, I would not have escaped by using a trumped up pretext; during my interrogation I already stated: Since because of the compulsion exerted by an order there was no way out, I would have put a bullet through my brain in order to solve the conflict between conscience andduty.

The Court believes that my current attitude is a result of being ontrial and is a fabrication. A whole list of items was given which appear toconfirm this. But the contradictions which exist were caused by the fact that,at the beginning of my interrogation by the police, naturally I could not remember details with precision. It was too much, what I had experienced inrecent years. Nor did I resist; this is shown by the police record which isover 3,500 pages long. What I said was the first unrestrained attempt to provide assistance in shedding light on things. Mistakes did occur in this, butI had to be allowed to correct them. After sixteen or twenty years have lapsed,I cannot be reproached with such mistakes, nor should my willingness to providea ssistance be considered as a subterfuge and a lie.

My life’s principle,which I was taught very early on, was to desire and to strive to achieve ethical values. From a particular moment on, however, I was prevented by the State from living according to this principle. I had to switch from the unity of ethics to one of multiple morals. I had to yield to the inversion of values which was prescribed by the State. I had to engage in introspective examination in areas which concern my inner self alone. In this introspective examination I have to ignore my sense of guiltlessness in the legal sense. And I would now ask the Jewish People on a personal level for forgiveness, and I would admit that I am overwhelmed by shame when I think about the evil committed against the Jews andthe acts that were perpetrated against them. But in the light of the reason in gof the Judgment this would probably only be interpreted as hypocrisy.

I am not the monster that I am made out to be. I am the victim of an error of judgment. I was assaulted in Buenos Aires, tied to a bed for a week and thendrugged by injections in my arms and brought to the airport in Buenos Aires;from there I was flown out of Argentina. This can quite obviously only be explained by the fact that I was considered to be the person who was responsible for everything. The reason for this lies in the fact that the National Socialists of the time and others have spread untruths about me. They wanted toe xonerate themselves at my expense, or to create confusion for reasons unknown to me. Oddly enough, some of the press coverage also reproduced the same untrue descriptions in an extremely exaggerated fashion over fifteen years in a most suggestive manner. This is the cause of the false inference. This is the reason why l am here. I thank my Counsel, who has insisted on my rights. I am utterly convinced that I must suffer here for others. I must bear what fate imposes on me.

Presiding Judge: We shall announce the sentence on Friday,the day after tomorrow, at 9 o’clock.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 80
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 1:55:19 PM
So, there's this thing called "trait theory". A "trait" is something that remains relatively consistant in an individual's personality across different circumstances. Only five "traits" have been found. (As an example, extroversion is a trait. Honesty is not a trait, as an individual's level of honesty will vary greatly between circumstances; no one person is found to be more honest than another across circumstances.)

ANYhooo... the experiments conducted after World War II found that, while most people will tend to obey authority in inflicting suffering on others, the people who resisted the most scored lower in the trait called "Agreeableness" (friendly/compassionate vs. analytical/detached). This is often considered a positive trait. Many of you would consider people who score high on this to be "good" people. But at the same time, more "agreeable" people are more likely to obey authority even when it means inflicting suffering. The Nazis who committed the most depraved acts specifically out of obedience would have scored high on "agreeableness". On the flip side, people who do good things specifically out of obedience to authority would also score high on agreeableness. They're the same freaking people.

(According to trait theory, of course. Which was one of the more scientifically verifiable theories to come out of personality psychology.)
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 81
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 2:06:52 PM
LOL ^^^ well perhaps it would not surprise you to know that I am not considered the most agreeable person and likeable person and that I am not well liked on this board . . . which I take as a badge of honor. Of course, I never realized that meant I was less likely to be "obedient" to authority figures . . . but that is good to know. Still, I get eighteen year olds are far more likely to be obedient to authority than old grizzled people like myself. there is a reason the Army wants them so young and impressionable.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 82
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 2:11:59 PM
"I'm not defending anything, my friend. I'm of a belief system that says the only way to keep history from repeating itself is to understand why things happened."


