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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > 20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack      Home login  
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 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 226
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attackPage 10 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)
But we do know.

The man said why he was doing it.

If it was a Christian saying that he was doing it in the name of Christ, there would not be these machinations to make it more about everything except Christianity.

Even muslims accept that it was about Islam.

I don't understand why people refuse to accept that.

The deniers are coming around, though

At first they argued that it had nothing to do with Islam.

Now they are saying, "Well, it's not the one thing, it's complicated."

They will never concede but they are headed in the right direction, at least.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 227
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 8:57:06 AM
Ya know, when I first posted that the killer was a regular at that club, you posted that this was your first thought when you heard about it. Then your Imams weighed in. And they told you what to think.
 Justthefactsmamm
Joined: 6/16/2016
Msg: 228
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 10:40:44 AM

Ya know, when I first posted that the killer was a regular at that club, you posted that this was your first thought when you heard about it. Then your Imams weighed in. And they told you what to think.


Actually she didn't. She was being facetious regarding your quoted post.

Not surprisingly these gay app companies can't seem to find a record for this guy. Now there are even media reports that pics of his genitals are on the gay sites? I would think at this point the FBI would have accessed his phone and computer and verified these claims. Maybe they're waiting for verification with actual facts as strange as that may be. So far all that seems available are he said she said, innuendos and speculation.

Interesting though that he was suspended in high school for celebrating and cheering the 9-11 attacks. I'm guessing that his "lone wolf" radicalization began at home regardless of his presumed sexual orientation and self hate.
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 229
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 11:09:49 AM

So far all that seems available are he said she said, innuendos and speculation.


Exactly.

None of us here are privy to much other than what is fed to us. And then some will decide to call them "facts". Facts that are given to us. Not everything. Just enough. Media, it's a funny thing isn't it????

Is there an actual link to listen to this 911 call that we can listen to you, with the shooter telling us all why he was going to do what he did? Or, are we letting someone tell us what he said?

I still believe, though I haven't been told this, that basically this guy was phucking nut bar. As some have mentioned, no one in sound mind goes around shooting anybody, especially in masses. Doesn't really matter the reason, though it definitely matters to some here, the victims are dead, and the families and friends are dealing with these instant, and unexplained losses.
 Justthefactsmamm
Joined: 6/16/2016
Msg: 230
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 11:37:57 AM

Is there an actual link to listen to this 911 call that we can listen to you, with the shooter telling us all why he was going to do what he did? Or, are we letting someone tell us what he said?


Seems you'll get one tomorrow. 

http://pix11.com/2016/06/19/authorities-to-release-limited-transcripts-of-calls-with-orlando-shooter/
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 231
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History
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 12:28:30 PM
The majority of the liberals who can't understand simple logic? Don't you think that is also an opinion held by many on all sides?
 Sweet_Danimal
Joined: 10/31/2015
Msg: 232
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History
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 2:26:47 PM
I think it's hilarious that people want to take the words of a gunman in the middle of a murderous rampage as factual proof of his involvement in a terrorist organization. The guy could say or claim anything he wanted - doesn't remotely mean it was true.

What if I stormed into Lambeau Field with a semi-auto assault weapon wearing a Vikings jersey and claiming I'm killing in the name of all things Purple? What 'organization' am I part of? Did the Minnesota Vikings supply me with an assault rifle?!? Since I own about 12 Prince music albums, all stashed in the back of my garage, all on Cassette tape, that haven't been played in 10+ years --- maybe HE was part of some 'Jihad' and his death was a signal to strike?

Evidence is found by following leads - not by listening to transcripts and jumping to conclusions. It's one piece of evidence out of a few thousand parts of a rather large puzzle. The transcripts is this dude's alibi for being a nut job, not a reason for it.

Hans Gruber in the movie 'Die Hard' claimed on the police radio to be a terrorist organization, not a group of highly-motivated robbers trying to get a lot of money. What if that was true to life? Would we STILL be claiming it as a religious jihad 30 years later? I would think eventually, when all leads are followed through, the truth would have been discovered. SOMEthing would have been done to prevent just anyone with a fake driver's license from getting surface-to-air missiles, for crying out loud. Oh, wait, - we would have known immediately it wasn't terrorists --- they were mostly Caucasian and European. That kind of group can't be Muslim terrorists - can they?