Ms. Baby....you and I are of like minds. It is only by understanding the how and why....and under what social and individual conditions human atrocities occur that can we attempt to prevent future ones from happening. It is why we need to be careful about vilifying whole groups of people. We need to separate beliefs from action. Everyone has a right to believe what they want...but they do not always have the right to act upon them.



And....I also believe....even when following orders....you always have a choice and are still accountable.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 83
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 2:17:35 PM
^ It did occur to me to wonder if you would score low on "agreeableness". In which case you might have been more likely to resist killing Jewish people. (On the other hand, you do seem prone to violence.) And, as you've implied, you're a bit of an ***hole. So are you "good" or "evil"? See how meaningless those terms are when you try to apply them to people?

*At the guy above KJ!

KJ: Of course people have a choice. And can make more informed choices if they understand the mechanisms behind behaviour. Another example of this would be with the bystander phenomenon. I can only hope that maybe being aware of it will help me not succumb to it.

And of course people need to be held accountable. The purpose of punishment is to decrease the chances of an act being repeated in the future. Sometimes it can backfire. From what I've observed, bombing countries, for example, leads to more bombing of countries.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 84
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 2:37:28 PM
There's a poem I heard on the radio 30 years ago. I've been trying to find it on and off ever since. I thought it was called, "He Believed in the Perfectability of Man". It's about Himmler. There's an old adage in fiction that if you want to write a villain, start by creating a hero.

The Germans and the Nazis get all the blame but they had plenty of help from French and Polish and every other countryman.

Then there are cases like Wittgenstein, who in addition to being the top philosopher of the time, was also one of the richest men in Europe. He got out, but in order to save his sisters he had to pay massive money to the people who would use that money to fund the murder of other Jews.
 Whatsamattababy
Joined: 5/3/2016
Msg: 85
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 2:45:27 PM
^ Impecable timing - a blond-haired, blue-eyed scapegoat ;)








In order to maintain the highest quality forums you are restricted to having no more then 2 of the last 10 posts on a thread.
Since 2 of the last 10 posts are yours you can not post to this thread.
 BBEisBack
Joined: 9/16/2015
Msg: 86
view profile
History
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 3:47:02 PM

Posted By:matyko;
The NRA are right up there with the KKK for crazy fvckers. JMO, and I'm allowed my opinion.

OFFS, Really, Really? Yes you're allowed to have an Irrational Opinion.....
If you were honest, You Hoplophic Anti-Gunners, have much more in Common with the KKK & their Irrational Fear of Blacks....
 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 87
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 3:59:18 PM
Raise,this is a whole range of issues that wracked the people of the 20th century.When I was a kid some of my playmates were the children of displaced Europeans.I noted they often had no grandfather,most were fair haired.

Did you know that many people of that time,and anybody here can dispute this,and it was ignorant to lump them altogether.....felt that the Jews had it coming to them?Because of the Soviet Union.They felt that fighting communism enabled them to hunt and destroy Jews.Hitler promoted the theory that Jews would be a fifth column.

You can still find Italian propaganda cards on ebay that depict the Godless commies coming for their innocent women.My own grandmother told me about the Communists, and she was shocked at their behavior and ashamed of what they had done.

As for Trump,who are you going to find that can tell all the powers that be to stuff it.And that has included powerful Jews.Liberal Jews want him to back off on immigration issues,conservative Jews want unconditional support of Israel.How about Israel readmit a million Palestinians?Does that sound good?Americans,as Dee has pointed out,are not coming first.You have many,many people that require their living standards to be raised,endless immigration ends where exactly?