Get. Real. People are dead because ONE guy pulled the trigger, not because an entire company or country or religion hates gays or Americans. There needs to be EVIDENCE of a conspiracy to treat it as such, not because we WANT it to be.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 233
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History
50 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 2:51:06 PM
The victim who lived in my neighborhood (not to be confused with the one who was my second best friend’s high school classmate) was buried yesterday -- I live a couple minutes from the funeral home where they sent his body and ran into his massive funeral procession. That’s some truly close-to-home stuff right there.

To the delight of Dee, AJ and Jim, Trump is now doubling down on Muslim profiling:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-muslim-profiling-000000496.html

Let’s just say for a second that Mateen is a true “radical Islamic terrorist” just by virtue of him being a Muslim. He’s also the top mass shooter of all time. If you look at the rest of the top 20 mass shooters in American history, there are only two others that were Muslim: San Bernardino and Hasan at Ft. Hood. The others, with the exception of Aaron Alexis (black), were all white. In fact, there are almost no other Muslims among the top 100 mass shooters of all time. Since over 95% of mass shooters are white non-Muslims, why aren’t we talking about profiling white non-Muslims to prevent more of these from happening?

If Mateen, Farook & wife, Hasan and the Boston bombers all indeed are true “radical Islamic terrorists,” then since 9/11, America has had exactly 4 groups of radical Islamic terrorists actually kill someone. But during that 15 year period, we’ve had dozens of white non-Muslims kill at least as many people as the Tsarnaev brothers. So again, why aren’t we talking about profiling white non-Muslims to prevent more of these from happening?

I would like to point out one other thing in this article: the NRA actually runs to the left of Donald Trump. THAT BLOWS MY MIND:

“‘If you had somebody with a gun strapped on to their hip, somebody with a gun strapped on to their ankle, and you had bullets going in the opposite direction, right at this animal who did this, you would have had a very, very different result,’ Trump said. But in a separate interview with ‘Face the Nation,’ National Rifle Association executive vice president Wayne LaPierre said he wouldn’t want clubgoers armed. ‘I don’t think there should be firearms where people are drinking,’ LaPierre said.”

OH... MY... GOD… That may be the first sane thing Wayne LaPierre has EVER said. That someone would say something more sane than Trump wouldn’t be news, except if it comes from an NRA leader. So that’s where the NRA draws the line: it’s okay for terrorists to have guns, but not drunk people!

“There is a group on here that hates Blondie on general principal,I.e., no valid reason. They think that it is fun to delete her, no matter what she posts.”

If they were 100% successful about it, this thread wouldn’t still exist.

“And as terrorism is increasing around the world, Christians are being increasingly persecuted.”

As I pointed out previously, Christians make up 70% of the U.S. population. I’m not saying it’s impossible for a minority to persecute a majority (see: deep South post-Reconstruction, Apartheid-era South Africa), but it is extremely rare, and most of your complaining seems to be that America is not a Christian theocracy. The "MSM" can't persecute anybody -- the government can, and you'd be hard pressed to find an American state government persecuting Christians. Christian-led state governments persecuting other people is another story (just look at all the gymnastics Florida and other states' government leaders are having to do after vilifying gays up until Orlando).

“As far as this being a hate crime against homosexuals, there's the possibility that the killer had those tendencies himself. That could muddy the waters a bit.”

Yeah, but, it muddies the waters against your “100% radical Islamic terrorist” thinking. So, yeah, I agree with you there!

“Soft, Omar was a terrible person, who happened to be a Muslim, who happened to be a radical terrorist. He isn't grouped into all Muslims. Hope that helps. Now to go further, if a Christian person does the same thing as Omar, said person would be a radical christian terrorist. does not mean that all Christians are terrorist. or radical.”

Yeah, I agree with Dayna – why didn’t you just stop there? Some people keep trying to call Orlando “our Paris,” but Paris was actually a very complex terrorist organization cell involving dozens of people (most of them recent immigrants or visitors) spread out over several countries, including, yes, the Islamic State. Orlando involved one psychologically disturbed American citizen filled with a lot of anger toward a lot of different people for whom there is no evidence that he had ISIS connections – inspired by them, sure, but a Paris-like plot? Hardly. That said, Paris should have been easier to stop than Orlando, simply for the reason that there were so many cooks in the kitchen for the former and so many points where information exchanges could have been captured by law enforcement. There is very little that could be done to prevent another Mateen from a government point-of-view. Some keep claiming the FBI dropped the ball, but this American-born citizen was brought to their attention for a year, ending 4 years ago. Just how long can LEO keep following around every Tom, Richard and Omar that briefly says something controversial and then does nothing suspicious for years? This is the primary problem with Trump’s profiling stance (beyond its questionable constitutionality): there are 2.6 million Muslims in the U.S. vs. 760,000 state/local law enforcement officers and 35,000 FBI employees (not all of which are agents) – and most of them have other things to do besides just Muslim surveillance. And where do you think most LEO/FBI agents get most of their “radical Islamic terrorist” tips from? Non-radical Muslims. And what do you think is going to start happening when LEO starts profiling and tracking and harassing all the innocent non-radical Muslims? Same thing that happened with black people when the LEO did that to them that led to the very problematic "no snitch" culture. I have never been arrested or any trouble with the police in my life, yet I have a very strong disdain for them, not just because of what I see them do to some other innocent black people but because of the profiling they've actually done to me. You think you've got problems with the 4 supposed radical Islamic terrorists we've had over the past 15 years, you wait until we've gone "Full Muslim" and you're going to Chicagos and Baltimores all over Muslim America.

“To deny that it is open season on Christianity while ‘phobic, racist or anit-semitic’ to say anything about Muslims and Jews is to live in a false reality.”

Isn’t that victim mentality?

“Some people will freak but China has strict controls on Internet traffic. Jihadist or KKK sites could be blocked. Slippery slope of course.”

Yeah, I would think that a person who believes that it’s a “slippery slope” for the 2nd amendment to make it illegal for terrorists to buy guns would probably also believe that strict controls on internet traffic is a “slippery slope” for the 1st amendment... unless, of course, you’re one of the many 2nd amendment supporters who doesn’t give a damn about the 1st.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 234
50 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 3:56:45 PM
"why aren’t we talking about profiling white non-Muslims to prevent more of these from happening?"

Because we already are profiling them? What do you think the FBI's BAU does?
 Justthefactsmamm
Joined: 6/16/2016
Msg: 235
50 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 4:40:45 PM

I think it's hilarious that people want to take the words of a gunman in the middle of a murderous rampage as factual proof of his involvement in a terrorist organization.


What's hilarious is that you would take anybody else's word when the only person who without speculation could refute it, is dead. Especially since it appears he never said he was involved in or a member of a terrorist organization but rather solidarity for a perceived cause. Exactly who said he was "part" of a terrorist organization?

He pledged alligence to a ISIS commander and brotherhood with others which I'll take as fact since the FBI's Terrorism unit was on the scene in Orlando that morning as I can guarantee Orlando PD called them at the first mention of terrorist groups. (Which probably accounted for some of that 3 hr delay and increased the chances that explosives were a possibility) The 911 tapes will reiterate that as did the attorney general's statements today.


Evidence is found by following leads - not by listening to transcripts


Which in a indirect way has been my point the entire time. If you can't prove it in court it doesn't matter what you think or what you feel or what anyone says. The available evidence speaks for itself, not feelings, speculation and heresay. The only definitive proof to date of any motive are the "tapes and calls". Exactly what "evidence" do you think will be discovered that will make his statements a moot point? Without a living defendant to reveal any other motive there is none that will supercede what's implied by his own words, certainly none that would be allowed in court that would presume a deceased individuals reasons contradictory to what's in essence a dying declaration on his part. At least in the courts I've tried cases in but maybe that works in your court of public opinion.

Let's make this clear.. I don't care what this guy's motive was. He was a mass murderer. I'm only looking at it from investigative standpoint with what's available as of that night. If they find a journal or video indicating another motive that's fine, I dont care as it doesnt make it any less heinous. I'll say again, as it stands you could have 10K people say he was gay but it won't make any difference.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 236
49 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 6:03:48 PM
so, we listen to a crazed man claim alliances to every group he can think of, groups fighting each other in Syria (which suggests he doesn't know what he's talking about, just wants to be part of something bigger than him, more macho), but we don't dare listen to a flock of people who claim, "oh, we've seen him in gay-friendly arenas". That would be cherry picking our facts. We can't be allowed to compare the violence of the Catholic church (Crusades, Spanish Inquition, hiding pedophiles) to the violence of the Muslim faith. Christians are being persecuted by a group that, um, persecutes everyone. guess they aren't singling anyone out, after all. but then, hey, Catholics and Protestants have gone to war with each other, and i'm not just talking about Northern Ireland, Catholic immigrants coming to WASP America weren't welcomed as brothers back in the 1890's-1900's.