As a final point,and you can find this thread on AHF,Hitler reserved his cruelest punishment for his political detractors.Thousands were hanged or went to the guillotine.The hangings were sometimes preceded by being impaled on a meat hook, waiting on the other side of a curtain while the others met their fate.
 matyko
Joined: 5/10/2016
Msg: 88
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 4:09:06 PM

All due respect, but this is simply wrong. There were plenty who fought against the Hitler Regime from inside the Reich. Some plotted Hitler's assassination, others fought to hide Jews, Gypsies, etc from the Nazi thugs. Some joined a resistance movement rather than "follow orders".


I fully understand that. But my point is that at that time in history, pretty much anyone who joined a military group, any country, followed orders. And if say 95% followed orders without question. That is what basic training is for, Yes Sir. And don't me wrong, I have the upmost respect for those that served or are serving.

And BBE, don't go nuts. I don't want to take your guns away. I know you want one but you don't need one. I have no use for one, never have yet. Do you have an irrational fear of someone killing you? I don't. So yes, I find both the KKK and NRA crowd weird and irrational.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 89
view profile
History
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 8:57:57 PM



Gee sorry to injure your sensitivities. You may want to tell Orion how good looking he is then, and how intelligent. We wouldn't want his poor little feelings hurt now would we.


Yeah that is not at all what I was saying. So what if the man is ugly physically, that's not the point, his comments, his outlook, his treatment of other people, that is ugly, that is the part of him that is the point. Stop twisting words. You didn't injure my sensitivities, what a dumb thing to say.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 90
view profile
History
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/21/2016 10:22:32 PM
Message 18 ...
Hmmmm ... I was merely responding to Message 4.

Toledo, Ohio? Is that where you picked up the thorn in your butt?


It's still an interesting topic.

Indeed ... I wonder who will be on trial in 70 years for what is going on today?


Do you have some sort of issue with seeing these monsters brought to justice ...

Not at all ... and I'd be curious who will qualify as "monsters" in 70 years?


... because it was primarily jews bring killed in the camps...the topic just doesn't matter TO YOU.

Wrong ... I'm against anyone being "killed" by anyone else. Are you?


You are so transparent.

Actually YOU are the transparent one.

You don't care about others being killed ... you're just concerned about "jews being killed".

Crawl out of the septic tank you dwell in and start caring about mankind. It's not just about the "jews" even though its apparent that's all you care about.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 91
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 5:19:56 AM
Godwin!!


We need to separate beliefs from action. Everyone has a right to believe what they want...but they do not always have the right to act upon them.

Miss KJ
People also demand the "right" to live their lives according to their "beliefs", and are "very offended" by anyone who doesn't accept their beliefs, or mocks or questions them.

Their belief is that men and women aren't equal, and women should always be subservient and obedient to men.
Their belief in the "rules" of their "god" demands that 'gays' should be killed, or at least punished/imprisoned.
Homosexuality was illegal here too, until not so long ago. (Based on these "beliefs" too).
They ALL believe that "men can't help raping", it's entirely the woman's fault, for being "too attractive", -and not covering that up, adequately.
Beliefs themselves, cause people to act on those beliefs.

Eg Israel, where people went, to "fight for their beliefs", and the "rights" for those beliefs, to exist.
It's a 'circular' kind of thinking. IMO.

Whatsamattababy
The Milgram experiments were very interesting.
I think there were other experiments, which placed people in groups, where all the other participants were "actors", and they found that people will quickly "fall into step" with what the majority think, even when they really know that to be the incorrect answer. (I'm too lazy to research it)
I wonder if this would also apply to "moral decisions".
Religions exploit "Agreeableness", to their full benefit.

I've always been a bit sceptical of authority, and, despite having been taught "christianity", from an early age, as if everything in it, were somehow, "historical facts", much of it didn't seem to make any sense, to me.
It still doesn't.
And for some reason, uniforms have always made me giggle.
-But that's not a positive "trait" either.
I also think I completely lack the "tribal gene".

Both my parents were "holocaust survivors", my Mum, a former Czech', from Prague, and my Dad from "the-country-formerly-known-as-Jugoslavia", and now, only represented by a guitar-shaped hieroglyph.
"the Holocaust" happened where they lived. They were 'playing on home-ground', as it were.

Neither talked about it too much, much like most people, who lived through it. Just 'snippets', here and there.
My Mum was in 'forced labour' camps, when she came out, other surviving members of her own family didn't recognise her, she was one of those 'walking skeletons', but her dog did.
She told me about how the guards used to "amuse themselves", by putting the potato-peelings, just-outside of an arm's-reach, on the other side of the barbed-wire, and then watching the people, ripping themselves to shreds, by trying to reach it, through the wire.

My Dad once told me a story about how he was sleeping on the ground, outside, in winter, in a German POW camp, and sharing a blanket with another prisoner. The Allies bombed the camp, and a bomb hit the guy sleeping next to him, but didn't explode, (Or he wouldn't have been telling the story) it just went straight through him, and dragged the blanket off my Dad, and into the hole, straight through the man.


My "step-mother", -the woman with whom my Dad spent his last 25 years, after my Mum died, was a 'Berliner', and was there throughout, until the 'fall' of Berlin, and the occupation, by the Russians and Americans, so I've heard some of it, from her perspective too.
I was an angry young man, I could never understand why so many people just 'went along' with the war, and Hitler.
A combination of "crowd behaviour", and conscription, and ignorance.
Wars still make me angry.

It seems to me, that people, like goldfish (allegedly), have very short memories about just how bad wars really are.
It's not until they see the horrible pictures, that they remember our disgusting and appalling histories.
For some people, it's not until they're actually scraping-up the remnants of their own children, that they remember why wars are a really, really bad idea.

The "holocaust" was based on an erroneous beliefs in "race".
It saddens me, that, in an age where we have so much new scientific information, about genes, and their random dispersal, that these erroneous beliefs in "race" still persist.

About the only people who currently still believe that the "jews" are a "race", ( and in "racial supremacy",)
are the "people-who-believe-themselves-to-be-jews", themselves, and various, other sundry loons and "racists".

When "race" fails, there's always "patriotism", and "customs", and "tradition", and "history", and many other "hot-buttons" to be pushed, by various ambitious, self-serving, demagogues.

It's these primitive and "tribal" "beliefs" which have caused wars.
It's the erroneous belief in an "other", which "gives people permission" to treat "other people" appallingly.
It's these beliefs which need challenging IMO.

Back on-topic:
Of course the old guy should have been able to have his "day in court", and say his piece.
He'd waited 70 years to do so. It surely couldn't hurt, to give him 5 minutes.?

JMO
Happy Sunday
 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 92
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 6:22:50 AM
@Jovan
You claimed in the past to have talked to perpetrators of the holocaust.

Sure your dad wasn't Volksdeutche?
German run pow camp in Yugoslavia? Allies bombed the camp?

Prinz Eugen? Remarried to a Berliner?
She would have anything to do with a communist after the fall of Berlin?Try again dude.
 matyko
Joined: 5/10/2016
Msg: 93
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 6:42:23 AM
^^^^ I'm thinking that JoVan, by his age, had parents in their teens during the war. I'm about the same age as JoVan and my father was too young to fight, Dad was 15 when the war ended...he's 86 now. I'm sure JoVan' s parents are about the same....teens or barely teens during the war. Children, teenagers, young adults in camps...you're going to question this?

I found his post interesting, I read it twice. I sat beside a man on a plane last year and he took off his jacket and has old, faded numbers/letter tattoo'd on his arm. I see guys walking around here with tribals tats, animals..all fierce looking and trying to be bad ass. Numbers/letters on an old arm, humbling. Numbers/ letters from 70+ years ago...so if JoVan tells a story, who the fvck am I to challenge it. He has spoken of this before. Do you have a story?
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 94
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 6:49:18 AM
In the USA

Relevance, in the common law of evidence, is the tendency of a given item of evidence to prove or disprove one of the legal elements of the case, or to have probative value to make one of the elements of the case likelier or not. Probative is a term used in law to signify "tending to prove."[1] Probative evidence "seeks the truth". Generally in law, evidence that is not probative (doesn't tend to prove the proposition for which it is proffered) is inadmissible and the rules of evidence permit it to be excluded from a proceeding or stricken from the record "if objected to by opposing counsel."[1] A balancing test may come in to the picture if the value of the evidence needs to be weighed versus its prejudicial nature.