A left leaning media? why did they bother to sell WMD's in Iraq, then? They target Christianity? they probably target the Kardashians just as much. if the media isn't white, nor Christian, then what are they? Jewish? As for the left wanting a separation of Church and State as the Founding Fathers proposed, one should take a good look at the Libertarian wing of the GOP--they don't want government enforcing morality, either.

I don't imagine why we need to call Orlando "our Paris" so we can feel a solidarity of hurtfullness. We had 9/11, that was bad enough. That's a club no one wants to be a member of.
 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 237
49 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/19/2016 6:29:00 PM
@gto
How quickly people forget how shocking 911 was.Everybody remembers where they were.

They sold WMD'S because no powerful Arab state is wanted in the ME.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 238
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 4:17:15 AM
Loretta Lynch, AG, said that they are releasing the recordings and a transcript but are REDACTING his pledges to ISIS.
because they "don't want to spread the propaganda." (i.e, pretend that they didn't happen)

Yes,of course. They need to concentrate on their own propaganda.

Ha!

Enough said.
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 239
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 5:45:53 AM

Loretta Lynch, AG, said that they are releasing the recordings and a transcript but are REDACTING his pledges to ISIS.
because they "don't want to spread the propaganda." (i.e, pretend that they didn't happen)

Yes,of course. They need to concentrate on their own propaganda.

Ha!

Enough said.


You do understand that this, and other things , are things that are wrong with our North American society, and it's members, correct? We have an endless amount of "information" tossed at us, or not, and we, as a society react, rightly or wrongly to this (mis)information. So, in fact, if what you state is true, we have someone who "supposedly" pledged to ISIS, and have a recordings of such but, we are only getting told about it, no confirmation without hearing or reading transcripts ourselves, because of what reason???????? Ask yourself, BEFORE using this guy's supposed "pledge" to the purple monster that has USA in it's sights, as a reason to act out in fear.

Was this "pledge" weak at best when you actually hear it? Where the words said, not all the trustworthy? What is the problem? We were told, but, we are not allowed to hear?????? It's kinda like listening to a story be told around the campfire, and then in the morning, being told it was just a tale to put a little fright into the kids heads before bedtime.

So, basically, we are back to where we started. We have possibilities but, still nothing. But, let's all be afraid of those possibilities!!!!!! Cause, you know, he could have made that pledge. And he could have been serious. And the words he expressed could have had some value.

I don't even know how some of you can even get out of bed in the morning to face another day.
 deetristate
Joined: 12/4/2014
Msg: 240
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 5:57:20 AM
Exactly!

(I love the use of sarcasm, by the way.)
People are convicted due to their words on recordings every day. If he had survived, they would use those same recorded words to convict him of terrorism as opposed to being a nut job.

Exactly. If they have already told us that he made a pledge to ISIS ad nauseum, why not let us hear it? Because people can use conjecture and words like "supposedly."
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 241
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 6:21:00 AM
You got told of the boogie man but, they won't let you see it.

Yet, you still believe in the boogie man??????

They tell you just enough to put the fear of God, or ISIS, or whatever/whomever else is the enemy of the month into your heads, and you believe it all, every freaking time.
 HawkingJr
Joined: 4/16/2007
Msg: 242
view profile
History
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 6:28:08 AM
“So far all that seems available are he said she said, innuendos and speculation”

As we await the release of the 911 transcripts, I do find it interesting that so far I haven’t read or heard any eye witness testimony or information from his calls in which he said anything AT ALL about his chosen target. Why didn’t he say to any of the survivors anything about their sexual orientation while he was condemning America and pledging to ISIS? He singled out blacks as people he had nothing against: “I don’t have a problem with black people. This is about my country. You guys suffered enough.” Yet no minority today suffers more than homosexuals but he had nothing to say about them one way or the other (at least not that I’ve heard) despite being in a gay nightclub.

And why would a radical Islamic terrorist choose a gay nightclub out of all possible targets? Compare him to the other successful supposed radical Islamic terrorists:

*Hasan & Abdulazeez shot up military bases. This is about as logical as it gets for a radical Islamic terrorist: go after the people who are actually directly killing your people. Hasan was also at his workplace (see Farook below).

*Tsarnaev brothers bombed a very American, very well-known, public event with many possible highly sympathetic victims. Very logical – this will get you tons of press and Islamic terrorist adulation.