In Germany

German judges take evidence only on disputed issues of material fact. Judges do not waste time with evidence that they do not need for their decisions -- i.e., evidence that does not contribute to resolving a disputed material issue. For issues that are material and in dispute, parties may ask the court to take evidence. Judges rule on these requests in written orders, in which they determine specific issues on which evidence may be taken from particular witnesses. They take evidence only in court. Judges are subject to a statutory duty of clarification which requires that they not decide material issues adversely without making parties aware that they need to offer evidence or otherwise contest the particular point.

""""On Friday, presiding judge Anke Grudda said: ‘No further evidence is needed. The court has no doubts on this aspect.’""""
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 95
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 6:49:59 AM
And a very happy Sunday to you, Mr. Jovan.

"Beliefs themselves, cause people to act on those beliefs.'

Not always.

For instance......I believe all snakes should disappear from Earth....yet.....just this morning I let one of those evil creatures slither right off my lanai and to live it's little life. Why?

Okay.....I'll tell you. :)

Probably because I also believe I shouldn't kill God's creatures just because I hate them. See how you can hold more than one and even conflicting beliefs? We have some amazing brains! Even ones that aren't the sharpest.....like mine! :D


Now.....I won't lie and say I didn't want to chop that vile thing in half....and that I am secretly hoping the lawnmower takes care of it for me. I am only human. ;)

So.....even though you and I hold some beliefs that differ regarding religion....I stand by your right and mine to believe them and express them. I have no worries that your actions will harm me, Express those beliefs to your heart's content. :D
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 96
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 7:17:04 AM
"On the other hand, you do seem prone to violence.) And, as you've implied, you're a bit of an ***hole."

I never suggested I am prone to violence, although I would fight back rather than succumb to evil, nor do I consider myself an a hole. I consider myself disagreeable because I tend to not concern myself with being agreeable to people I consider aholes.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 97
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 7:31:10 AM
Jovan, personally I think you are full of shat. You set up these strawman arguments, make all kinds of assumptions about what people believe, why they believe it and how they then behave. You lazily make no efforts to delve deeper for the actual reasons or the actual truth. And you simply reject everything you disagree with as being illogical or untrue.

The world is not black and white as you see it. Your assumptions and generalizations are often incorrect as are your conclusions. You need to learn to think much deeper than you do to find real truths. Shallow thinking will get you nowhere.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 98
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 7:38:55 AM
Dee, did you get that from wiki? It's not that the guys testimony, which could have taken 30 minutes of the courts time..big deal, was irrelevant, non-probative or non-material, it was simply considered cumulative and redundant and thus not necessary. The court had heard enough and was already convinced by the great weight of the evidence. Still, it would have been decent of the court to give this guy time to speak..given what he had lived through and had taken his time to fly internationally to get there.
 raisehill
Joined: 5/2/2016
Msg: 99
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 9:29:40 AM
"Did you know that many people of that time,and anybody here can dispute this,and it was ignorant to lump them altogether.....felt that the Jews had it coming to them?Because of the Soviet Union.They felt that fighting communism enabled them to hunt and destroy Jews.Hitler promoted the theory that Jews would be a fifth column."

That is where groups like the Américan Civil Liberties Union and the Anti Defamation League come in .. Get the truth out, educate, litigate with these people...but who is more reviled than the ACLU? Social Science will never solve these problems. Only taking up arms and defending yourself is the ultimate solution.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 100
Holocaust survivor denied right to testify at nazi guard trial this week
Posted: 5/22/2016 9:33:16 AM
chinook1111
@Jovan
You claimed in the past to have talked to perpetrators of the holocaust.