*Farook shot up his workplace where he had at least one beef with a co-worker. Rather unusual among radical Islamic terrorists but EXTREMELY common among mass murderers (“going postal”!).

And then we get to Mateen:

*Shot up a gay nightclub. He didn’t work there. There is no military connection. Patrons among the most unsympathetic possible (not according to my personal philosophy) – if he was indeed also casing Disney, why the heck wouldn’t he choose Disney over a gay nightclub? Apparently said nothing about hatred of clientele during his rampage or much of anything at all about gays prior to rampage except his father’s claim that he was recently disgusted by two men kissing in front of his child.

So why would any radical Islamic terrorist, much less this one, bother targeting a gay nightclub when there are much more high profile and more meaningful targets? This doesn’t strike any of you “100% radical Islamic terrorist” people as being odd?

“Let's make this clear.. I don't care what this guy's motive was.”

Obviously you care or else you wouldn’t be fighting every possible motive except for him being 100% a radical Islamic terrorist. His motive obviously matters beyond just what I previously said about us being able to prevent more mass murders from happening by learning from it. The country’s reaction to the incident hinges on his motives. The political direction our country goes in hinges on his motives. What other recent mass murders besides the ones listed in this post have led to politicians suggest we round up a specific ethnic or religious group, profile them, harass them, treat them as second class citizens? The difference between Mateen being a radical Islamic terrorist connected to ISIS and just another psychologically unstable American mass murderer is substantial to U.S. policy in regards to Muslims, immigration and military strategy. Usually when there is a mass murder, the only discussion is about gun control and mental health. The perpetrator being Muslim changes everything. The motive does matter.

By the way, your new incarnation seems interestingly more... articulate.

“Because we already are profiling them? What do you think the FBI's BAU does?”

The Behavioral Analysis Unit does not profile white people specifically – not in the way the NYPD Demographics Unit specifically profiled Muslims.
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 243
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 7:05:54 AM
"The Behavioral Analysis Unit does not profile white people specifically – not in the way the NYPD Demographics Unit specifically profiled Muslims."


Are you sure about Mr. Hawking? :)
 chinook1111
Joined: 4/1/2016
Msg: 244
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 7:24:09 AM
@Hawking
So not 100% terrorist,maybe just 95 or 90%?

@ Walts
Dude,you could almost have a regular skit on SNL.
 Justthefactsmamm
Joined: 6/16/2016
Msg: 245
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 8:32:14 AM

Obviously you care or else you wouldn’t be fighting every possible motive except for him being 100% a radical Islamic terrorist.


I've never said he was 100% anything except a mass murderer. Sounds like your accusation on my bashing Clinton. You can't quote the first one. But your reason for even suggesting it is blatantly obvious.

The feds felt he was cognizant enough to label him a self radicalized ISIS inspired terrorist. Go argue with them.

I understand what your position and bias is now so your continuing to paint with your broad brush isn't surprising nor unexpected.

If you can refute my statements regarding the applicability of him being seen in gay-arenas as a precursor to anything but speculation please do so.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 246
20 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 9:27:21 AM
If the guy was some kind of radical Islamic terrorist, why would he have gotten married and had a kid in the U.S. if he was so against the U.S? His kid would be a U.S. citizen as well-just like the father who was born and raised in America. If a white mass murderer was brought up in a home with a Catholic upbringing, does everybody automatically jump to the conclusion that the purpose of the mass killings was to eliminate non-Catholics?
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 247
49 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 9:59:13 AM
according to the Orlando PD, they held off storming in b/c during the 9-1-1 call, the jerkoff said he had explosive vests for him and the hostages. Did they find him to be telling the truth? I guess we'll get some clarity when the tapes are released. well, some of us.

one thing's for certain, we'll forget about this in a week until the next shooting, as we always do. when all is said and done, more will be said than done.
 memtoo
Joined: 6/2/2016
Msg: 248
49 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 10:01:29 AM
Can somebody explain to me why it matters what the motivation of this guy was?
 kj521
Joined: 9/20/2015
Msg: 249
49 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 10:09:55 AM
^^^^^Why does motive matter in any terrorist attack? Or any crime for that matter?
 memtoo
Joined: 6/2/2016
Msg: 250
49 feared dead after Florida nightclub terror attack
Posted: 6/20/2016 10:24:00 AM
^^^^^^^ Motive doesn't matter other than to prove guilt or sometimes intent. Murder is a crime regardless of motive.
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