I doubt I used that term, but I have talked to former Germans from that period. Eg My late Dad's partner.(Still living)
We also had other "friends of the family", growing up, where the father was a former German soldier, and the mother an Austrian woman. (We had no 'immediate' family here, back then, these people were referred to, by us, as "uncles" and "aunts", despite their origins, my parents considered them their "family"; "brothers" and "sisters".)
I talked to them a little, about the war, but like most, from either 'side', they didn't like to talk about it. I think the memories were just too painful. They'd rather try to forget.


Sure your dad wasn't Volksdeutche?
German run pow camp in Yugoslavia? Allies bombed the camp?

Yes, I'm quite sure. I've been to where my Dad came from, and met my relatives there (1968 & 1988)

I think the POW camp might have been in Bulgaria actually. But yes, the allies bombed it. Such things were commonplace. I don't know if it was an "accident", or deliberate. It makes no difference.

Prinz Eugen? Remarried to a Berliner?
She would have anything to do with a communist after the fall of Berlin?Try again dude.

I don't know what you're talking about here, or where you got it from, -certainly NOT from anything I've posted.

My late Dad and his German partner never got married, - she would have lost her widow's pension if they had.
Her late husband was a close friend of my Dad, they'd grown up in the same village, gone to school together, and both settled in England, after the war.
Her husband had missed my Mum's funeral, in 1978, because he'd been in a serious car accident. He died about a year later. She was alone, with children all grown-up, and so was my Dad.
So they sold both their houses, and bought a single one, together.
I remember him actually asking me, for my "blessing", NOT to get married.
-Like he needed my "permission".
It was a big deal to their generation.
I think they made each other very happy. I think he was much happier than I'd remembered him ever being, with my Mum.
She's still a very lovely lady.
The point I was really making, was that Germans really weren't ALL the monsters, that the war propaganda led us to believe.
-Just regular people, with some very stupid "beliefs" about "race".
We still see similar stupidity about it, displayed often, here.

Great maths there matyko!!
You're dead right. My Dad was 85 when he died in 2007, my Mum was born the same year, 1922.
They both would have been about 17, in 1939, when the war started, formerly, but much, much older than that, by the time it finished, in 1945..
There was no such thing as a diagnosis of "PTSD", back then, but I think they both suffered from a form of it, especially my Mum.
There are no real "winners" of wars.
JMO


Jovan, personally I think you are full of shat. You set up these strawman arguments,

Which "strawman arguments", exactly?


make all kinds of assumptions about what people believe, why they believe it and how they then behave.

I don't have to make any "assumptions", it's all written down, it's all well-documented.
I know exactly what they believe.
They believe in it, because it's written down,
and it tells them to believe in it, and how to behave.
There's no mystery, and no need for any assumptions.

You lazily make no efforts to delve deeper for the actual reasons or the actual truth.

People believed a lot of dumb shit, in the past. The further back you go, the dumber it gets.
But yeah. I'm lazy. Well, I've been at work all week, and it's sunday.

And you simply reject everything you disagree with as being illogical or untrue.

Yes, I reject things which are untrue, and/or illogical, because they're untrue and/or illogical.
Sue me.


The world is not black and white as you see it.

Erm.... I don't "see it" that way, and never did.

Your assumptions and generalizations are often incorrect as are your conclusions.

Which "assumptions"?
Which "conclusions"?
Be specific.
De-generalise.

You need to learn to think much deeper than you do to find real truths.

I'm always trying to learn new stuff, but I prefer evidence-based "truths". As much as we know so far, anyhow.
-Not just what someone said.

Shallow thinking will get you nowhere.

I'm not trying to get....... anywhere.
It's either JMO, or I cite my sources, unlike some.

I 'get' that my total disrespect for all religions, angers some people.
Are you going to issue another 'fatwah'?

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